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rovian wrote:SM have forgeships and can loot supplies.

And the Imperial Guard has access to entire forgeworlds and hive cities, far more numerous than forgeships.

This is still going on?

There are more superheavy tanks in the Imperial Guard than there are Marines period.

There are more lasguns in the Imperial Guard than there are bolt-shells in the Imperium.

I dont know, there's a lot of bolter-class weapon in the hand of the IG.

Bobthehero wrote:I dont know, there's a lot of bolter-class weapon in the hand of the IG.

Heavy Bolters are the only common one. Bolt pistols on the officers can sometimes be found, but rarely.

Melissia wrote:

rovian wrote:SM have forgeships and can loot supplies.

And the Imperial Guard has access to entire forgeworlds and hive cities, far more numerous than forgeships.

Excapt that while the ships are a part of the SM, I highly doubt the forge worlds is a part of the IG organization. It was IG vs SM, right?

And that "ooh let's send in 500.000.000 leman russ and see what they say!"

This fight would never happen. Even if it had reason to (civil war) the IG would not be stupid enough to kill 98% of their men by trying to put them all on one planet, and if they did the marines would not just happily jump down there.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Excapt that while the ships are a part of the SM, I highly doubt the forge worlds is a part of the IG organization. It was IG vs SM, right?

Yes, but The problem is that people think you can separate the IG from the navy, when the IG isn't really effectively separated from them in the lore. That way they can give the Marines the one advantage they so desperately need.

But really, the navy is essentially inseparable from the Guard because of how much the Guard relies on it.

And even if you disclude forgeworlds, the Hive Cities still produce more military goods per year than the forgeships do by far-- those trillions of people on these forgeworlds are put to work manufactoring guns, tanks, ammunition, etc.

Frogboy14 wrote:Like the best way to say this is Imperial Guard are like normal every day soldiers. The Space Marines are like the Navy Seals.

No, that's more like the IG and the Storm Troopers. Space Marines are more like Captain America inside one of Tony Stark's Iron Man suites... compared to those every day troops and SEALs.

Anfauglir wrote:Space Marines are more like Captain America inside one of Tony Stark's Iron Man suites

Iron Man's suit is far more advanced than Astartes power armor, you realize.

Melissia wrote:Iron Man's suit is far more advanced than Astartes power armor, you realize.

Yes, although perhaps only in flight capability. Anyway, I was trying to find a close/similar/accurate example that can be compared (albeit through highly fictional films) to humans/Earth. SEALs are simply better equipped and trained versions of "standard" frontline infantry. They're too similar to serve as a comparable between IG and SM; the latter is literally a superhuman.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:And that "ooh let's send in 500.000.000 leman russ and see what they say!"

This fight would never happen. Even if it had reason to (civil war) the IG would not be stupid enough to kill 98% of their men by trying to put them all on one planet, and if they did the marines would not just happily jump down there.

All these points about having that many people there and that "space marines won't go down there" are clearly not relevant by the OP stating that it's a hypothetical question- assuming it IS possible to have that many men on a planet, and if the space marines DID decide to go on it as well and they had a war, who would win.

Okay any way you set the battle on multiple fronts or just one the IG still have the numbers advantage and the space marines can only really put up a fight like that with their own navy.

^ Pretty much yeah. No matter what happens, the IG will win, hands down, every time.

With the power of the imperial navy very few of the marines would even reach planet fall. having more then a few ships per chapter is uncommon. The imperial navy could just ram the other side with a ship of equal size and class and still have them out numbered 10 to 1. Its a concept of scale. Each marine is more BA then a 1000 normal men. But 1000 normal men will have gak like tanks and other cool gak to support the.

10 normal men, not 1000.

Hell If it really came down to it the entirety of the IOMs marines could fit on one planet and still be only 1/10 or 1/100 of the size of the forces that the guard commonly puts into a single planet to fight. And 100 might be better fluff wise. They really don't do them justice on the table. But it still doesnt make a difference the Marines would run out of ammo and fuel for their melee weapons long before the guard ran out of men to be killed by them.

Eh if the Astarte vanished the IoM would barely notice in the long run. The IoM would survive the lose of the SM with very little real lasting effect.

They may have more problems fighting demons but that's about it. They would lose a lot of worlds out right but in the end they would likely handle. Heck that would just mean that now the guard would get land raiders again.

weeelll considering there's now fluff saying that most barges were handed over to the imperial navy...

i dunno, two three sentinels with autocannons or lascannons could chug through quite a few legionaires.

