Imperial guard vs Space Marines

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**Hunterindarkness**

Kovnik Obama wrote:

Both statements are directly in contradictions to statements by GW officials. You are both factually (as in actual facts, not made-up facts about an imaginary setting) wrong.

No, both statements are correct. GW's mismanagement of its own product does not change that, GW contradicts things six times a day, they do a crap job of managing the setting and do not understand what "Canon" means. None of that change facts. Core rule books are first source, what amounts to licensed products are 2nds or 3rd source products.

You simply don't like that fact they make your "source " out as overblown, kinda silly and flat out imposable.

**Kovnik Obama**

No. There is no ''hermeneutics of 40k'', no application of historico-critical method. A canon requires an authority to make it so (as evidenced by the religious origin of the word). A story setting which doesn't have a certain level of coercition on it's author is a setting without canon. If the authority behind some fluff says, ''well, another author might represent it differently, and he wouldn't be more right than me'', that again is a setting without canon.

See the difference between old World of Darkness fluff and WoD 2.0? That's the one.

**KingDeath**

Kovnik Obama wrote:
Can I get a source, please? I remember something about a SM ship sacrificing itself... ? (Edit; So I guess it was the Battlefleet's flagship which sacrificed itself?)

In any way, this seem to support my point, tho. Maccrage was defended by a Chapter, with honourable (and posthume) mention going to 3 other Chapters.
A Battlefleet had to lose 200 ships to finish up what was mostly accomplished by 4 Chapters.

Codex Tyranids 4.edition p.14 ( unlike the current dex it includes the numbers for the Tempestus fleet ). Your assumption that the Ultramarines won the war in space is incorrect.
Codex Tyranids 5.edtion p.14 tells us that Calgar's fleet, after being defeated near Macragge, pursued the hivefleet to the rings of Circe where it was ambushed by a much larger, second Tyranid fleet.
The planned and timely arrival of the Tempestus Fleet and especialy the sacrifice of the Emperor class battleship Dominus Astra ( despite the arrival of Admiral Rath's fleet the battle was going in the swarm's favour ) made the imperial victory possible.

**Hunterindarkness**

Sigh, no. canon does not change, just because you are to lazy to manage it. 40k has canon, its badly manged but there. The primary source GW uses are the rule books. BL stuff often are not even really in the same setting as other books sometimes those written by the same guy.

Look man, you have one source that is overruled by most others, including sources that deal only with ship combat, ships and ship weapons. They overrule something written by someone who ignored them to "tell a good story"

That good story does not change the facts SM's would die long, long,long before even closing to med range on a battleship.

**Kovnik Obama**

Personal criticisms toward another poster are not needed or appropriate, and usually constitute a breach of Rule #1. -Mannahnin

"In fiction, canon is the conceptual material accepted as "official" in a fictional universe's fan base. It is often contrasted with, or used as the basis for, works of fan fiction, which are not considered canonical. It is used in two slightly different meanings: first, "it refers to the overall set of storylines, premises, settings, and characters offered by the source media text".[1]:28 In this sense, canon is "the original work from which the fan fiction author borrows,"[2] or "the original media on which the fan fictions are based."[3] Secondly, it is used "as a descriptor of specific incidents, relationships, or story arcs that take place within the overall canon"; thus certain incidents or relationships may be described as being canon or not.[1]:32 The alternative term mythology is often used, especially to refer either to a richly detailed fictional canon requiring a large degree of suspension of disbelief (e.g. an entire imaginary world and history), or to a central thread of storytelling running through a broad fictional canon that may episodically wander into many side plots with little connection to that thread."

-Canon (literary concept), Wikipedia

The first sense is inapplicable, from GW's admission that all BL fiction is official fiction. Or it's applicable, but only when comparing GW's and BL's and FFL's books to the fan-fict section of Dakka. The second meaning refers directly to the need of an authority to lend absolute credence to some elements of the fiction, which they have officially declined to do.

Basically, not all IP have a canon. Making something, or anything canon is an IP management decision, and as nothing to do with your opinion. It has everything to do with the stated facts of the authority (GW).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

KingDeath wrote:Codex Tyranids 4.edition p.14 ( unlike the current dex it includes the numbers for the Tempestus fleet ). Your assumption that the Ultramarines won the war in space is incorrect.

Holy crap thanks for the digging. And was

Codex Tyranids 5.edtion p.14 tells us that Calgar's fleet, after being defeated near Macragge, pursued the hivefleet to the rings of Circe where it was ambushed by a much larger, second Tyranid fleet.

This ever mentioned in the previous Space Marines Codexi? I'm not sure anymore about my Maccrage fluff, I wonder if it's because of retcons, or just plain bad memory...? I'm not sure I want to dig again through it...

