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BrotherHaraldus wrote:Don't use Space marine the game for reference.

It's just as much marinewank as most BL books, so I see no problem if we're going to use marinewank as a source.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:basic guardsmen have literally no chance to take down a Marine alone

For one, you've never really "proved" anything, but disregarding that, yes, they do. See plasmaguns, meltaguns, or other special and heavy weapons-- things the IG uses in abundance. In fact, BL books have depicted poisoned crossbows killing marines, nevermind deadly weapons of futuristic warfare.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Also, IG are more susceptible to command structure damage than you think. They are trained to rely only on orders.

Not as much as you think they are. The Guard certainly loves commanders that use their initiative to achieve victory, even if said commanders aren't generals or above.

The victorious have a strong argument in support of their actions in the Imperium's eyes.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Don't use Space marine the game for reference.

True, just don't, 3 space marines takes out over a thousand orks... Captain or not, that is waaaaaaaaaaay too much (oh and many nobz too, as well as countless Chaos marines and psykers)

BrotherHaraldus wrote:basic guardsmen have literally no chance to take down a Marine alone[/quote
Gaunt series again (only IG focused book series I,ve read). Gaunt takes down, with a power sword a Chaos Space marine. Again, gaunt is said to be an excellent swordman, but I can't think that he is the only Guardmen that excell with a sword. Also, rules or not, Space marines are afraid of melta and plasma fire as it can go right trough their armor (salamander book, cultist killed a Captain that way in the beginning)

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Also, IG are more susceptible to command structure damage than you think. They are trained to rely only on orders.

See gaunts ghost first book. Two regiments (tanith and dragoons) are cut fromt eh main force. Gaunt and his colonel are not even able to communicate, nor is Rawne (major) and the volpone. They just continue pushing trying to do damage until they manage to regroup witht he others. Whent hat is done, still without The lord general orders, they go and attack the earthShaker like arttilery of the chaos forces. The tanith are a pretty good regiment, true, but I would say that most IG regiments are actually good like them in their specific fields with officers taht arent incompent.

Serder makes me think of the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer, which orders guardsmen that, if their commanders are killed or if they're stuck behind enemy lines, that they need to try to cause as much damage as possible before they die.

The problem with Space Marines is that the distinctions and improvement from the incredible lengths the imperium goes to support them aren't significant enough. The techonological advantage to having millenium old technology isn't significant enough.

A little perspective on numbers... even if each and every IG company had only a single plasmagun, there would still be more plasmaguns than astartes pattern bolters in the galaxy.

Given all the resources put into space marines by the Imperium, providing every last one of them with a special or heavy weapon, or in the least the more specialized sternguard ammo would not just make sense but given the expended resources to produce a marine would be within the realm of practicality for even the most screwed up bureaucracy... since it'd be easier than providing a unique pattern of bolter. For all the fluff of the space marines the Bolter is a bit of a handicap. On the otherside of this view, is the other perspective that given the rarity established in fluff, IG should have alot fewer special and heavy weapons in their army.

Things like grenade launcher,s meltaguns, missile launchers, lascannons, sniper rifles, etc are definitely not rare.

That's my point exactly... by the numbers with only 1,000,000 Astartes boltgun in the universe they are rarer than any of those weapons and by virtue of that fact it should be easier to arm space marines exclusively with

Melissia wrote:Things like grenade launcher,s meltaguns, missile launchers, lascannons, sniper rifles....

Fezman wrote:Fluffwise, I think the Guard aren't viewed with as much awe as the Space Marines because the Space Marines are pretty rare and distant, and presumably have a lot of tales told about them, so they take on a near-mythic status. Maybe the Guard are seen as too commonplace and too much a part of daily life, to be particularly remarkable.

Not necessarily true. In the perspective of just how big the Imperium of Man is, think of the absolutely tiny fraction of humanity the Space Marines take up. There are planets out there where the knowledge of Space Marines is on a scale from bedtime fairy-tales to 'what's a Space Marine?' The Guard hold parades and ceremonies. Space Marines might make an appearance in a victory parade, but that's so rare that only a handful of the civilian population of the human race ever get to see one.

And my two-cents, people seem to think that the Guard are under-equipped kamikaze troops compared to the Space Marines. Fluffwise, they're the true champions of the Imperium, not the Space Marines.

Melissia wrote:

BrotherHaraldus wrote:basic guardsmen have literally no chance to take down a Marine alone

In fact, BL books have depicted poisoned crossbows killing marines, nevermind deadly weapons of futuristic warfare.

