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Wheeeewwwwwps.

I'll edit that away.

Chaps & Chapettes if you're going to quote, please make sure you are quoting the correct person. aka_mytho's comment has been quoted with my handle. It only takes two moments to check who you are quoting & the content.

I pointed out the same thing.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:
Well I think you're confusing things... my point was that any Space Marine chapter can do all of those things, and that the flexibility of being a swiss army knife is their advantage.

Addressing 1-4, 7, 9) As I stated SM would be more mobile than "MOST" Imperial Guard, since very few Imperial Guard have permenant access to Valkyries and by extension Sky Talons, this is what make the Elysian Guard next to unique. The Imperial Navy is a different issue since Valkyries are piloted and operated by the Imperial Navy on assignment to an Imperial Guard unit. If we want to bring the Imperial Navy into the mix most SM are blasted before they even get near enough to a planet to make planet fall; so that bits moot.

Addressing 5, 10)... Any space marine chapter can choose to sneak in scouts, but not all Imperial Guard regiments can. Imperial Guard regiments are a jigsaw puzzle of specialized formation that an Imperial General can slap together to get a diverse force capable of doing a variaty of things, but not all elements are capable of every task. Any space marine given their training could theoretically don scout armor and act as a scout. That can't be said of every guardsmen.

Addressing 7)... Ignoring the previously stated issues with reliance on Valkyries... the advantage of a drop pod over a Valkyrie is that a Valkyrie though VTOL requires an aerdynamically constrained atmospheric entry while a drop pod is a guided balistic drop. Valkyries even with their guidance would be limited much more drastically by the location of their launching ship in entering the atmosphere and the course they take would be limited by atmospheric entry. If space marines want that type of entry they have the additional option of Thunderhawks and in some case craft similar to the Stormraven.

Addressing 6,8) I think teleporting, the ability to completely ignores lines of defense is by far their greatest advantage. It means, if I have good enough coordinates, it doesn't matter how many guns are between point "A" and point "B".

Flexibility isn't always good. The phrase "jack of all trades and master of none" comes to mind. For example, Marine tanks are more flexible as to what formation they take than the Leman Russ. Unfortunately, this means that they have to be constructed in a way so that a primarily infantry-led force can maintain them. This means they have a lighter chassis, which necessitates lighter armor and a lighter gun. The Leman Russ, while less flexible in its ginormous armored regiments, is on a heavy chassis with much more armor and firepower.

Just because someone is a master of none, doesn't mean they can't be above average in all. Flexibility means always having some degree of capacity where you need it when you need it. Using rock-paper-scissors as an analogy... If we look at the IG most companies are very specialized, in effect an IG formation is a rock, paper, or scissor formation... like an armored company, an airborne company, or a light infantry company. While being a jack of all trades means mastering none, it also means you are never outright defeated. Space Marines are always a rock, paper, and scissor... or they're like duct tape... meaning the battle they fight aren't going to be dictated by the enemies doctrine as much as it will be dictated only by the enemies ability to sufficiently and adequately counter all three facets at once. Imperial Guard size is as much a disadvantage as it is an an advantage. To counter a Space Marines force, and adequately bring to the fight elements to defeat all three facets requires a minimum of 3 distinct IG companies not just being on a planet but being in the vicinity of each other, which may or may not come from different planets with different levels of experience working together, all regardless of the size of the space marine formation. Proximity of those IG companies is a matter of luck because smaller size and complete mobility means SM would more often get to choose their battlefield. Space Marines will be overwhelmed, but they have the greater ability to avoid those situations.

People always talk about generalization as disadvantage, because most equate mastery to victory; what's often forgotten is that just like rock-paper-scissors mastery means inadequacy 2/3 of the time... since 1/3 of the time you completely lose, 1/3 of the time you stalemate. When one has scarce resources, generalization trumps specialization, and avoids turning your force into a Maginot line, frozen in place by its particular inadequacy.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
1-4,7,9) Provided that this is supposedly all the guard ever in one place, I think that any assigned-directly-to-regiment Naval assets will probably come along. This doesn't mean that the entire Imperial Navy comes along, though. The reason I say this is that many regiments would be crippled without the support of those aircraft, which is why the aircraft are put at the disposal of the ground forces.

5,10) You're right, but fortunately this is all the regiments in one place under a centralized command. No doubt the scout regiments will be doing their thing within the greater framework of the army. Which means that, while a Volpone Blueblood heavy-infantry regiment may not be able to scout, they will certainly be given attached resources who can.

