Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

KplKeegan wrote:

Brother Thomas wrote:No it isn't ridiculous, Space Marines fight to win and are not arrogant fools. Like I said they are tacticians. Secondly no one said the Space Marines were defending a planet either

And here I thought Brother_Coa and Tadashi were the only ones drinking the anointed Bolter Oil...

Space Marines lack numbers. Despite their surgical precision, Chapter Tactics, Codex Tactics, instructional drilling, space-to-ground insertions, Space Marines can't go far unless the enemy their attacking is distracted, which, in most casses, with the Imperial Guard.

Kaldor wrote: Space Marines just Teleport right onto it.

Not all Space Marines use teleportation. Only the most veteran, Elite units of the Space Marines are reserved the right to teleport into battle, with the aid of a beacon already on the surface. So just saying they can teleport right onto an objective is not telling the whole story.

One can assume that there are all kinds of comms trackers and sensory devices on Space Marine ships, not to mention good old local intelligence.

And yet, somehow the Imperial Augurs and Sensor Nets cannot pick up humongeous Battle Barges from space?

not worth my time

Brother Thomas wrote:

KplKeegan wrote: Awesome Sauce.

not worth my time

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/forums/show/31.page

Here's the door. Don't let it hit you in the head on your way out.

What do you know about tactics. Lets put a huge hulking 7 foot tall beast with augmented muscles and and bones and put him in a full uparmored suit, Now lets take their fallen comrades and put them in walking tanks, otherwise known as dreadnaughts. Hell while were at it lets throw in some predators. Ok now we have the guardsmen with minimal armor, a chestguard and a helmet. Oh and a lasgun. In so many books i've read the most a lasgun does to a set of power armor is mess with the electronics a small amount, but not even rendering unusable. Therefore you can shoot as much firepower you want, When you got elite space marines teleporting in on your position and tearing average men's limbs from there bodys, you're really not going to be able to do much. Not to mention chapters with special abilities like the blood angels death company. They are beserkers that do not feel pain. They can have no legs and still be shootng there boltgun in fury taking out imperial guardsmen. Not to mention IG's have emotions, they can be routed, they have fear. The Astartes do not. They can flip the switch between mindless killing and peace. Lets see what else. Can the imperial guard tote around heavy machine guns in there bare hands? Hm I think not. They will easily be outmaneuvered. At best they have heavy machine guns mounted on tripods. I'd love to see them pick up all the equipment and move faster then a sprinting astartes devastator. Not going to happen. Oh lets not even get into the assault marines, unleashing chaos among the ranks of the IG who are already losing there minds under the suppresion of the devastators and the tactical marines manuevering and flanking endlessly.

Endstate, The fire and maneuver of the astartes would DECIMATE any IG size element. The technology difference is just so vast that it doesn't even make any sense to compare them. The IG are supplementary troops. Cannon fodder. end of story

Recap main scenario (as some have lost sight of what it is)

Every single Imperial Guardsmen in the Imperium (and all their equipment, vehicales, you name it)

VS>

Every Single Spehess Meherine in the Imperium (along side all their equipment, vehicales etc)

This is a PLANETARY WAR. If you want Space combat go take that up with the boys who fly the space ships. (which is another topic all together, but my 2 cents say the Entire IMperial Navy can wipe away the SPace Marines navy, but thats another discussion all together! so stay on topic!)

You can leave the Battle boats at home. you can have your drop pods and all that alongside thunderhawks and such.

the arena is simple. a planet that is capable of holding everything on either side (which is impossible but lets throw out that variable shall we?) with citys for urban combat, open fields, swamps, jungles etc.



My opinion. The IG wins. they may take heavy losses (which is nearly always expected) but they will win. WIth the sheer firepower of their numberless tanks and infantry they would overwhelm the Space Marines. there are more details (and they have been discussed at length by many.) but still IG will crush the Space Marines.

now... GO!

Okay they can have endless #'s all the want. But the fact of the matter is when an IG see's his best friends gut's displayed all over the floor and a ravaging Space Marine coming at him next... Well lets just say morale is going to be BROKEN. I wouldn't be surprised if the IG just gave up and surrendered. But we all know what happens when people surrender to the space marines Anyhow the Adeptus Astartes have no fear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KplKeegan wrote:

Brother Thomas wrote:

KplKeegan wrote: Awesome Sauce.

not worth my time

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/forums/show/31.page

Here's the door. Don't let it hit you in the head on your way out.

Interesting, You cannot even win a verbal debate and you expect your weak IG to win. Mind you they are noble in nature, just no match to the Astartes

Brother Thomas wrote:What do you know about tactics. Lets put a huge hulking 7 foot tall beast with augmented muscles and and bones and put him in a full uparmored suit, Now lets take their fallen comrades and put them in walking tanks, otherwise known as dreadnaughts. Hell while were at it lets throw in some predators. Ok now we have the guardsmen with minimal armor, a chestguard and a helmet. Oh and a lasgun. In so many books i've read the most a lasgun does to a set of power armor is mess with the electronics a small amount, but not even rendering unusable. Therefore you can shoot as much firepower you want, When you got elite space marines teleporting in on your position and tearing average men's limbs from there bodys, you're really not going to be able to do much. Not to mention chapters with special abilities like the blood angels death company. They are beserkers that do not feel pain. They can have no legs and still be shootng there boltgun in fury taking out imperial guardsmen. Not to mention IG's have emotions, they can be routed, they have fear. The Astartes do not. They can flip the switch between mindless killing and peace. Lets see what else. Can the imperial guard tote around heavy machine guns in there bare hands? Hm I think not. They will easily be outmaneuvered. At best they have heavy machine guns mounted on tripods. I'd love to see them pick up all the equipment and move faster then a sprinting astartes devastator. Not going to happen. Oh lets not even get into the assault marines, unleashing chaos among the ranks of the IG who are already losing there minds under the suppresion of the devastators and the tactical marines manuevering and flanking endlessly.

Endstate, The fire and maneuver of the astartes would DECIMATE any IG size element. The technology difference is just so vast that it doesn't even make any sense to compare them. The IG are supplementary troops. Cannon fodder. end of story

you seem to have forgotten that most IG regiments also have acess to sniper vairant las (hotshots goes thourgh power armor), lascannons, autocannons, plasmas, meltas, rockte launchers and Leman Russes. Also, the power armor DOES have gaps in which bayonnet can infiltrate. We are not saying that a SM would lose to a guardmen 1v1. But all Sm chapters (1k IIRC) against the billions of IG regiments (aerial, armour, heavy infantry, artillery, light infantry, etc.), the SM would lose because of the sheer number and mass of firepower thrown at them.