To be fair, it was at least a dozen poisoned crossbow bolts to the face and several more between armour plates that brought the chaos marine down.

shrike wrote:

Melissia wrote:

BrotherHaraldus wrote:basic guardsmen have literally no chance to take down a Marine alone

In fact, BL books have depicted poisoned crossbows killing marines, nevermind deadly weapons of futuristic warfare.

To be fair, it was at least a dozen poisoned crossbow bolts to the face and several more between armour plates that brought the chaos marine down.

but the guardsmen outnumber the SMs way more than 12 to one.

Ratbarf wrote:The largest most powerful army in the world would stop giving organised resistance if you killed everyone above the rank of Colonel. Did you pacify the area that that army was defending? Hell no, what you did do is remove it's ability to fight as a coherent force, the only thing left to do if you want to pacify it is mop up...

...I think the Space Marines would win, I feel they would kill the important people, and then leave the now leaderless armies to wither on the vine. Occasionally coming back and pruning every so often when it seems they've found a new leader.

Fair enough, that's your opinion. Myself, I'm of the opposite opinion. The reason why Astartes are so good at what they do is because the enemy do not expect a small strike force to land in a pod, deploy, complete their objective & withdraw. The Imperial Guard, however, knows how the Astartes deploy into battle as they have to work & co-ordinate with them so the surprise element the Astartes would normally enjoy is lost, especially as the commanding officers will be in the midst of an army, most likely with their own personal guard of the hardest & toughest that the Guard can throw up - imagine all the nasties they'll have; plasma weapons, melta weapons, hellguns, maybe even a looted power weapon. They might even carry more exotic weapons such as bolters or xenos technology. All of these weapons would be in the hands of men & women who have seen more than their fair share of combat and then some. Next we'll imagine the commander is in some form of fortification - maybe a command bunker or garrisoned building - the Astartes can't just land their pod in the middle of a bunker or building - on a bunker they'd be in plain view for all the Guardsmen around to shoot at them, or plummeting through a building could bring the whole structure down on the Marines as they disembark - they're not immune to several tons of plasteel falling from 5/6 levels up.

So they could teleport in. Ah, but here's the nub with that. Only those in Tactical Dreadnaught can teleport in & be able to react immediately. Those in Power Armour have to wait for their suits to reboot - the systems shut down during teleportation because of the massive amount of energy that surges over the Astartes to transport them instantaneously. So the Astartes appear, in their power armour, inside the bunker and the Guard commander legs it, leaving the Astartes, once their Power Armour has 'rebooted' to fight their way through the labyrinth confines of corridors, dealing with all the nasty surprises the Guard can set as they retreat - bunker corridors are never straight to create problems for attackers - allow for placement of traps, explosives, mines - stuff to make the Astartes lives hell.

I'm not saying it would be impossible to take out the commanders, just a lot harder than people are making it out to be. It's not so easy as just waltzing in, doing the job with nobody interfering at all and then getting out without a problem.

As for the result of taking out the commanders? With some Guard armies that just won't do much. Be a little bit of confusion, short lived, but they'll recover quickly as the next man in line steps up, but on a ground-level the officers & Guardsmen know what to do. Take the Death Korp, for example. All of the officers, literally all, come up from the ranks. To survive in the Death Korp that long they become pretty good at what they do. On top of that competance is the psychology of the Death Korp. Like the Astartes they know no fear. To die is to help repay the blood debt owed for their planets transgressions in m40 and as such they willingly go to their deaths and will hold on and fight back no matter how dire the situation. Death Korp are also starting to become a significant part of the Guard, in terms of how many regiments they raise each year as a tithe (as many as the Administratum & Departmento Munitorum will allow*) for just one planet, let alone compared to the tithe of many whole sectors!

The big achilles heel of the Astartes is a massive weakness - they do not have the numbers for prolonged warfare, nor can they replace losses quickly. The Astartes could wipe out an entire Guard army but the cost would be enormous for them. For each Guardsman they kill, hundreds more humans will be inducted into the Guard. Where a Guard regiment is destroyed, many, many more will be raised. It's a war the Astartes could never hope to win. The Guard could take over the Astartes homeworlds, their recruiting worlds & cut the Astartes off from their limited sources of recruits without ever worrying about being stretched thin. For every time the Astartes attack the Guard they will lose battle-brothers. The mass of combat experience & knowledge lost with each death would not be easy or quick to replace. In the end they would just wither away and be of no use to anyone.