7) In this case, you're right, the drop pod is marginally superior. I would contest, though, that the sheer number of available deployment aircraft available to the Guard would compensate. Additionally, the Valkyrie can take off and move troops to somewhere else - when Marines drop in with a pod, more marine forces would have to be committed to extract them. So drop-pod deployment isn't always good, either.

1-4, 7,9) Who said it was all guard in one place?-No ones has been that specific. In the least I haven't been. I've been speaking in general about the operations of space marines fighting on a given planet. Second the number of Valkyries in a given task force are generally insufficient to land all Imperial Guard, they simply rely on much larger landers to bring planet-side the majority of forces. This general scarcity is why they're largely reserved for Storm Troopers.

5,10) The Space Marine as an army could simply leave remove all their assets from a battlezone to evade those scout elements redeploying those forces where they aren't, effectually negating them.

7) Drop pods are a "here and now" asset. While a thunderhawk may need to extract a drop pod, its more a case of weighing the risk of losing a drop pod vs loosing many more units. In real life what does the soldier on the ground need reinforcements now or reinforcements 10-15 minutes from now? Win the battle and it doesn't matter you need to land a thunderhawk.

Well what do you like more IG or SM? They both compliment each other, alone they are strong, together they are invulnerable.

aka_mythos wrote:I pointed out the same thing.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:
Well I think you're confusing things... my point was that any Space Marine chapter can do all of those things, and that the flexibility of being a swiss army knife is their advantage.

Addressing 1-4, 7, 9) As I stated SM would be more mobile than "MOST" Imperial Guard, since very few Imperial Guard have permenant access to Valkyries and by extension Sky Talons, this is what make the Elysian Guard next to unique. The Imperial Navy is a different issue since Valkyries are piloted and operated by the Imperial Navy on assignment to an Imperial Guard unit. If we want to bring the Imperial Navy into the mix most SM are blasted before they even get near enough to a planet to make planet fall; so that bits moot.

Addressing 5, 10)... Any space marine chapter can choose to sneak in scouts, but not all Imperial Guard regiments can. Imperial Guard regiments are a jigsaw puzzle of specialized formation that an Imperial General can slap together to get a diverse force capable of doing a variaty of things, but not all elements are capable of every task. Any space marine given their training could theoretically don scout armor and act as a scout. That can't be said of every guardsmen.

Addressing 7)... Ignoring the previously stated issues with reliance on Valkyries... the advantage of a drop pod over a Valkyrie is that a Valkyrie though VTOL requires an aerdynamically constrained atmospheric entry while a drop pod is a guided balistic drop. Valkyries even with their guidance would be limited much more drastically by the location of their launching ship in entering the atmosphere and the course they take would be limited by atmospheric entry. If space marines want that type of entry they have the additional option of Thunderhawks and in some case craft similar to the Stormraven.

Addressing 6,8) I think teleporting, the ability to completely ignores lines of defense is by far their greatest advantage. It means, if I have good enough coordinates, it doesn't matter how many guns are between point "A" and point "B".

Flexibility isn't always good. The phrase "jack of all trades and master of none" comes to mind. For example, Marine tanks are more flexible as to what formation they take than the Leman Russ. Unfortunately, this means that they have to be constructed in a way so that a primarily infantry-led force can maintain them. This means they have a lighter chassis, which necessitates lighter armor and a lighter gun. The Leman Russ, while less flexible in its ginormous armored regiments, is on a heavy chassis with much more armor and firepower.

Just because someone is a master of none, doesn't mean they can't be above average in all. Flexibility means always having some degree of capacity where you need it when you need it. Using rock-paper-scissors as an analogy... If we look at the IG most companies are very specialized, in effect an IG formation is a rock, paper, or scissor formation... like an armored company, an airborne company, or a light infantry company. While being a jack of all trades means mastering none, it also means you are never outright defeated. Space Marines are always a rock, paper, and scissor... or they're like duct tape... meaning the battle they fight aren't going to be dictated by the enemies doctrine as much as it will be dictated only by the enemies ability to sufficiently and adequately counter all three facets at once. Imperial Guard size is as much a disadvantage as it is an an advantage. To counter a Space Marines force, and adequately bring to the fight elements to defeat all three facets requires a minimum of 3 distinct IG companies not just being on a planet but being in the vicinity of each other, which may or may not come from different planets with different levels of experience working together, all regardless of the size of the space marine formation. Proximity of those IG companies is a matter of luck because smaller size and complete mobility means SM would more often get to choose their battlefield. Space Marines will be overwhelmed, but they have the greater ability to avoid those situations.

