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Surtur wrote:Thunderhawks themselves are more durable and better armed than lightnings. Big guns don't mean as much when you have to fight little things buzzing around you. As soon as the SM begin boarding, the Navy is hosed.

A lot of arguments fixate on the numbers and don't factor logistics or tactics. You cannot surround 1 person with a billion and expect maximum fighting capabilities. The more guard you pack into one spot, the worse they would be able to fight.

If the guard and the SM were to fight it out, guard would route. Ravenguard would be destroying their artillery, Imperial Fists would have an unbreakable line, White Scars would be riding through taking out commanders, Ultramarines would be changing tactics continually throwing enemy commanders off, Iron Hands would have the field dominated in tank warfare, Salamanders would be putting the finest tech to it's best use clearing tanks and troops, Blood Angels would be in the thick of it ripping people apart, Dark Angels would be in several different forces of fast vehicles, troops and termies, and Space Wolves would be having a ball. And these are just the founding chapters. Not to mention all of the ways marines can engage an enemy, with bikes, drop pods and transports. For espionage they can employ scouts. Marines also have artillery to clear swaths of troops. Between their weaponry, tactics and stature, it's highly likely that the guard would mass panic and run.

-You seem to not realise that despite the thunderhawks being better armed than lightnings and such, one thunderhawk is still not going to survive a fight with the thousands or so lightnings they would be fighting, seeing as the guard have many more of them.
-Yes, surrounded by a billion people, a space marine would rack up a large body count because of maneuverability, but still, no matter how skilled he is, 1 billion guys has the power to crush him with body weight, let alone stabbing with bayonets or shooting with lasguns.
-Again, as skilled as space marines are, the guard will still wipe them. If you want to go on about logistics (bombing supply lines, etc.), the guard can also do that with their navy, destroying every space marine vessel, cutting off their supply lines.

The argument for "guard outnumber the space marines" will continue to be used because the space marines have nothing to counter that. 1,000,000,000,000,000 guardsmen will win against 1,000,000 space marines, hands down, every time. The only variable is how long the astartes can hold off and how many guard they can take down with them.

Kaldor wrote:

Nah, weight of numbers of means the Marines get hosed in a straight up fight. They'd need to find a way to sabotage/infiltrate the Navy and cripple it, then just let the IG starve. A billion men require three billion meals and 25 billion litres of water every day. Even a slight disruption to supply convoys is going to be disastrous to the IG.

But how are they going to do that? The Imperial Navy would have more than enough strength to ensure a passable amount of supplies got through, as well as going on the offensive at the front.

However, any fighting in space is done by machines and ships, which puts the Navy and the Astartes on a roughly even footing. The Marines would need to find a way to take the Navy out; sabotaging port facilities, infiltrating boarding parties onto their ships, etc. In a straight up battle they'd only give as good as they got, and thats not good enough when the odds are stacked so heavily in their favour.

Again, Astartes aren't possibly going to do anything in the way of sabotage (especially since Astarte ships are pretty damn obvious in design) that is going to make a sizeable dent in the forces of the Imperial Navy.

Does anyone have any figures on the rostered strength of a sector Navy fleet?

Like the Imperial Guard, almost impossible to calculate with any degree of certainty. I believe BFG has an example of one in Battlefleet Gothic, but a battlefleet is only the fraction of the strength of a sector fleet.

Hazardous Harry wrote:
But how are they going to do that? The Imperial Navy would have more than enough strength to ensure a passable amount of supplies got through, as well as going on the offensive at the front.

Rather a moot point, since the Imperial Navy and the Imperial Guard are two separate entities and the posed hypothetical is Imperial Guard vs. Space marines. The Imperial Navy is as removed from the Imperial Guard as the Inquisition or Adeptus Mechanicus are from both the Space Marines and Imperial Guard. In this type of hypothetical if you don't impose the strict separations than it becomes justifiable to include almost anything in the Imperial arsenal.

aka_mythos wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:
But how are they going to do that? The Imperial Navy would have more than enough strength to ensure a passable amount of supplies got through, as well as going on the offensive at the front.

Rather a moot point, since the Imperial Navy and the Imperial Guard are two separate entities and the posed hypothetical is Imperial Guard vs. Space marines. The Imperial Navy is as removed from the Imperial Guard as the Inquisition or Adeptus Mechanicus are from both the Space Marines and Imperial Guard. In this type of hypothetical if you don't impose the strict separations than it becomes justifiable to include almost anything in the Imperial arsenal.