*Which, considering that Krieg churns out nothing but fearless Korpsmen, is rather impressive. They're the only known case of the Adeptus Mechanicus & BIologicus allowing the use of the vitae-womb to accelerate the birth-rate - it's never been set in stone what this is but it allows Krieg to essentially create millions of Krieg humans that can be raised & turned into fearless soldiers. There is an edict from Terra which basically says if Krieg needs it to produce soldiers, Krieg gets it, no obstructions or questions asked.

Serder wrote:

shrike wrote:

Melissia wrote:

BrotherHaraldus wrote:basic guardsmen have literally no chance to take down a Marine alone

In fact, BL books have depicted poisoned crossbows killing marines, nevermind deadly weapons of futuristic warfare.

To be fair, it was at least a dozen poisoned crossbow bolts to the face and several more between armour plates that brought the chaos marine down.

but the guardsmen outnumber the SMs way more than 12 to one.

actually, it was about 40 nihtgane (sp?) and 12 guardsmen against 5 chaos IIRC, which is around 12 to one.

my point was not that the marines were weak being taken out by guard, but that they were stronger than mel made them out to be.

Kaldor wrote:

Thats not the point of Astartes. If there were fifty Lord Generals operating in an area, they'd teleport into 49 of their HQ bunkers, then teleport out and ask the last guy if he'd like to surrender now.

That's assuming they know where said bunkers are (it seems like most of the time the Marines show up they just magically know the exact positions of the enemy commanders and the entire enemy order of battle without any sort of intelligence apparatus, in real life that's an incredibly rare thing to have even with excellent intelligence) that the anti-orbital defenses, anti-aircraft networks, Imperial Navy, jamming fields, etc aren't any obstacle, and that they're able to teleport with startling precision right on top of the IG commanders.

Does not work that way much of the time. This is a huge part of they Space Marines don't make much sense. They need to enact exactly these sorts of missions, which many people just sort of handwave "well of course they just teleport in and decapitate the enemy command structure!".

That's requires an insane amount of information and intelligence, not to mention perfect coordination and timing, and relies on an enemy having pretty much no way to interfere with said deployment. In the case of most SM fluff, these things are pretty much all just ignored entirely. The SM's show up, instantly know exactly where their enemies are and their weakspots, and face no significant obstacles to simply showing up in the middle of their likely most fortified locations and producing magnificent victory.

The Navy would crush the Astartes in space, but if they didn't there would be nothing the IG could do to stop the Astartes, despite their overwhelming military advantages.

Again, only assuming the above things are true. If they can't magically strike at command centers, and if such actions don't produce immediate command breakdown, the marines don't win. Given how many stories we have of SM's simply acting as heavy infantry and assaulting enemy positions from the front, storming hive cities, and the like, we know they can't always do this. If the Astartes would have to fight even a handful battles like that on Vraks, where orbital assault was impossible and in fact no Space Marines at the outset would even attempt to retake Vraks (and in fact a third of the Dark Angels chapter died on the world and they were engaged nowhere near the main battle lines for a very brief period of time), a fairly ho-hum Munitorum storage world, they'd be annihilated while the IG wouldn't even notice the ammunition expenditure.

It hasn't been covered but I'd say its a safe assumption that marine scanners/sensors are more sophisticated than those of the standard Imperial Navy ship. That doesn't solve all the issues, but it'd help.

In a realistic setting Marines would rarely participate in large scale warfare without outside assistance.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:
The Imperial Guard, however, knows how the Astartes deploy into battle as they have to work & co-ordinate with them so the surprise element the Astartes would normally enjoy is lost....

This is the only part of your assessment I disagree with. Some Imperial Guard commanders who had experiance fighting alongside Space Marines would know, but not all. Space marines have an ethos of being angelic, partially because normal humans don't know all that much about them. I have no doubt the Imperial Guard might have written accounts of the basics of how Space Marines operate, but with the paranoid nature of the Imperiums bureaucracy how widely is that information going to be distributed?-Not widely at all.

My additional assessment of the Space Marines is that they would be far more mobile than most any IG army as Space Marines unlike IG would be able to fly in on transports carrying armored ground vehicles... while the ability to fly equipment in and out reduces significantly supply lines. SM's greatest strength is their flexibility... they can use drop pods, fly in on Thunderhawks or jump out with jump packs, sneak in scouts, or teleport... meanwhile IG don't have drop pods and can't teleport, most don't even have the likes of Valkyries, most formations are too combersome to have dedicated scouts.

shrike wrote:my point was not that the marines were weak being taken out by guard, but that they were stronger than mel made them out to be.