People always talk about generalization as disadvantage, because most equate mastery to victory; what's often forgotten is that just like rock-paper-scissors mastery means inadequacy 2/3 of the time... since 1/3 of the time you completely lose, 1/3 of the time you stalemate. When one has scarce resources, generalization trumps specialization, and avoids turning your force into a Maginot line, frozen in place by its particular inadequacy.

Unfortunately, when you're outnumbered by people who have a mastery in every single art that you're merely above average in, you're in deep gak.

The IG Infantry Regiments are masters of infantry warfare. They will WTF pwn any Space Marine infantry forces. The IG Armored Regiments are masters of armored warfare; they will WTF pwn any Space Marine armored assets. Since the two are mutually supporting, then they will WTF pwn both Space Marine infantry and armored forces.

IG forces are always, without question, mixed. It does not come down to "luck" whether or not those three companies are near eachother. It comes down to doctrinal practice, and the Guard are nothing if not doctrinally adherent.

aka_mythos wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:
1-4,7,9) Provided that this is supposedly all the guard ever in one place, I think that any assigned-directly-to-regiment Naval assets will probably come along. This doesn't mean that the entire Imperial Navy comes along, though. The reason I say this is that many regiments would be crippled without the support of those aircraft, which is why the aircraft are put at the disposal of the ground forces.

5,10) You're right, but fortunately this is all the regiments in one place under a centralized command. No doubt the scout regiments will be doing their thing within the greater framework of the army. Which means that, while a Volpone Blueblood heavy-infantry regiment may not be able to scout, they will certainly be given attached resources who can.

7) In this case, you're right, the drop pod is marginally superior. I would contest, though, that the sheer number of available deployment aircraft available to the Guard would compensate. Additionally, the Valkyrie can take off and move troops to somewhere else - when Marines drop in with a pod, more marine forces would have to be committed to extract them. So drop-pod deployment isn't always good, either.

1-4, 7,9) Who said it was all guard in one place?-No ones has been that specific. Second the number of Valkyries in a given task force are generally insufficient to land all Imperial Guard, they simply rely on much larger landers to bring planet-side the majority of forces. This general scarcity is why they're largely reserved for Storm Troopers.

5,10) The Space Marine as an army could simply leave remove all their assets from a battlezone to evade those scout elements redeploying those forces where they aren't, effectually negating them.

7) Drop pods are a "here and now" asset. While a thunderhawk may need to extract a drop pod, its more a case of weighing the risk of losing a drop pod vs loosing many more units. In real life what does the soldier on the ground need reinforcements now or reinforcements 10-15 minutes from now? Win the battle and it doesn't matter you need to land a thunderhawk.

1-4, 7, 9) I assumed it was all the guard in one place based on the title IG vs. SM. I suppose it should be clarified or we cannot proceed. And yes, once the landing is secured with Valkyries, they bring in larger landers. This isn't a flaw, it's force concentration at its finest.

5,10) There isn't a place where those scout units *aren't* because of how the Imperial Guard operates. Scout regiments are rarely fielded as one formation, but split into companies and even sections, each element being attached to a regiment that has no integral scouts. Therefore, where there is a Guard regiment, there are some Guard scouts from a different, more specialized regiment.

7) There's a couple of problems assuming drop pods:
1) Unlike Valkyries, they require orbital support. Why don't the Guard receive their orbital support?
2) Although instantaneously arriving, again their extraction is not. They will be useful for reinforcement of beleaguered Marines, but they will not be able to move from that position once deployed without the application of additional assets. Throwing such assets into the fray puts them at the mercy of those oh-so-effective Air Defense Regiments, which are murder (as you can see from my point above).

@aka_mythos

You were speaking about the maneuverability of the Space Marines. He wasn't talking about the reinforcement options so much as the ability to redeploy to other areas, which, the Drop Pod clearly is incapable of doing. Where as the Valkyrie can simply come down and pick up a squad to move them to a new location. Which is a huge part of "maneuverability".

Also, you said, "Second the number of Valkyries in a given task force are generally insufficient to land all Imperial Guard, they simply rely on much larger landers to bring planet-side the majority of forces. This general scarcity is why they're largely reserved for Storm Troopers."

There are not supposed to be enough Valkyries to land the entire guard regiment, that would be a huge waste of resources. Again, we aren't speaking of bringing troops planet side. We are speaking of getting troops where they need to be as fast and as reliably as possible. It just so happens that the way the Astartes accomplish this is through planetary insersion. For the Guard, this isn't so much the case. Rather it is bringing in Valkyries to transport troops from one area to another. This is also where one of the flaws of the Astartes battle plan. Where the Imperial Guard's method of reinforcing and redeploying allows them to be both dropped off and picked up, the Astartes only allows them to be dropped off. Which means that if they are needed a couple minutes later in a new place, they are going to have to literally run there.

