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Melissia wrote:I'm fairly certain whoever recorded it would win.

I think his point was more that in a fight where all the Space Marines and all the IG were in one place, the casualties would be so significant that they could no longer "hold the line" against invasion. That also ignores that if you got all the IG and SM in one spot, who's watching the frontier for all the years to get both sides together and redistribute them afterwards?

Vaktathi wrote:Lets also not forget that we cannot ignore the Imperial Navy. While not part of the Imperial Guard, both are part of the Departmento Munitorum, and share a common high command, one won't stand by if the other is under attack.

But they're two different entities and for the purposes of this verses thread, the Imperial Navy, technically, cannot be involved because it is not apart of the Imperial Guard. While under normal circumstances the Navy would be involved, but in this debate it has to be excluded.

Here ya go..... (picture is missing the rest of the entire regiment. thats only the Heavy armor (Battle tanks and Super heavys), everything else is not in there, which includes plenty of artillary, troops transports, hellhounds, and ALOT of Guardsmen.

What every space marine faces, if its little on the low side (in terms of numbers for the Guard)

its practically 1 regiment (or more!!!) per Space Marine(singular). and each regiment may vary in numbers but they are always in over a thousand (or more)

for the Lasgun vs Power armor argument.
besides the table top. Think of it as this. a needle won't destroy a rock by itself unless it manages to hit a weakspot. but a million or more needles relentlessly picking the rock into dust.
theres even a joke comic that addresses this. 1 lasgun will not hurt (unless it hits a vulerable spot), but 50 or more? kiss your power armored bumm goodbye.

Oh.... and did i mention the plamsa weapons, las cannons, melta guns, grenade launchers,etc which makes power armor useless.

Logistics argument. The guard is uncountable. But im sure they have the whole logistical system down to a science.

Space Marine "space superiority" argument: the IG have plenty of ordinace that can fire into orbit! Defense Lasers, and many more weapons. (and somethign tells me a Death strike if modified correctly can fly into space and blow up a Battle Barge!)

unfortunatly, Space Marines are NOT gods, they are powerful and have very effective armor (which i have no dout). but the Imperial Guard is able to swamp them with sheer numbers and firepower.

Vaktathi wrote:
Nothing the Space Marines can really put forth will overcome those sorts of odds, at least consistently.

SM independent of any other military force, has its own battlefleets and their own capability to implement Exterminatus. The Imperial Guard do not.

Some keep insisting that if SM can bring their full Chapter, which includes their ships, that the IG should be able to get the assistance of a second distinct military organization the Imperial Navy. This isn't chess, or a set piece battle this is "space marines attacking imperial guard"... not IG and IN, but just IG. There is no disputing that in a purely land battle IG win by shear number, no one is even arguing that, but it is to the exclusion of the Space Marines most significant resources.

Just to further emphasize the separation, the fluff says the gap between Imperial Navy and Imperial Guard is an intentional measure to prevent a rogue leader of either from having overly significant ability to wage war. The IN without the IG can't really seize anything and the IG without the IN can't travel beyond their current planet. This is by design, for the same reason SM were broken into chapters, so no one person could wield that kind of military might.

aka_mythos wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:
Nothing the Space Marines can really put forth will overcome those sorts of odds, at least consistently.

SM independent of any other military force, has its own battlefleets and their own capability to implement Exterminatus. The Imperial Guard do not.

Some keep insisting that if SM can bring their full Chapter, which includes their ships, that the IG should be able to get the assistance of a second distinct military organization the Imperial Navy. This isn't chess, or a set piece battle this is "space marines attacking imperial guard"... not IG and IN, but just IG. There is no disputing that in a purely land battle IG win by shear number, no one is even arguing that, but it is to the exclusion of the Space Marines most significant resources.

Just to further emphasize the separation, the fluff says the gap between Imperial Navy and Imperial Guard is an intentional measure to prevent a rogue leader of either from having overly significant ability to wage war. The IN without the IG can't really seize anything and the IG without the IN can't travel beyond their current planet. This is by design, for the same reason SM were broken into chapters, so no one person could wield that kind of military might.

In order to have a "vs" theoretical debate, you must frame the entire idea around the two forces being able to fight. Since the Imperial Guard cannot fight the Marines in space, then you can't in all fairness look to that to be your ace in the hole. Saying the Space Marines would defeat the Guard in space is redundant. It would be like saying the Guard would defeat the Marines on land. Statistically, it's pretty much the same.