Anyway, thanks!

**Hunterindarkness**

Kovnik Obama wrote:

Basically, not all IP have a canon. Making something, or anything canon is an IP management decision, and as nothing to do with your opinion. It has everything to do with the stated facts of the authority (GW).

sigh, yet canon says the very thing written about in that BL book CAN. NOT. HAPPEN.Stop hiding behind the same lazy excuse they do.

GW says they are both Canon, yet they honestly can not be. Either BFG and everything else about Ships are correct or that BL book is. "Both" is an example of Canon contradicting itself. In cases that happen you look over all of it and if one of the sources simply does not fit the others it is then incorrect.

You have yet to explain how the BB got close enough to board the BS or how 5 men, even termies lived. It comes down to pure Writer fiat which honestly goes agines other examples we have of Canon.

**Kovnik Obama**

I'm back home, and can correct a few things I stated on the Crythe Invasion. The Covenant of Blood is a Strike Cruiser. The Chaos Astartes fleet contained three major ships, bigger, but I didn't find their class. In all it sounded like about 15 Traitor ships. The Covenant of Blood took on the Gothic Class The Resolute and another one, I'll try to find the class. Basically, they engaged while allowing another (Black Legion) ship to take the brunt of the fire, than ran a plunge called insidious predation (!?!) which brought them between the two ships to be eliminated. They also sent 18 marines onboard, but only 5 actually made it to the helm (the rest survived, but got bogged down/took out secondary targets) Here's a bit more.

The NL modus operandi :

“It has been said by tacticians throughout the ages of mankind that no plan
survives contact with the enemy. I do not waste my time countering the plans of my
foes, brother. I never care what the enemy intends to do, for they will never be
allowed to do it. Stir within their hearts the gift of truest terror, and all their plans
are ruined in the desperate struggle merely to survive.”
—The Primarch Konrad Curze,
Allegedly speaking to his brother,
Sanguinius of the Blood Angels

That particular Captain (a deamon prince, actually), the Exalted ;

This was his gift. The Exalted knew void war, seeing its grandeur within his swollen mind the way other men saw the weapons in their hands.
[...]
Its reputation—and, by extension, the reputation of the warband that had once been the 10th Company—was assured through a record of space battles won, largely thanks to the void warfare skills of the Exalted.[...]
The Exalted likened void war to the feeding frenzy of sharks.
[...]
Each ship was a shark swimming in the three-dimensional battlefield of space, and only the most talented fleet commanders could harness their instincts and bring their forces together into an efficient hunting pack.
[...]
He was no fleet commander. His own talents had never been in bringing about such a pack unity.
[...]
In fact, quite the opposite. He had no desire to inspire tactical union within the fleets he sailed with. All he cared about was the dissolution of order within the enemy’s armada.The easiest way to win a void battle was to ensure no enemy commander achieved tactical unity for his own forces. If their overall cohesion was compromised, each vessel could be isolated from any potential support and torn apart, alone, piece by piece.

The battle itself :