Your last sentence confuses me. I'm curious as to why you said that Valkyries are usually reserved for storm troopers. Because this is something that is made up. Partly because storm trooper squads, companies, and regiments aren't a part of a regiment other than their own. They are lent to regiments that are in need much like Valkyries are. Seeing as how Valkyries are MUCH more commonplace in the Guard as there are storm troopers, then this would be statistically impossible.

It is implied that "Imperial Guard vs Space Marines" means all the Imperial Guard vs all the Space Marines as had been talked about in the first few pages of the thread.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:I'm not saying it would be impossible to take out the commanders, just a lot harder than people are making it out to be. It's not so easy as just waltzing in, doing the job with nobody interfering at all and then getting out without a problem.

It's the job they're specifically designed to do. They'd get it done, and make it look easy. If they need to use Terminators, then thats what they'd do.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:As for the result of taking out the commanders? With some Guard armies that just won't do much.

It's not the confusion that is the point. It's the futility and fear of fighting an enemy who cannot be brought to battle, and who can strike directly at the commanding elements. Those very same commanding elements would quickly turn traitor or simply surrender when faced with such a situation. Maybe not all of them, but there'd be enough 'mere mortal' commanders in the bunch to make it a significant number.

Vaktathi wrote:That's requires an insane amount of information and intelligence, not to mention perfect coordination and timing, and relies on an enemy having pretty much no way to interfere with said deployment. In the case of most SM fluff, these things are pretty much all just ignored entirely. The SM's show up, instantly know exactly where their enemies are and their weakspots, and face no significant obstacles to simply showing up in the middle of their likely most fortified locations and producing magnificent victory

They are ignored, but the end result is often remarked upon, so we need to insert some handwavium to make it work. One can assume that there are all kinds of comms trackers and sensory devices on Space Marine ships, not to mention good old local intelligence.

Unit1126PLL wrote:3) The IG can drop from orbit too, in Valkyries.

Valkyries are not space-worthy. They have an operational ceiling of 13kms and cannot deploy from orbit.

Unit1126PLL wrote:]3) Maneuvering capabilities are roughly equal, with a slight advantage to the Guard just because their physical existence can cover more ground than the Marines'.

*sigh*

If the IG want to get somewhere, they need to land massive amounts of resources. They need to build an airfield for their aircraft, land entire barracks, and all the logistical gubbins required to support billions of guardsmen, then move all that stuff to their target area. Granted, they can deploy close-to or on-to their target initially, but any and all subsequent targets must be walked to.

Space Marines just Teleport right onto it.

Marines would never try to manuever on the ground, so any comparison to the IG is wasted.

Melissia wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:As far as the ground units go, good luck charging an Imperial gunline with Rhinos and Razorbacks, and even Land Raiders. (It is likely that there are fewer Land Raiders than their are entire battalions of Leman Russes).

Fixed.

Let's face it, one million space marines quite simply could not defeat the uncounted trillions of guardsmen, their billions of tanks and artillery pieces,a nd their millions of superheavy tanks.

Why would they be charging a defended IG position in the first place? Just to get somewhere? Why? They deploy from space, directly to their desired target.

Unless those billions of tanks are in the upper atmosphere, packed chasis to chasis while they hover above the ground, in order to provide a physical barrier to drop pods and Thawks, and simultaneously projecting a teleport proof barrier, then those billions of tanks are utterly worthless.

Kaldor wrote:

Sparks_Havelock wrote:I'm not saying it would be impossible to take out the commanders, just a lot harder than people are making it out to be. It's not so easy as just waltzing in, doing the job with nobody interfering at all and then getting out without a problem.

It's the job they're specifically designed to do. They'd get it done, and make it look easy. If they need to use Terminators, then thats what they'd do.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:As for the result of taking out the commanders? With some Guard armies that just won't do much.

It's not the confusion that is the point. It's the futility and fear of fighting an enemy who cannot be brought to battle, and who can strike directly at the commanding elements. Those very same commanding elements would quickly turn traitor or simply surrender when faced with such a situation. Maybe not all of them, but there'd be enough 'mere mortal' commanders in the bunch to make it a significant number.

Vaktathi wrote:That's requires an insane amount of information and intelligence, not to mention perfect coordination and timing, and relies on an enemy having pretty much no way to interfere with said deployment. In the case of most SM fluff, these things are pretty much all just ignored entirely. The SM's show up, instantly know exactly where their enemies are and their weakspots, and face no significant obstacles to simply showing up in the middle of their likely most fortified locations and producing magnificent victory

They are ignored, but the end result is often remarked upon, so we need to insert some handwavium to make it work. One can assume that there are all kinds of comms trackers and sensory devices on Space Marine ships, not to mention good old local intelligence.