Niether, the only orginisation within the Imperium that can act on its own is the Inquisition, it cammands its own Army, Navy, and Astartes units, the Inquisition the only Legion not dispanded.

Hunterindarkness wrote:Eh if the Astarte vanished the IoM would barely notice in the long run. The IoM would survive the lose of the SM with very little real lasting effect.

That's the most incorrect thing said in this thread.

Anyways, sum it up: IG fans/SM haters - IG would crush the marines, no problem. Marine fans say that they would either scrape through the win or take tons and tons of guard with them.

Nobody is going to convince either side that it would happen any other way.

And, in 40k's reality, the Imperium of Man needs the Astartes and the Guardsmen. If either suddenly vanished, the Imperium would crumble. The Astartes are given jobs the Guardsman can't survive, while the Guardsmen are given the necessary trench warfare and siege duties that the Space Marines are too few in number to perform.

ZSO SAHALL wrote:Niether, the only orginisation within the Imperium that can act on its own is the Inquisition, it cammands its own Army, Navy, and Astartes units, the Inquisition the only Legion not dispanded.

Incorrect. An Inquisitor can requisition entire navies, regiments, chapters and indeed whole worlds for their purpose, but not on a permanent basis. They may have access to a huge amount of resources, but ultimately those resources are Imperial Guard/Navy/Astartes units that are just heeding the Inquisitor's orders. But, beyond Inquisitorial Stormtoopers and perhaps the Black Ships, they are requisitioned forces, not the Inquisition's personal army.


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Crazyterran wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:Eh if the Astarte vanished the IoM would barely notice in the long run. The IoM would survive the lose of the SM with very little real lasting effect.

That's the most incorrect thing said in this thread.

Anyways, sum it up: IG fans/SM haters - IG would crush the marines, no problem. Marine fans say that they would either scrape through the win or take tons and tons of guard with them.

Nobody is going to convince either side that it would happen any other way.

Actually, this whole purpose of this discussion is to do just that. If it's your personal opinion that no one will ever be swayed one way or another on the matter, then don't post.

And, in 40k's reality, the Imperium of Man needs the Astartes and the Guardsmen. If either suddenly vanished, the Imperium would crumble. The Astartes are given jobs the Guardsman can't survive, while the Guardsmen are given the necessary trench warfare and siege duties that the Space Marines are too few in number to perform.

As has been discussed in the other thread, without the Imperial Guard the Imperium would collaspe almost overnight. Without the Astartes the Imperium might lose a lot more ground, perhaps even eventually crumble, but the Imperium's survival is still feasible.

Personally, I think that the Astartes would come off second best in a war between the Imperial Guard (especially if you include PDFs here, meaning no Chapter will have a friendly, functional world to operate from), but the conflict would probably doom the Imperium to a slow and suffocating death after the initial destruction. Especially if the enemies of the Imperium did not decide to sit out on the civil war.

Crazyterran wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:Eh if the Astarte vanished the IoM would barely notice in the long run. The IoM would survive the lose of the SM with very little real lasting effect.

That's the most incorrect thing said in this thread.

No, it may be something you disagree with but that does not make it incorrect. It is not SM hate, it is simply numbers and what each does. The IG is a 100% must have for the IoM to function at all, the SM are a nice non essential unit, they do not take worlds, they do not hold worlds, they do not guard worlds. SoB are an non essential unit as well whose lose might be more felt then the SM if we are being honest, but in the end they would also be a net zero lose.

Tell me just what Sm do that can not be done by any other unit in some way?

Hunterindarkness wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:Eh if the Astarte vanished the IoM would barely notice in the long run. The IoM would survive the lose of the SM with very little real lasting effect.

That's the most incorrect thing said in this thread.

No, it may be something you disagree with but that does not make it incorrect. It is not SM hate, it is simply numbers and what each does. The IG is a 100% must have for the IoM to function at all, the SM are a nice non essential unit, they do not take worlds, they do not hold worlds, they do not guard worlds. SoB are an non essential unit as well whose lose might be more felt then the SM if we are being honest, but in the end they would also be a net zero lose.

Tell me just what Sm do that can not be done by any other unit in some way?

It's been stated quite clearly in the fluff, that the Imperium would be goners without the Space Marines.

It's in the rulebook, in the Space Marines section of the fluff part.

If it was a civil war, with the entire Astartes turning against the Imperium, the Astartes would win. The last time there was a mass Astartes rebellion, the Imperium nearly fell. And it was stronger than then it is now.

If it was one massed battle, the Guardsmen would win. Sheer body and armor count would overwhelm the Space Marines, who deserve it if they are stupid enough to have an "All the Guardsmen vs All the Astartes" battle.