Morale might be an issue as said before though. If the Astartes gets into CC, things will get bloody. Now the quesiton is how does the Lord general sees Firendly fire, because entangling Sms in CC then firing Earthshaker rounds on that position will anihilate the Astartes. Lascannons will get trough Land raiders, Banebaldes > LandRaiders. A couple of Leman Russes > Land Raiders.

We are saying the SMs would give heavy casualties to the guards, BUT, in comparison to the trilions of guardsmen, even if the SMs kills 10 billions of them, sheer weight will win the fight.

How ever, if the Astartes manages to cut the Head of the command chain, chances are the IGs won't be able to coordinate well enough and could manage to cripple the IGs and win an attrition war using guerilla like tactics (always hitting at the spot where the IGs are the weakest)

Ignatius wrote:@aka_mythos

You were speaking about the maneuverability of the Space Marines. He wasn't talking about the reinforcement options so much as the ability to redeploy to other areas, which, the Drop Pod clearly is incapable of doing. Where as the Valkyrie can simply come down and pick up a squad to move them to a new location. Which is a huge part of "maneuverability".

No he wasn't... if you go back through all the quotes he began by asserting that IG don't need drop pods because Valkyries do the same thing. I then posed that they do not, since Valkries still rely on aerodynamic re-entry and drop pods are direct ballistic. He accepted that as a superior attribute, but then posed the re-deployability as an advantage over the drop pod. I then posted this:

ME wrote:7) Drop pods are a "here and now" asset. While a thunderhawk may need to extract a drop pod, its more a case of weighing the risk of losing a drop pod vs loosing many more units. In real life what does the soldier on the ground need reinforcements now or reinforcements 10-15 minutes from now? Win the battle and it doesn't matter you need to land a thunderhawk.

Reasserting the separate and distinct design intent of drop pods over valkyries and emphasizing the point that Marines have versatility because they can also send Thunderhawks, at the same time even.

Ignatius wrote:
Also, you said, "Second the number of Valkyries in a given task force are generally insufficient to land all Imperial Guard, they simply rely on much larger landers to bring planet-side the majority of forces. This general scarcity is why they're largely reserved for Storm Troopers."

There are not supposed to be enough Valkyries to land the entire guard regiment, that would be a huge waste of resources. Again, we aren't speaking of bringing troops planet side. We are speaking of getting troops where they need to be as fast and as reliably as possible.

Except that's where you're wrong my line of conversation started because he posted this:

Unit1126PLL wrote:
...
3) The IG can drop from orbit too, in Valkyries.
4) The Guard can fly in on Valkyries.
..
7) The IG don't need drop-pods, they use Valkyries.

Ignatius wrote:
Where the Imperial Guard's method of reinforcing and redeploying allows them to be both dropped off and picked up, the Astartes only allows them to be dropped off. Which means that if they are needed a couple minutes later in a new place, they are going to have to literally run there.

I'm insisting that when redeployability is important SM have the resources to send Thunderhawks, but also the advantage of getting reinforcements more quickly if its time sensitive by drop pod. They have a choice, while IG do not. That is versatility and flexibility the IG can't buy. What good is the Valkyrie that arrives 10 minutes late?

Ignatius wrote:
Your last sentence confuses me. I'm curious as to why you said that Valkyries are usually reserved for storm troopers. Because this is something that is made up. Partly because storm trooper squads, companies, and regiments aren't a part of a regiment other than their own. They are lent to regiments that are in need much like Valkyries are. Seeing as how Valkyries are MUCH more commonplace in the Guard as there are storm troopers, then this would be statistically impossible.

Stormtroopers don't just fall out of the air... they're jumping from something. That was just to say that. They are a higher value asset than a platoon and would generally get the higher priority.

Part of the confusion is the context in which I'm discussing Valkyries and how plentiful Valkyries are actually supposed to be. In planetfall valkyries would generally be reserved for airborne regiments such as Stormtroopers or Elysians, but the vast majority of IG land in the big fortress class landers. I keep saying "general scarcity" because even though there are alot of them, in proportion to non-airborne regiments (ie a regiment that doesn't have 1:1 valkyries to infantry) the distribution is going to be significantly slim, such that the Navy averages 1 Valkyrie per company or fewer. While IG can hold back the Valkyries as a reserve, they just generally wouldn't arrive as quickly as SM could choose to deploy assets.

Ignatius wrote:
It is implied that "Imperial Guard vs Space Marines" means all the Imperial Guard vs all the Space Marines as had been talked about in the first few pages of the thread.

First I'm not buying the whole every last IG vs every last SM line of thought... the IG would gridlock a planets airspace and overwhelm radio bandwith. Any planet sufficiently large enough for all the IG to be present and allow for an actual battlefield would likely be so massive as to have a gravity well too extreme for the average human... let alone the disruption to the planets orbit caused by the added mass. I've made clear I don't believe the SM as presented would be able to stand up to the IG, but I'm insisting its because if they were represented with any degree of realism they would never fight those types of battles.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
1-4, 7, 9) I assumed it was all the guard in one place based on the title IG vs. SM. I suppose it should be clarified or we cannot proceed. And yes, once the landing is secured with Valkyries, they bring in larger landers. This isn't a flaw, it's force concentration at its finest.

The OP is asking about "respect" and if he poses anything, its the notion of the SM chapters attacking all the IG. So if we're going to make this about trying to re-frame the discussion, any conversation about IG shouldn't include Naval assets since they're the defenders and if the Navy were still present the SM attacking wouldn't even be able to occur. This is me writing in an intentionally dickish way... I wasn't writing in terms of any sort of hypothetical engagement as you've posed... and the OP only remotely... I acknowledged the weaknesses of the Astartes and was simply trying to point out they have advantages too. You and Ignatius are treating this as a philosophical attack on the IG, I don't see it that way, because I see an Imperium where the IG and SM compliment each other very well.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
5,10) There isn't a place where those scout units *aren't* because of how the Imperial Guard operates. Scout regiments are rarely fielded as one formation, but split into companies and even sections, each element being attached to a regiment that has no integral scouts. Therefore, where there is a Guard regiment, there are some Guard scouts from a different, more specialized regiment.

I was trying to point out the logistical concerns... that SM's advantage is that they can do more with whats a organizationally smaller entity; that if the IG were to bring forces to bear against the SM, they don't just have to bring more troops because of attrition, but that they have to bring more troops because of the size of their smallest dividable formation. The IG due to the logistics of space travel would have to commit and land a Regiment of scouts, even if they only needed 10 scouts. Meanwhile if SM need 10 scouts, that's all they have to worry about supporting. SM fighting IG would likely attack food transports and let them starve.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
1) Unlike Valkyries, they require orbital support. Why don't the Guard receive their orbital support?