I was only responding to the SM lovers point on the Imperial Navy. If the Imperial Guard have no fleet support however, this does give the Space Marines an advantage. Are we assuming the Imperial Navy has just disappeared?

Like the Imperial Guard, almost impossible to calculate with any degree of certainty. I believe BFG has an example of one in Battlefleet Gothic, but a battlefleet is only the fraction of the strength of a sector fleet.

The Battlefleet operating the cordon against the Nids of Leviathan was 72 ships. 1 SM ship was sufficient to ignore their blockade, run a team on the ground, stand off the fleet's retaliation (only a few ships were dispatched, because of the bigger concern of the Hive fleet), destroy those ships, and pick the team back up a day later, amidst the Nids planetfall.

Compare this to the boarding actions led by the Night Lords in Soulhunter, and technically on numbers alone, a single Chapter can handle a Battlefleet. The problem is delivery of those numbers.

Kovnik Obama wrote:
Yes. But we do not know that the difference in number is the factor here.

Umm, yes we do. The pre HH uM alone would lay waste to the whole of the current SM chapters. In the old days there were no limit and a strike force would have been a thousand marines.

Kovnik Obama wrote:
If 5 Marines veteran can take a Navy flagship (Soulhunter), then I doubt this. Hell, the Navy is probably the worst opponent to face off the SM.

You are failing to understand numbers. The IN have both twenty or thirty times the number of capital ships in a single sector and range. Sure if the SM could get close enough to board it would be bad, however , eh the lose is a single ship. Once they are omn the other ship they are going no where and one the SM ship that has the teleporter is down that tactic is done.

Kovnik Obama wrote: False.

No its not false, at any one time the SM always have loses, each chapter at any givin time is engaged in dozens of missions. They are are never at full str, never.

Kovnik Obama wrote:

There was no IoM beyond the solar system before the Legions. It's doubtful it was even more than an alliance between Terra and Mars. Didn't really count as an Imperium ''of Mankind'' if 99.99999999% of Mankind didn't answer to it.

Of coarse it did not exist. Both others civilizations did, without the SM's, if it was not for the warp storms and the uprising of the Iron man the IoM would not have existed either.

Kovnik Obama wrote:
They had and still have a carte blanche. That alone speaks volume. The Imperium recognize the necessity of leaving alone and giving sovereignty to the branch of its military that has the highest percentage of Chaos heresy. I think that's because they recognize how ridiculously important they are.

No that is simply the red tape and the fact of the IoM does not change, it is as it was laid down and is frankly a bureaucratic mess that has little to do with the "Might of the space marines". They are symbols of the Might of the IoM and the power of the God-emperor, but they do not and never have hold the IoM together.

Unit1126PLL wrote:teleport attacks, granted, for some reason the Guard don't use.

While the correct answer is probably "this would take away from the mystique of the flagship product", and it has never been specifically stated, I'd assume that since teleportation has been consistently described as incredibly unpleasant, even for Space Marines, normal humans can be pretty adversely affected by the transition and wouldn't emerge as instantly combat effective.

Drop pod attacks are replaced with Drop-Troop Regiment attacks.

Not really the same thing. They aren't dropping directly from orbit, but being delivered by dropships like the Valkyrie or larger craft. This is more equivalent to Marines deploying by Thunderhawk or Storm Raven/Eagle/Bird/whateverothermodelFWeventuallyreleases.

Umm, yes we do. The pre HH uM alone would lay waste to the whole of the current SM chapters. In the old days there were no limit and a strike force would have been a thousand marines.

And we know that Humanity couldn't keep a united front even with the pre-DAoT period technology. Obviously the threats haven't gone down from then. The Emperor deemed it necessary to unite Mankind through the Astartes, surely because he couldn't do it with the guard he already had at his disposition (which were better than current ones).

You are failing to understand numbers.

That is an hilarious sentence.

The IN have both twenty or thirty times the number of capital ships in a single sector and range.

They never provided us figures for such a large section of the fleets, so you have no way of knowing this. And since the Hammer of Rightfulness took 1000 years to be build up, I really doubt they are so common.

eh the lose is a single ship

can fold an entire force, if it's the flagship.

No its not false, at any one time the SM always have loses, each chapter at any givin time is engaged in dozens of missions. They are are never at full str, never.