And really, PDFs are a joke to the lowliest of guardsmen. They'd be swept aside by any unified Space Marine attack.

And Space Marines not taking or holding worlds? Space Marines hold plenty of worlds, if you count their own. The Ultramarines own most of a sector. And for taking, they drop right into the heart of a rebel's fortress and ends the rebellion there, or into the heart of Alien territory, or... The Iron Hands retook an entire sector from Chaos cultists and Daemons in the Space Marine 5th Ed. Codex.

Armageddon would have been lost without the Salamanders, Blood Angels, and a multitude of other chapters to defend it. Ghazghkull would own one of the most important Forge Worlds in the Imperium. The entire Eastern Fringe might have been lost if it where not for the Ultramarines, either to the Tau or Hive Fleet Behemoth.

The Imperium would be a rotting corpse if it where not for the Space Marines. The only faction I could see the Imperium living without is the Sisters of Battle, since they didn't even need them until the fun with Vandice. And 90% of their fluff has them dying horribly.

Hunterindarkness wrote:No, it may be something you disagree with but that does not make it incorrect. It is not SM hate, it is simply numbers and what each does. The IG is a 100% must have for the IoM to function at all, the SM are a nice non essential unit, they do not take worlds, they do not hold worlds, they do not guard worlds. SoB are an non essential unit as well whose lose might be more felt then the SM if we are being honest, but in the end they would also be a net zero lose.

The Imperium was forged on the back of the SM. If they vanish, then the Imperium would have nothing over the pre-DAoT human organizations, in fact they would be in a ridiculously bad situation in comparison (from the little we know). It's safe to assume that it would the crumble back into small human enclave. Like it or not, the SM are what gives Humanity the edge to survive as a united power in the 41st millennium.

Crazyterran wrote:

It's been stated quite clearly in the fluff, that the Imperium would be goners without the Space Marines.
It's in the rulebook, in the Space Marines section of the fluff part.

40k fluff says many things, often( ok most time) contradicting itself. It may say that, but the info they put out over all simply does not back up that statement. Unless you pretty much discount every other codex ever written.

Crazyterran wrote:
If it was a civil war, with the entire Astartes turning against the Imperium, the Astartes would win. The last time there was a mass Astartes rebellion, the Imperium nearly fell. And it was stronger than then it is now.

Last time the Astartes were legions, not chapter, they well vastly outnumber the current chapters as they had no limit. The navy alone could take out the SM alone, propaganda fluff or no, they simply do not have the numbers. SM are at a max of one million IoM wide, they are never at that max, ever. So no, they coulf not take out the IoM, if they all got to gather they might, just might get a few sectors before the hammer fell.

Crazyterran wrote:
If it was one massed battle, the Guardsmen would win. Sheer body and armor count would overwhelm the Space Marines, who deserve it if they are stupid enough to have an "All the Guardsmen vs All the Astartes" battle.

But its not, even in smaller number a single chapter could not take a sector, hell they couldn't take half a sector fleet. Its simply numbers SM do not have them.

Crazyterran wrote:
And really, PDFs are a joke to the lowliest of guardsmen. They'd be swept aside by any unified Space Marine attack.

no, mauled yes, but the SM could not hope to sweep aside a whole planets PDF without suffering such lose it may well end them . You keep forgetting SM lack numbers. How many Sm you gonna send to put down 5 million men? Or twenty million or heck on a have a hundred million or better. Sm are small tactical units, they simply lack the numbers to be anything else.

Crazyterran wrote:
And Space Marines not taking or holding worlds? Space Marines hold plenty of worlds, if you count their own.

That is not what i meant and you know it. How many of your max 1'000 men you leaving for garrison duty?

Crazyterran wrote:
Armageddon would have been lost without the Salamanders, Blood Angels, and a multitude of other chapters to defend it. Ghazghkull would own one of the most important Forge Worlds in the Imperium. The entire Eastern Fringe might have been lost if it where not for the Ultramarines, either to the Tau or Hive Fleet Behemoth.

I disagree, they did the job yes, but were they the only one and only way to do so? Not at all. They simply are not all that, I mean they have uses, but they are not "Holding the Imperium together" that whole though is just a joke. They are a useful tool, buut not a necessary one in the lest.


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Kovnik Obama wrote:
The Imperium was forged on the back of the SM. If they vanish, then the Imperium would have nothing over the pre-DAoT human organizations, in fact they would be in a ridiculously bad situation in comparison (from the little we know). It's safe to assume that it would the crumble back into small human enclave. Like it or not, the SM are what gives Humanity the edge to survive as a united power in the 41st millennium.