No they weren't.

You're overreacting thinking I'm saying Marines are weak.

Marines taking a crossbow bolt to the brain are about as likely to die as humans taking one to the brain, there's really nothing in the Marine biology that makes their brain physically tougher than a human's.

And lasguns are far, far better than crossbow bolts. Power armor mitigates this quite a bit, I think we all agree, but nowhere near entirely-- there's always weak spots, and sometimes the armor is simply so stressed out that it cannot properly protect the marine (for example, if it's already taken a lot of hits to begin with).

Marines are stronger and tougher than humans (but not smarter or more agile, that's just non-fluffy fanwank-- there is nothing unique to Astartes that makes them smarter or more agile than humans), but that only goes so far. Orks are tougher than Space Marines and the Imperial Guard deals with them all the time. It's the power armor that does the greatest good for Space Marines outside of hand to hand combat, which is why Sisters of Battle, with their own power armor, are able to accomplish feats almost on par with the Astartes.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:
My additional assessment of the Space Marines is that they would be far more mobile than most any IG army as Space Marines unlike IG would be able to fly in on transports carrying armored ground vehicles... while the ability to fly equipment in and out reduces significantly supply lines. SM's greatest strength is their flexibility... they can use drop pods, fly in on Thunderhawks or jump out with jump packs, sneak in scouts, or teleport... meanwhile IG don't have drop pods and can't teleport, most don't even have the likes of Valkyries, most formations are too combersome to have dedicated scouts.

You're omitting lots about the Guard:

1) The Guard have transport aircraft for their armored ground vehicles - the Valkyrie Sky Talon.
2) The Guard can certainly fly in supplies.
3) The IG can drop from orbit too, in Valkyries.
4) The Guard can fly in on Valkyries.
5) The Guard can sneak in entire light-infantry regiments.
6) Granted, the Guard cannot teleport.
7) The IG don't need drop-pods, they use Valkyries.
8) You're right, they can't teleport. But I contest the advantage this provides.
9) To assert that Valkyries are rare is flawed - there are more Valkyries in the Imperium than there are Space Marines.
10) The entirety of some of those "cumbersome formations" ARE scouts. See any light infantry regiment ever.

Now for my assertions against the Space Marines:
1) Outnumbered on a scale not seen ever period.
2) Outgunned on a scale not seen ever period.
3) Maneuvering capabilities are roughly equal, with a slight advantage to the Guard just because their physical existence can cover more ground than the Marines'.
4) Entire regiments of armored vehicles which are superior to their outnumbered Marine counterparts.
5) Actual artillery support (lol Whirlwind).
6) Actual naval support (Marauder bombers).
7) Actual superheavies. While the regular IG tanks outgun and outnumber their Marine counterparts, this just gets hilarious.

aka_mythos wrote:This is the only part of your assessment I disagree with. Some Imperial Guard commanders who had experiance fighting alongside Space Marines would know, but not all. Space marines have an ethos of being angelic, partially because normal humans don't know all that much about them. I have no doubt the Imperial Guard might have written accounts of the basics of how Space Marines operate, but with the paranoid nature of the Imperiums bureaucracy how widely is that information going to be distributed?-Not widely at all.

I take your point there, but humans learn very quickly. Do something once and we'll know to expect that possibility in the future. That's a massive dink in the Astartes flexbility, their massive surprise element gone. Plus humans do know that these 'angelic' beings descend from skies like fireballs from the heaven, striking down into the ground like meterorites to bring death to the Emperor's foes... actually on that basis alone I would expect humans to expect them to do that.

My additional assessment of the Space Marines is that they would be far more mobile than most any IG army as Space Marines unlike IG would be able to fly in on transports carrying armored ground vehicles... while the ability to fly equipment in and out reduces significantly supply lines. SM's greatest strength is their flexibility... they can use drop pods, fly in on Thunderhawks or jump out with jump packs, sneak in scouts, or teleport... meanwhile IG don't have drop pods and can't teleport, most don't even have the likes of Valkyries, most formations are too combersome to have dedicated scouts.