Which is false, since it doesn't take in account the known non-Codex adherent chapters, and the multiple ones that are hinted at. Bottom line is we do not know the effectives of the SM as a whole.

The greatest alien threat to the Imperium in the last millenia was met by about 150-200 Navy ships. GW likes to throw words like ''innumerable'' and ''untold'', but when they actually get down to numbers and telling, you realise it's a lot less stupidly huge then initially thought (except for the Navy effectives and the range of Navy weapons).

You are aware Kovnik Obama that the Emperor only had proto marines at his disposal. So he created the space marines and expanded using only them for a bit. Then Lo and behold the marines ran out of man power and the Imperial Army stepped up and started conquering planets. Then the mahreens had a temper tantrum and tore the IoN apart.

Fast forward to current IoM and you look at the defenders of the IoM. Basic Humans make up 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999%. There are about 1 million space marines. Now official fluff states a mahreen is equal to 10 humans so all the marines in the IoM has the fighting strength of 10 million guardsmen. The kicker... There are over a trillion guardsmen in the IoM. Which means that even if a Mahreenn was worth 1000 humans the mahreens will lose.


In short the Imperial Guard is mightier then the Space Marines

You are aware Kovnik Obama that the Emperor only had proto marines at his disposal.

To conquer Terra, yes. Once he sailed into space, he had the Legions ready. He awarded them directly to the Primarch he found.

So he created the space marines and expanded using only them for a bit. Then Lo and behold the marines ran out of man power and the Imperial Army stepped up and started conquering planets. Then the mahreens had a temper tantrum and tore the IoN apart.

That's complete gak. The Imperium was founded through the Great Crusade. The Great Crusade was an Astartes event. The only major expansion of Imperial space done on the back of the IG is the Macharian Crusade, and that pales in comparison to the Great Crusade.

Now official fluff states a mahreen is equal to 10 humans

That's as official as any other figure given. The greatest strategos of the Imperium evaluates that 100 marines are sufficient to take and hold a world. I doubt that 10 000 guardsmen could do the same. Hell I doubt 10 000 guardsmen could even take and hold Montreal.

Which means that even if a Mahreenn was worth 1000 humans the mahreens will lose.

Notice that I didn't argue this, because the specifics of the scenario is ridiculously skewed against Marines. I'm arguing against the idea that Marines aren't necessary for the continued existence of the Imperium. I'm also arguing against the idea that marines would auto lose in a war between them and the Navy ; while Marines aren't made for pitched battles involving large amounts of ordnance fire and tanks, they were pretty much specifically made for space boarding actions.

Hazardous Harry wrote:
I was only responding to the SM lovers point on the Imperial Navy. If the Imperial Guard have no fleet support however, this does give the Space Marines an advantage. Are we assuming the Imperial Navy has just disappeared?

The hypothetical doesn't go into that detail, it merely outlined the two sides with space marines attacking imperial guard and since the Imperial Navy aren't part of the Imperial Guard we really can't assume they'd be part of the same scenario.

I wanna know why this is still going.

Kovnik Obama wrote:[

And we know that Humanity couldn't keep a united front even with the pre-DAoT period technology. Obviously the threats haven't gone down from then. The Emperor deemed it necessary to unite Mankind through the Astartes, surely because he couldn't do it with the guard he already had at his disposition (which were better than current ones).

You are a bit wrong on a few fronts here
1: It has never been stated as far as I could find that before the Men of iron issue that humanity was not one empire.
2: The Emperor planed to replace humans with better humans, he had a long game and yes he built the SM, but they by the time the HH came about where already becoming just another tool. The Imperial army was already starting to take a far more active role.
3: That the Imperial army was "Better" then the current IG. which is simply not the case, the IA had a much smaller number and while they may have been good troops, they where a drop in the bucket next to IG numbers.

Kovnik Obama wrote:

That is an hilarious sentence.

I find it funny myself you keep avoiding the very question of manpower.

Kovnik Obama wrote:

They never provided us figures for such a large section of the fleets, so you have no way of knowing this. And since the Hammer of Rightfulness took 1000 years to be build up, I really doubt they are so common.

Eh there have been numbers of both common sector fleets printed and common number of ships to SM chapters 30 to 1 is being generous.
And as for the time it takes to build a ship...name the book, ships are the biggest thing GW fails on pinning down, some books but them at 1000 years, some at 20 and some at 2-3. Based off the most commonly repeated numbers I have found, 20-50 years is about right.