Unit1126PLL wrote:3) The IG can drop from orbit too, in Valkyries.

Valkyries are not space-worthy. They have an operational ceiling of 13kms and cannot deploy from orbit.

Unit1126PLL wrote:]3) Maneuvering capabilities are roughly equal, with a slight advantage to the Guard just because their physical existence can cover more ground than the Marines'.

*sigh*

If the IG want to get somewhere, they need to land massive amounts of resources. They need to build an airfield for their aircraft, land entire barracks, and all the logistical gubbins required to support billions of guardsmen, then move all that stuff to their target area. Granted, they can deploy close-to or on-to their target initially, but any and all subsequent targets must be walked to.

Space Marines just Teleport right onto it.

Marines would never try to manuever on the ground, so any comparison to the IG is wasted.

Melissia wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:As far as the ground units go, good luck charging an Imperial gunline with Rhinos and Razorbacks, and even Land Raiders. (It is likely that there are fewer Land Raiders than their are entire battalions of Leman Russes).

Fixed.

Let's face it, one million space marines quite simply could not defeat the uncounted trillions of guardsmen, their billions of tanks and artillery pieces,a nd their millions of superheavy tanks.

Why would they be charging a defended IG position in the first place? Just to get somewhere? Why? They deploy from space, directly to their desired target.

Unless those billions of tanks are in the upper atmosphere, packed chasis to chasis while they hover above the ground, in order to provide a physical barrier to drop pods and Thawks, and simultaneously projecting a teleport proof barrier, then those billions of tanks are utterly worthless.

You know, providing the Marines with orbital support and removing the same from the Guard is a little one-sided in a sci-fi setting.

As for the rest of your arguments, you don't seem to understand.

The hard part for marines isn't *getting* into combat. It's surviving longer than an hour against unheard of numbers with very good quality training, excellent equipment, and a well-forged organization.

Kaldor wrote:Why would they be charging a defended IG position in the first place? Just to get somewhere? Why? They deploy from space, directly to their desired target.

Unless those billions of tanks are in the upper atmosphere, packed chasis to chasis while they hover above the ground, in order to provide a physical barrier to drop pods and Thawks, and simultaneously projecting a teleport proof barrier, then those billions of tanks are utterly worthless.

This garbage is just that-- garbage.

If one were to put all the Guardsmen in the Imperium on a single planet, including all equipment and tanks...

... the Astartes would not be able to finda place to land where they were not landing on Guardsmen.

It doesn't matter where the Marines land. They're dead.

In fact, there'd be so much anti-air fire, the Marines would never even make it to the ground in the first place.

The Imperial Guard outnumber and outgun the Marines THAT much.

Unit1126PLL wrote:You know, providing the Marines with orbital support and removing the same from the Guard is a little one-sided in a sci-fi setting.

It is, but it's the only way the scenario makes any sense. Really, whoever wins in space will win on the ground. In order to even have a battle between IG and Marines we need to assume that somehow, the Marines have won in space and weren't just vaporized by the Navy.

Which would have been the case.

As for the rest of your arguments, you don't seem to understand.

The hard part for marines isn't *getting* into combat. It's surviving longer than an hour against unheard of numbers with very good quality training, excellent equipment, and a well-forged organization.

They wouldn't need to survive more than five minutes. Thats the point. They just need to convince the IG to surrender. And if they refuse to surrender, well, each Battlebarge carries a cluster of exterminatus class weapons.

Melissia wrote:

Kaldor wrote:Why would they be charging a defended IG position in the first place? Just to get somewhere? Why? They deploy from space, directly to their desired target.

Unless those billions of tanks are in the upper atmosphere, packed chasis to chasis while they hover above the ground, in order to provide a physical barrier to drop pods and Thawks, and simultaneously projecting a teleport proof barrier, then those billions of tanks are utterly worthless.

This garbage is just that-- garbage.

If one were to put all the Guardsmen in the Imperium on a single planet, including all equipment and tanks...

... the Astartes would not be able to finda place to land where they were not landing on Guardsmen.

Several (as in, like, hundreds) of layers of guardsmen I might add.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kaldor wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:You know, providing the Marines with orbital support and removing the same from the Guard is a little one-sided in a sci-fi setting.

It is, but it's the only way the scenario makes any sense. Really, whoever wins in space will win on the ground. In order to even have a battle between IG and Marines we need to assume that somehow, the Marines have won in space and weren't just vaporized by the Navy.