Because as posed, the SM are attacking the IG not the IG and Navy.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
2) Although instantaneously arriving, again their extraction is not. They will be useful for reinforcement of beleaguered Marines, but they will not be able to move from that position once deployed without the application of additional assets. Throwing such assets into the fray puts them at the mercy of those oh-so-effective Air Defense Regiments, which are murder (as you can see from my point above).

Unlike the IG, the SM have the resources to deploy both; drop a drop pod and fly in a Thunderhawk at the same time but only arriving in time for extraction. My point is with that with SM it doesn't need to be an either or choice, they can always do both. Also remember space marine ships unlike the IG transport ships, have bombardment cannons allowing them to bombard planets before an attack. Remember this is IG vs SM not IG and IN vs SM.

SM are a fully integrated command structure, where they have their own ships, their own tactical airlift, and a variety of technologies IG do not. IG are dependent on the Imperial Navy and its separate and distinct bureaucracy. The IG are a dedicated ground army and are a fully separable entity from the Imperial Navy.

Brother Thomas wrote:Not to mention IG's have emotions, they can be routed, they have fear. The Astartes do not. They can flip the switch between mindless killing and peace.

But when an Imperial Guardsmen knows fear, stares it in the face, and manages to overcome it with the Lasgun in his hands and a prayer to the Emperor on his lips takes more tenacity, character, and will than having it surgically removed from your brain like the Space Marines do.

What do you know about tactics?

Based on the rant following that statement? About as much as you.

Interesting, You cannot even win a verbal debate and you expect your weak IG to win. Mind you they are noble in nature, just no match to the Astartes

Amazing. You were the one who declared

not worth my time

and somehow I can't win? This is like debating with a three year old.

aka_mythos wrote:

Ignatius wrote:@aka_mythos

You were speaking about the maneuverability of the Space Marines. He wasn't talking about the reinforcement options so much as the ability to redeploy to other areas, which, the Drop Pod clearly is incapable of doing. Where as the Valkyrie can simply come down and pick up a squad to move them to a new location. Which is a huge part of "maneuverability".

No he wasn't... if you go back through all the quotes he began by asserting that IG don't need drop pods because Valkyries do the same thing. I then posed that they do not, since Valkries still rely on aerodynamic re-entry and drop pods are direct ballistic. He accepted that as a superior attribute, but then posed the re-deployability as an advantage over the drop pod. I then posted this:

ME wrote:7) Drop pods are a "here and now" asset. While a thunderhawk may need to extract a drop pod, its more a case of weighing the risk of losing a drop pod vs loosing many more units. In real life what does the soldier on the ground need reinforcements now or reinforcements 10-15 minutes from now? Win the battle and it doesn't matter you need to land a thunderhawk.

Reasserting the separate and distinct design intent of drop pods over valkyries and emphasizing the point that Marines have versatility because they can also send Thunderhawks, at the same time even.

Ignatius wrote:
Also, you said, "Second the number of Valkyries in a given task force are generally insufficient to land all Imperial Guard, they simply rely on much larger landers to bring planet-side the majority of forces. This general scarcity is why they're largely reserved for Storm Troopers."

There are not supposed to be enough Valkyries to land the entire guard regiment, that would be a huge waste of resources. Again, we aren't speaking of bringing troops planet side. We are speaking of getting troops where they need to be as fast and as reliably as possible.

Except that's where you're wrong my line of conversation started because he posted this:

Unit1126PLL wrote:
...
3) The IG can drop from orbit too, in Valkyries.
4) The Guard can fly in on Valkyries.
..
7) The IG don't need drop-pods, they use Valkyries.

Ignatius wrote:
Where the Imperial Guard's method of reinforcing and redeploying allows them to be both dropped off and picked up, the Astartes only allows them to be dropped off. Which means that if they are needed a couple minutes later in a new place, they are going to have to literally run there.

I'm insisting that when redeployability is important SM have the resources to send Thunderhawks, but also the advantage of getting reinforcements more quickly if its time sensitive by drop pod. They have a choice, while IG do not. That is versatility and flexibility the IG can't buy. What good is the Valkyrie that arrives 10 minutes late?

Ignatius wrote:
Your last sentence confuses me. I'm curious as to why you said that Valkyries are usually reserved for storm troopers. Because this is something that is made up. Partly because storm trooper squads, companies, and regiments aren't a part of a regiment other than their own. They are lent to regiments that are in need much like Valkyries are. Seeing as how Valkyries are MUCH more commonplace in the Guard as there are storm troopers, then this would be statistically impossible.

Stormtroopers don't just fall out of the air... they're jumping from something. That was just to say that. They are a higher value asset than a platoon and would generally get the higher priority.

Part of the confusion is the context in which I'm discussing Valkyries and how plentiful Valkyries are actually supposed to be. In planetfall valkyries would generally be reserved for airborne regiments such as Stormtroopers or Elysians, but the vast majority of IG land in the big fortress class landers. I keep saying "general scarcity" because even though there are alot of them, in proportion to non-airborne regiments (ie a regiment that doesn't have 1:1 valkyries to infantry) the distribution is going to be significantly slim, such that the Navy averages 1 Valkyrie per company or fewer. While IG can hold back the Valkyries as a reserve, they just generally wouldn't arrive as quickly as SM could choose to deploy assets.

Ignatius wrote:
It is implied that "Imperial Guard vs Space Marines" means all the Imperial Guard vs all the Space Marines as had been talked about in the first few pages of the thread.

First I'm not buying the whole every last IG vs every last SM line of thought... the IG would gridlock a planets airspace and overwhelm radio bandwith. Any planet sufficiently large enough for all the IG to be present and allow for an actual battlefield would likely be so massive as to have a gravity well too extreme for the average human... let alone the disruption to the planets orbit caused by the added mass. I've made clear I don't believe the SM as presented would be able to stand up to the IG, but I'm insisting its because if they were represented with any degree of realism they would never fight those types of battles.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
1-4, 7, 9) I assumed it was all the guard in one place based on the title IG vs. SM. I suppose it should be clarified or we cannot proceed. And yes, once the landing is secured with Valkyries, they bring in larger landers. This isn't a flaw, it's force concentration at its finest.