Even a cursory glance at the occulus revealed to the Exalted that the battle result was inevitable. The Imperial fleet was doomed.
[...]
Two Imperial ships stood out from the pack. Two targets that had to be destroyed in order to dissolve the hopes of tactical unity.
[...]
The larger ship was still target-locked on the Warmaster’s attacking vessels— it had had no time to bring its furious weapons array to bear on the new arrival yet—although the support ships in its shadow began to power up to destroy the racing Night Lords cruiser plunging into their midst.
[...]
The Exalted watched as one of the icons situated behind the Covenant’s symbol winked out of existence. The Unblinking Eye was no more, coming to pieces under the final assault of the Resolute. A Black Legion ship: one of the Warmaster’s own.
[...]
Then it was the Covenant’s turn. The strategium shuddered again, and not gently. But the shields were holding
[...]
The Resolute had been his first target because its shields were already down. He’d known from the moment the battle hololithic display had flickered into life that, from its place in the formation, the Gothic-class cruiser had fallen back from the fighting to restore its void shields.
[...]
The Exalted snarled harsh manoeuvre orders, and the Covenant strained to obey. It began below the Resolute, and with engines howling, it climbed hard. Shields still holding, rippling as they reflected incoming fire, the strike cruiser sliced almost vertically up past the Resolute’s starboard side. The Night Lords ship presented almost no target to the masses of broadsides, though they fired anyway.
[...]
Running abeam of the ship would have allowed for a more standard exchange of heavy broadside batteries as the ships coasted alongside each other, but lancing vertically seemed to achieve nothing at all. Although the Resolute’s broadside volley went tearing off into space, completely wasted, the Covenant’s weapons batteries would have also done almost nothing—if they had actually fired. The guns of the Night Lords vessel remained silent.
[...]
All this smiling made the creature weep more aching tears. They had just run a gauntlet of Imperial vessels through the heart of the enemy fleet, and by the time the officers of the Resolute realised what had happened, three squads of Astartes would be butchering their way to the command decks.
[...]
One down, one to go.
[...]
The Exalted licked its lips with a black tongue. “Fire all forward lances and torpedoes at hull section 63 as we move across her bow. Time the firing of the bombardment cannon to coincide with the exact moment our lances and torpedoes strike.”
[...]
“My lord, Exalted of the Dark Gods… This attack vector will bring us within the Sword’s firing solution for fifteen seconds.” “Thirteen,” the Exalted corrected with a death’s head grin. “And that is why as soon as we fire our prow weapons, the ship will execute a Coronus Dive, full burn on the engines with port thrusters overloaded by seventy per cent. We will roll while holding maximum sustainable negative yaw and pitch for ten seconds.”
[...]
Lord… we’re too large a vessel for—” “Silence. You will coordinate this attack run with main armament weapons fire from the vessels Ironmonger, Vengeful Spirit, and the Blade of Flame. Align with their strategiums and inform them of our intent.”
[...]
To all observers, it seemed the Covenant of Blood was sacrificing itself in a ramming run. And it would succeed, too. That much weight, inertia and explosive capability would burn out the Sword’s shields and gut the ship to its core.
But the Covenant didn’t ram its prey.
[...]
It returned fire just as its shields died, unleashing a blistering barrage of lances, solid shells and plasma fire from its prow weapons batteries, as well as a precisely timed single magma bomb warhead, principally designed for surface attack, from its bombardment cannon.
[...]
All of this unleashed punishment was enough, barely, to achieve the Exalted’s desires. The colossal Sword of the God-Emperor, pride of Battlefleet Crythe, flagship of Lord Admiral Valiance Arventaur, no longer shimmered behind an invincible
screen of rippling energy.
[...]
They would be back online within moments—a minute at the very most—multi-layered and strong once more. The Covenant of Blood veered sharper than a cruiser of its size had any right to do, throwing itself into a potentially terminal rolling dive alongside and past the grand cruiser it had almost rammed. Alarms hammered the senses of all her crew across the ship. The bladed spear of a vessel roared down into its dive, takingsecondary fire from the Sword’s broadsides as it plunged past. It didn’t return fire.
[...]
Halfway through its plunge, the Exalted felt that one perfect moment of connection with the battle.
Here.
Now.
Even as his ship was being torn apart by Imperial guns, he felt the moment with unbroken clarity, and growled a single word.
“Launch.”

And that sealed the naval battle for Crythe. Sorry for the huge post, but I got myself immersed in the battle. Honestly, Aaron Dembski-Bowden is awesome.

**Hunterindarkness**

First off thank ya. I can now see some of the issues.

Kovnik Obama wrote:I'm back home, and can correct a few things I stated on the Crythe Invasion. The Covenant of Blood is a Strike Cruiser. The Chaos Astartes fleet contained three major ships, bigger, but I didn't find their class. In all it sounded like about 15 Traitor ships. The Covenant of Blood took on the Gothic Class The Resolute and another one, I'll try to find the class. Basically, they engaged while allowing another (Black Legion) ship to take the brunt of the fire, than ran a plunge called insidious predation (!?!) which brought them between the two ships to be eliminated. They also sent 18 marines onboard, but only 5 actually made it to the helm (the rest survived, but got bogged down/took out secondary targets) Here's a bit more.

A Gothic class, is a cruiser. Not a battle cruiser, or grand cruiser or Battleship. Shes large, but "Common" and in scale of power to a strike cruiser with weapons of the same range. It seems they handled it better then it sounded( Gods know memory recall does that )and went 'head hunting". all that is much more doable and in line with everything else. Sorry main it was seeming to me by what was posted they went straight in alone vs a much ,much more powerful ship and sent only 5 men. Based off what you shown here that was not the case.

Kovnik Obama wrote:
And that sealed the naval battle for Crythe. Sorry for the huge post, but I got myself immersed in the battle. Honestly, Aaron Dembski-Bowden is awesome.

Based off that he wrote it much better then it sounded. I have not read many 40k books i have vastly enjoyed. Most of those have been Abnett, you recommend this guy as well I take it? I have been reading 40k books based off recommendations as they are very,very hit and miss I have found.

**Kovnik Obama**

A Gothic class, is a cruiser. Not a battle cruiser, or grand cruiser or Battleship. Shes large, but "Common" and in scale of power to a strike cruiser with weapons of the same range.

Cool. I really wasn't sure about the battle-barge being the class. But ADB later stated that a Battle Barge was a bigger ship then a strike cruiser, was that correct?

