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Ratbarf wrote:The space contingent is probably their biggest strength personally.

Again, if you want to include naval battles, then we're tossing in the Imperial Navy, which would wipe the metaphorical floor with the Space Marine navy-- the Imperial Navy has superior firepower and numbers, bigger ships, faster ships, and so on and so forth. It's a true navy, not just a few ships designed to drop some drop pods on a planet and provide artillery support (and a few smaller ships to escort).

The Space Marines wouldn't even last a year, so that's not entirely the problem here.

I'm not including naval battles. All of my posts use the Space contingent as either a strike platform or a rest area out of the reach of Guard weapons.

And the Guard are supposed to be stranded without the Navy, that's intentional.

And I haven't broken the original premise of the thread. Space Marines vs the Imperial Guard, Space Marines include a naval contingent, that's just the way they are. And there is a lot more to warfare, especially strategic warfare, than killing things with various weapons. Disease, hunger, thirst, a good general lets these weapons do the fighting for him.

Remember war isn't simply about killing your enemy, it's about making it impossible for him to do anything except lose. The Space Marines naval contingent guarantees the Imperial Guard will lose, most likely without even having to fire a shot. (no time limit posed, ergo the space marines could simply wait in space all cheery and safe and wait for the guard to grow old and die if they wanted to)


Tangent thought; This thread is pretty much a more extreme version of, "Who would win between the Marine Corps and the Army if both were shucked on an island and last force standing wins?" The answer is the Marine Corps, they just get on their boats, interdict the island out of strike range of Army planes/choppers and wait for them to starve to death.

Wow I think I'm starting to repeat myself, time to go to bed, been up for ~43 hours/

Ratbarf wrote:a rest area out of the reach of Guard weapons.

It isn't. Guard has ICBMs and other transcontinental artillery weapons. And again, if you include naval assets, then the Guard would have their own as well (they do in the normal course of battle anyway, even if it's just a means of insertion and extraction).

Transcontinental doesn't mean capable of hitting something as far away as the moon.

Ratbarf wrote:Transcontinental doesn't mean capable of hitting something as far away as the moon.

Actually I would say that it's harder to do transcontinental barrages than to hit something in space.

Lack of gravity and friction makes calculations quite easy, and you aren't trying to fire in such a way that the missile curves across a planet.

But the ICBMs would not have that problem anyway, and again, if the Marines have naval assets, so do the gaurd.

Ratbarf wrote:I think that a lot of the argument that is circular here is that whatever the Space Marines use, the Guard will simply reply with their slightly less effective, but much more numerically superior weapons. This is only true to a certain extent. Yes the Guard have overall superiority, but I doubt that they could achieve local superiority over the Space Marines. I say this because every chapter of Marines should be able to fight on say, 10 battlefields at once. That's one per company, each of those companies are capable of beating, quite handily I might add, several regiments of Imperial Guard at any given time.

Do you have a source for this assumption? Because I would argue against this tooth and nail just like many of you are about the Space Marines beating the Imperial Guard. 100 marines beating tens of thousands of Guardsmen? Nice try.

Ratbarf wrote:Now obviously there are rock paper scissors issues with this premise. A Battle company would likely die to a tank regiment, an Assault Company would likely die to an anti-air regiment, On the other hand, and Assault company would likely murder the crap out of an Artillery regiment, or a light infantry regiment, and do well against any unarmoured infantry regiments. A Devastator company would likely excel against a Superheavy regiment, and would almost definately wipe a tank regiment, or Armoured regiment. A bike assault company would wipe a roughrider regiment, and likely artillery and armoured regiments as well. What I'm getting at essentially is that Space Marines have a hard counter for everything the Imperial Guard can throw at them, and the Imperial Guard have a counter to pretty much everything the space marines can throw at them, aside from possibly teleporters and terminators. So the force that would defeat the other would be the one that is able to always deploy their rock where the enemy deploys a scissors, and keep their rocks away from the enemy's paper. I feel the Space Marines can do this to such a greater degree than the Guard, that the Space Marines would win.

I agree with the rock paper scissors analogy. But every kind of space marine company would die to a tank regiment, as would every kind of space marine company dying to enough Infantry regiments. Saying "I feel the space marines can do this to such a greater degree" doesn't make any sort of sound arguement and defeats the purpose of the entire paragraph before it. Here's the kicker though, you said that the force that can always deploy their rock against the enemy's scissor will win. Even if the marines can do this 99 times of of 100, they still lose. The guard have the numerical capabilities to do this.

Ratbarf wrote:The reason for that being that every single Space Marine has multiple ways of getting to where they're needed as fast as possible. A chapter has enough rhinos for them all to ride them, enough bikes and landspeeders and jump packs for large numbers of the marines, and thunder and chibi hawks for both the marines and their AFV's. The Guard simply cannot match this. They exchange speed for size, the Space Marines are all about speed.

As for Space Marine supply issues, they would have a much easier time of it than the Guard, because they can simply steal stuff from the Guard.