Of course the Guard have dedicated scouts - reconnaissance companies/battalions/regiments & light infantry, sentinels, salamanders, just for a couple of examples. You can't blunder around with an army or large formation without some dedicated feelers out to find the enemy, otherwise you're just setting yourself up for defeat and the Tactica Imperium no doubt has whole sections given over to scouting & use of reconnaissance/intelligence gathering units (the Uplifting Primer has a whole bit on scouting, so if Guardsmen have something to tell them about it, almost all Tactica Imperium tomes -must- do as it's one of the most basic elements of soldiering). Plus there are the flyers of the Imperial Navy - planes have been used in our timeline to gather intelligence & perform reconnaissance roles since 1914, a scant 10 years after the first flight! Balloons were being used for that role back in the 1860s, no earlier, mid-late c18. The Guard will have many, many elements given over to finding where the enemy is, their strength & the lay of the land for the Guards advantage for battle.

There are many Guard units out there which could be considered to be very flexible in their approach to warfare. Airborne Guard regiments, as a quick example, or rough rider regiments. They can manouver quickly & effectively to gain the upper hand through mobility. Armoured/mechanised regiments can do much the same. The problem the Astartes have is that once they're on the ground their Thunderhawks are one of their very few lifelines. The Guard will have it's logistics working smoothly, with food, ammunition & equipment, hopefully, readily available. Their supply lines will extend or contract depending on the strategic situation & will be very well guarded. The Astartes do not have that luxury. They can digest almost any foodstuff, true, but their weapons do not have unlimited ammunition, nor can they replace their losses easily/have many reinforcements to call in. If their Thunderhawks are shot down by, for example, Lightning fighters or Hydra flak platforms, the Astartes will frankly be stranded. Their mobility is mostly lost, their supply lines cut and an incredibly important Astartes vehicle has been lost that can not be easily replaced. Yes the Astartes will have ways of fighting on, they will be stuck, unless they can be teleported out.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Sparks_Havelock wrote:
My additional assessment of the Space Marines ....

First if you're going to quote me, fix your citation.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
You're omitting lots about the Guard:

1) The Guard have transport aircraft for their armored ground vehicles - the Valkyrie Sky Talon.
2) The Guard can certainly fly in supplies.
3) The IG can drop from orbit too, in Valkyries.
4) The Guard can fly in on Valkyries.
5) The Guard can sneak in entire light-infantry regiments.
6) Granted, the Guard cannot teleport.
7) The IG don't need drop-pods, they use Valkyries.
8) You're right, they can't teleport. But I contest the advantage this provides.
9) To assert that Valkyries are rare is flawed - there are more Valkyries in the Imperium than there are Space Marines.
10) The entirety of some of those "cumbersome formations" ARE scouts. See any light infantry regiment ever.

Well I think you're confusing things... my point was that any Space Marine chapter can do all of those things, and that the flexibility of being a swiss army knife is their advantage.

Addressing 1-4, 7, 9) As I stated SM would be more mobile than "MOST" Imperial Guard, since very few Imperial Guard have permenant access to Valkyries and by extension Sky Talons, this is what make the Elysian Guard next to unique. The Imperial Navy is a different issue since Valkyries are piloted and operated by the Imperial Navy on assignment to an Imperial Guard unit. If we want to bring the Imperial Navy into the mix most SM are blasted before they even get near enough to a planet to make planet fall; so that bits moot.

Addressing 5, 10)... Any space marine chapter can choose to sneak in scouts, but not all Imperial Guard regiments can. Imperial Guard regiments are a jigsaw puzzle of specialized formation that an Imperial General can slap together to get a diverse force capable of doing a variaty of things, but not all elements are capable of every task. Any space marine given their training could theoretically don scout armor and act as a scout. That can't be said of every guardsmen.

Addressing 7)... Ignoring the previously stated issues with reliance on Valkyries... the advantage of a drop pod over a Valkyrie is that a Valkyrie though VTOL requires an aerdynamically constrained atmospheric entry while a drop pod is a guided balistic drop. Valkyries even with their guidance would be limited much more drastically by the location of their launching ship in entering the atmosphere and the course they take would be limited by atmospheric entry. If space marines want that type of entry they have the additional option of Thunderhawks and in some case craft similar to the Stormraven.

Addressing 6,8) I think teleporting, the ability to completely ignores lines of defense is by far their greatest advantage. It means, if I have good enough coordinates, it doesn't matter how many guns are between point "A" and point "B".