Sorry main it was seeming to me by what was posted they went straight in alone vs a much ,much more powerful ship and sent only 5 men.

Nah, this isn't the Black Templars against the Necrons

I have not read many 40k books i have vastly enjoyed. Most of those have been Abnett, you recommend this guy as well I take it? I have been reading 40k books based off recommendations as they are very,very hit and miss I have found.

Yeah. I get exactly what you mean. And yeah, I actually recommend that one very much. It shows a (humane) side of the Traitor Marines that we are not used to seeing. It's a much better book, then, let's say, the whole Word Bearer serie, which made it absolutely impossible to relate on any level to the characters.

**Hunterindarkness**

Kovnik Obama wrote:

Cool. I really wasn't sure about the battle-barge being the class. But ADB later stated that a Battle Barge was a bigger ship then a strike cruiser, was that correct?

Yeah. SM ships as a whole are smaller with a smaller number of crew as they tend to have more servitor control. A BB is more a planetary assault vessel, often the flag ship and pretty good sized ships, but are no match for something like a battleship. SM in the current ear are kinda limited to "Transport" vessels. Which both a strike cruiser and a Bb technically are. They are powerful ships, but devote much space to transporting SM , where a normal Ship of the Line just pack on more weapons and fighters.

Kovnik Obama wrote:
Yeah. I get exactly what you mean. And yeah, I actually recommend that one very much. It shows a (humane) side of the Traitor Marines that we are not used to seeing. It's a much better book, then, let's say, the whole Word Bearer serie, which made it absolutely impossible to relate on any level to the characters.

I have not heard good things about that set, so have avoided it.

**Kaldor**

Hunterindarkness wrote:The IN have both twenty or thirty times the number of capital ships in a single sector and range.

I asked the question, because this is actually a really imnportant point. The numbers you give here:

Hunterindarkness wrote:How so not huge? 150-200 active warships per sector, is fething massive.

I would like to know a source for.

You see, the battlefleet is called battlefleet Tempestus. As in, Segmentum Tempestus. As in, thats the entire fighting strength of the Segmentum. Are we sure these numbers are right? That would, assuming all segmentums have a roughly comparable number, give us the entire fighting strength of the Imperial navy at roughly 1,000 ships.

We'll assume it's incorrect, and that a sector fleet is actually 200 ships. That gives us roughly 13,000 ships per segmentum, and 70,000 ships for the Imperial Navy to play with.

Now, this is only ball-park figures in the very loosest sense. Taking the standard galactic map, and using the distance between Earth and the Galactic Centre as a frame of reference, and assuming that each sector is about 200 light years cubed, we can work out that there should be about 135 sectors in the Segmentum Tempestus.

However, the Imperium of Man does not control all space. Large swathes of space are unexplored or occupied by enemy forces.

I think it is fair to say that only 50% of space within a segmentum is actually occupied by an Imperial Sector. If any numbers are going to be contentious, it's this one.

IF we assume around 65 sectors for Segementum Tempestus, at 200 ships per sector, we have 13,000 for the entire Segmentum, and if we assume that each Segmentum is comparable to the other we get 65,000 ships for the entire Navy.

Why do I think this is important?

Because the Marines have around 12,000 ships of their own. Which is a huge portion of the IoM's naval capabilities, and a force easily able to go toe-to-toe with any Segmentum battlefleet.

**ContemplativeSphinx**

Kovnik Obama wrote:See the difference between old World of Darkness fluff and WoD 2.0? That's the one.

Interesting. Your the 12th person i've seen use the above as a shorthand for the situation re: canonicity.

In truth it may simply be the way the wind is blowing for RPG and wargaming companies with an RPG element.

The "indeterminate sandbox with a few set themes" is a much easier creature to control than "decade spanning metaplot written by over a dozen writers/game designers and carefully fact checked to prevent any inconsistency whatsoever."

**Hunterindarkness**

Kaldor wrote:

Because the Marines have around 12,000 ships of their own. Which is a huge portion of the IoM's naval capabilities, and a force easily able to go toe-to-toe with any Segmentum battlefleet.

well first off I was using numbers some one else had gave, but even if they have 12'000, which I do not think they do that's IoM wide. It would be hard to guess how many numbers they really have. some chapters will have large fleets and some tiny. It is known it is rare for a chapter to have more then 1 or 2 BB's, some have three. We know some use real warships such as the space wolves battleship. the state of 40k fluff makes it about impossible to know real numbers but 12'000 is as good a guess as any. However that assumes they are allowed to mass as one fleet, its rare for a segmentums fleet to do so, i don't know of nay time off hand the whole fleet has gathered.

sector per sector the SM navy simply stands no chance. But then they have been sit up that way.