Alpharius wrote:These threads are beyond goofy.

If the all the Space Marines somehow decided to rebel and fight all of the Imperial Guard... everyone will lose!

It is 'game over' for the Imperium at that point...

True. And they are almost always over (like this one) by the first page, as far as answering the OP goes. After that it becomes a mixture of circular arguments and further and further tangents from the originally proposed hypothetical.

KplKeegan wrote:During the first couple weeks of an invasion, the Space Marines would seem to be winning due to their effortless insertions and precision force, but the shock would fade and the Marines would slowly be ground down underneath bodies, bullets, treads, and shells. They could be the most Badassed Super Humans of All Time, but the numbers would simply overwhelm them to the point of multiple last stand scenarios.

Pretty much.

It's quite straightforward. The unified Astartes can only win if the following two factors are in effect: a) there's no Imperial Navy and b) the Guard remain scattered across the galaxy. In all and every other circumstance, they are washed away via attrition due to one thing and one thing only: numbers, if not on the ground (through men and tanks), then in space (through starships).

To think of (very) rough filmic scenarios that could be considered analogeous to how the conflict would go down, two that come to my mind is Shugart and Gordon's (SM) last stand at the Super Six-Four crash site against Somali militia (IG) in Black Hawk Down, and the conflict in general depicted between Leonidas and his Spartans (SM) against the Persians (IG) in 300.

Anfauglir wrote:To think of (very) rough filmic scenarios that could be considered analogeous to how the conflict would go down, two that come to my mind is Shugart and Gordon's (SM) last stand at the Super Six-Four crash site against Somali militia (IG) in Black Hawk Down, and the conflict in general depicted between Leonidas and his Spartans (SM) against the Persians (IG) in 300.

Not bad examples really. I think this thread is over. If someone claims the Marines would win, no matter how badly, then they won't be convinced the other way. Likewise, people who support the guard winning (me) will never be swayed that the Marines could win. At least I know I won't.

Melissia wrote:

Ratbarf wrote:Transcontinental doesn't mean capable of hitting something as far away as the moon.

Actually I would say that it's harder to do transcontinental barrages than to hit something in space.

Lack of gravity and friction makes calculations quite easy, and you aren't trying to fire in such a way that the missile curves across a planet.

But the ICBMs would not have that problem anyway, and again, if the Marines have naval assets, so do the gaurd.

Melissia comes across an excellent point. you can indeed remove the Navy from the equation, leaving the Imperial guard planetside only. But in doing so, you also leave their planteary defense systems in place (as in Storm of Iron).

And yes the marines can drop anywhere, but in reality they have to drop into a meatgrinder. If they are going after the command HQ, the IG know it too and will set up killzones that make the Istvaan massacre look like walking a wiener dog. Like the roack motel the marines can check in, but they won't check out.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:-Krieg Stuff-

But they do retreat,, but only once their generals decide to, the grunt won't fall back without an order to do.

Bobthehero wrote:

Sparks_Havelock wrote:-Krieg Stuff-

But they do retreat,, but only once their generals decide to, the grunt won't fall back without an order to do.

I never got the chance to say it- but that speech got a fire stirred up in my belly. Well done

Alpharius wrote:These threads are beyond goofy.

If the all the Space Marines somehow decided to rebel and fight all of the Imperial Guard... everyone will lose!

It is 'game over' for the Imperium at that point...

Ignatius wrote:Not bad examples really.

They do the job nicely, I think. Both feature a smaller force of vastly superior warriors in both equipment and training. Yet, despite these advantages, they can do nothing to prevent their inevitable defeat due to one overwhelming factor: numbers.

With that, I've just thought of another one; Boromir's last stand at Amon Hen in The Fellowship of the Ring.

I can't believe about about to say this, but (O Emperor protect me) I agree with Melissia.

The space marines, while being able to disrupt disable, and generally stomp on the Guard's toe, would simply not be able to survive any protracted engagement with a force the size of the IG. This point has been made time and time again, and effective counter-points have also been made, but in the end numbers can provide all the advantage they need.

The Guardsmen can't survive long without food or drink? They simply eat the ones too weak to survive. Not enought ammo? They have teeth and nails for a reason. Leaders captured/dead? We better go get them then!