There are more mechanized regiments than there are space marines. Guard cannot match the marines speed? There are more armored regiments than there are space marine rhinos. How does this equate to a marine victory? There are more Valkyries than there are marines. Again, Guard cannot match? The marines need to ALL be able to quickly get around the battlefield, because they lack the numbers to have specialized static forces. A luxury the Guard definately enjoys. Even if you took away every regiment that wasn't mechanized, airborne, or armored, the Guard then still outnumbers the space marines by thousands to one.

I also seem to have forgotten that Boltguns can use lasgun power packs as ammuntion. Even with all the Guard around, you still think that the supply lines (which the Guard would obviously understand the need to heavy defend them) would be minimally defended? No, an attack on them would result in losses the marines couldn't handle.

Ratbarf wrote:And a final note on the outnumbering, the Guard would never be able to bring their entire numbers down upon the Space Marines at once, an appropriate analogy I feel is that of the ocean breaking upon a rock, yes, if the ocean took all of its mass and stuck on that rock, that rocks obliterated, but it can't so it just smashes against it until the rock is worn down.

However, Space Marines aren't rocks.

In this theoretical situation, yes they are rocks. This analogy you gave actually mirrors what the Guard supporters have been saying all along. Read the bold. Sounds exactly like what we have been saying. But in this analogy, what hope does the rock have in somehow "defeating" the ocean? The rock beating the ocean sounds about as rediculous as the space marines beating the Imperial Guard.

Also, too all of you who have been saying so: Screaming POWER ARMOR repeatedly doesn't make for an arguement. Especially when power armor isn't as strong as you think it is. If it was nigh un prenetrable, then why haven't the marines completely purified the entire galaxy at this point? The Imperial Guard is the largest organized fighting force in the entire galaxy.

Melissia wrote:

Ratbarf wrote:Transcontinental doesn't mean capable of hitting something as far away as the moon.

Actually I would say that it's harder to do transcontinental barrages than to hit something in space.

Lack of gravity and friction makes calculations quite easy, and you aren't trying to fire in such a way that the missile curves across a planet.

But the ICBMs would not have that problem anyway, and again, if the Marines have naval assets, so do the gaurd.

True, but the distances involved means that the Battle Barges are going to have a couple of days warning to get out of the way.

Melissia wrote:Why does everyone assume thunderhawks won't be shot down? Frankly it's just rather weird.

aka_mythos wrote:This notion of the battle is the flaw of the arguement, becasue it purposefully excludes the biggest advantage of one of the two sides

An advantage which wouldn't even help them anyway, but if you want to include naval battles, then the Imperial Navy gets included because that's how the Guard gets around and frankly?

In the posed hypothetical by the OP, the Marines are the attackers. So the IG didn't have to get around the Marines came to them. In the OP's post its explicitly between the IG and the Space Marines, and not the IG and Navy against the Space Marines.

For Marines to attack they'd have to have their ships. For their to be a land battle of any sort, the Imperial Navy couldn't be present or else it'd simple preclude a Space Marine attack.

The Imperial Navy is not explicitly part of the Imperial Guard, but the Space Marine battle fleets are explicitly part of their chapter.

Melissia wrote:The Imperial Navy woudl crush the Space Marine navy under sheer numbers and firepower as well.

Which even I pointed out, but that's part of my point... if its Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy vs. Space Marines, its no contest, marines lose and we do not have a hypothetical scenario we have a stacked fight. If its just IG vs. SM as posed , the IG still have a chance barring the SM use of an exterminatus capable weapons.

Melissia wrote:Space Marines are too tiny of a force to do anything but bruise the Imperial Guard war machine. The numbers difference is literally that great. There's not really anything they can do about it

As I posed, if the Space Marines needed to fight the Imperial Guard, they'd never engage them directly. They'd perform hit and run attacks on the ships carrying food to support the IG and let the IG starve. Within a day a force of a trillion guardsmen would deplete a planets food supply... two weeks later they'd be resorting to extremes.

aka_mythos wrote:In the OP's post its explicitly between the IG and the Space Marines, and not the IG and Navy against the Space Marines.

I don't care. If the Marines get naval assets, so do the Guard. The separation between the Guard and Navy isn't as great as you think.

If you must attempt to weasel your way in to having orbital bombardment, then I would argue that the Marine naval assets are tied up and unable to do so because of the navy, in the same way that you are trying to claim that the navy would not be able to participate.

aka_mythos wrote:They'd perform hit and run attacks on the ships carrying food to support the IG and let the IG starve.

... and then get annihilated by the navy. If you're going to do naval battles, do naval battles.

Melissia wrote:Actually I would say that it's harder to do transcontinental barrages than to hit something in space.

Lack of gravity and friction makes calculations quite easy, and you aren't trying to fire in such a way that the missile curves across a planet.

Thats so wrong I don't know where to begin.

You are, however, correct in that the actual battle would be fought in space. And the Navy would win handily.