I am also pretty sure you have it wrong on fleet size, a sector fleet is huge. I'll see if i can hunt up some sources a bit later.

**Kaldor**

Hunterindarkness wrote:sector per sector the SM navy simply stands no chance. But then they have been sit up that way.

It all depends on the circumstances of the hypothetical, but it's an interesting point to consider, and makes the Astartes even more vital to the Imperial Navy, equating to about a 20% increase in resources Imperium wide.

**Hunterindarkness**

Eh most the ships they are are classified as 'transports", even if they are not. And a good amount of the SM fleet seems to be screening ships such as destroyers and such.

The SM fleet is set up for planetary action, not space battles. they can do it, just not as well as a fleet meant for that job.

As I said I'll see if I can hunt numbers up..but eh its GW fluff so who knows

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here we go, some numbers we can work with (assuming they are still canon)

p.86 BFG Rule Book. "normally a sector fleet contains between 50-75 ships, Although some sector will have more or less according to importance"

It goes on to say that this does not count transports, scouting ship, shuttles and the like.

I am pretty sure I have seen such numbers somewhere for SM chapters that put them under 12 ships. But honestly i can't recall where right now.

Edit: Sm stuff

Fleets of the Imperial navy p. 22-26

Battlbarges are giving as 2-3 per chapter. Most chapters, a few having more, some having less. Holds three companies.
Strike cruisers number are not given, but called "Rare" next to navy warships. Hold a full company of SM's

They use Firestorms, Cobras ,swords, Hunters, Gladius and Nova's.Numbers are not listed.

Now taking that into acrount we can give the avg chapter 2 BB and 4 SC as that would carry the whole chapter, say that number again in escorts so yeah about 12-15 ships per chapter.

**Engine of War**

Shippys for you.

i couldn't find one without the Star Wars comparison (it seems to show the ships in every incarnation of star wars. video game, movie, you name it.

40k ships on the bottom underneath the Super Star Destroyer.

I can't find a "Gothic Class" in the picture. but there are the Lunar, Endevour Light Cruiser, Dictator class cruisers, and Dark Templar Escort Cruiser, with the SM having 2 smaller "Strike Cruisers". One is standard SM while the Other is GK (and is larger)

the Normal Space Marine Battle Barge doesn't have the same sheer size and bulk of a full blown battleship but is just as long.

There are 2 SM ships that are increadibly large. the "Mobile Chapter Fortress" which i would assume i could probly count on 1 hand the number that exist. and a "Maladictors battle barge"

Otherwise there are the REtrobution class Batlteships and all the other Navy ships under it like the Grand Cruisers.

Lexicanums list...
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperial_Navy_Vessels_(List)

Mind you not every ship on the list is show in the size comparison picture, some ships in the list even dwarf that Mobile chapter fortress thing.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gothic_Cruiser
This is your gothic class. From what i can deduce its slightly smaller then a Lunar class (on the chart)

a Gothic is not a significant "threat" to a Battle Barge. it has powerful lance batterys but from what i can imagine it doesn't matter that 5 marines took it.

now... if 5 took a Retrobution class or a Emperor class battleship i would be impressed but they havn't and cannot.

Edit: continued looking through Lexicanum and i can't find that gigantic "Mobile Chapter Fortress" anywhere nor the Maladoctor Barge variant.
it only shows the normal Barge. a Strike Cruiser, frigates and the few smaller ships under their control (like thunderhawks and things)
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Marine_Vessels_(List)

**Hunterindarkness**

Good chart. Yeah BB are large, but they are mostly dedicated to putting three companies of SM on the ground. They really only have the firepower to hold off a cruiser or perhaps Grand cruiser.

To be fair thre Gothic is on the small side of Cruisers and while a BB could waste it, a strike cruiser would have a rough, rough way to go as the gothic is better in about every way.

**Engine of War**

Hunterindarkness wrote:Good chart. Yeah BB are large, but they are mostly dedicated to putting three companies of SM on the ground. They really only have the firepower to hold off a cruiser or perhaps Grand cruiser.

To be fair thre Gothic is on the small side of Cruisers and while a BB could waste it, a strike cruiser would have a rough, rough way to go as the gothic is better in about every way.

Agreed. a Battle barge vs a Gothic would be a 1 sided battle. but a Strike Cruiser vs a Gothic would be different.

reading into the Strike cruiser....... Its built for Troop Deployment and light planatary bombardment, being armed akin to a Light cruiser in the Imperial navy a Gothic would tear a stiek cruiser in half with its Anti ship Lance batteries.

**Hunterindarkness**

Yeah it would. the Strike cruiser is a small but better armored then a light cruiser, but that is it. a real cruiser would eat it. Sm ships are more or less gutted to do the job or deployment.