The OP is asking about "respect" and if he poses anything, its the notion of the SM chapters attacking all the IG. So if we're going to make this about trying to re-frame the discussion, any conversation about IG shouldn't include Naval assets since they're the defenders and if the Navy were still present the SM attacking wouldn't even be able to occur. This is me writing in an intentionally dickish way... I wasn't writing in terms of any sort of hypothetical engagement as you've posed... and the OP only remotely... I acknowledged the weaknesses of the Astartes and was simply trying to point out they have advantages too. You and Ignatius are treating this as a philosophical attack on the IG, I don't see it that way, because I see an Imperium where the IG and SM compliment each other very well.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
5,10) There isn't a place where those scout units *aren't* because of how the Imperial Guard operates. Scout regiments are rarely fielded as one formation, but split into companies and even sections, each element being attached to a regiment that has no integral scouts. Therefore, where there is a Guard regiment, there are some Guard scouts from a different, more specialized regiment.

I was trying to point out the logistical concerns... that SM's advantage is that they can do more with whats a organizationally smaller entity; that if the IG were to bring forces to bear against the SM, they don't just have to bring more troops because of attrition, but that they have to bring more troops because of the size of their smallest dividable formation. The IG due to the logistics of space travel would have to commit and land a Regiment of scouts, even if they only needed 10 scouts. Meanwhile if SM need 10 scouts, that's all they have to worry about supporting. SM fighting IG would likely attack food transports and let them starve.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
1) Unlike Valkyries, they require orbital support. Why don't the Guard receive their orbital support?

Because as posed, the SM are attacking the IG not the IG and Navy.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
2) Although instantaneously arriving, again their extraction is not. They will be useful for reinforcement of beleaguered Marines, but they will not be able to move from that position once deployed without the application of additional assets. Throwing such assets into the fray puts them at the mercy of those oh-so-effective Air Defense Regiments, which are murder (as you can see from my point above).

Unlike the IG, the SM have the resources to deploy both; drop a drop pod and fly in a Thunderhawk at the same time but only arriving in time for extraction. My point is with that with SM it doesn't need to be an either or choice, they can always do both. Also remember space marine ships unlike the IG transport ships, have bombardment cannons allowing them to bombard planets before an attack. Remember this is IG vs SM not IG and IN vs SM.

Still I disagree. You seem to think the Astartes need to come up close and savagely kill there opponent. That is not the case. The Space Marines have the same advanced weapons and are MUCH more capable of using them. You have to think its not going to be an all out war. No that is not the case. Its a war of attrition, of maneuvering and strategy. In the end the Space Marines can go longer without food, water, sleep and many other things. Eventually the IG's are going to get fatigued beyond reckoning. There are so many factors that go into the Astartes winning it is incredible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KplKeegan wrote:

Brother Thomas wrote:Not to mention IG's have emotions, they can be routed, they have fear. The Astartes do not. They can flip the switch between mindless killing and peace.

But when an Imperial Guardsmen knows fear, stares it in the face, and manages to overcome it with the Lasgun in his hands and a prayer to the Emperor on his lips takes more tenacity, character, and will than having it surgically removed from your brain like the Space Marines do.

Hah Funny, They would both be praying to the emperor, but however when death is inches away, i guarantee the last thing on the mind of the guardsmen is the emperor. Its of him defecating his pants and being slain by a savage trained cannibalistic warrior, either from afar with there enhanced vision and a bolter, or up close with a combat blade to there chest


Automatically Appended Next Post:
AH yes, As my fellow Astartes supporter said this is IG Vs Adeptus Astartes. I believe the Space Marines are self relying, and the Guardsmen rely on the navy for logistical support. Hm Interesting, What are those billions of guardsmen going to do with no food or water or even ammunition?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KplKeegan wrote:

Brother Thomas wrote:Not to mention IG's have emotions, they can be routed, they have fear. The Astartes do not. They can flip the switch between mindless killing and peace.

But when an Imperial Guardsmen knows fear, stares it in the face, and manages to overcome it with the Lasgun in his hands and a prayer to the Emperor on his lips takes more tenacity, character, and will than having it surgically removed from your brain like the Space Marines do.

What do you know about tactics?

Based on the rant following that statement? About as much as you.

Interesting, You cannot even win a verbal debate and you expect your weak IG to win. Mind you they are noble in nature, just no match to the Astartes

Amazing. You were the one who declared

not worth my time

and somehow I can't win? This is like debating with a three year old.

Haha too funny, it is all too clear you are defeated and don't know what to say, because of the fact that you have come to personal blows as your only line of defense

Brother Thomas wrote:Still I disagree. You seem to think the Astartes need to come up close and savagely kill there opponent. That is not the case. The Space Marines have the same advanced weapons and are MUCH more capable of using them. You have to think its not going to be an all out war. No that is not the case. Its a war of attrition, of maneuvering and strategy. In the end the Space Marines can go longer without food, water, sleep and many other things. Eventually the IG's are going to get fatigued beyond reckoning. There are so many factors that go into the Astartes winning it is incredible.

What are you talking about?... you even quoted me saying:

me wrote:First I'm not buying the whole every last IG vs every last SM line of thought... I've made clear I don't believe the SM as presented would be able to stand up to the IG, but I'm insisting its because if they were represented with any degree of realism they would never fight those types of battles.

Or how about when I said:

me wrote:I was trying to point out the logistical concerns... that SM's advantage is that they can do more with whats a organizationally smaller entity; that if the IG were to bring forces to bear against the SM, they don't just have to bring more troops because of attrition, but that they have to bring more troops because of the size of their smallest dividable formation. The IG due to the logistics of space travel would have to commit and land a Regiment of scouts, even if they only needed 10 scouts. Meanwhile if SM need 10 scouts, that's all they have to worry about supporting. SM fighting IG would likely attack food transports and let them starve.

Sounds like we're saying a lot of the same things.

Great minds think alike?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
k i'm out. I have work balls early. I'll be back tomorrow to argue till the end!!

Eat the marines?

Frazzled wrote:Eat the marines?

There are enough guardsmen to do that...
Like i have said numerous times...
There are enough Guardsmen to literally crush (As in through weight, like a big flak armoured squishy human boulder) every single Space Marine...
That's without firing a shot and simply throwing the bodies on them...
Make them fight the marines and the marines are even more screwed.
Give them guns, tanks, artillery, leaders, and air support.
The marines don't stand a chance.

Not to mention the fact that the marines would need to re-supply (No one can carry that much ammo) which means all the Guards would realistically have to do is take and hold every single ammo dump on the battle-planet...
With every single Guardsman in the Imperiu at their disposal they have enough resources at their disposal to make Cadia look like a Nursery...

What always interested me, is that, in such a conflict, the marine argument is that they would go after the command and control systems via direct shock troop type attacks. I always imagined the Guard could set up some excellent ambushes with false HQs using false signals centers to lure them in. There they could shoot them up or, in more proper guard fashion, set off a nice deathstrike warhead or good old fashioned boobytrapped mines on a 10 ton scale or such.