Kovnik Obama wrote:

can fold an entire force, if it's the flagship.

I have no clue what you mean here, If you mean putting all the SM in one ship..please do, far easier to kill that way. An Apocalypse class Battleship will eat a Battlebarg, it is a bit slower, but better defense, better weapons and better range its not a question of if it can kill the BB, but how close the BB can get before it does. And with the much, much greater rang and only slightly slower speed...its not close. A BB isn't a mtch in any form to a battleship, a grandcruser is an almost even match but a BS will kill it hard.

The idea that the SM could crush the navy is honesty an laughable one. They. Do.Not.Have. The. Manpower.

Kovnik Obama wrote:

The greatest alien threat to the Imperium in the last millenia was met by about 150-200 Navy ships. GW likes to throw words like ''innumerable'' and ''untold'', but when they actually get down to numbers and telling, you realise it's a lot less stupidly huge then initially thought (except for the Navy effectives and the range of Navy weapons).

No clue which one you are talking about really, but that sounds bout like a sector battlefleet. How so not huge? 150-200 active warships per sector, is fething massive. That is most likely the total of the entire SM active fleet, what do they have maybe a score of warships per chapter if that?

Engine of War wrote:I wanna know why this is still going.

Because this is likely the most important topioc on dakka. It's fanboyz vs fanboyz discussion. Very hot.

No clue which one you are talking about really, but that sounds bout like a sector battlefleet. How so not huge? 150-200 active warships per sector, is fething massive. That is most likely the total of the entire SM active fleet, what do they have maybe a score of warships per chapter if that?

2 Sector Battlefleet, (one which is supposed to be the strongest after Solar) assembled against Leviathan. All they could do is burn their own world instead of giving them to the Nids. In comparison, it took 4 Chapters, one partially assembled Battlefleet and some PDF to beat the crap out of Behemoth.

That is most likely the total of the entire SM active fleet, what do they have maybe a score of warships per chapter if that?

I doubt that, the Rock and it's escort fleet alone could probably be considered on the same level as many smaller sectorial fleet. Most figures given for fleet base chapter is around a dozen ship. That doesn't account, again, for the non codex-adherent chapters, like the Black Templars, which surely have many dozens of ships.

I have no clue what you mean here

.

Wasn't rocket science, but hey, let's give it another try : losing your flagship, in a naval battle, is a horrible loss. It alone can decide the outcome of the battle. Like it did with the boarding action in Soulhunter.

A BB isn't a mtch in any form to a battleship, a grandcruser is an almost even match but a BS will kill it hard.

Read Soulhunter. You'll see that a battlebarge doesn,t need to match the firepower of the battleship to beat it. They only need to get in boarding range (which they apparently have no problems doing).

The idea that the SM could crush the navy is honesty an laughable one. They. Do.Not.Have. The. Manpower.

The number of man available doesn't matter as much when every single Marines is in a situation of absolute superiority against all the Navy guard aboard. And this is what this is. 5 Marines took on a ship manned by over 100 000 Navy crew, and sunk it in less than 15 minutes. THEY. HAVE. THE. MANPOWER.

Kovnik Obama wrote: 2 Sector Battlefleet, (one which is supposed to be the strongest after Solar) assembled against Leviathan. All they could do is burn their own world instead of giving them to the Nids. In comparison, it took 4 Chapters, one partially assembled Battlefleet and some PDF to beat the crap out of Behemoth.

I am unfamiliar with that one now so can't comment on it. I'll familiarize myself with it and get back to you.

Kovnik Obama wrote:
I doubt that, the Rock and it's escort fleet alone could probably be considered on the same level as many smaller sectorial fleet. Most figures given for fleet base chapter is around a dozen ship. That doesn't account, again, for the non codex-adherent chapters, like the Black Templars, which surely have many dozens of ships.

A score is 20, so you just agreed on average the SM have under 20 capital ships per chapter.

Kovnik Obama wrote:

Wasn't rocket science, but hey, let's give it another try : losing your flagship, in a naval battle, is a horrible loss. It alone can decide the outcome of the battle. Like it did with the boarding action in Soulhunter.