Which would have been the case.

As for the rest of your arguments, you don't seem to understand.

The hard part for marines isn't *getting* into combat. It's surviving longer than an hour against unheard of numbers with very good quality training, excellent equipment, and a well-forged organization.

They wouldn't need to survive more than five minutes. Thats the point. They just need to convince the IG to surrender. And if they refuse to surrender, well, each Battlebarge carries a cluster of exterminatus class weapons.

So your plan is:
1) Use orbital assets against a ground-exclusive force
2) Claim victory

Well done lad! Maybe next time you can kick a tiny puppy and show it who's the real Space Marine!

Melissia wrote:

Kaldor wrote:Why would they be charging a defended IG position in the first place? Just to get somewhere? Why? They deploy from space, directly to their desired target.

Unless those billions of tanks are in the upper atmosphere, packed chasis to chasis while they hover above the ground, in order to provide a physical barrier to drop pods and Thawks, and simultaneously projecting a teleport proof barrier, then those billions of tanks are utterly worthless.

This garbage is just that-- garbage.

If one were to put all the Guardsmen in the Imperium on a single planet, including all equipment and tanks...

... the Astartes would not be able to finda place to land where they were not landing on Guardsmen.

It doesn't matter where the Marines land. They're dead.

So ask yourself, why would they land? What could they achieve? Really think about how the Astartes would win. Think about what 'winning' means. They don't need to kill the enemy, they don't need to capture his troops, drive him off certain parts of the planet, or capture ground. If they have nothing to gain by putting boots on the ground, then the IG have nothing to gain by defending it.

Kaldor wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Kaldor wrote:Why would they be charging a defended IG position in the first place? Just to get somewhere? Why? They deploy from space, directly to their desired target.

Unless those billions of tanks are in the upper atmosphere, packed chasis to chasis while they hover above the ground, in order to provide a physical barrier to drop pods and Thawks, and simultaneously projecting a teleport proof barrier, then those billions of tanks are utterly worthless.

This garbage is just that-- garbage.

If one were to put all the Guardsmen in the Imperium on a single planet, including all equipment and tanks...

... the Astartes would not be able to finda place to land where they were not landing on Guardsmen.

It doesn't matter where the Marines land. They're dead.

So ask yourself, why would they land? What could they achieve? Really think about how the Astartes would win. Think about what 'winning' means. They don't need to kill the enemy, they don't need to capture his troops, drive him off certain parts of the planet, or capture ground. If they have nothing to gain by putting boots on the ground, then the IG have nothing to gain by defending it.

Because this is a versus thread, and it's assumed that both sides will fight? Otherwise the thread is pointless?

Kaldor wrote:So ask yourself, why would they land?

Because that's the scenario in the original post.

Space Marines aren't Batman. They make tactical and strategic mistakes all the damn time.

Unit1126PLL wrote:Well done lad! Maybe next time you can kick a tiny puppy and show it who's the real Space Marine!

I'm reminded of a quote from Pirates of the Caribbean

"In a fair fight I'd kill you"

"Well thats not much incentive for me to fight fair, is it?"

It may not be 'tough' but it's effective. Winning is what matters, nothing else.

Russ Mandarin wrote:So if a conflict like this ever jumped off and every loyalist chapter banded together against the IG the chances of the Space Marines winning are still pretty low.
In light of this, how come the IG are not as respected as the astartes? I mean in my opinion if you take away the Guard the IoM is basically done for but if you take away the Space Marines the IoM can still mantain.

The Space Marines are genetically engineered super soldiers. The imperial guards are dumb grunts. I believe a few chapters of Space Marines could easily defeat the entire imperial guard.

Brother Thomas wrote:

Russ Mandarin wrote:So if a conflict like this ever jumped off and every loyalist chapter banded together against the IG the chances of the Space Marines winning are still pretty low.
In light of this, how come the IG are not as respected as the astartes? I mean in my opinion if you take away the Guard the IoM is basically done for but if you take away the Space Marines the IoM can still mantain.

The Space Marines are genetically engineered super soldiers. The imperial guards are dumb grunts. I believe a few chapters of Space Marines could easily defeat the entire imperial guard.

"A few chapters" of Space Marines would be vaporized before they hit the surface of the planet that the Imperial Guard were stationed on simply through sheer amount of fire-- we're talking about billions of anti-aircraft guns, with computer-assisted targeting firing at them. And they'd be utterly incapable of defending said planet if the Guard were attacking.