Bloody their noses a few times and the marines are in a real quandary.

aka_mythos wrote:

Ignatius wrote:@aka_mythos

You were speaking about the maneuverability of the Space Marines. He wasn't talking about the reinforcement options so much as the ability to redeploy to other areas, which, the Drop Pod clearly is incapable of doing. Where as the Valkyrie can simply come down and pick up a squad to move them to a new location. Which is a huge part of "maneuverability".

No he wasn't... if you go back through all the quotes he began by asserting that IG don't need drop pods because Valkyries do the same thing. I then posed that they do not, since Valkries still rely on aerodynamic re-entry and drop pods are direct ballistic. He accepted that as a superior attribute, but then posed the re-deployability as an advantage over the drop pod. I then posted this:

ME wrote:7) Drop pods are a "here and now" asset. While a thunderhawk may need to extract a drop pod, its more a case of weighing the risk of losing a drop pod vs loosing many more units. In real life what does the soldier on the ground need reinforcements now or reinforcements 10-15 minutes from now? Win the battle and it doesn't matter you need to land a thunderhawk.

Reasserting the separate and distinct design intent of drop pods over valkyries and emphasizing the point that Marines have versatility because they can also send Thunderhawks, at the same time even.

Ignatius wrote:
Also, you said, "Second the number of Valkyries in a given task force are generally insufficient to land all Imperial Guard, they simply rely on much larger landers to bring planet-side the majority of forces. This general scarcity is why they're largely reserved for Storm Troopers."

There are not supposed to be enough Valkyries to land the entire guard regiment, that would be a huge waste of resources. Again, we aren't speaking of bringing troops planet side. We are speaking of getting troops where they need to be as fast and as reliably as possible.

Except that's where you're wrong my line of conversation started because he posted this:

Unit1126PLL wrote:
...
3) The IG can drop from orbit too, in Valkyries.
4) The Guard can fly in on Valkyries.
..
7) The IG don't need drop-pods, they use Valkyries.

Ignatius wrote:
Where the Imperial Guard's method of reinforcing and redeploying allows them to be both dropped off and picked up, the Astartes only allows them to be dropped off. Which means that if they are needed a couple minutes later in a new place, they are going to have to literally run there.

I'm insisting that when redeployability is important SM have the resources to send Thunderhawks, but also the advantage of getting reinforcements more quickly if its time sensitive by drop pod. They have a choice, while IG do not. That is versatility and flexibility the IG can't buy. What good is the Valkyrie that arrives 10 minutes late?

Ignatius wrote:
Your last sentence confuses me. I'm curious as to why you said that Valkyries are usually reserved for storm troopers. Because this is something that is made up. Partly because storm trooper squads, companies, and regiments aren't a part of a regiment other than their own. They are lent to regiments that are in need much like Valkyries are. Seeing as how Valkyries are MUCH more commonplace in the Guard as there are storm troopers, then this would be statistically impossible.

Stormtroopers don't just fall out of the air... they're jumping from something. That was just to say that. They are a higher value asset than a platoon and would generally get the higher priority.

Part of the confusion is the context in which I'm discussing Valkyries and how plentiful Valkyries are actually supposed to be. In planetfall valkyries would generally be reserved for airborne regiments such as Stormtroopers or Elysians, but the vast majority of IG land in the big fortress class landers. I keep saying "general scarcity" because even though there are alot of them, in proportion to non-airborne regiments (ie a regiment that doesn't have 1:1 valkyries to infantry) the distribution is going to be significantly slim, such that the Navy averages 1 Valkyrie per company or fewer. While IG can hold back the Valkyries as a reserve, they just generally wouldn't arrive as quickly as SM could choose to deploy assets.

Ignatius wrote:
It is implied that "Imperial Guard vs Space Marines" means all the Imperial Guard vs all the Space Marines as had been talked about in the first few pages of the thread.

First I'm not buying the whole every last IG vs every last SM line of thought... the IG would gridlock a planets airspace and overwhelm radio bandwith. Any planet sufficiently large enough for all the IG to be present and allow for an actual battlefield would likely be so massive as to have a gravity well too extreme for the average human... let alone the disruption to the planets orbit caused by the added mass. I've made clear I don't believe the SM as presented would be able to stand up to the IG, but I'm insisting its because if they were represented with any degree of realism they would never fight those types of battles.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
1-4, 7, 9) I assumed it was all the guard in one place based on the title IG vs. SM. I suppose it should be clarified or we cannot proceed. And yes, once the landing is secured with Valkyries, they bring in larger landers. This isn't a flaw, it's force concentration at its finest.

The OP is asking about "respect" and if he poses anything, its the notion of the SM chapters attacking all the IG. So if we're going to make this about trying to re-frame the discussion, any conversation about IG shouldn't include Naval assets since they're the defenders and if the Navy were still present the SM attacking wouldn't even be able to occur. This is me writing in an intentionally dickish way... I wasn't writing in terms of any sort of hypothetical engagement as you've posed... and the OP only remotely... I acknowledged the weaknesses of the Astartes and was simply trying to point out they have advantages too. You and Ignatius are treating this as a philosophical attack on the IG, I don't see it that way, because I see an Imperium where the IG and SM compliment each other very well.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
5,10) There isn't a place where those scout units *aren't* because of how the Imperial Guard operates. Scout regiments are rarely fielded as one formation, but split into companies and even sections, each element being attached to a regiment that has no integral scouts. Therefore, where there is a Guard regiment, there are some Guard scouts from a different, more specialized regiment.

I was trying to point out the logistical concerns... that SM's advantage is that they can do more with whats a organizationally smaller entity; that if the IG were to bring forces to bear against the SM, they don't just have to bring more troops because of attrition, but that they have to bring more troops because of the size of their smallest dividable formation. The IG due to the logistics of space travel would have to commit and land a Regiment of scouts, even if they only needed 10 scouts. Meanwhile if SM need 10 scouts, that's all they have to worry about supporting. SM fighting IG would likely attack food transports and let them starve.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
1) Unlike Valkyries, they require orbital support. Why don't the Guard receive their orbital support?

Because as posed, the SM are attacking the IG not the IG and Navy.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
2) Although instantaneously arriving, again their extraction is not. They will be useful for reinforcement of beleaguered Marines, but they will not be able to move from that position once deployed without the application of additional assets. Throwing such assets into the fray puts them at the mercy of those oh-so-effective Air Defense Regiments, which are murder (as you can see from my point above).

Unlike the IG, the SM have the resources to deploy both; drop a drop pod and fly in a Thunderhawk at the same time but only arriving in time for extraction. My point is with that with SM it doesn't need to be an either or choice, they can always do both. Also remember space marine ships unlike the IG transport ships, have bombardment cannons allowing them to bombard planets before an attack. Remember this is IG vs SM not IG and IN vs SM.