It also wasn't in a clear sentience structure either. Yes losing a flag ships is bade, however if the flag ship in question is a battleship the SM have little hope of getting close enough to board. A grand cruiser would give a battle barge a real mauling, a few cruisers can do the same. I have no clue about the soulhunter or what book it was in or any of that. I am using the data I do have and in a space battle with even numbers, the Sm are at a disadvantage.

Kovnik Obama wrote:

Read Soulhunter. You'll see that a battlebarge doesn,t need to match the firepower of the battleship to beat it. They only need to get in boarding range (which they apparently have no problems doing).

Ah Bl book I am guessing which almost every time Ignores the fluff or rules GW use. So what kind of ship,(class) did the Sm take, how did they get close and what type of ship where they using? All of this is a factor as any and every SM ship simply can not close on a battleship, they simply do not have range. Thats not a question, it is a fact.

Kovnik Obama wrote:
The number of man available doesn't matter as much when every single Marines is in a situation of absolute superiority against all the Navy guard aboard. And this is what this is. 5 Marines took on a ship manned by over 100 000 Navy crew, and sunk it in less than 15 minutes. THEY. HAVE. THE. MANPOWER.

Again they do not have the manpower,you have lost 5 men...5 gone you can't get them back until after the fight and most likely lost a good number of your men ships getting close enough to get them on the ship. In a game of number the SM always lose.


you keep bring all this up, but are providing zero deatils. What type of ship did they take, how many ships did the navy have, how many ships did they have, how did they get that close?

you keep bring all this up, but are providing zero deatils. What type of ship did they take, how many ships did the navy have, how many ships did they have, how did they get that close?

How am I not giving details? I'm telling you that, in one war between the Traitor Legion the Navy, one Night Lord battlebarge charged the cluster of Navy ships before all other Chaos ships. There were no grand strategy, other than operating a loop that allowed the barge to lauch simultaneous boarding pods on two enemy ships. 5 ran the lenght of the ship, killing all, including the Admiral. I can't check my books, I'm at work. But I red the book less than a month ago, so I doubt I'm mistaken on anything else than maybe the number of marines (maybe 6 instead of 5).

The tzeentchian Captain of the NL went in lenght on what made a space commander superior to another (he was himself considered the best naval captain of his Legion). Reading the flow instinctually, autonomy, and individual superiority, not numbers or firepower or range (while those do matter, of course). While this might be biased, he considered himself (and by extension his battlebarge) a shark, while the Navy ships were fishes. Instinct, superiority and autonomy ; the stuff of Marines...

So writer fiat. Gotcha That battlebarge would have been under the guns of that BS alone for 30 mins or more before it could close to get within long range of its own weapons.

Then another 30 or better to close within boarding range all the while under fire from the whole fleet. The ship would have been dust before closing close enough to board, bearing godlike luck and it was simply heavily damaged and not destroyed they had zero hope of getting close enough to board.

Using GW fluff and GW rules that BB would have died long before it could get in range to even teleport. And then, while its true little on the ship could have stopped them, they could have but it would have been a bit hard 5 men even SM can be boren to the ground with enough numbers. Assuming they could not stop them, it could have taken hours to gut the ship, hull, bulkheads, troops holding area's and so forth it would not have been a cake walk and all the while this is going on the ship still could have unleashed death.

What you have here is a case of a writer have no knowledge of 40k ships, ship combat or scale. Its kinda common with BL stuff.

So we can take GW's, all other fluff and the rules word, or that of one book that ignores all of those things.Sorry man everything else I have and every published about ships and ship combat disagrees

Kovnik Obama wrote:The number of man available doesn't matter as much when every single Marines is in a situation of absolute superiority against all the Navy guard aboard. And this is what this is. 5 Marines took on a ship manned by over 100 000 Navy crew, and sunk it in less than 15 minutes. THEY. HAVE. THE. MANPOWER.

Ah now, if you don't mind me butting in here, 5 Astartes took on 100,000 and destroyed that ship because THE. AUTHOR. WANTED. TO. MAKE. THE. ASTARTES. LOOK. EPIC. TO. A. GODLY. LEVEL. Which is pretty much what all BL Astartes stuff is about. Poor little humans needing super-human help. Boring.

Engine of War wrote:I wanna know why this is still going.