Kaldor wrote:

Melissia wrote:Actually I would say that it's harder to do transcontinental barrages than to hit something in space.

Lack of gravity and friction makes calculations quite easy, and you aren't trying to fire in such a way that the missile curves across a planet.

Thats so wrong I don't know where to begin.

If the projectile has escape velocity, then hitting a target in space is simply a matter of trial and error. If it doesn't, then how would it hit something from halfway across the planet to begin with?

There are more Valkyries than there are marines.

Those are attached Naval assets, not Imperial Guard. We're not allowed to bring along the mechanicum, you can't bring the navy.

In this theoretical situation, yes they are rocks. This analogy you gave actually mirrors what the Guard supporters have been saying all along.

I think you forgot the part where the Space Marines aren't rocks. If I had to do a more accurate analogy, the Imperial Guard is X liters of water running down a trough where the Space Marines are a steel wedge stuck in the middle. The water would have to wear down the the steel wedge before it ran out of liters.

Edited Addition: Does anyone know how fast Imperial Augeries are in comparison to the speed of light? I ask because of the Guard shooting stuff into space thing. The only thing that would have a hope in heck of hitting a target which can change its course would have to be either self guiding and propelling, or a laser weapon. Lasers are however moot if Imperial Augeries give the Battle barges enough forewarning. As for self guiding, that's what interceptors are for.

Ratbarf wrote:Those are attached Naval assets, not Imperial Guard.

They're used by the Guard on a regular basis. The distinction is kinda stupid.

As for why you can't bring in "the mechanicus", if you want to do that, then the Guard can as well because both make use of them (the Guard makes far more use of them however).

Ratbarf wrote:I think you forgot the part where the Space Marines aren't rocks. If I had to do a more accurate analogy, the Imperial Guard is X liters of water running down a trough where the Space Marines are a steel wedge stuck in the middle. The water would have to wear down the the steel wedge before it ran out of liters.

That's nonsense. The Guard is capable of wiping out entire squads of marines in a single artillery barrage. Maybe if the water was actually acid...

Melissia wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Melissia wrote:Actually I would say that it's harder to do transcontinental barrages than to hit something in space.

Lack of gravity and friction makes calculations quite easy, and you aren't trying to fire in such a way that the missile curves across a planet.

Thats so wrong I don't know where to begin.

If the projectile has escape velocity, then hitting a target in space is simply a matter of trial and error. If it doesn't, then how would it hit something from halfway across the planet to begin with?

I was going to write out a long ridiculous analogy about trial and error and hitting targets in space with a sarcastic "yeah sure" in there, but I can't be bothered.

No, trial and error will not allow you to hit something in space just because you have escape velocity. It's vastly more complicated than that. It's also totally off-topic at this point.

Ratbarf wrote:

There are more Valkyries than there are marines.

Those are attached Naval assets, not Imperial Guard. We're not allowed to bring along the mechanicum, you can't bring the navy.

In this theoretical situation, yes they are rocks. This analogy you gave actually mirrors what the Guard supporters have been saying all along.

I think you forgot the part where the Space Marines aren't rocks. If I had to do a more accurate analogy, the Imperial Guard is X liters of water running down a trough where the Space Marines are a steel wedge stuck in the middle. The water would have to wear down the the steel wedge before it ran out of liters.

Edited Addition: Does anyone know how fast Imperial Augeries are in comparison to the speed of light? I ask because of the Guard shooting stuff into space thing. The only thing that would have a hope in heck of hitting a target which can change its course would have to be either self guiding and propelling, or a laser weapon. Lasers are however moot if Imperial Augeries give the Battle barges enough forewarning. As for self guiding, that's what interceptors are for.

They are attached to Imperial Guard regiments on a regular basis. I wasn't speaking of all the navy's Valkyries, I was speaking of just those attached to the Guard.

And your analogy of the ocean is excellent. And the Marines are rocks. But your other analogy would imply that the Imperial Guard is largely ineffective agianst marines, which is not true

Melissia wrote:

Ratbarf wrote:Those are attached Naval assets, not Imperial Guard.

They're used by the Guard on a regular basis. The distinction is kinda stupid.

The distinction may be stupid but it is a distinction, Valkyries are in general Navy, you can't take those they're not Imperial Guard. There are however a few units that have integral Valkyries, those are fine, they're Guard.

As for why you can't bring in "the mechanicus", if you want to do that, then the Guard can as well because both make use of them (the Guard makes far more use of them however).

The reason I brought that up was to illustrate how ludicrous it would be for the Guard to bring Naval assets or the Navy when it says explicitly Guard and Guard only.

Ratbarf wrote:I think you forgot the part where the Space Marines aren't rocks. If I had to do a more accurate analogy, the Imperial Guard is X liters of water running down a trough where the Space Marines are a steel wedge stuck in the middle. The water would have to wear down the the steel wedge before it ran out of liters.

That's nonsense. The Guard is capable of wiping out entire squads of marines in a single artillery barrage. Maybe if the water was actually acid...