Melissia wrote:

Brother Thomas wrote:

Russ Mandarin wrote:So if a conflict like this ever jumped off and every loyalist chapter banded together against the IG the chances of the Space Marines winning are still pretty low.
In light of this, how come the IG are not as respected as the astartes? I mean in my opinion if you take away the Guard the IoM is basically done for but if you take away the Space Marines the IoM can still mantain.

The Space Marines are genetically engineered super soldiers. The imperial guards are dumb grunts. I believe a few chapters of Space Marines could easily defeat the entire imperial guard.

"A few chapters" of Space Marines would be vaporized before they hit the surface of the planet that the Imperial Guard were stationed on simply through sheer amount of fire-- we're talking about billions of anti-aircraft guns, with computer-assisted targeting firing at them. And they'd be utterly incapable of defending said planet if the Guard were attacking.

Who said the Adeptus Astartes were attacking?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not only that, whos to say the Adeptus Astarted won't just Virus bomb the entire planet?

Brother Thomas wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Brother Thomas wrote:

Russ Mandarin wrote:So if a conflict like this ever jumped off and every loyalist chapter banded together against the IG the chances of the Space Marines winning are still pretty low.
In light of this, how come the IG are not as respected as the astartes? I mean in my opinion if you take away the Guard the IoM is basically done for but if you take away the Space Marines the IoM can still mantain.

The Space Marines are genetically engineered super soldiers. The imperial guards are dumb grunts. I believe a few chapters of Space Marines could easily defeat the entire imperial guard.

"A few chapters" of Space Marines would be vaporized before they hit the surface of the planet that the Imperial Guard were stationed on simply through sheer amount of fire-- we're talking about billions of anti-aircraft guns, with computer-assisted targeting firing at them. And they'd be utterly incapable of defending said planet if the Guard were attacking.

Who said the Adeptus Astartes were attacking?


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Not only that, whos to say the Adeptus Astarted won't just Virus bomb the entire planet?

Without trying to be rude, but have you read the thread yet?

Negatve, I guess I am just arrogant in my beliefs of the Space Marines

Brother Thomas wrote:Negatve, I guess I am just arrogant in my beliefs of the Space Marines

Arrogant, ingnorant, and not adding anything of value to this discussion. Coming in here and saying the Guards (guards? what?) are dumb grunts is, well, dumb and there is no place for it. So if you are going to post on the topic, first you need to read the thread. Then you need to make thoughtful contributions to the thread.

Thank you.

Get off the butthurt stations. The Adeptus Astartes are far superior tacticians and warriors. I guarantee you that they would win, and coming from a USMC infantryman i feel very strongly huge men with exploding rifle rounds and power armor would annihilate simple guardsmen. So get off your high throne there bud.

Thanks... not

Marines virus bombing a planet is ludicrously rare to begin with, and if you want to play taht angle, then one can easily simply have an Inquisitor do the same when the Marines are defending, followed by having the Imperial Navy bombard the planet in to ashes.

No it isn't ridiculous, Space Marines fight to win and are not arrogant fools. Like I said they are tacticians. Secondly no one said the Space Marines were defending a planet either

Brother Thomas wrote:No it isn't ridiculous, Space Marines fight to win and are not arrogant fools.

... so do the Imperial Guard.

And Marines frequently do things which are foolish, and certainly there's plenty of depictions of marines as arrogant. And many times where they are both.

Brother Thomas wrote:Get off the butthurt stations. The Adeptus Astartes are far superior tacticians and warriors. I guarantee you that they would win, and coming from a USMC infantryman i feel very strongly huge men with exploding rifle rounds and power armor would annihilate simple guardsmen. So get off your high throne there bud.

Thanks... not

You don't need to come into a topic that has been remarkably calm considering how long it has been going on for and what we are dealing with. No one said they weren't better warriors, and I'm not convinced on the tacticians part. You can't guarantee anything, and I could care less that you are a USMC Infantryman. I'm only a year away from being commissioned as an Army Officer in the Infantry, so I understand the whole military angle you are trying to use. I respect you greatly for your service, and I thank you for it. But please keep this conversation civil. Everything works better that way.

Anyway, you do realize that people like you and I are the equivalent of those "simple guardsmen". Right?

Brother Thomas wrote:Get off the butthurt stations. The Adeptus Astartes are far superior tacticians and warriors. I guarantee you that they would win, and coming from a USMC infantryman i feel very strongly huge men with exploding rifle rounds and power armor would annihilate simple guardsmen. So get off your high throne there bud.

Thanks... not

*willy wonka meme*
So you are an infantry soldier. Tell me about how you know everything about 40k fluff large scale battles.