Even if I was defending something that he didn't mean, it doesn't invalidate my arguement about Valkyrie vs Drop Pod and maneuverability.

Yes Valkyries can be described as "generally scarce". But don't forget that there are more Valkyries than space marines.

In all reality, the differences in numbers and firepower here makes this entire arguement completely unnecessary and one sided.

Trillions. Hundreds of Trillions of guardsmen. Against a Million Space Marines. The numbers make it impossible for the Marines to win.

Okay, just looking at numbers doesn't really help at all. Look at weapons. Contrary to what you have been "taught" in BL novels, the humble lasgun can in fact do damage to a marine's ceremite- provided it hits something softer than the hard armor. Perhaps the joints or eye lenses. Well that can't be relied on! A guardsmen will have a hard time doing that! Maybe by himself. But not when his entire company is shooting too. And just think, there are more regiments than Space Marines. On the other hand, a marines bolter will outright kill a guardsmen out in the open with a single hit. So guardsmen vs marine, clearly it goes to the marine.

Now what about squad special weapons? This is where the tide turns (more than enough in my opinion, but we will discuss how it changes even more in a little bit) in the Guard's favor if the 1,000,000+ to 1 ratio doesn't convince you. A plasma gun will kill a space marine as easily as a boltgun will kill a guardsmen. Now think about the fact that there are more plasma guns as there are space marines. Same exact thing with melta guns. A marine won't be able to sustain direct hits from multiple grenade launchers, a sniper rifle will have enough punch to blow through a marines helmat, and a flamer will eventually do enough harm to a marine. Now how practical is it to say that they will be in range, line of sight, ect, ect.? Enough that statistically, I would imagine that the entire marine force can be killed just with lasguns and the squad based special weapons.

But let's not even consider them in our equation. And now we find ourselves at the doorstep of heavy weapons. Besides special weapons, this is where the average human makes up for what he lacks in strength and endurace. Every single heavy weapon offered in the guard codex will be able to kill a space marine. It's been done in novels. How many heavy weapons does the guard have you ask? More than there are marines. For each weapon. And then a lot more.

How about tanks? (which we will group together for the sake of avoiding redundancy)
Well there are more Leman Russ' than there are space marines. And each is fully capable of obliterating multiple marines with every battle cannon shot. The Leman Russ is stronger, tougher, and arguably more reliable than the Astartes Predator. Even the Land Raider (which is a relic in itself) wouldn't be able to stand up to many Russ'. Even if you want to argue that the regular Leman Russ isn't strong enough to take out a Land Raider, then the Leman Russ Vanquisher and the Laser Destroyer will show up and take care of them real quick like.
There are more Hydra anti aircraft than marines.
More Basilisks and all forms of artillary than marines.
More Valkyries than marines.
More Vendettas than marines.
More sentinels, storm troopers (which are basically marines without the augments and as strong of armor), chimeras, hellhounds, and anything else in the entire codex than there are marines.

You can't- no matter how you argue it- stand up to the firepower and numbers to even claim that the marines have even a sliver of a percent of a chance of winning.

ill sum this up to this.




Quantity has a Quality all it's own.




now increase that picture by hundreds of trillions.

There are more superheavy tanks in the entire Imperial Guard than there are Space Marines.

Really this is just silly.

Unit1126PLL wrote:There are more superheavy tanks in the entire Imperial Guard than there are Space Marines.

Really this is just silly.

hold that thought..... i have a space marine and 7 Super heavys in mah army. i now want to have a picture of 4 Baneblades (3 battle tanks and a Shadowsword), a Malcador Annialator, Macharius Vanquisher and a Minotaur Artillary Pience surrounding a single Space Marine with a funny voice bubble form him

probly "Oh S*bleep*......"

Brother Thomas wrote:. Not to mention IG's have emotions, they can be routed, they have fear.

That depends on many factors as for the rest of your post:

SM would win, and I mean it. Aside from all the other obvious advantages, the SM have the following advantage:
They are comprimated. In strentgh, they can deploy overwhelming force in a small area. The IG, on the other hand, are stranded on a planet, with either

1. A small planet. Here the guardsmen layers would be so thick (Yes, they would cover all ground several times over) they'd rapidly die to pressure, heat, hunger......

2. A large planet. A planet large enough for all IG to actually fight on would be so large that even SM have a tough time standing up. IG would be crushed to paste.

With all earlier arguments taken into account, SM would win.

Discussion over.

Mmm

There are planets with 130 billions humans (hive worlds) take off the buildings, replace them with 120 billions guardsmen and co add a million SM with all their gear, the outcome is the same, they don't need the trillions of men and billions of equipement pieces.

I think that a lot of the argument that is circular here is that whatever the Space Marines use, the Guard will simply reply with their slightly less effective, but much more numerically superior weapons. This is only true to a certain extent. Yes the Guard have overall superiority, but I doubt that they could achieve local superiority over the Space Marines. I say this because every chapter of Marines should be able to fight on say, 10 battlefields at once. That's one per company, each of those companies are capable of beating, quite handily I might add, several regiments of Imperial Guard at any given time.

Now obviously there are rock paper scissors issues with this premise. A Battle company would likely die to a tank regiment, an Assault Company would likely die to an anti-air regiment, On the other hand, and Assault company would likely murder the crap out of an Artillery regiment, or a light infantry regiment, and do well against any unarmoured infantry regiments. A Devastator company would likely excel against a Superheavy regiment, and would almost definately wipe a tank regiment, or Armoured regiment. A bike assault company would wipe a roughrider regiment, and likely artillery and armoured regiments as well. What I'm getting at essentially is that Space Marines have a hard counter for everything the Imperial Guard can throw at them, and the Imperial Guard have a counter to pretty much everything the space marines can throw at them, aside from possibly teleporters and terminators. So the force that would defeat the other would be the one that is able to always deploy their rock where the enemy deploys a scissors, and keep their rocks away from the enemy's paper. I feel the Space Marines can do this to such a greater degree than the Guard, that the Space Marines would win.

The reason for that being that every single Space Marine has multiple ways of getting to where they're needed as fast as possible. A chapter has enough rhinos for them all to ride them, enough bikes and landspeeders and jump packs for large numbers of the marines, and thunder and chibi hawks for both the marines and their AFV's. The Guard simply cannot match this. They exchange speed for size, the Space Marines are all about speed.

As for Space Marine supply issues, they would have a much easier time of it than the Guard, because they can simply steal stuff from the Guard.