The point of an analogy is to aide in the illustration of the point, it is not the point in itself.

Kaldor wrote:No, trial and error will not allow you to hit something in space just because you have escape velocity. It's vastly more complicated than that. It's also totally off-topic at this point.

Maybe, but it's far more interesting than the actual topic. I'm no physics major for sure, though.

Melissia wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:In the OP's post its explicitly between the IG and the Space Marines, and not the IG and Navy against the Space Marines.

I don't care. If the Marines get naval assets, so do the Guard. The separation between the Guard and Navy isn't as great as you think.

The IG and IN are not an integrated entity. They are not the same thing. The fact you don't care doesn't change the discussion. "I don't care" is a take your ball and go home sort of response.

The SM are not a pure land army, the IG are, thus the IG is dependent on the IN, while the SM are not. That is an advantage.

Melissia wrote:
If you must attempt to weasel your way in to having orbital bombardment, then I would argue that the Marine naval assets are tied up and unable to do so because of the navy, in the same way that you are trying to claim that the navy would not be able to participate.

aka_mythos wrote:They'd perform hit and run attacks on the ships carrying food to support the IG and let the IG starve.

... and then get annihilated by the navy. If you're going to do naval battles, do naval battles.

Yes you're right. We should ignore naval battles. The marines would simply wait in space and let the IG starve to death since the non-presence of Naval assets would prevent the delivery of food.

The issue as I see it, is IF you frame the battle as a pure land war, then you've simply framed it explicitly so the SM lose, since by declaring it a pure land battle you prevent the Space Marines from utilizing the fullness of their Chapter's resources. Saying the Imperial Navy isn't present, does not however make the same imposition on the Imperial Guard, it simply imposes the same buraeucratic limitation that exist in the fluff, by virtue of seperate and distinct command hierarchies.

To put this one more way... Space Marines without ships is as counter-intuitive as the notion of Imperial Guard without their tanks. Both are just silly impositions.

Ratbarf wrote:The distinction may be stupid but it is a distinction, Valkyries are in general Navy, you can't take those they're not Imperial Guard.

Again, it's a nonsensical distinction, so I don't buy it even for an instant.

Ratbarf wrote:The reason I brought that up was to illustrate how ludicrous it would be for the Guard to bring Naval assets or the Navy when it says explicitly Guard and Guard only.

You failed.

Ratbarf wrote:The point of an analogy is to aide in the illustration of the point, it is not the point in itself.

The point was nonsense, so it's hard for the analogy to work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

aka_mythos wrote:The IG and IN are not an integrated entity.

In actual warfare, the effect is the same.

aka_mythos wrote:The issue as I see it, is IF you frame the battle as a pure land war

Because it is.

I think it's gotten to the point where we're arguing semantics......

Melissia wrote:

Ratbarf wrote:The distinction may be stupid but it is a distinction, Valkyries are in general Navy, you can't take those they're not Imperial Guard.

Again, it's a nonsensical distinction, so I don't buy it even for an instant.

Ratbarf wrote:The reason I brought that up was to illustrate how ludicrous it would be for the Guard to bring Naval assets or the Navy when it says explicitly Guard and Guard only.

You failed.

Ratbarf wrote:The point of an analogy is to aide in the illustration of the point, it is not the point in itself.

The point was nonsense, so it's hard for the analogy to work.

...

aka_mythos wrote:The issue as I see it, is IF you frame the battle as a pure land war

Because it is.

Now you're acting quite puerile
There is no rational to your statements.

Melissia wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:The IG and IN are not an integrated entity.

In actual warfare, the effect is the same.

No they aren't. A perfect example is the US Marines, they have their own fighter jets to provided ground attack, the US Army does not. When the Marines call in air support average time to engage the ground target is less then when the Army calls the Air Force. This is because Marine jets tend to stay close to their ground forces, while the Air Force has larger zones covered by a few orbiting and waiting aircraft. In the last 10 years alots bean done to shrink that time to meet the Army's need and save lives, but there are still incidences where its taken an hour for the Air Force to show up, as aircraft are prioritized to the Air Force and not the Armys needs... when the Army called for air support it works its way up through the Army chain of command and down through the Air Forces. With Marines there is a single intermediate dispatcher. This is the difference between how an integrated and non-integrated force work.

Let's put it this way, there's a good chance Ward would write the fluff for the scenario, at which point the Space Marines win and then the Emperor wakes up, gets off his Golden toilet and throws a huge ice cream party for the Chaos Gods, at which point Gork and Mork show up and crash said party while Lorgar weeps in the corner for not being invited by his daddy.

And yes I know and no I don't care.

Ignatius wrote:

Ratbarf wrote:I think that a lot of the argument that is circular here is that whatever the Space Marines use, the Guard will simply reply with their slightly less effective, but much more numerically superior weapons. This is only true to a certain extent. Yes the Guard have overall superiority, but I doubt that they could achieve local superiority over the Space Marines. I say this because every chapter of Marines should be able to fight on say, 10 battlefields at once. That's one per company, each of those companies are capable of beating, quite handily I might add, several regiments of Imperial Guard at any given time.