**Engine of War**

Oh and Lexicanum says somethign about Chapters holding from 1 to 3 battle Barges (depending on chapter) and other ships. giving them the low end in terms of ship numbers.

and nigh all SM ships are built for either planetary attack or Troop Deployment. (cause thats what the Codex Astartes says they must be built for!)
Apparently if there was a Sm ship that was built for fighting other ships then every starts to complain about it (everyone being the Inqusition, Mechanicus, High Lords, Navy) as its the Navys job for killing other ships.

the Sm have 1 such ship the Nova Frigate (armed with a lance battery on its front end) but due to everyones complaints they are extreamly rare and rarly ever venture away from SM worlds.

Argument is: SM ships could destroy Imperial navy Ships.

Conclusion: SM ships are built for other tasks entirly and the Navy is built to kill other space craft. Not only that SM ships are fewer in number and do not have the firepower to stand up to a proper Imperial Navy Warship.

end result: Sm ships are swamped by the sheer firepower and numbers of the Imperial Navy.
Navy Wins. (and by extension Guard win too. and still.... in an all out ground battle IG WIN! Numbers and sheer firepower dominates over Space marines!!)

**Hunterindarkness**

Well a BB holds 3 companies. They really do not ever need over 2-3 as they only have 10 total companies. The rest of it would be filled out with single company SC.

Its a safe bet that they hold about 2 Bb and 4 SC on avg. They have no need for any more, They have some small escort craft such as the firestorm, sword, cobra, nova, gladius and such. The reason the Nova gets disliked is it is a pure warship, true a small one but it does not carry Sm squads and the like. But in the end those small ships are only a threat in large numbers to anything other then escorts or transports.

**Unit1126PLL**

The IN vs. SM argument is kind of funny, because using the Battlefleet Gothic fluff as a guide, the SM are in trouble.

1) Weapons:
The SM use "bombardment cannons" who are used to hit planets. They do not possess the traverse speed or targeting capabilities to reliably hit space targets, and so tend to rely on volume of fire (much like Weapons Batteries, the smallest guns on Imperial Navy ships).

The SM do sometimes use torpedoes, but overall tend to have much less ordnance in space than the IN per ship.

The IN has a virtual monopoly on lance batteries and nova cannons.

2) Defenses:
Space Marine vessels tend to be tougher on the whole because of increased armored protection, although IN ships are no slouch either.

The IN tends to have more point-defense turrets than SM ships on the whole.

3) Notes:
Unfortunately for the Marines, increased armored protection is completely worthless against lance batteries, which the IN fields in large numbers.

This makes the hypothetical encounter of, say, an Apocalypse-class battlecruiser with a Battle-barge so hilariously one-sided it's not even comparable.

4) Numbers:
The SM usually only have a few battle-barges per chapter. This means that they will always and forever be outnumbered by the IN on a stupidly disparate scale. Sort of like the IG.

**Kaldor**

A Battlebarge and Battleship are pretty much comparable to one another. They are a similar size, and although a Battleship will usually have longer range weaponry, the Battlebarge is better armoured and the destructive power of bombardment cannons easily make up the difference.

Strike cruisers are a step between a Navy light cruiser like a Dauntless, and a Gothic/Lunar class cruiser. They are better armoured, comparably armed, have launch bays and better shielding than a light cruiser, but less armament and smaller structure than a ship-of-the-line like a Gothic or Lunar class (although still better armour).

If we pit the entire Navy against the entire Space Marine fleet, it's heavily stacked against the Marines, but it's not insurmountable. They'd be outnumbered about 5 to 1, so they'd need to find a way to even those odds.

**Bobthehero**

Bombardements cannon... against ship?

**Kaldor**

Bobthehero wrote:Bombardements cannon... against ship?

Yup.

**Hazardous Harry**

Kaldor wrote:A Battlebarge and Battleship are pretty much comparable to one another. They are a similar size, and although a Battleship will usually have longer range weaponry, the Battlebarge is better armoured and the destructive power of bombardment cannons easily make up the difference.

Sorry, are you honestly saying that bombardment cannons are going to be a fair match up against an array of lance weaponry?

Hell, nevermind the torpedoes and ridiculous amounts of ordnance the Navy could dish out, on basic weaponry alone the the Imperial Navy will outshoot the Astartes anyday. To even inflict casualties the Astartes need to close the distance and board, and they simply won't be able to do that without getting shot to pieces.

If we pit the entire Navy against the entire Space Marine fleet, it's heavily stacked against the Marines, but it's not insurmountable. They'd be outnumbered about 5 to 1, so they'd need to find a way to even those odds.

They would be outnumbered a whole lot more than that.