And a final note on the outnumbering, the Guard would never be able to bring their entire numbers down upon the Space Marines at once, an appropriate analogy I feel is that of the ocean breaking upon a rock, yes, if the ocean took all of its mass and stuck on that rock, that rocks obliterated, but it can't so it just smashes against it until the rock is worn down.

However, Space Marines aren't rocks.

Ratbarf wrote:That's one per company, each of those companies are capable of beating, quite handily I might add, several regiments of Imperial Guard at any given time.

Sure, maybe, but a single company couldn't beat 50 regiments at once, with three of them being artillery regiments and five of them being tank regiments. That's why the IG would win in an all out war against the Astartes.

I don't think people appreciate that in order for the Asartes to win, every single space marine would need to kill several thousand Guardsmen before being killed themselves. That's the level of disparity between Astartes numbers and Guardsmen numbers.

Ratbarf wrote:I think that a lot of the argument that is circular here is that whatever the Space Marines use, the Guard will simply reply with their slightly less effective, but much more numerically superior weapons. This is only true to a certain extent. Yes the Guard have overall superiority, but I doubt that they could achieve local superiority over the Space Marines. I say this because every chapter of Marines should be able to fight on say, 10 battlefields at once. That's one per company, each of those companies are capable of beating, quite handily I might add, several regiments of Imperial Guard at any given time.

Now obviously there are rock paper scissors issues with this premise. A Battle company would likely die to a tank regiment, an Assault Company would likely die to an anti-air regiment, On the other hand, and Assault company would likely murder the crap out of an Artillery regiment, or a light infantry regiment, and do well against any unarmoured infantry regiments. A Devastator company would likely excel against a Superheavy regiment, and would almost definately wipe a tank regiment, or Armoured regiment. A bike assault company would wipe a roughrider regiment, and likely artillery and armoured regiments as well. What I'm getting at essentially is that Space Marines have a hard counter for everything the Imperial Guard can throw at them, and the Imperial Guard have a counter to pretty much everything the space marines can throw at them, aside from possibly teleporters and terminators. So the force that would defeat the other would be the one that is able to always deploy their rock where the enemy deploys a scissors, and keep their rocks away from the enemy's paper. I feel the Space Marines can do this to such a greater degree than the Guard, that the Space Marines would win.

The reason for that being that every single Space Marine has multiple ways of getting to where they're needed as fast as possible. A chapter has enough rhinos for them all to ride them, enough bikes and landspeeders and jump packs for large numbers of the marines, and thunder and chibi hawks for both the marines and their AFV's. The Guard simply cannot match this. They exchange speed for size, the Space Marines are all about speed.

As for Space Marine supply issues, they would have a much easier time of it than the Guard, because they can simply steal stuff from the Guard.

And a final note on the outnumbering, the Guard would never be able to bring their entire numbers down upon the Space Marines at once, an appropriate analogy I feel is that of the ocean breaking upon a rock, yes, if the ocean took all of its mass and stuck on that rock, that rocks obliterated, but it can't so it just smashes against it until the rock is worn down.

However, Space Marines aren't rocks.

Unfortunately this same principle was tried by the Germans against the Soviets in WWII. It turns out that slightly less powerful but much much more numerous foes can indeed overwhelm a position if the correct tactics are used.

The German divisions were rocks in a sea, to use the same analogy. But the USSR won the war.

And, just like the USSR, the Imperial Guard actually have better equipment for that purpose than their counterparts, as well as a doctrine perfected to utilize such a mass of men and material over thousands of years.

Think of it this way:
The Marines fight:
1) Other Marines
2) Heretics (sometimes including PDF)
3) Xenos
Note that none of these operates on the same scale or with the same power as the Imperial Guard.

The Imperial Guard fight:
1) Other Marines
2) Heretics
3) Xenos
Note the first thing on the list. The Imperial Guard, especially the Cadians, Mordians, and Armageddon Steel Legion are experienced in fighting Chaos Space Marines. This means that they know the underhanded Marine tactics, they know the rough capabilities of their equipment. They know that Imperial armor is superior to Marine armor, they know that Imperial heavy weapons are much more numerous than Marine heavy weapons. They know how to apply these strengths.
This makes them dangerous opponents for any force of Marines.

Dark wrote:If they dont win, Marines would take a great deal of the IG with 'em.

Mostly due psychological and morale factors, as Iracundus said, mortal men will fight them with fear at first... eventually they'll either crumble or will be exalted when they realize that even gods can die, but when that happens might be too late.

Sorry but this is an uneducated assumption. Obviously the whole world could easily defeat the royal marines, however that is not the case here. This is Adeptus Astartes, the most elite, genetically engineered POWER ARMOR wearing hardasses in the galaxy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BlaxicanX wrote:

Ratbarf wrote:That's one per company, each of those companies are capable of beating, quite handily I might add, several regiments of Imperial Guard at any given time.

Sure, maybe, but a single company couldn't beat 50 regiments at once, with three of them being artillery regiments and five of them being tank regiments. That's why the IG would win in an all out war against the Astartes.

I don't think people appreciate that in order for the Asartes to win, every single space marine would need to kill several thousand Guardsmen before being killed themselves. That's the level of disparity between Astartes numbers and Guardsmen numbers.

In vietnam the average grunt fired something like 5000 rounds per kill. Okay the ig are average grunts. Now the space marines are super elite men engineered for war. Calm, collective and utterly savage and merciless. The ig look up to the astartes and cower in their presence. Now all this being said imagine an astartes advancing on the enemy, one shot one kill. The ig spraying and praying, just hoping somehow he can kill a fully armored mutant, who is higly resistant to his rounds. Imagine the person you look up to most, ok good now imagine him savagely tearing your friend apart and then charging you next

Engine of War wrote:Recap main scenario (as some have lost sight of what it is)

Every single Imperial Guardsmen in the Imperium (and all their equipment, vehicales, you name it)
VS>
Every Single Spehess Meherine in the Imperium (along side all their equipment, vehicales etc)

This is a PLANETARY WAR. If you want Space combat go take that up with the boys who fly the space ships. (which is another topic all together, but my 2 cents say the Entire IMperial Navy can wipe away the Space Marines navy, but thats another discussion all together! so stay on topic!)

You can leave the Battle boats at home. you can have your drop pods and all that alongside thunderhawks and such.
...

This notion of the battle is the flaw of the arguement, becasue it purposefully excludes the biggest advantage of one of the two sides; you might as well be telling Space Marines to fight a war with a hands tied behind their back. Space Marines are a fully integrated land-and-space force; there single greatest advantage is that they have everything they might need is under a single command hierarchy. IG might be forced to fight a war without the aid of the Imperial Navy any time they get attacked by an invasion force, but Marines are relatively inseparable from their space elements.