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Now for my assertions against the Space Marines:
1) Outnumbered on a scale not seen ever period.
2) Outgunned on a scale not seen ever period.
3) Maneuvering capabilities are roughly equal, with a slight advantage to the Guard just because their physical existence can cover more ground than the Marines'.
4) Entire regiments of armored vehicles which are superior to their outnumbered Marine counterparts.
5) Actual artillery support (lol Whirlwind).
6) Actual naval support (Marauder bombers).
7) Actual superheavies. While the regular IG tanks outgun and outnumber their Marine counterparts, this just gets hilarious.

I don't deny it. SM would be realistically limited. I'm arguing both sides, simply saying they have an advantage that makes them a very specialized force, incapable of large scale warfare but still significantly capable of exacting extreme damage on an enemy. I'm thinking Power Armored Navy Seal on steroids.

Melissia wrote:
Marines are stronger and tougher than humans (but not smarter or more agile, that's just non-fluffy fanwank-- there is nothing unique to Astartes that makes them smarter or more agile than humans), but that only goes so far. Orks are tougher than Space Marines and the Imperial Guard deals with them all the time. It's the power armor that does the greatest good for Space Marines outside of hand to hand combat, which is why Sisters of Battle, with their own power armor, are able to accomplish feats almost on par with the Astartes.

I'm not saying this makes them smarter, but space marines, will tend to have had more training and experiance and their ability to live nearly indefinitely means a marine veterans might have seen 2 or 3 times what an IG veteran saw in a life time of fighting.

I tend not to believe Sisters of Battle having accomplished as much... rather at least not in the same way. You have to ignore a lot of distinctions to come to a 1-1 comparison and even then aren't the SoB even less common than marines?

aka_mythos wrote:
Well I think you're confusing things... my point was that any Space Marine chapter can do all of those things, and that the flexibility of being a swiss army knife is their advantage.

Addressing 1-4, 7, 9) As I stated SM would be more mobile than "MOST" Imperial Guard, since very few Imperial Guard have permenant access to Valkyries and by extension Sky Talons, this is what make the Elysian Guard next to unique. The Imperial Navy is a different issue since Valkyries are piloted and operated by the Imperial Navy on assignment to an Imperial Guard unit. If we want to bring the Imperial Navy into the mix most SM are blasted before they even get near enough to a planet to make planet fall; so that bits moot.

Addressing 5, 10)... Any space marine chapter can choose to sneak in scouts, but not all Imperial Guard regiments can. Imperial Guard regiments are a jigsaw puzzle of specialized formation that an Imperial General can slap together to get a diverse force capable of doing a variaty of things, but not all elements are capable of every task. Any space marine given their training could theoretically don scout armor and act as a scout. That can't be said of every guardsmen.

Addressing 7)... Ignoring the previously stated issues with reliance on Valkyries... the advantage of a drop pod over a Valkyrie is that a Valkyrie though VTOL requires an aerdynamically constrained atmospheric entry while a drop pod is a guided balistic drop. Valkyries even with their guidance would be limited much more drastically by the location of their launching ship in entering the atmosphere and the course they take would be limited by atmospheric entry. If space marines want that type of entry they have the additional option of Thunderhawks and in some case craft similar to the Stormraven.

Addressing 6,8) I think teleporting, the ability to completely ignores lines of defense is by far their greatest advantage. It means, if I have good enough coordinates, it doesn't matter how many guns are between point "A" and point "B".

And now for my *deft* counter:

Flexibility isn't always good. The phrase "jack of all trades and master of none" comes to mind. For example, Marine tanks are more flexible as to what formation they take than the Leman Russ. Unfortunately, this means that they have to be constructed in a way so that a primarily infantry-led force can maintain them. This means they have a lighter chassis, which necessitates lighter armor and a lighter gun. The Leman Russ, while less flexible in its ginormous armored regiments, is on a heavy chassis with much more armor and firepower.

1-4,7,9) Provided that this is supposedly all the guard ever in one place, I think that any assigned-directly-to-regiment Naval assets will probably come along. This doesn't mean that the entire Imperial Navy comes along, though. The reason I say this is that many regiments would be crippled without the support of those aircraft, which is why the aircraft are put at the disposal of the ground forces.

5,10) You're right, but fortunately this is all the regiments in one place under a centralized command. No doubt the scout regiments will be doing their thing within the greater framework of the army. Which means that, while a Volpone Blueblood heavy-infantry regiment may not be able to scout, they will certainly be given attached resources who can.

