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Reality-Torrent wrote:IoM probably wont survive without the astartes either.

If the Imperium wouldnt' survive without the Marines, it'd be a very slow death. WIthout the Guard, the Imperium would essentially simply vanish in an instant. The Marines are utterly incapable of defending the Imperium, and are only useful in the most major of battles-- and even then, there are other things that can participate in these, such as the Titan legions and so on.

The Marines are useful to the Imperium yes, but they are a very minor force and a minor presence in the overall scheme of things.

The main thing space marines bring to the Imperium is that they are a fast responding autonomous self deploying force. When a planet's attacked or invaded the IG are called but just by virtue of their decentrilized distribution across many planets and the shear number of men and equipment and the need to mobilize the Imperial Navy in addition to the IG means there deployment can take months... assuming the warp doesn't screw up the time table. Space Marines due to their autonomy and sell sufficience would tend to take much less time... say weeks.

The IG fix the problem, the IG fight the brunt of the war... but the Marines make sure bad situations are stabalized enough that the IG still have something worthwhile to fight over when they get there.

aka_mythos wrote:The main thing space marines bring to the Imperium is that they are a fast responding autonomous self deploying force. When a planet's attacked or invaded the IG are called but just by virtue of their decentrilized distribution across many planets and the shear number of men and equipment and the need to mobilize the Imperial Navy in addition to the IG means there deployment can take months... assuming the warp doesn't screw up the time table. Space Marines due to their autonomy and sell sufficience would tend to take much less time... say weeks.

The IG fix the problem, the IG fight the brunt of the war... but the Marines make sure bad situations are stabalized enough that the IG still have something worthwhile to fight over when they get there.

Exactly. The IG are a lumbering behemoth of an organisation, and the BRB makes mention of forces arriving at war zones years or decades after the war in question has finished.

Melissia wrote:WIthout the Guard, the Imperium would essentially simply vanish in an instant.

Well, it's obviously open for interpretation, and there is no hard fact, but I maintain that without the IG there would still be an IoM, it would simply shrink to a fraction of it's current size. Supposing that the Ad-Mech are still around, I think the Imperium would hold the Sol system. There wouldn't be any room for offence or expansion, though, they'd simply shut out the galaxy and hold out for as long as they can.

On the other hand, without the Astartes, the IoM would perhaps be able to attempt to hold all the ground it currently has... but it would soon start to buckle and cave in at the edges. Only through all of the Imperiums combined assets are they holding the galaxy back in a stalemate. Take away any of those assets, and that stalemate is over.

Without the Imperial Guard, holding the Sol system would be pretty mind-bogglingly hard. The Astartes do not have the manpower to hold the system against a dedicated attack on their own. Even back during the Horus Heresy they didn't, and their numbers-- and leadership-- are far less than they were then.

Melissia wrote:Without the Imperial Guard, holding the Sol system would be pretty mind-bogglingly hard. The Astartes do not have the manpower to hold the system against a dedicated attack on their own. Even back during the Horus Heresy they didn't, and their numbers-- and leadership-- are far less than they were then.

Though that's because the Sol system was attacked by other astartes no?

What I meant was that seeing as the astartes IS a big part of the IoM and still even though both them and the IG coexists mankind is still on a slow decline. If you remove the astartes from the equation that stream of decline would likely turn into something much worse.

Reality-Torrent wrote:What I meant was that seeing as the astartes IS a big part of the IoM

That's what I mean.

They aren't.

Unit1126PLL wrote:Don't forget guys that the Guard have anti-spaceship systems that are integral to their structure.

As for "simply dropping in on them" well....

... open your IG Codices to the Hydra Flak Tank unit page, then read the box at the bottom...

... a single Imperial Air Defense Regiment opposed a orbit-to-ground drop with a kill ratio of 99,999 to 1.

I think "simply dropping from orbit" will be hard.

Considering it says "rebel drop", it's safe to say that it was not an orbital drop.

The Guard does not have "anti-spaceship systems" integral to their structure. The Navy does.
Hydras cannot engage spaceships in orbit, nor can Manticores, Praetor Launchers, etc.
Hydras can certainly engage landing aircraft, but the likelihood of them being able to contest a full-scale orbital drop(note: "orbital drops" mean drop pods) is so silly slim it's not worth mentioning.

Melissia wrote:Without the Imperial Guard, holding the Sol system would be pretty mind-bogglingly hard.

Not really.

The Astartes do not have the manpower to hold the system against a dedicated attack on their own. Even back during the Horus Heresy they didn't, and their numbers-- and leadership-- are far less than they were then.