Do you have a source for this assumption? Because I would argue against this tooth and nail just like many of you are about the Space Marines beating the Imperial Guard. 100 marines beating tens of thousands of Guardsmen? Nice try.

Ratbarf wrote:Now obviously there are rock paper scissors issues with this premise. A Battle company would likely die to a tank regiment, an Assault Company would likely die to an anti-air regiment, On the other hand, and Assault company would likely murder the crap out of an Artillery regiment, or a light infantry regiment, and do well against any unarmoured infantry regiments. A Devastator company would likely excel against a Superheavy regiment, and would almost definately wipe a tank regiment, or Armoured regiment. A bike assault company would wipe a roughrider regiment, and likely artillery and armoured regiments as well. What I'm getting at essentially is that Space Marines have a hard counter for everything the Imperial Guard can throw at them, and the Imperial Guard have a counter to pretty much everything the space marines can throw at them, aside from possibly teleporters and terminators. So the force that would defeat the other would be the one that is able to always deploy their rock where the enemy deploys a scissors, and keep their rocks away from the enemy's paper. I feel the Space Marines can do this to such a greater degree than the Guard, that the Space Marines would win.

I agree with the rock paper scissors analogy. But every kind of space marine company would die to a tank regiment, as would every kind of space marine company dying to enough Infantry regiments. Saying "I feel the space marines can do this to such a greater degree" doesn't make any sort of sound arguement and defeats the purpose of the entire paragraph before it. Here's the kicker though, you said that the force that can always deploy their rock against the enemy's scissor will win. Even if the marines can do this 99 times of of 100, they still lose. The guard have the numerical capabilities to do this.

Ratbarf wrote:The reason for that being that every single Space Marine has multiple ways of getting to where they're needed as fast as possible. A chapter has enough rhinos for them all to ride them, enough bikes and landspeeders and jump packs for large numbers of the marines, and thunder and chibi hawks for both the marines and their AFV's. The Guard simply cannot match this. They exchange speed for size, the Space Marines are all about speed.

As for Space Marine supply issues, they would have a much easier time of it than the Guard, because they can simply steal stuff from the Guard.

There are more mechanized regiments than there are space marines. Guard cannot match the marines speed? There are more armored regiments than there are space marine rhinos. How does this equate to a marine victory? There are more Valkyries than there are marines. Again, Guard cannot match? The marines need to ALL be able to quickly get around the battlefield, because they lack the numbers to have specialized static forces. A luxury the Guard definately enjoys. Even if you took away every regiment that wasn't mechanized, airborne, or armored, the Guard then still outnumbers the space marines by thousands to one.

I also seem to have forgotten that Boltguns can use lasgun power packs as ammuntion. Even with all the Guard around, you still think that the supply lines (which the Guard would obviously understand the need to heavy defend them) would be minimally defended? No, an attack on them would result in losses the marines couldn't handle.

Ratbarf wrote:And a final note on the outnumbering, the Guard would never be able to bring their entire numbers down upon the Space Marines at once, an appropriate analogy I feel is that of the ocean breaking upon a rock, yes, if the ocean took all of its mass and stuck on that rock, that rocks obliterated, but it can't so it just smashes against it until the rock is worn down.


However, Space Marines aren't rocks.

In this theoretical situation, yes they are rocks. This analogy you gave actually mirrors what the Guard supporters have been saying all along. Read the bold. Sounds exactly like what we have been saying. But in this analogy, what hope does the rock have in somehow "defeating" the ocean? The rock beating the ocean sounds about as rediculous as the space marines beating the Imperial Guard.

Also, too all of you who have been saying so: Screaming POWER ARMOR repeatedly doesn't make for an arguement. Especially when power armor isn't as strong as you think it is. If it was nigh un prenetrable, then why haven't the marines completely purified the entire galaxy at this point? The Imperial Guard is the largest organized fighting force in the entire galaxy.

Do tell me the exact physiology of power armor since you seem to know.

Aye it is (or would be?) nigh unpenetrable. the reason for them not having "completely purified the entire galaxy" is a mix of the arguments you've made in the guards favor so far. (vastly inferior numbers, limited ground-based artillery support etc.)