7) In this case, you're right, the drop pod is marginally superior. I would contest, though, that the sheer number of available deployment aircraft available to the Guard would compensate. Additionally, the Valkyrie can take off and move troops to somewhere else - when Marines drop in with a pod, more marine forces would have to be committed to extract them. So drop-pod deployment isn't always good, either.

aka_mythos wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Now for my assertions against the Space Marines:
1) Outnumbered on a scale not seen ever period.
2) Outgunned on a scale not seen ever period.
3) Maneuvering capabilities are roughly equal, with a slight advantage to the Guard just because their physical existence can cover more ground than the Marines'.
4) Entire regiments of armored vehicles which are superior to their outnumbered Marine counterparts.
5) Actual artillery support (lol Whirlwind).
6) Actual naval support (Marauder bombers).
7) Actual superheavies. While the regular IG tanks outgun and outnumber their Marine counterparts, this just gets hilarious.

I don't deny it. SM would be realistically limited. I'm arguing both sides, simply saying they have an advantage that makes them a very specialized force, incapable of large scale warfare but still significantly capable of exacting extreme damage on an enemy. I'm thinking Power Armored Navy Seal on steroids.

A Power Armored Navy Seal is no match for a Main Battle Tank. And in this engagement, the Main Battle Tanks by themselves outnumber the Power Armored Navy Seals.

aka_mythos wrote:

Melissia wrote:
Marines are stronger and tougher than humans (but not smarter or more agile, that's just non-fluffy fanwank-- there is nothing unique to Astartes that makes them smarter or more agile than humans), but that only goes so far. Orks are tougher than Space Marines and the Imperial Guard deals with them all the time. It's the power armor that does the greatest good for Space Marines outside of hand to hand combat, which is why Sisters of Battle, with their own power armor, are able to accomplish feats almost on par with the Astartes.

I'm not saying this makes them smarter, but space marines, will tend to have had more training and experiance and their ability to live nearly indefinitely means a marine veterans might have seen 2 or 3 times what an IG veteran saw in a life time of fighting.

I tend not to believe Sisters of Battle having accomplished as much... rather at least not in the same way. You have to ignore a lot of distinctions to come to a 1-1 comparison and even then aren't the SoB even less common than marines?

Unfortunately, the majority of this "experience" comes from fighting Xenos, Heretics, and Daemons. None of these threats are as nearly as powerful or well-organized and equipped as the Imperial Guard.

Heretics are often made of PDF forces that got corrupted and have things like predator tanks and other IG equipment(1st example is the SW first omnibus). Heretics are the number one foe of the IoM IMHO. So a lot of Sm chapters do have experience versus IG like forces. Other example are the blood pact or Sons of Seth from the gaunt ghost series, I'm pretty sure the SMs are fighting them too in the crusade since Macaroth does have SM chapters under his command for the crusade.

Also, something that we all seem to have forgotten, SMs jump infantry could do real damage vs IGs gun line. Melta bombs would blow up their tanks and a Space amrines falling right into the guard infantry would spread confusion and broke their morale while the rest of the SMs charge on foot/in tanks.

Serder wrote:Heretics are often made of PDF forces that got corrupted and have things like predator tanks and other IG equipment(1st example is the SW first omnibus). Heretics are the number one foe of the IoM IMHO. So a lot of Sm chapters do have experience versus IG like forces. Other example are the blood pact or Sons of Seth from the gaunt ghost series, I'm pretty sure the SMs are fighting them too in the crusade since Macaroth does have SM chapters under his command for the crusade.

Also, something that we all seem to have forgotten, SMs jump infantry could do real damage vs IGs gun line. Melta bombs would blow up their tanks and a Space amrines falling right into the guard infantry would spread confusion and broke their morale while the rest of the SMs charge on foot/in tanks.

PDFs are nowhere near the capabilities of the Imperial Guard. It's like comparing a local militia to the United States Army. Everyone you've listed are not even close - Blood Pact get murdered by light-infantry guard (Tanith) while themselves being heavy infantry. So do the Sons of Seth.

If the Guard can murder them easily, they are not on par with Guard.

SM Jump Infantry won't live to make it to the gun line if you believe the fluff. Against dropping from space, an Imperial Air Defense Regiment (2nd Brimlock Sky Wardens) opposed a drop and achieved a Kill Ratio of 99,999 to 1. Hardly losses the Space Marines can afford. There are thousands (if not millions) of these regiments in the Imperial Guard.

As far as the ground units go, good luck charging an Imperial gunline with Rhinos and Razorbacks, and even Land Raiders. (It is likely that there are fewer Land Raiders than their are entire companies of Leman Russes).