The Horus Heresy was an exceptional circumstance, where the IoM was split in half and waged war on itself. Nothing like that is ever going to happen again, in the same way that nothing in Middle-Earth's Third Age of Man could ever match the scale of conflict seen in the First and Second Ages. Besides, they did manage to beat the forces of Chaos back from the Sol system - without their entire loyalist force being united (as it would be in this case).

i think the problem is for the IG that the more spaace marines there are the better they are individually because they can for once not have worry about losses so they wont need to fall back because the whole `we can´t take this vital objective because well lose half the chapter holding it´ factor won´t matter because there are roughly 1 billion space marines. on the other hand there are millions of trillions of imperial guardsmen so as has allready been said the gaurdsmen could just sit on them, death by orbital bum-bardment


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Melissia wrote:Without the Imperial Guard, holding the Sol system would be pretty mind-bogglingly hard. The Astartes do not have the manpower to hold the system against a dedicated attack on their own. Even back during the Horus Heresy they didn't, and their numbers-- and leadership-- are far less than they were then.

actually the biggest legion in the horus heresy was the ultramarines with 25000 sm´s so there couldnt have been more than like 150,000 loyalist space marines. and the leadership of the horus heresy was evenly matched if not leaning in the favour of the chaos space marines. horus only flaw was pride. the imperium would have fell if he hadn´t for whatever reason lowered his sheileds.


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and more than anything the astartes represent hope and ´without hope we are nothing´

Nemesor wrote: ...death by orbital bum-bardment

Brilliant.

Melissia wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:but if you have 1,000,000,000,000 IG on a single planet, they obviously can't all fight at that same time

They wouldn't need to.

The Imperial Guard not only has superior numbers but also superior firepower.

lol i like you. always so confident in your answers

Melissia wrote:

Reality-Torrent wrote:What I meant was that seeing as the astartes IS a big part of the IoM

That's what I mean.

They aren't.

Except that you can ask why GW made Sm their epic posterboys if they were not. If SM were so weak/insignificant that many point them out to be, they would not be needed and a waste of resources. "shock and awe" do not work against all foes, SM need the strength as well. I do not deny IGs effectiveness, and if we were somehow to defy all laws of logic and actually put SM vs IG in a land battle (which is theoretically impossible due to previously stated reasons) then IG would win. But IG is too slow to react, and sometimes even commissars aren't just enough.

Training and faith in all glory, but try to get this in. Humans are biologically extremely poor warriors. Brittle bones, vulnerable organs, soft flesh. And weak mind, even seeing a Hormagaunt (or more likely, many Hormagaunts) will make you so terrified you run (Most of us are scared by an very aggressive dog, and imagine a spiky dinosaur insect dog the size of a horse) unless you have a commissar, in which case you'd be so terrified you could not aim properly, if you can even summon the strength to fight at all.

On the "Lasgun-vs-power armor" topic, I'd say that since lasguns utilise a focused laser beam that uses its energy to skorch the surface of a target, causing serious burn wounds on biological tissue. Because of this it is next to (if not completely) useless against power armor. Why? Because something that burns the surface on the target is never good against armor. Las does not have impact! You do not stagger if hit by light (even very strong light, hot enoguh to burn you) if you have even the thinnest layer of metal/ceramic armor. This means that the lasgun will skorch the surface of the power armor, burning some paint and blackening it somewhat. If it hits the soft armor it cannot penetrate, but it can however "fuse" the soft armor somewhat, as to limit the mobility of the victim; on the other hand, this requires sustained fire to the soft armor, which is easier said than done even with hundreds of guardsmen due to the clever design of the armor. Eye lenses can not be penetrated either, but they can be blackened to reduce the sight capabilities.

You should also remember that previously named Hormagaunt is more than capable to butcher a platoon on its own. It's a perfectly bio-engineered killing machine that is both highly resistant to small arms fire and so fast that you won't even notice you and your friends being chopped up, VS some somewhat (varies with regiment) trained human soldiers, equipped with armor that does not cover even half the body and weapons that is designed to be as cheap and simple as practically possible.

Melissia wrote:

Reality-Torrent wrote:What I meant was that seeing as the astartes IS a big part of the IoM

That's what I mean.

They aren't.

If your right, then I'm surprised by the fact that the Space Marines has such a big part in the universe. It seems obvious to me at least that they are indeed a big part of the defense of mankind, and without them the forces of mankind would consist of only a hammer and no nail.