Brother Thomas wrote:What do you know about tactics. Lets put a huge hulking 7 foot tall beast with augmented muscles and and bones and put him in a full uparmored suit, Now lets take their fallen comrades and put them in walking tanks, otherwise known as dreadnaughts. Hell while were at it lets throw in some predators. Ok now we have the guardsmen with minimal armor, a chestguard and a helmet. Oh and a lasgun. In so many books i've read the most a lasgun does to a set of power armor is mess with the electronics a small amount, but not even rendering unusable. Therefore you can shoot as much firepower you want,

Which mark of Lasgun? Necromunda? Mars? Triplex? No. 98 Lucius? M36? The Accatran Mk IV? They all vary in power. To take the No. 98 Lucius as an example, it's a slow firing lasgun but it fires at a higher power setting than most lasguns and has a greater impact. The way lasguns work is to dispatch a high powered, intense beam of light that, on contact, becomes a mixture of kinetic & heat energy. It does more than 'mess with the electronics'. It vaporises moisture to the extent that, on a human, it blows huge chunks out of them. Ten lasguns firing at an Astartes will overload the 'electronics' which the Astartes will not want because... well the systems may have to reboot, leaving the Astartes crippled & unable to do anything because the servos in the armour can't move. This is what happens when Astartes teleport in Power Armour - the huge mass of energy shuts down the systems & they can't do anything until the armours systems reboot.

Even if the lasguns don't penetrate, break or buckle the ceramite armour, the effect they have on mass is, for the Astartes, literally staggering. Ever read about men in plate mail walking forward into the 'hail' of shafts loosed from English & Welsh warbows? How, even if the arrows could not penetrate they had more than enough force to make those knights stagger. Astartes, being stronger & heavier than a man in plate mail, will be steadier against a few impacts, but when a hundred Guardsmen are all firing their lasguns at an Astartes? He's going to be knocked all over the shop.

Oh yes, almost forgot. Hellguns.

When you got elite space marines teleporting in on your position and tearing average men's limbs from there bodys, you're really not going to be able to do much. Not to mention chapters with special abilities like the blood angels death company. They are beserkers that do not feel pain. They can have no legs and still be shootng there boltgun in fury taking out imperial guardsmen. Not to mention IG's have emotions, they can be routed, they have fear. The Astartes do not. They can flip the switch between mindless killing and peace. Lets see what else. Can the imperial guard tote around heavy machine guns in there bare hands? Hm I think not. They will easily be outmaneuvered. At best they have heavy machine guns mounted on tripods. I'd love to see them pick up all the equipment and move faster then a sprinting astartes devastator. Not going to happen. Oh lets not even get into the assault marines, unleashing chaos among the ranks of the IG who are already losing there minds under the suppresion of the devastators and the tactical marines manuevering and flanking endlessly.

Let's talk about the Mordian Iron Guard & the Praetorian Guard. The regiments from both Mordian & Praetoria fight in ranks and are amongst the most disciplined soldiers in the Imperial Guard. They will continue to fire their lasguns & obey orders even when taking large numbers of casualties - why? It's the same reason why soldiers stood in line trading fire with each other during c18/c19 - training. They're trained to stand in the line, take the casualties, keep firing, let the discipline & training override the instinct for self-preservation. If the Mordians & Praetorians can fight in that way, in their ranks, firing disciplined volleys against massed hordes of Tyranids or Orks and not break ranks, they're just going to laugh at the Astartes. If their Sergeants let them have that minor lapse in discipline.

But lets look closely at the cream of the crop - when it comes to morale & feeling no fear, it's the Death Korp to who we must turn. Why? In general the Guard are fantastically brave - they hold the line & win against gruesome, gribbly enemies who are more powerful than the average Guardsman in his flak armour but the Death Korp take this to the extreme. Astartes are 'modified' to know no fear. The Death Korp don't understand the meaning of fear. In the same way they don't understand the meaning of the words 'retreat', 'fallback' and 'defeat'. Why is this? Well Krieg was once a particularly average Hive world until it's governing body broke from the Imperium in m40. This sparked a 500-year civil war between the loyalists & 'traitors'. The loyalists won but Krieg was devestated. It's surface was so soaked in isotopes so deadly they make Sarin look like a cure for the common cold and Sarin is one of the nastiest things mankind has ever concieved or created to date. I digress. To survive on Krieg requires incredible toughness, discipline & the constant use of protective equipment. When the Death Korp regiments are nearing the end of their basic training (essentially from a young age they're trained to become Korpsmen & indoctrinated in the Imperial Faith) they do several months of live fire & battlefield exercises to weed out the weakest of the strong - the weak will already have died in basic training because Kriegs training is like that - if you fall by the way you die.

Because of their planets past transgressions the Death Korp believe they must pay a blood debt to the Imperium. This translates as, roughly, 'And They Shall Know No Fear.' Korpsmen have just one wish, one desire and one belief - that they will die for their Emperor and thus help to repay the debt Krieg owes. This happens to make the Death Korp rather unique because, besides the fact they will never run away, they are so zealous that they have Commissars attached to them to prevent them from sacrificing themselves without gain because the Death Korp will do that, such as their need to die for their Emperor.