**Kaldor**

Hazardous Harry wrote:
Kaldor wrote:A Battlebarge and Battleship are pretty much comparable to one another. They are a similar size, and although a Battleship will usually have longer range weaponry, the Battlebarge is better armoured and the destructive power of bombardment cannons easily make up the difference.

Sorry, are you honestly saying that bombardment cannons are going to be a fair match up against an array of lance weaponry?

lolwut?

Just going by the BFG game, hardly a strict standard I know but the only source I can think of for a comparison:

A Retribution class Battlship has:

Port and Starboard weapons batteries at Strength 12. The number shots these get are calculated by the gunnery table, so you'll rarely get all 12 shots. Each shot needs to roll equal to or over the targets armour value.

A single Dorsal lance battery at Strength 3. You'll always get these three shots, and the power behind them means they always hit on a 4+ regardless of the targets armour value.

A Battlebarge has Strength 12 Weapons batteries as well, although at 45cm range as opposed to the Battleships 60cm.

It also has a Strength 8 Bombardment cannon. This also needs to use the gunnery table, so you'll again rarely get all 8 shots, but they also always hit on a 4+ and also cause a critical hit on a 4+.

Yes, the Battleship outranges the Battlebarge, but the barge has better armour and sports launch bays of its own.

Yes, you bet I'm saying bombardment cannons are a fair match for lances.

Hazardous Harry wrote:
If we pit the entire Navy against the entire Space Marine fleet, it's heavily stacked against the Marines, but it's not insurmountable. They'd be outnumbered about 5 to 1, so they'd need to find a way to even those odds.

They would be outnumbered a whole lot more than that.

Says who? Where are your figures?

**Hazardous Harry**

Kaldor wrote:
Hazardous Harry wrote:
Kaldor wrote:A Battlebarge and Battleship are pretty much comparable to one another. They are a similar size, and although a Battleship will usually have longer range weaponry, the Battlebarge is better armoured and the destructive power of bombardment cannons easily make up the difference.

Sorry, are you honestly saying that bombardment cannons are going to be a fair match up against an array of lance weaponry?

lolwut?

Just going by the BFG game, hardly a strict standard I know but the only source I can think of for a comparison:

A Retribution class Battlship has:

Port and Starboard weapons batteries at Strength 12. The number shots these get are calculated by the gunnery table, so you'll rarely get all 12 shots. Each shot needs to roll equal to or over the targets armour value.

A single Dorsal lance battery at Strength 3. You'll always get these three shots, and the power behind them means they always hit on a 4+ regardless of the targets armour value.

A Battlebarge has Strength 12 Weapons batteries as well, although at 45cm range as opposed to the Battleships 60cm.

It also has a Strength 8 Bombardment cannon. This also needs to use the gunnery table, so you'll again rarely get all 8 shots, but they also always hit on a 4+ and also cause a critical hit on a 4+.

Yes, the Battleship outranges the Battlebarge, but the barge has better armour and sports launch bays of its own.

Yes, you bet I'm saying bombardment cannons are a fair match for lances.

Look at the Apocalypse Class Battleship, now at your Battlebarge, now back to the Apocalypse. Sadly, your Battlebarge isn't the Apocalypse, but it could dish out a jaw-dropping amount of firepower like the Apocalypse if it stopped using its meagre batteries and bombardments and started using ship-killing lances like the Apocalypse.

I'm firing a Nova Cannon.

Hazardous Harry wrote:
If we pit the entire Navy against the entire Space Marine fleet, it's heavily stacked against the Marines, but it's not insurmountable. They'd be outnumbered about 5 to 1, so they'd need to find a way to even those odds.

They would be outnumbered a whole lot more than that.

Says who? Where are your figures?

Have you even been reading this thread? Each chapter, depending on their respective wealth and whether or not they a fleet-based, will have numbers of about 1-5 Battlebarges. So let's say about 3. That's 3000 Battlebarges in operation throughout the Imperium. If you were correct in saying they'd only be outnumbered 5 to 1 (which is still enough to ensure they are well and truly bent over the table) that would mean that the Imperium has only 15,000 ships in operation. That's a single ship for every 67 Imperial worlds or so. Even without looking at the BFG numbers we can clearly see that's not the case.

**Kaldor**

Hazardous Harry wrote:Look at the Apocalypse Class Battleship, now at your Battlebarge, now back to the Apocalypse. Sadly, your Battlebarge isn't the Apocalypse, but it could dish out a jaw-dropping amount of firepower like the Apocalypse if it stopped using its meagre batteries and bombardments and started using ship-killing lances like the Apocalypse.

I'm firing a Nova Cannon.

Points for humour, but in no way does a S6 lance battery (at only 30cm range) compare to a S12 Weapons Battery and S8 Bombardment cannon. Hell, it doesn't even compare to the firepower a Retribution can put out.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Says who? Where are your figures?