Because of this;

Sparks_Havelock wrote:Ah now, if you don't mind me butting in here, 5 Astartes took on 100,000 and destroyed that ship because THE. AUTHOR. WANTED. TO. MAKE. THE. ASTARTES. LOOK. EPIC. TO. A. GODLY. LEVEL. Which is pretty much what all BL Astartes stuff is about. Poor little humans needing super-human help. Boring.

That's boring to you. Considering that was about Super-Humans beating the frak out of poor little humans, not saving them, I think you missed the mark. I think you've pretty much just missed the whole fething point of marines.

Using GW fluff and GW rules that BB would have died long before it could get in range to even teleport. And then, while its true little on the ship could have stopped them, it could have taken hours to gut the ship, hull, bulkheads, troops holding area's and so forth it would not have been a cake walk and all the while this is going on the ship still could have unleashed death.

There is no such thing as canon in GW fluff. All BL authors are valid sources of comparison for the fluff. Crunch is in no way a proper way to determine fluff.

And you can simply ask around about the opinion on Soulhunter, but I gather it's considered one of the best 40k fiction available.

I wanna know why this is still going.

...
Because of this

You know what's even more futile than this thread? Your post...

Kovnik Obama wrote:

Sparks_Havelock wrote:Ah now, if you don't mind me butting in here, 5 Astartes took on 100,000 and destroyed that ship because THE. AUTHOR. WANTED. TO. MAKE. THE. ASTARTES. LOOK. EPIC. TO. A. GODLY. LEVEL. Which is pretty much what all BL Astartes stuff is about. Poor little humans needing super-human help. Boring.

That's boring to you. Considering that was about Super-Humans beating the frak out of poor little humans, not saving them, I think you missed the mark. I think you've pretty much just missed the whole fething point of marines.

Nah, I was thinking about all the times Astartes 'save' the Imperial Guard by landing in time to save the day & take all the credit.

Kovnik Obama wrote:You know what's even more futile than this thread? Your post...

Oh good grief, do people lack a sense of humour these days?

when that source frankly contradicts every thing else ever written,then its wrong. The fact remains there is no way outside writer fiat a BB can close on a BS without massive damage. It simply can not be done, a BB is under the gun for half an hour being bounded by weapons that can one shot a smaller ship, they have less shields, and less defenses then a BS.

"they just charged it" is an exsample of the writer not having a clue about the subject matter. They can charge in but when you are going in without evasive manovuers( which is not charging) on a heavily armored and defended foe with twice your range you are not gonna make it.

If the writer had bothered to look at the ships involved he would have known it was frankly suicide with little change of even getting within the BB long range, much less boarding.

Explain to me how this ship got in range? Charging in leaves it dead, every single time. Only writer Fiat can change that simple fact.

40k has canon, it is simply embarrassingly ill managed. all setting have Canon, Gw throws up that BS line just like the "We are not a game company" lie to try and cover the horrid mismanagement they do of the setting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sparks_Havelock wrote:
Oh good grief, do people lack a sense of humour these days?

I got it man, made me laugh, because it is true and a great comic

Nah, I was thinking about all the times Astartes 'save' the Imperial Guard by landing in time to save the day & take all the credit.

Lol, well yeah, that's horribly boring, but that's just plain horrible use of an obvious Deus Ex Machina. Personnally, I think that the SM and Guardmen should pretty much never meet. They aren't designed for similar condition of warfare, IG being excellent at conventionnal, Marines being excellent at unconventionnal warfare. Space battles are pretty much the ultimate unconventionnal battleground.

The whole thing about the Marines being Godly. Well, they are, from our respective point of view. I completly believe the representation of 5-6 marines moving up a ship and simply crushing all in their way... Imagine for a second the horror of being shot at with bolt rounds in the tight confines of a ship. To me, it's basically a question of how quick can they get to the helm and kill the admiral.

I think we would all much more appreciate the Marine fluff if themselves (the Marines) didn't sound like such dumbasses on steroid. No one cares that Iron Man is capable of holding off by himself the US Air Force, as long as it requires him to use his intelligence.

Kovnik Obama wrote: Crunch is in no way a proper way to determine fluff.

We are not speaking fluff alone, we are asking if something can be done. You keep ignoring Evey single thing that gives the answer and keep using one source that contradict all others. Either everything ever written other then soulhunter is incorrect or it is.

Kovnik Obama wrote:

No clue which one you are talking about really, but that sounds bout like a sector battlefleet. How so not huge? 150-200 active warships per sector, is fething massive. That is most likely the total of the entire SM active fleet, what do they have maybe a score of warships per chapter if that?