So lets take a Company of Astartes, of a Codex Chapter, so 100 Astartes, and put them up against a Siege Regiment of the Death Korp in a meeting engagement - both forces are advancing towards each other. Who is going to win? The 100,000-200,000 strong (or even more) Siege Regiment of the Death Korp with their powerful Lucius Pattern No. 98 Lasguns, frag & krak grenades, their Grenadiers armed with Hellguns, the regiments massive amount of flamers, grenade launchers, plasmaguns, meltaguns, marksman weapons, heavy bolters, autocannons, lascannons, mortars, missile launchers, Earthshakers, Thudd guns, heavy mortars, MOLE weapons, Centaurs, Ryza-pattern Leman Russ tanks, Macharius/Malcador heavy tanks, or the 100 Astartes with their tiny amount of heavy weapons, their bolters, melee weapons & just their power armour to defend them against all that massed firepower staring right at them & able to pound them before the Astartes can close to effective range with their bolters? If a Challenger 2 tank can record kills at 5km in our present timeline, just think what a Leman-Russ is going to do with its weapons.

Even if the Astartes attack on a narrow front, and lets say they're just against the Death Korp infantry, starting the fight at effective range of their bolters - how many is that Astartes Company going to lose after it's destroyed just one Death Korp company? That Death Korp company could be anything beyond 1,000 men. Even if, by some chance, the Company of Astartes kill off that regiment, by some fluke of chance (because they can't carry enough ammunition to kill all 200,000 of the Korpsmen and the Death Korp are the best bayonet/melee fighters in the Guard so won't go down easily, especially as their morale won't break), the Death Korp wouldn't care - after all, another 10 regiments could be being raised on Krieg at that very time thanks to the vitae-womb technique.

Endstate, The fire and maneuver of the astartes would DECIMATE any IG size element. The technology difference is just so vast that it doesn't even make any sense to compare them. The IG are supplementary troops. Cannon fodder. end of story

No, I'm sorry, but the Guard are not cannon fodder. They are the first, foremost and only line of defence for the Imperium. They fight & win more wars than the Astartes are involved in, are capable of taking planets on their own, defending them and really thrashing the enemies of mankind. The Astartes just take all the glory by accomplishing far lesser achievements.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:

Ignatius wrote:

Ratbarf wrote:I think that a lot of the argument that is circular here is that whatever the Space Marines use, the Guard will simply reply with their slightly less effective, but much more numerically superior weapons. This is only true to a certain extent. Yes the Guard have overall superiority, but I doubt that they could achieve local superiority over the Space Marines. I say this because every chapter of Marines should be able to fight on say, 10 battlefields at once. That's one per company, each of those companies are capable of beating, quite handily I might add, several regiments of Imperial Guard at any given time.

Do you have a source for this assumption? Because I would argue against this tooth and nail just like many of you are about the Space Marines beating the Imperial Guard. 100 marines beating tens of thousands of Guardsmen? Nice try.

Ratbarf wrote:Now obviously there are rock paper scissors issues with this premise. A Battle company would likely die to a tank regiment, an Assault Company would likely die to an anti-air regiment, On the other hand, and Assault company would likely murder the crap out of an Artillery regiment, or a light infantry regiment, and do well against any unarmoured infantry regiments. A Devastator company would likely excel against a Superheavy regiment, and would almost definately wipe a tank regiment, or Armoured regiment. A bike assault company would wipe a roughrider regiment, and likely artillery and armoured regiments as well. What I'm getting at essentially is that Space Marines have a hard counter for everything the Imperial Guard can throw at them, and the Imperial Guard have a counter to pretty much everything the space marines can throw at them, aside from possibly teleporters and terminators. So the force that would defeat the other would be the one that is able to always deploy their rock where the enemy deploys a scissors, and keep their rocks away from the enemy's paper. I feel the Space Marines can do this to such a greater degree than the Guard, that the Space Marines would win.

I agree with the rock paper scissors analogy. But every kind of space marine company would die to a tank regiment, as would every kind of space marine company dying to enough Infantry regiments. Saying "I feel the space marines can do this to such a greater degree" doesn't make any sort of sound arguement and defeats the purpose of the entire paragraph before it. Here's the kicker though, you said that the force that can always deploy their rock against the enemy's scissor will win. Even if the marines can do this 99 times of of 100, they still lose. The guard have the numerical capabilities to do this.

Ratbarf wrote:The reason for that being that every single Space Marine has multiple ways of getting to where they're needed as fast as possible. A chapter has enough rhinos for them all to ride them, enough bikes and landspeeders and jump packs for large numbers of the marines, and thunder and chibi hawks for both the marines and their AFV's. The Guard simply cannot match this. They exchange speed for size, the Space Marines are all about speed.

As for Space Marine supply issues, they would have a much easier time of it than the Guard, because they can simply steal stuff from the Guard.

There are more mechanized regiments than there are space marines. Guard cannot match the marines speed? There are more armored regiments than there are space marine rhinos. How does this equate to a marine victory? There are more Valkyries than there are marines. Again, Guard cannot match? The marines need to ALL be able to quickly get around the battlefield, because they lack the numbers to have specialized static forces. A luxury the Guard definately enjoys. Even if you took away every regiment that wasn't mechanized, airborne, or armored, the Guard then still outnumbers the space marines by thousands to one.