The reason space marines are so "significant" is that in reality not every planet has giant populations or millions of soldiers trained as well as the Imperial Guard, some planets only have less well equipped and trained planetary defense forces or nothing at all. While GW's selling this image of a giant epic wars, in reality there would be many times more small incidents that don't necessary qualify as a war. In those small incursions, rebellions, or otherwise waiting for the Imperial Guard is wholly inadequate. Those incidences maybe done before the IG arrive, but the more mobile autonomy space marine are poised to assist in those instances in a more timely manner. In addition to acting as shock troops in these incidences Marines can easily provide leadership. Whether its these small incidences or bigger wars, it puts Space Marines in a position to be the first responders to react... that makes it easy to emphasize their heroism and guardian angel like quality.

aka_mythos wrote:The reason space marines are so "significant" is that in reality not every planet has giant populations or millions of soldiers trained as well as the Imperial Guard, some planets only have less well equipped and trained planetary defense forces or nothing at all. While GW's selling this image of a giant epic wars, in reality there would be many times more small incidents that don't necessary qualify as a war. In those small incursions, rebellions, or otherwise waiting for the Imperial Guard is wholly inadequate. Those incidences maybe done before the IG arrive, but the more mobile autonomy space marine are poised to assist in those instances in a more timely manner. In addition to acting as shock troops in these incidences Marines can easily provide leadership. Whether its these small incidences or bigger wars, it puts Space Marines in a position to be the first responders to react... that makes it easy to emphasize their heroism and guardian angel like quality.

That sounds good on paper, but the Space Marines are notorious for basically not giving a gak about tactically irrelevant planets. Guardsmen generals and PDF's have to beg most chapters to come save their asses. Ergo, the "little guy" planet that's 90% farmers with no kickass military of its own probably has less of a chance of seeing SM rescue than a gigantic sophisticated hive-world, which by its nature will probably be getting both SM help and the full Guardsmen platter.

BlaxicanX wrote:]That sounds good on paper, but the Space Marines are notorious for basically not giving a gak about tactically irrelevant planets. Guardsmen generals and PDF's have to beg most chapters to come save their asses. Ergo, the "little guy" planet that's 90% farmers with no kickass military of its own probably has less of a chance of seeing SM rescue than a gigantic sophisticated hive-world, which by its nature will probably be getting both SM help and the full Guardsmen platter.

My point before though was that regardless of a planets size or apparent significance Space Marines from the Imperial perspective are cast in this light of guardian angels, just because they show up first, most often.Space Marine chapters each have their own territories that they oversee and protect... not all of those are strategically significant so that is an exception. At the same time there are some chapters that care more than other, some out of zealousness and some like the Space Wolves. This is how they can be good and so well regarded... which was the question that was asked.

Regardless, you're missing my point, those were examples of how SM can seemingly be somewhere first and look "good". A better way of putting it... the saying is "there are no atheists in foxholes" so when a prescribed "angel of death" shows up it makes an impression. In that same way... everyone remembers when they've won on a lottery ticket, had a lucky draw in a card game, or a lucky dice roll, most don't remember distinctly the 100 times they failed. In the space marine instance, no one really survives to remember the worlds that fall because a marine captain shrugs and says a world's not worth it. That is the Imperial vantage and since every codex, including the Marine ones are written from the Imperial perspective... they are thus played up.

aka_mythos wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:]That sounds good on paper, but the Space Marines are notorious for basically not giving a gak about tactically irrelevant planets. Guardsmen generals and PDF's have to beg most chapters to come save their asses. Ergo, the "little guy" planet that's 90% farmers with no kickass military of its own probably has less of a chance of seeing SM rescue than a gigantic sophisticated hive-world, which by its nature will probably be getting both SM help and the full Guardsmen platter.

My point before though was that regardless of a planets size or apparent significance Space Marines from the Imperial perspective are cast in this light of guardian angels, just because they show up first, most often.Space Marine chapters each have their own territories that they oversee and protect... not all of those are strategically significant so that is an exception. At the same time there are some chapters that care more than other, some out of zealousness and some like the Space Wolves. This is how they can be good and so well regarded... which was the question that was asked.

Regardless, you're missing my point, those were examples of how SM can seemingly be somewhere first and look "good". A better way of putting it... the saying is "there are no atheists in foxholes" so when a prescribed "angel of death" shows up it makes an impression. In that same way... everyone remembers when they've won on a lottery ticket, had a lucky draw in a card game, or a lucky dice roll, most don't remember distinctly the 100 times they failed. In the space marine instance, no one really survives to remember the worlds that fall because a marine captain shrugs and says a world's not worth it. That is the Imperial vantage and since every codex, including the Marine ones are written from the Imperial perspective... they are thus played up.