This is not true, SM Legions expanded the ioM. They never once held it. Even at the crowning point of power they never held it together. Pre DAoT humans could hold there own, but the men of Iron and the warp becoming unusable for travel is what broke them into pockets, the whole IoM could have never happened Sm or No SM if those sotrms had not been "Blown away by the birth of a god. Sm give humanity a symbol and little else. Now if they could mass like the old days and be a real army, that would be a different story, but at such a tiny, tiny fraction of under a million men, they simply give nothing that can't be replaced in another way.

Hunterindarkness wrote:Last time the Astartes were legions, not chapter, they well vastly outnumber the current chapters as they had no limit.

Yes. But we do not know that the difference in number is the factor here.

The navy alone could take out the SM alone, propaganda fluff or no, they simply do not have the numbers.

If 5 Marines veteran can take a Navy flagship (Soulhunter), then I doubt this. Hell, the Navy is probably the worst opponent to face off the SM.

SM are at a max of one million IoM wide, they are never at that max, ever.

False.

This is not true, SM Legions expanded the ioM.

There was no IoM beyond the solar system before the Legions. It's doubtful it was even more than an alliance between Terra and Mars. Didn't really count as an Imperium ''of Mankind'' if 99.99999999% of Mankind didn't answer to it.

They never once held it.

They had and still have a carte blanche. That alone speaks volume. The Imperium recognize the necessity of leaving alone and giving sovereignty to the branch of its military that has the highest percentage of Chaos heresy. I think that's because they recognize how ridiculously important they are.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:Eh if the Astarte vanished the IoM would barely notice in the long run. The IoM would survive the lose of the SM with very little real lasting effect.

That's the most incorrect thing said in this thread.

No, it may be something you disagree with but that does not make it incorrect. It is not SM hate, it is simply numbers and what each does. The IG is a 100% must have for the IoM to function at all, the SM are a nice non essential unit, they do not take worlds, they do not hold worlds, they do not guard worlds. SoB are an non essential unit as well whose lose might be more felt then the SM if we are being honest, but in the end they would also be a net zero lose.

Tell me just what Sm do that can not be done by any other unit in some way?

The IG cannot guard worlds. They are too slow to respond. Only the Astartes can respond quickly enough.

If the Astartes all died over-night, the IG would need to create a pseudo-Astartes to fill the gap. If the Astartes are simply going to be replaced with a less effective and efficient equivalent, then whats the point?

Further, the Astartes are capable of operating on worlds and in environments that the IG cannot, and completing missions that the IG cannot.

I think people forget that SM have ways to make even the navy cringe. Teleporting terminators on board, thunderhawks/cestus assault rams for boarding and still a considerable amount of firepower. Thunderhawks themselves are more durable and better armed than lightnings. Big guns don't mean as much when you have to fight little things buzzing around you. As soon as the SM begin boarding, the Navy is hosed.

A lot of arguments fixate on the numbers and don't factor logistics or tactics. You cannot surround 1 person with a billion and expect maximum fighting capabilities. The more guard you pack into one spot, the worse they would be able to fight. Bolters have explosive ammo. Shrapnel, bone and terror cause a lot of problems. SM also use heavy weapons a lot more effectively than guard do, needing only a single marine to operate a lascannon. They also have assault troops to disrupt formations. Their tanks are a lot more durable in the fluff than table top. Chapters also tend to specialize in types of warfare, where as guard tend to build themselves around certain tools they use.

If the guard and the SM were to fight it out, guard would route. Ravenguard would be destroying their artillery, Imperial Fists would have an unbreakable line, White Scars would be riding through taking out commanders, Ultramarines would be changing tactics continually throwing enemy commanders off, Iron Hands would have the field dominated in tank warfare, Salamanders would be putting the finest tech to it's best use clearing tanks and troops, Blood Angels would be in the thick of it ripping people apart, Dark Angels would be in several different forces of fast vehicles, troops and termies, and Space Wolves would be having a ball. And these are just the founding chapters. Not to mention all of the ways marines can engage an enemy, with bikes, drop pods and transports. For espionage they can employ scouts. Marines also have artillery to clear swaths of troops. Between their weaponry, tactics and stature, it's highly likely that the guard would mass panic and run.