Simply it is to say, without their full force, the Space Marines would lose to the IG; its very clear cut and hinges on their integrated capabiliity.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Ratbarf wrote:I think that a lot of the argument that is circular here is that whatever the Space Marines use, the Guard will simply reply with their slightly less effective, but much more numerically superior weapons. This is only true to a certain extent. Yes the Guard have overall superiority, but I doubt that they could achieve local superiority over the Space Marines. I say this because every chapter of Marines should be able to fight on say, 10 battlefields at once. That's one per company, each of those companies are capable of beating, quite handily I might add, several regiments of Imperial Guard at any given time.

Now obviously there are rock paper scissors issues with this premise. A Battle company would likely die to a tank regiment, an Assault Company would likely die to an anti-air regiment, On the other hand, and Assault company would likely murder the crap out of an Artillery regiment, or a light infantry regiment, and do well against any unarmoured infantry regiments. A Devastator company would likely excel against a Superheavy regiment, and would almost definately wipe a tank regiment, or Armoured regiment. A bike assault company would wipe a roughrider regiment, and likely artillery and armoured regiments as well. What I'm getting at essentially is that Space Marines have a hard counter for everything the Imperial Guard can throw at them, and the Imperial Guard have a counter to pretty much everything the space marines can throw at them, aside from possibly teleporters and terminators. So the force that would defeat the other would be the one that is able to always deploy their rock where the enemy deploys a scissors, and keep their rocks away from the enemy's paper. I feel the Space Marines can do this to such a greater degree than the Guard, that the Space Marines would win.

The reason for that being that every single Space Marine has multiple ways of getting to where they're needed as fast as possible. A chapter has enough rhinos for them all to ride them, enough bikes and landspeeders and jump packs for large numbers of the marines, and thunder and chibi hawks for both the marines and their AFV's. The Guard simply cannot match this. They exchange speed for size, the Space Marines are all about speed.

As for Space Marine supply issues, they would have a much easier time of it than the Guard, because they can simply steal stuff from the Guard.

And a final note on the outnumbering, the Guard would never be able to bring their entire numbers down upon the Space Marines at once, an appropriate analogy I feel is that of the ocean breaking upon a rock, yes, if the ocean took all of its mass and stuck on that rock, that rocks obliterated, but it can't so it just smashes against it until the rock is worn down.

However, Space Marines aren't rocks.

Unfortunately this same principle was tried by the Germans against the Soviets in WWII. It turns out that slightly less powerful but much much more numerous foes can indeed overwhelm a position if the correct tactics are used.

The German divisions were rocks in a sea, to use the same analogy. But the USSR won the war.

And, just like the USSR, the Imperial Guard actually have better equipment for that purpose than their counterparts, as well as a doctrine perfected to utilize such a mass of men and material over thousands of years.

Think of it this way:
The Marines fight:
1) Other Marines
2) Heretics (sometimes including PDF)
3) Xenos
Note that none of these operates on the same scale or with the same power as the Imperial Guard.

The Imperial Guard fight:
1) Other Marines
2) Heretics
3) Xenos
Note the first thing on the list. The Imperial Guard, especially the Cadians, Mordians, and Armageddon Steel Legion are experienced in fighting Chaos Space Marines. This means that they know the underhanded Marine tactics, they know the rough capabilities of their equipment. They know that Imperial armor is superior to Marine armor, they know that Imperial heavy weapons are much more numerous than Marine heavy weapons. They know how to apply these strengths.
This makes them dangerous opponents for any force of Marines.

The main difference between the Germans in WW2 and the Space Marines is the comparative level of technology and inherent superiority of the Space Marines. The Space Marines should be able to pick and choose their fights every time. The Guard simply do not have the level of mobility of the Space Marines. Much of their force is only as fast as their feet, with some as fast as their tanks, and very very very few regiments as fast as their Valkyries. All Space Marines are as fast if not faster than the Imperial Guard Valkyries, so they simply cannot be caught and brought to the fight if they don't want too.

Their Space Component also works in a way that no one has mentioned yet, even if you take away all of their orbit to surface weapons the Space Marine space arm acts as a safe haven from which they can strike quickly, and after retreival rest with impunity to Guard weapons and technology. That means that they will almost always be able to strike where they wish, and where they can do the most damage while taking the least amount of casualties.

In addition to all this, the Guard are susceptible to morale, whereas the Space Marines are not. Essentially, whenever the Space Marines fight the Guard they will aim to break all of the units within their operational area, once that's done they either mop up or smash and grab.

Sure, maybe, but a single company couldn't beat 50 regiments at once, with three of them being artillery regiments and five of them being tank regiments. That's why the IG would win in an all out war against the Astartes.

The thing is though is that they would never have to. The Guard could only bring a regiment or two against the company at a time. It's a matter of space, there simply isn't enough frontage in a Space Marine company to cram 50 regiments against it. Even if you just put all of the men shoulder to shoulder, and all the Space Marines shoulder to shoulder, you would still only have a frontage of maybe a thousand men if the Guard completely surrounded them. I think the Space Marines could kill the Guard a thousand men at a time.

In anycase the above scenario is still unlikely to happen, because the Space Marines have an untouchable refuge in the form of their space fleet and the strike capability to be in and out before the Guard can bring the appropriate counter to bear.

All in all I think the Space Marines would win.

Why does everyone assume thunderhawks won't be shot down? Frankly it's just rather weird.

aka_mythos wrote:This notion of the battle is the flaw of the arguement, becasue it purposefully excludes the biggest advantage of one of the two sides

An advantage which wouldn't even help them anyway, but if you want to include naval battles, then the Imperial Navy gets included because that's how the Guard gets around and frankly? The Imperial Navy woudl crush the Space Marine navy under sheer numbers and firepower as well.

Space Marines are too tiny of a force to do anything but bruise the Imperial Guard war machine. The numbers difference is literally that great. There's not really anything they can do about it.

I appreciate it's a terribly important, nay vital topic, but it'll be much more fun for everyone concerned if users are polite to each other when debating the issue.

Thanks everyone !

The space contingent is probably their biggest strength personally. Once a power controls the gravity well of a planet it's pretty much over for the inhabitants from a combat point of view. How would the planetary forces be resupplied? The Guard aren't exactly farmers.

Actually come to think of it, its a Space Marine auto win to fight the Guard and just the guard on a single planet. That's trillions and trillions of mouths to feed, if Jupiter was an Earthlike planet and 100% arable even it wouldn't have enough surface area to feed that many people, let alone provide water for them.

Oh man, I just realised that the Guard would likely lose within say a year, and I think that's highballing it, of the engagement. Screw going after the officers, hit their water supplies.