Keep in mind the SM's are practically myth for most, the vast majority of the Imperium's terrible wars won without ever seeing a single Space Marine boot. They're an unknown quantity and the forces of the Imperium fight power/unimagineable enemies all the time.

Often as not, they SM's they do see are hostile, either as renegades/heretics (remember, half the original SM's turned to Chaos, and at least 50 full chapters and countless individuals/companies/squads etc have turned since) or are hostile for other reasons (i.e. someone occupied a long abandoned BT keep, the SM's are supporting one warring Imperial faction over another, etc) so they're by any means always on the "good" side.

Vaktathi wrote:Keep in mind the SM's are practically myth for most, the vast majority of the Imperium's terrible wars won without ever seeing a single Space Marine boot. They're an unknown quantity and the forces of the Imperium fight power/unimagineable enemies all the time.

I don't think you can say that first part factually, it highly subjective and I can't think of anything to base that on.-Yes they're mythical but they're spread evenly across the Imperium and its hard to believe they'd sit out the majority of wars let alone the most terrible ones. The myth and unknown quantity in their relation to the rest of the Imperium is to a degree because of their seclusion when they aren't at war and their technology being a bit more advanced.

Vaktathi wrote:
Often as not, they SM's they do see are hostile, either as renegades/heretics (remember, half the original SM's turned to Chaos, and at least 50 full chapters and countless individuals/companies/squads etc have turned since) or are hostile for other reasons (i.e. someone occupied a long abandoned BT keep, the SM's are supporting one warring Imperial faction over another, etc) so they're by any means always on the "good" side.

That's statistically flawed... there are according to the designers as many Chaos marines as Loyalist marines, but with a half of Chaos marines in the eye of terror a majority of the time... its hard to believe that between that the prevelance of those who want to stay a bit more in the shadows... while others renegade would prefer using the mystical image to manipulate normal humans. That the relatively small remaining fraction would make themselves more apparent than all of a greater number of loyalist marines is a bit hard to believe.

Neither, in the Imperium its the navy and the traders who have the power.

ZSO SAHALL wrote:Neither, in the Imperium its the navy and the traders who have the power.

You can't take a planet with only a Navy.

Someone must go down there and put a bayonet into the skull of the current planetary owners.

Like the best way to say this is Imperial Guard are like normal every day soldiers. The Space Marines are like the Navy Seals.

Melissia wrote:

Reality-Torrent wrote:What I meant was that seeing as the astartes IS a big part of the IoM

That's what I mean.

They aren't.

They are.

"Big part" is too subjective to argue since its simply not specific enough. We've argued they aren't proportionally, by the numbers significant, but what they are is significantly a big part of the the Imperiums identity. They define the Imperium's aspiration of glory and hope for better times. The story of "what are space marines"... like their weapons and armor, they are the relics of a bygone era made significant only by virtue of being able to place themselves in the middle of the most significant moments. They are collectively the propagandized heroes that the Imperium uses to reassure the citizenry on a level of faith that there is something greater than them, protecting them. The Imperium might survive without Space Marines, but it'd be alot more "grim and dark."

Engine of War wrote:

ZSO SAHALL wrote:Neither, in the Imperium its the navy and the traders who have the power.

You can't take a planet with only a Navy.

Someone must go down there and put a bayonet into the skull of the current planetary owners.

Not with orbital bombardment weapons. You just sit in orbit and scour his population centres down to the bedrock until he surrenders. In practice, whoever holds space superiority wins. The only time land battles will ever matter is when the enemy is dug in deep behind massive banks of void shields and orbital defence weapons, preventing ships from directly engaging it.

But even then they can simply cordon off the planet, starve them out, and force a surrender. Theres issues with that as well, time constraints for example, but the bottom line is if the enemy has no way of getting rid of your ships, he's boned. It's just a matter of time.

It's not like modern warfare where, short of nukes, we simply don't have the destructive capability to ensure the destruction of our enemies from the air. Or the issues we'd have with global over-sight, other countries kicking up a stink if we just bombed the gak out of population centres to take out a few enemies. The level of firepower available to a fleet in the 41st Millenium is mind boggling. There is simply no where, and no way to hide. If the enemy burrows into the ground, the enemy fleet will simply vaporise the crust of the planet.

Life is cheap. Just kill 'em all and import a few billion civilians from some over-populated hive-world. Different worlds present different problems, different assets require different methods, but if the enemy has a fleet, even just a single escort, and you don't? May as well surrender now.