Back on topic though. If anyone read only a little fluff, you'll see that the Astartes makes a lot of tactical mistakes (specially when their ego is hurt, lol). Those that made close to no tactical mistakes were a couple of primarch (Horus before getting corrupted, Lion was pretty good too (talking tactical not about the Fallen here), Gulliman?, maybe a couple others that just doesnt come to my mind). Let's just say that the Astartes of today are mere copies (and not as strong) as the Astartes of the Heresy and that the primarch were waaaaaaaay better than the Astartes of that time. So the 40k Astartes are not tactical geniuses, they learn tactics just like the guard do, some does live long though and may have more experience than the guards though.

Ignatius wrote:

Brother Thomas wrote:Get off the butthurt stations. The Adeptus Astartes are far superior tacticians and warriors. I guarantee you that they would win, and coming from a USMC infantryman i feel very strongly huge men with exploding rifle rounds and power armor would annihilate simple guardsmen. So get off your high throne there bud.

Thanks... not

You don't need to come into a topic that has been remarkably calm considering how long it has been going on for and what we are dealing with. No one said they weren't better warriors, and I'm not convinced on the tacticians part. You can't guarantee anything, and I could care less that you are a USMC Infantryman. I'm only a year away from being commissioned as an Army Officer in the Infantry, so I understand the whole military angle you are trying to use. I respect you greatly for your service, and I thank you for it. But please keep this conversation civil. Everything works better that way.

Anyway, you do realize that people like you and I are the equivalent of those "simple guardsmen". Right?

\


Look "Sir". I was keeping in civil, There is nothing wrong with debate. If you're going to be a platoon commander in the infantry you need to get tough skin. I'm not trying to be disrespectful. Its simply a debate. So relax and enjoy it. Yes I am well aware I am the equivalent of a guardsmen. I wear flak jacket and a Kevlar, and I carry a m16. Not Power armor. If they ever ask for volunteers for a Power armor program though i'll be sure to volunteer.

Brother Thomas wrote:

Ignatius wrote:

Brother Thomas wrote:Get off the butthurt stations. The Adeptus Astartes are far superior tacticians and warriors. I guarantee you that they would win, and coming from a USMC infantryman i feel very strongly huge men with exploding rifle rounds and power armor would annihilate simple guardsmen. So get off your high throne there bud.

Thanks... not

You don't need to come into a topic that has been remarkably calm considering how long it has been going on for and what we are dealing with. No one said they weren't better warriors, and I'm not convinced on the tacticians part. You can't guarantee anything, and I could care less that you are a USMC Infantryman. I'm only a year away from being commissioned as an Army Officer in the Infantry, so I understand the whole military angle you are trying to use. I respect you greatly for your service, and I thank you for it. But please keep this conversation civil. Everything works better that way.

Anyway, you do realize that people like you and I are the equivalent of those "simple guardsmen". Right?

\


Look "Sir". I was keeping in civil, There is nothing wrong with debate. If you're going to be a platoon commander in the infantry you need to get tough skin. I'm not trying to be disrespectful. Its simply a debate. So relax and enjoy it. Yes I am well aware I am the equivalent of a guardsmen. I wear flak jacket and a Kevlar, and I carry a m16. Not Power armor. If they ever ask for volunteers for a Power armor program though i'll be sure to volunteer.

You don't call me sir, I haven't been commissioned yet and I am only a Cadet right now. I enjoy debate, as long as it sounds intelligent and well meaning. Notice how my replies have been thought out, and dispite what some liberals would consider verbal abuse, I have been nothing but relaxed and have in fact thank you for both your service and in keeping your civility. Now I would appreciate it if this could be the end of this and we can get back on topic.

Brother Thomas wrote:No it isn't ridiculous, Space Marines fight to win and are not arrogant fools. Like I said they are tacticians. Secondly no one said the Space Marines were defending a planet either

And here I thought Brother_Coa and Tadashi were the only ones drinking the anointed Bolter Oil...

Space Marines lack numbers. Despite their surgical precision, Chapter Tactics, Codex Tactics, instructional drilling, space-to-ground insertions, Space Marines can't go far unless the enemy their attacking is distracted, which, in most casses, with the Imperial Guard.

Kaldor wrote: Space Marines just Teleport right onto it.

Not all Space Marines use teleportation. Only the most veteran, Elite units of the Space Marines are reserved the right to teleport into battle, with the aid of a beacon already on the surface. So just saying they can teleport right onto an objective is not telling the whole story.

One can assume that there are all kinds of comms trackers and sensory devices on Space Marine ships, not to mention good old local intelligence.

And yet, somehow the Imperial Augurs and Sensor Nets cannot pick up humongeous Battle Barges from space?