2 Sector Battlefleet, (one which is supposed to be the strongest after Solar) assembled against Leviathan. All they could do is burn their own world instead of giving them to the Nids. In comparison, it took 4 Chapters, one partially assembled Battlefleet and some PDF to beat the crap out of Behemoth.

Behemoth, the smallest of the large hivefleets, was finaly crushed by battleforce Tempestus which lost almost 200 warships, including their flagship Dominus Astra.

A bit off topic but the tactic Dominus Astra. used. Might be a damned effective way at killing nid fleets. True it is a ship killer, but the Nids have no defense aginest it.

Behemoth, the smallest of the large hivefleets, was finaly crushed by battleforce Tempestus which lost almost 200 warships, including their flagship Dominus Astra.

Can I get a source, please? I remember something about a SM ship sacrificing itself... ? (Edit; So I guess it was the Battlefleet's flagship which sacrificed itself?)

In any way, this seem to support my point, tho. Maccrage was defended by a Chapter, with honourable (and posthume) mention going to 3 other Chapters.
A Battlefleet had to lose 200 ships to finish up what was mostly accomplished by 4 Chapters.

We are not speaking fluff alone, we are asking if something can be done. You keep ignoring Evey single thing that gives the answer and keep using one source that contradict all others. Either everything ever written other then soulhunter is incorrect or it is.

And the Word Bearer serie while you are at it. And no, if the company states ; ''We do not hold any fluff as canon'', that means that all fluff are comparatively valid, or retconned, at some point. BFG is not a better source on ships than a novel focussing on ships, if they are both written in fluff terms. Maybe GW will change this (I would like that), but they haven't. ''Every single things that gives an answer'' has no value if I can give you an exemple of a story set in the 40K, published by a filial of GW, which directly contradicts ''every single things''.

Kovnik Obama wrote:

Behemoth, the smallest of the large hivefleets, was finaly crushed by battleforce Tempestus which lost almost 200 warships, including their flagship Dominus Astra.

Can I get a source, please? I remember something about a SM ship sacrificing itself... ?

Imperial Navy, not the Space Marines.

I'd like to know the timeframe too, since Behemoth somewhat ressurected after Maccrage. Wouldn't it be the second splinter?

In any way, this seem to support my point, tho. Maccrage was defended by a Chapter, with honourable (and posthume) mention going to 3 other Chapters.
A Battlefleet had to lose 200 ships to finish up what was mostly accomplished by 4 Chapters.

You've got a very different recollection of the Battle for Maccrage than I do. Sure, the Ultramarines put up a good fight, but it was the arrival of the Imperial Navy (and subsequent sacrifice of their flagship) that tore out the beating heart of the Hive Fleet. Without them, Maccrage would without doubt be another barren rock.




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Kovnik Obama wrote:
And the Word Bearer serie while you are at it. And no, if the company states ; ''We do not hold any fluff as canon'', that means that all fluff are comparatively valid, or retconned, at some point. BFG is not a better source on ships than a novel focussing on ships, if they are both written in fluff terms. Maybe GW will change this (I would like that), but they haven't. ''Every single things that gives an answer'' has no value if I can give you an exemple of a story set in the 40K, published by a filial of GW, which directly contradicts ''every single things''.

Actually, the BFG book would be a more authoritative source than novels. The same way a codex is more authoritative than novels.

Kovnik Obama wrote: BFG is not a better source on ships than a novel focussing on ships, if they are both written in fluff terms.

This is incorrect. BFG is the main source, like all codex are. It is the prime authority on ships, range and how they act in battle. Everything else is a secondary source.

Kovnik Obama wrote: if the company states ; ''We do not hold any fluff as canon'', that means that all fluff are comparatively valid, or retconned, at some point.

Also incorrect. The term does not change just because a company is to lazy to keep track of its own canon. Also retconned canon means the old "fluff" is no longer canon. GW simply fails at managing its own setting, that failing does not change the definition of canon.

Actually, the BFG book would be a more authoritative source than novels. The same way a codex is more authoritative than novels.

Actually, the BFG book would be a more authoritative source than novels. The same way a codex is more authoritative than novels.

Both statements are directly in contradictions to statements by GW officials. You are both factually (as in actual facts, not made-up facts about an imaginary setting) wrong.