Kaldor wrote:

Engine of War wrote:

ZSO SAHALL wrote:Neither, in the Imperium its the navy and the traders who have the power.

You can't take a planet with only a Navy.

Someone must go down there and put a bayonet into the skull of the current planetary owners.

Not with orbital bombardment weapons. You just sit in orbit and scour his population centres down to the bedrock until he surrenders. In practice, whoever holds space superiority wins. The only time land battles will ever matter is when the enemy is dug in deep behind massive banks of void shields and orbital defence weapons, preventing ships from directly engaging it.

But even then they can simply cordon off the planet, starve them out, and force a surrender. Theres issues with that as well, time constraints for example, but the bottom line is if the enemy has no way of getting rid of your ships, he's boned. It's just a matter of time.

It's not like modern warfare where, short of nukes, we simply don't have the destructive capability to ensure the destruction of our enemies from the air. Or the issues we'd have with global over-sight, other countries kicking up a stink if we just bombed the gak out of population centres to take out a few enemies. The level of firepower available to a fleet in the 41st Millenium is mind boggling. There is simply no where, and no way to hide. If the enemy burrows into the ground, the enemy fleet will simply vaporise the crust of the planet.

Life is cheap. Just kill 'em all and import a few billion civilians from some over-populated hive-world. Different worlds present different problems, different assets require different methods, but if the enemy has a fleet, even just a single escort, and you don't? May as well surrender now.

Often times there are resources planet side that an orbital bombardment would damage (and repair would take an eternity) or destroy.
Besides Exterminatus there are no records of "Blast planet, land colonists, reap resources"

If you want a planet for say agricultural purposes. you can't drop bombs form orbit willy nilly! it would damage the planets ecosystem making it USELESS
if you want a planet for mineral resources. you can use your space crafts lasers to blast the planet as you could blast the recourse to bits! making it USELESS.

The Imperium wants a planet for its resources. unless the planet is lost, and the only solution is exterminatus. they won't bombard a planet.

Engine of War wrote:The Imperium wants a planet for its resources. unless the planet is lost, and the only solution is exterminatus. they won't bombard a planet.

I disagree, there are multiple instances of orbital barrages, both in-game and in-background.

There's always going to be mitigating circumstances. Ag worlds are a good example. But if you have fleet assets and the enemy doesn't, you still hold all the cards. You can land and evacuate troops from anywhere on the planet, and unleash orbital bombardments from the equivalent of a light artillery barrage right up to crust-rupturing blasts. It also depends on the enemy. No one is going to want to keep a nid or daemon infested Agri world, for example. Chaos renegades may well have already destroyed any key manufactorums on worlds they have taken, or it may be an utterly alien world that needs subjugating. No Imperial is going to want to capture Tau manufactorums of Necron tombs intact, and when subjugating new Human worlds and returning them to the fold, just the display and threat of an orbital bombardment would be enough to force surrender.


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It's the Navy, not the IG that is the true mortar of the Imperium. The might of the Astartes lies in their ability to very quickly get their own fleets to wherever they need to be.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Reality-Torrent wrote:What I meant was that seeing as the astartes IS a big part of the IoM

That's what I mean.

They aren't.

Except that you can ask why GW made Sm their epic posterboys if they were not.

Because they sell.

GW has not written the Space Marines to be a huge part of the Imperium. Many planets think the Marines are nothing more than legends. The overhwelming majority of the Imperium's populace will never see a Marine in their lifetimes, planets going, easily, generations and generations without ever seeing a Space Marine. The overwhelming majority of battles involving he Imperium are fought and won by the Guard and the PDF, with not a marine in sight.

That the Marines are their poster boys doesn't mean that they are a core aspect of the Imperium. It just means that they sell well.

What seems to be skipped over is that they would never meet on one planet and we can be pretty sure that Astartes will be the aggressors as they have spaceships and organisiotion to do it. you also have to consider say a 100 regiments are on a planet that is in danger of being attacked that's a lot but there strength is in numbers and when all the SM land they will be able to meet them 1 on 1 numberswise and then before the rest of the ponderous IG can hit back be back in the warp and strike again considering the IG have to defend but the SM have forgeships and can loot supplies.

Serder wrote:what about terminator armor? These thigns can lift more than normal power armor! and they can open god damn land raiders with their chain fists!

Basilisks, Medusas and Collosus tanks. Also just bomb them with Vendettas. All those bikers, especially the Ravenwing of the Dark Angels with probably plow through the IG lines, but be run over by a Leman Russ. Also just use a load of Hellhounds (1,000,000 should do the trick) and will just burn everything. Also just rig up Chimera with explosives....