Goodnight Dakka, sleep tight, don't let the nurglings bite.

Don't forget guys that the Guard have anti-spaceship systems that are integral to their structure.

As for "simply dropping in on them" well....

... open your IG Codices to the Hydra Flak Tank unit page, then read the box at the bottom...

... a single Imperial Air Defense Regiment opposed a orbit-to-ground drop with a kill ratio of 99,999 to 1.

I think "simply dropping from orbit" will be hard.

Ignatius wrote:
In order to have a "vs" theoretical debate, you must frame the entire idea around the two forces being able to fight. Since the Imperial Guard cannot fight the Marines in space, then you can't in all fairness look to that to be your ace in the hole. Saying the Space Marines would defeat the Guard in space is redundant. It would be like saying the Guard would defeat the Marines on land. Statistically, it's pretty much the same.

That's why I excluded the notion of any planet killing weapons; it was only a notion and not meant to make a point. The issue is that the Space Marine modus operandi is dependent on space based capabilities. Obviously the theoretical situation prevents exterminatus; so to what degree do Space Marines otherwise get to access their chief asset. The whole point of "Marines" is the marrying of land and naval capabilites. Imagine a hypothetical of US Navy vs US AirForce, where someone insisted the navy could only use their airborn assets... its a significant exclusion of their martial power, and I think thats what some are doing to marines.

Just a random thought that doesn't speak to our hypothetical situation but speaks to the nature of a "realistic" perspective on Space Marines: While 40k as a game doesn't lend itself to it, I imagine being a "marine" force the vast majority of the Space Marines, combat would tend to be boarding actions from one ship to another... in such an environment being outnumbered and the presence of artillery would be largely mitigated.

Here is my counter arguement to my own thoughts on Space Marines with their ships... it still doesn't matter, the ships will bombard the planet and wipe out a large number of IG, but eventually those ship guns run out of ammo and the marines have to land and go after the most dug in or most remote. An orbital bombardment would have to wipe out more than 99.9999% of the IG (leaving fewer than a hundred million of a trillion) for the Space Marines to even stand a chance once upon landing.

My issue is that most people want to pose this hypothetical as cake walk for one side over the other. Simply put, it wouldn't be.

Unit1126PLL wrote:Don't forget guys that the Guard have anti-spaceship systems that are integral to their structure.

As for "simply dropping in on them" well....

... open your IG Codices to the Hydra Flak Tank unit page, then read the box at the bottom...

... a single Imperial Air Defense Regiment opposed a orbit-to-ground drop with a kill ratio of 99,999 to 1.

I think "simply dropping from orbit" will be hard.

I think this a reasonable arguement with only a single counter point... are there enough full Air Defense regiments to defend enough of a planet?

aka_mythos wrote:I think this a reasonable arguement with only a single counter point... are there enough full Air Defense regiments to defend enough of a planet?

There are enough of them to cover MULTIPLE planets, and even you assume if they didn't for some reason (if you vastly underestimate the sheer size of the Imperial Guard being the main reason), that's a bit irrelevant isn't it? After all, all they have to do is stop the Space Marines from landing anywhere important and bombard the rest with artillery.

This is a pointless arguement

Brother Thomas wrote:This is a pointless arguement

Maybe, but it's fun (usually).

Brother Thomas wrote:This is a pointless arguement

Obviously, there wasn't a time where it wasn't pointless but sometimes it's nice to think about it...

Melissia wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:I think this a reasonable arguement with only a single counter point... are there enough full Air Defense regiments to defend enough of a planet?

There are enough of them to cover MULTIPLE planets, and even you assume if they didn't for some reason (if you vastly underestimate the sheer size of the Imperial Guard being the main reason), that's a bit irrelevant isn't it? After all, all they have to do is stop the Space Marines from landing anywhere important and bombard the rest with artillery.

I don't think there is any way to know if they could in fact. Realistically these A-A targets would be the first things targeted by orbital fire... but for the sake of argument lets ignore that fact.

A little break down of the numbers purely for the sake of perspective... some of the best anti-aircraft guns in the world have about an 11km, giving a coverage zone of 380km^2... the Earth is 360,000,000 km^2... to protect totally an Earth sized planet would require a million anti-air regiments.

A million units*

They have billions of them.

aka_mythos wrote:

Melissia wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:I think this a reasonable arguement with only a single counter point... are there enough full Air Defense regiments to defend enough of a planet?