Have you even been reading this thread? Each chapter, depending on their respective wealth and whether or not they a fleet-based, will have numbers of about 1-5 Battlebarges. So let's say about 3. That's 3000 Battlebarges in operation throughout the Imperium. If you were correct in saying they'd only be outnumbered 5 to 1 (which is still enough to ensure they are well and truly bent over the table) that would mean that the Imperium has only 15,000 ships in operation. That's a single ship for every 67 Imperial worlds or so. Even without looking at the BFG numbers we can clearly see that's not the case.

I have been reading the thread, and your numbers are a little off. While I'm happy to assume 3 Battlebarges per chapter, you need to remember that each chapter also has a few Strike Cruisers and escorts. I'd put the figure at around a dozen ships per chapter.

As for the Imperium, the closest we've been able to come to any numbers are:

a sector fleet is actually 200 ships. That gives us roughly 13,000 ships per segmentum, and 70,000 ships for the Imperial Navy to play with.

Now, this is only ball-park figures in the very loosest sense. Taking the standard galactic map, and using the distance between Earth and the Galactic Centre as a frame of reference, and assuming that each sector is about 200 light years cubed, we can work out that there should be about 135 sectors in the Segmentum Tempestus.

However, the Imperium of Man does not control all space. Large swathes of space are unexplored or occupied by enemy forces.

I think it is fair to say that only 50% of space within a segmentum is actually occupied by an Imperial Sector. If any numbers are going to be contentious, it's this one.

IF we assume around 65 sectors for Segementum Tempestus, at 200 ships per sector, we have 13,000 for the entire Segmentum, and if we assume that each Segmentum is comparable to the other we get 65,000 ships for the entire Navy.

**Hazardous Harry**

Kaldor wrote:
Hazardous Harry wrote:Look at the Apocalypse Class Battleship, now at your Battlebarge, now back to the Apocalypse. Sadly, your Battlebarge isn't the Apocalypse, but it could dish out a jaw-dropping amount of firepower like the Apocalypse if it stopped using its meagre batteries and bombardments and started using ship-killing lances like the Apocalypse.

I'm firing a Nova Cannon.

Points for humour, but in no way does a S6 lance battery (at only 30cm range) compare to a S12 Weapons Battery and S8 Bombardment cannon. Hell, it doesn't even compare to the firepower a Retribution can put out.

As I play BFG, I can tell you that you will never get the full S12 battery, unless you are shooting at stations. At most it will get 8 shots, if the IN is closing, in which case it's targeting the area with the strongest possible armour. The Apocalypse on the other hand will always get those lance shots, and they'll be completely unpenalised. Even without looking at the massive advantage of a Nova Cannon, almost any BFG player will tell you that (against anything but Eldar) lances are what really kill ships.

Also, good to see you aren't humourless.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Says who? Where are your figures?

Have you even been reading this thread? Each chapter, depending on their respective wealth and whether or not they a fleet-based, will have numbers of about 1-5 Battlebarges. So let's say about 3. That's 3000 Battlebarges in operation throughout the Imperium. If you were correct in saying they'd only be outnumbered 5 to 1 (which is still enough to ensure they are well and truly bent over the table) that would mean that the Imperium has only 15,000 ships in operation. That's a single ship for every 67 Imperial worlds or so. Even without looking at the BFG numbers we can clearly see that's not the case.

I have been reading the thread, and your numbers are a little off. While I'm happy to assume 3 Battlebarges per chapter, you need to remember that each chapter also has a few Strike Cruisers and escorts. I'd put the figure at around a dozen ships per chapter.

As for the Imperium, the closest we've been able to come to any numbers are:

a sector fleet is actually 200 ships. That gives us roughly 13,000 ships per segmentum, and 70,000 ships for the Imperial Navy to play with.

Now, this is only ball-park figures in the very loosest sense. Taking the standard galactic map, and using the distance between Earth and the Galactic Centre as a frame of reference, and assuming that each sector is about 200 light years cubed, we can work out that there should be about 135 sectors in the Segmentum Tempestus.

However, the Imperium of Man does not control all space. Large swathes of space are unexplored or occupied by enemy forces.

I think it is fair to say that only 50% of space within a segmentum is actually occupied by an Imperial Sector. If any numbers are going to be contentious, it's this one.

IF we assume around 65 sectors for Segementum Tempestus, at 200 ships per sector, we have 13,000 for the entire Segmentum, and if we assume that each Segmentum is comparable to the other we get 65,000 ships for the entire Navy.

I was under the impression we were restricting this to cruisers and above, as the amount of escorts the Imperial Navy has constantly spread throughout the Imperium on (you guessed it) escort duties, is likely a lot bigger than the figure given here.