Surtur wrote:If the guard and the SM were to fight it out, guard would route. Ravenguard would be destroying their artillery, Imperial Fists would have an unbreakable line, White Scars would be riding through taking out commanders, Ultramarines would be changing tactics continually throwing enemy commanders off, Iron Hands would have the field dominated in tank warfare, Salamanders would be putting the finest tech to it's best use clearing tanks and troops, Blood Angels would be in the thick of it ripping people apart, Dark Angels would be in several different forces of fast vehicles, troops and termies, and Space Wolves would be having a ball. And these are just the founding chapters. Not to mention all of the ways marines can engage an enemy, with bikes, drop pods and transports. For espionage they can employ scouts. Marines also have artillery to clear swaths of troops. Between their weaponry, tactics and stature, it's highly likely that the guard would mass panic and run.

Nah, weight of numbers of means the Marines get hosed in a straight up fight. They'd need to find a way to sabotage/infiltrate the Navy and cripple it, then just let the IG starve. A billion men require three billion meals and 25 billion litres of water every day. Even a slight disruption to supply convoys is going to be disastrous to the IG.

However, any fighting in space is done by machines and ships, which puts the Navy and the Astartes on a roughly even footing. The Marines would need to find a way to take the Navy out; sabotaging port facilities, infiltrating boarding parties onto their ships, etc. In a straight up battle they'd only give as good as they got, and thats not good enough when the odds are stacked so heavily in their favour.

Does anyone have any figures on the rostered strength of a sector Navy fleet?

Surtur wrote:I think people forget that SM have ways to make even the navy cringe. Teleporting terminators on board, thunderhawks/cestus assault rams for boarding and still a considerable amount of firepower. Thunderhawks themselves are more durable and better armed than lightnings. Big guns don't mean as much when you have to fight little things buzzing around you. As soon as the SM begin boarding, the Navy is hosed.

The Imperial Navy wouldn't need even a 3rd of their firepower to atomise the combined might of the Astartes fleets. Boarding parties and teleporting is all well and good, but there is a minimum range where that can happen, and that minimum range is much, much shorter than the range of the Imperial Navies guns. The Astartes are even worse off against the Imperial Navy at large than the Imperial Guard, because the Navy will almost always get the first blow in.
Would the Space Marines put up a fight? Yes, they'd probably manage to inflict horrific losses on numerous Imperial ships.
Would their deaths be glorious? I guess, if you count any case of meeting death while outnumbered and outgunned glorious.
Would they lose? Most certainly.

A lot of arguments fixate on the numbers and don't factor logistics or tactics. You cannot surround 1 person with a billion and expect maximum fighting capabilities. The more guard you pack into one spot, the worse they would be able to fight. Bolters have explosive ammo. Shrapnel, bone and terror cause a lot of problems. SM also use heavy weapons a lot more effectively than guard do, needing only a single marine to operate a lascannon. They also have assault troops to disrupt formations. Their tanks are a lot more durable in the fluff than table top. Chapters also tend to specialize in types of warfare, where as guard tend to build themselves around certain tools they use.

All valid points (except maybe the bit about SM vehicle fluff vs tabletop). But quality can only do so much. The Astartes have been likened to a spearhead, or a surgical tool, and while that tool is the one available for a lot of jobs, it will always end up second-best when faced with the Hammer of the Imperial Guard.

If the guard and the SM were to fight it out, guard would route. Ravenguard would be destroying their artillery, Imperial Fists would have an unbreakable line, White Scars would be riding through taking out commanders, Ultramarines would be changing tactics continually throwing enemy commanders off, Iron Hands would have the field dominated in tank warfare, Salamanders would be putting the finest tech to it's best use clearing tanks and troops, Blood Angels would be in the thick of it ripping people apart, Dark Angels would be in several different forces of fast vehicles, troops and termies, and Space Wolves would be having a ball. And these are just the founding chapters. Not to mention all of the ways marines can engage an enemy, with bikes, drop pods and transports. For espionage they can employ scouts. Marines also have artillery to clear swaths of troops. Between their weaponry, tactics and stature, it's highly likely that the guard would mass panic and run.

I can clearly see here that you're failing to understand exactly how numerous the Imperial Guard is, and the mind numbing amount of resources they can call up. For every single Space Marine in the Imperium, there is at least a hundred regiments, and probably much more. Look at the Siege of Vraks, look at the horrific casualties the Imperial Guard were willing to suffer for inches of ground. The Imperium would have absolutely no qualms with grinding down the Astartes in a similar matter, and if it took 500 years or more of constant war to achieve this they would. They've done it before.

It doesn't matter if there is mass panic, entire routs. It doesn't matter if regiments collectively decide to blow their own brains out rather than face the god-like Astartes. There will always be more to take their place. The Imperial Guard is infinite, the Astartes are most certainly not.