There are enough of them to cover MULTIPLE planets, and even you assume if they didn't for some reason (if you vastly underestimate the sheer size of the Imperial Guard being the main reason), that's a bit irrelevant isn't it? After all, all they have to do is stop the Space Marines from landing anywhere important and bombard the rest with artillery.

I don't think there is any way to know if they could in fact. Realistically these A-A targets would be the first things targeted by orbital fire... but for the sake of argument lets ignore that fact.

A little break down of the numbers purely for the sake of perspective... some of the best anti-aircraft guns in the world have about an 11km, giving a coverage zone of 380km^2... the Earth is 360,000,000 km^2... to protect totally an Earth sized planet would require a million anti-air regiments.

Fortunately, the Imperial Guard have orders of magnitude more Air Defense Regiments than mere millions.

Also don't forget that they're not entirely AA Guns, but also include AA Strike Eagle missiles for Manticores and AA Praetor missiles, which are comparable to the long-ranged Soviet missile systems. Especially the Praetor - it's an anti-aircraft superheavy.

off topic (sort of) its a pity that a AA manitcore or a Hydra doesn't prevent Deep strikes in an area around the unit, (and a significant area around them too boot). it would certinly help aginast those who love to deep strike up close.

Anyways. Besides the significant AA ability of the Guard, they have many Anti Space craft weapons as well (which have been listed).
Its one thing to send drop pods into the atmosphere but its hard to do when your craft is threatened by a massive laser weapon that can blow holes in your space craft.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Fortunately, the Imperial Guard have orders of magnitude more Air Defense Regiments than mere millions.

Also don't forget that they're not entirely AA Guns, but also include AA Strike Eagle missiles for Manticores and AA Praetor missiles, which are comparable to the long-ranged Soviet missile systems. Especially the Praetor - it's an anti-aircraft superheavy.

A planet of sufficent size to allow 1 trillion IG to maneuver would be several times larger than Earth.

As pointed out they'd be the first targets for orbital bombardment or teleporation attacks.

Something else no ones considered is tha with 1 trillion IG on a planet, the vast majority would not be frontline, they'd be logistical support.

Who can still fire a lasgun, throw grenades & fight. You're a soldier of the Imperial Guard first, specialised role second.
.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:Who can still fire a lasgun, throw grenades & fight. You're a soldier of the Imperial Guard first, specialised role second.

I'm just speaking in terms of practicality, that for every soldier fighting there are another 2 or 3 making sure he doesn't run out of supplies and ammunition and that those things arrive to him/her. This isn't a case of specialized role, this is a case of an essential role.

Yes if the IG's baggage handlers, logistic officers, cooks, convoy drivers, mechanics, etc get attacked they can fight back, but if you have 1,000,000,000,000 IG on a single planet, they obviously can't all fight at that same time, even if there were enough SM for them all to fight at the same time... that's my point.

aka_mythos wrote:but if you have 1,000,000,000,000 IG on a single planet, they obviously can't all fight at that same time

They wouldn't need to.

The Imperial Guard not only has superior numbers but also superior firepower.

aka_mythos wrote:I'm just speaking in terms of practicality, that for every soldier fighting there are another 2 or 3 making sure he doesn't run out of supplies and ammunition and that those things arrive to him/her. This isn't a case of specialized role, this is a case of an essential role.

Yes if the IG's baggage handlers, logistic officers, cooks, convoy drivers, mechanics, etc get attacked they can fight back, but if you have 1,000,000,000,000 IG on a single planet, they obviously can't all fight at that same time, even if there were enough SM for them all to fight at the same time... that's my point.

Ah I see, I understand the point you were making - people often dismiss rear echelon formations completely for some unknown reason. No they can't all engage at the same time but they don't need to - there are already enough front line troops to wipe the floor with the Astartes with ease.

I think even in a situation most favoring the Space Marines, ie ships in orbit, they'd still lose... but the difference between not having ships and all their assets and haivng them is probably the difference between killing 10 Million IG or 10 Billion IG... but the other 990 billion likely wouldn't notice.

IoM probably wont survive without the astartes either. Both they and the IG are two important pieces of the machine and without one of them it's a lost cause. Although mankind has despite both of these factions working together still been on a steady decline. So if you remove the space marines you obviously got a ice-cream-truck without any ice-cream.