I also seem to have forgotten that Boltguns can use lasgun power packs as ammuntion. Even with all the Guard around, you still think that the supply lines (which the Guard would obviously understand the need to heavy defend them) would be minimally defended? No, an attack on them would result in losses the marines couldn't handle.

Ratbarf wrote:And a final note on the outnumbering, the Guard would never be able to bring their entire numbers down upon the Space Marines at once, an appropriate analogy I feel is that of the ocean breaking upon a rock, yes, if the ocean took all of its mass and stuck on that rock, that rocks obliterated, but it can't so it just smashes against it until the rock is worn down.


However, Space Marines aren't rocks.

In this theoretical situation, yes they are rocks. This analogy you gave actually mirrors what the Guard supporters have been saying all along. Read the bold. Sounds exactly like what we have been saying. But in this analogy, what hope does the rock have in somehow "defeating" the ocean? The rock beating the ocean sounds about as rediculous as the space marines beating the Imperial Guard.

Also, too all of you who have been saying so: Screaming POWER ARMOR repeatedly doesn't make for an arguement. Especially when power armor isn't as strong as you think it is. If it was nigh un prenetrable, then why haven't the marines completely purified the entire galaxy at this point? The Imperial Guard is the largest organized fighting force in the entire galaxy.

Do tell me the exact physiology of power armor since you seem to know.

Aye it is (or would be?) nigh unpenetrable. the reason for them not having "completely purified the entire galaxy" is a mix of the arguments you've made in the guards favor so far. (vastly inferior numbers, limited ground-based artillery support etc.)

I never claimed to be an expert on power armor. It seems that you would know more than I, but seeing as how you claim it to be nigh unpenetrable, then I question that knowledge to a degree.

What I do know is that it is not capable of being untouched by lasgun fire, and it will eventually sustain high amounts of damage to the armor. I understand of the advanced life support and other technological systems found in it. And I do know that a single guardsmen has no chance of doing any harm (unless various joints and lenses are hit repeatedly) to a fully armored Astartes. I understand it can't take a battle cannon round, and I get that most all special and heavy weapons found in the guard will kill a space marine as well. Your interpretation of the armor capabilities seems to be further off than mine is.

And do keep in mind that I added that bit in there to respond to those who are posting that the Marines have power armor, and acting as if it renders any further discussion invalid without proposing any real expaination of why they think so.

Power armor is not "nigh un[sic]penetrable".

Never has been in 40k. Lasguns, autoguns, boltguns, sluggas/shootas, shuriken launchers, etc can all penetrate power armor to a certain degree and have been shown doing such in lore.

These threads are beyond goofy.

If the all the Space Marines somehow decided to rebel and fight all of the Imperial Guard... everyone will lose!

It is 'game over' for the Imperium at that point...

I'm fairly certain whoever recorded it would win.

The Space Marines have a couple of benefits over Guard;

1) Shock and Awe
2) Precision (Not super-precise) Drop Zones
3) Naval Support (Though 'Exterminatus' and 'Virus Bombing' are a no-no in this verses thread, though, technically, they would need a Inquisitor's signature of approval)
4) Speed (Whether deploying or hopping about)

The Imperual Guard have a couple benefits over Marines;

1) Numbers
2) More Numbers
3) Defensive Earthworks, Bunkers, AA emplacements, and the occasional 'Orbital Defense Laser'.
4) Armor Support
5) Weight of those numbers


During the first couple weeks of an invasion, the Space Marines would seem to be winning due to their effortless insertions and precision force, but the shock would fade and the Marines would slowly be ground down underneath bodies, bullets, treads, and shells. They could be the most Badassed Super Humans of All Time, but the numbers would simply overwhelm them to the point of multiple last stand scenarios.

Reading through this thread, I still keep coming back to this same conclusion.

There are millions (plural) of guardsmen for each and every Space Marine. Hundreds if not thousands or tens of thousands of generally better armed and armored tanks for every Space Marine tank.

To get that visually, open a word document, and just hold down the Period "." key for 508 pages. Then compare that to a single "."

That'll give you a visual representation of the weight of numbers.

Nothing the Space Marines can really put forth will overcome those sorts of odds, at least consistently.



The SM's can advance and destroy units, but they can't be everywhere or even most places and certainly not in force. Where an entire chapter wages war on one world, the rest of the system and 999 other Imperial systems are left open for the Imperial Guard to operate unmolested. Hell, even on one world, on a battlefront 2,000 kilometers wide (say, reminiscent of the Eastern Front in the second world war) there just aren't enough SM's in an entire chapter to adequately hold even a tenth of that line without gaps you could drive entire army groups and hundreds of thousands of troops through without issue. Astartes units would very quickly be encircled and surrounded, simply because there just aren't enough to be everywhere they need to be. The SM's unrealistically low numbers just do not work.

Lets also not forget that we cannot ignore the Imperial Navy. While not part of the Imperial Guard, both are part of the Departmento Munitorum, and share a common high command, one won't stand by if the other is under attack.