Unit1126PLL wrote:As far as the ground units go, good luck charging an Imperial gunline with Rhinos and Razorbacks, and even Land Raiders. (It is likely that there are fewer Land Raiders than their are entire battalions of Leman Russes).

Fixed.

Let's face it, one million space marines quite simply could not defeat the uncounted trillions of guardsmen, their billions of tanks and artillery pieces,a nd their millions of superheavy tanks.

Melissia wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:As far as the ground units go, good luck charging an Imperial gunline with Rhinos and Razorbacks, and even Land Raiders. (It is likely that there are fewer Land Raiders than their are entire battalions of Leman Russes).

Fixed.

In all honesty, it's likely there are several hundred if not several thousand Armored Regiments for every single Land Raider. Given that there are "billions" of IG regiments, even if just 1% of those are armored regiments, that means there are millions of armored regiments, each composed of several hundred Leman Russ tanks. Given that Land Raiders are rare machines even amongst the Astartes, we can probably consider it safe to say that even if 10,000 Land raiders existed, lets say a rather * very* generous 10 Land Raiders per Chapter, they'd still be facing hundreds of Leman Russ tanks each.

Not including of course Hellhounds+variants, artillery vehicles like Basilisks, Chimeras, Hydra Flak tanks, etc. For every vehicle the Astartes fields they're likely facing several thousand IFV's,artillery units,battle tanks, medium tanks, etc from the Imperial Guard, most of which can sport heavier armor and heavier guns than their equivalent Space Marine counterparts.

Let's face it, one million space marines quite simply could not defeat the uncounted trillions of guardsmen, their billions of tanks and artillery pieces,a nd their millions of superheavy tanks.

They wouldn't even register And that's sorta the problem with the setting. GW has created far too large a gulf in their numbers.

When there is several million guardsmen for each and every Space Marine, their importance and purpose rapidly becomes questionable and their existence becomes irrelevant when scrutinized.

The size of the IG makes sense given the stated size of the Imperium, in fact if anything it may be relatively under-mobilized even relative to modern day earth, much less a total-war galactic theocracy. It's the size of the Adeptus Astartes that really need to be bumped up to make any sort of sense.

Yes, the SM are stretched far and thin and "There are less than one space marine per world" - AoBR starter booklet

And the Sisters numbers make even less sense, especially if GW is trying to go with the "light power armor" bullgak (which you would think would let them field Sisters in numbers GREATER than that of the Marines, not arguably less)..

Hammer of the Emperor vs. The Surgical Blades of the Emperor.

Rock Vs. Scissors.

Hmmm.

Ratbarf wrote:Oh man, laughed soo hard.

What I think a lot of people are missing here however is the different styles of warfare that the Guard and Space Marines use. Space Marines are much more, "We're going to outflank your entire army/insert a bunch of strike teams, and proceed to kill all of your officers from the rank of General up." When Space Marines fight against human non astartes armies they go for the head of the snake. The largest most powerful army in the world would stop giving organised resistance if you killed everyone above the rank of Colonel. Did you pacify the area that that army was defending? Hell no, what you did do is remove it's ability to fight as a coherent force, the only thing left to do if you want to pacify it is mop up.

The Guard on the other hand is more conventional military, "We might attempt to take out all of your leaders at once, but at the same time we're going to attempt to knock you off the ground you're holding and pacify the entire area."

Actually defeating an army does not take large numbers of troops, pacification on the other hand requires a certain number of troops with regards to the population and area of the place you are attempting to pacify.

I think the Space Marines would win, I feel they would kill the important people, and then leave the now leaderless armies to wither on the vine. Occasionally coming back and pruning every so often when it seems they've found a new leader.

That's nice and all but there are probably more Colonels of the Imperial Guard than there are Marines...
The Imperial Guard have such an advantage in number that it's literally impossible for the Marines to win...

KplKeegan wrote:Rock Vs. Scissors.

More like ice sculpture with a cannon on it, versus fifty people throwing hammers at it.

Melissia wrote:

KplKeegan wrote:Rock Vs. Scissors.

More like ice sculpture with a cannon on it, versus fifty people throwing hammers at it.

But it's literally what the battle would be. Rock versus a Scissor. No matter where the scissor stabs, the rock is still there. No matter the number of strikes, the rock is still there. No matter the cutting edge of the blade or if the metal is made of titanium, the rock is still there.

[wrong threaaaaad]

[no need to incriminate Melissa ]

Wrong thread, Melissa. But I get your point