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thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:

dreadfury101 wrote:We can interpret the SW 2 ways (i dont play them yet, im an IG meat grinder so i dont hold them on pedestal yet) either 1 they are childish drunken bafoons only wanting to do what they want with no understanding of the greater imperial plan OR drunken, burly, Vikings in space with a serious morality complex that demands they stop at no costs to save the innocent. to paraphrase justin timberlake in that new time movie, "its not worth it if even one person has to die"

I would say its more accurate to depict the space wolves attitude (as directed by thier current grand pubah, L.G.) Why do we fight, but if not to save the very people that ARE the imperium?
So in their defence we will stand no matter who be their foe.

And lets see a modern day marine stand by and let his squad mate, who hes fought and bled for, be falsely accused, sentenced, and executed by a U.N big wig.

exactly!

LoneLictor wrote:

First of all, Orks are funny grimdark. They're alien fungus footbal hooligans who go around pillaging the galaxy and slaughtering innocents.

Secondly, "GrimDark Rebranding" isn't a really thing. The game started out grimdark. Hell, 5th edition is currently less grimdark than Rogue Trader. If anything, it's getting less grimdark. [/url]

Oh no no no Lone. I've been enough of a spectator on Warseer, Heresy Online, et al. watching the long time Ork players hash this argument out till the cows come home. Don't really have much of intention of reproducing the same exact arguments - i'll gladly concede...

And that's a bad thing, because grimdarkness is the only thing that makes 40k unique. Pretty much everything else is stolen from Dune, Judge Dredd, Starship Troopers, Michael Moorcock, BattleTech and other stuff. [url=http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/432131.page]Here's a whole thread that lists a bunch of stolen stuff along with assorted Easter Eggs.

...except that part. I remember RT as well Lone, have my battered copy with the ripped front cover sitting underneath my Orks and Ravens.

Grimdarkness as a thematic tone may have existed - but the enforcement mechanism sure as hell did not.

Yes i'm well aware that GW robbed 80s pop culture left and right - it was a means to get people to buy more models after all. Why create intellectual property when you could hitch a ride on things that were already popular?

But, i don't think its too much of an exaggeration that in the "quest for grimdarkness" - much of the humor that characterized previous versions of WH40K gets punted to the side.

And some people do in fact like that humor.

Edit - i mean, let's face it, some of things....



...such as good old Doomrider are never going to see the light of day again.

The USMC will do exactly what the President, their CINC, tells them to do. If the UN were somehow made the ultimate authority of the planet, and had it within their right to exterminate a region of land for whatever reason...

... they'd stand there and watch it happen, because that's their fething job.

I don't think the Space Wolves are "bad guys", but I think you paint them a bit too rosily. Like it was said, they've kept their home planet in a state of perpetual tribalism when they clearly have access to technology to advance their people, and choose not to. This is especially confusing since they have to select their recruits by age 8 or so, so it isn't like the masses of tribals continuing to slaughter each other in some perpetual war are benefiting from the arrangement. The Space Wolves hang out at the Fang, lording over their minions like gods, waiting for their next summons to war.

While you can't really call it "bad", if they believe that preserving the old ways of the people of Fenris enhances the quality of recruits, there is a definite ethical gray area at work.


I'd say if you want to peg "good guys" in the Imperium, you've got the Salamanders and Ultramarines as the most likely candidates. The Salamanders are noted for their ties to humanity and their compassion. The Ultramarines are also noted for their humanity and they've also created and maintained a sizable human empire which is downright utopic compared to the Imperium, which they rule, but also administrate side by side with regular humans.

I don't think space wolves are good or bad guys, but just like most chapters, there are some people who hate normal humans and are "bad guys" and others who would sacrifice themselves for humanity and therefore "the good guys".
Either way, there are definitely other chapters better than the space wolves (salamanders) as well as other chapters worst than space wolves (marines malevolent). This judging is namely how they treat normal humans.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:I'd say if you want to peg "good guys" in the Imperium, you've got the Salamanders and Ultramarines as the most likely candidates. The Salamanders are noted for their ties to humanity and their compassion. The Ultramarines are also noted for their humanity and they've also created and maintained a sizable human empire which is downright utopic compared to the Imperium, which they rule, but also administrate side by side with regular humans.

This. Definitely true.

Its also the reason why the Ultramarines receive the most flak (when you subtract out the riot Matt Ward caused that is) - "vanilla semi-good marines" just doesn't cut the muster with some folks.

Wasn't there a Chapter who stopped chasing down their target to help save some civilians? It was not Salamanders or SW.

Anyway, the point is that the SW are not the only "good" guys. There are more, and also better/more humanitarian chapters running about.

Also, the crimson fists have alot of good guys in it. However, there are also a few jerks in the chapter, but mainly good human liking characters from what Iv'e seen.

In my opinion, 40k is a world with no heroic groups, only heroic individuals, and only in some factions. There are Space Wolves (and Blood Angels, and Grey Knights, yes, and Tau and Eldar) who are stand-up guys, heroic and faithful. There aren't any Orks, Dark Eldar, or Chaos Marines who are heroic, I suppose. But there are no "good guy" factions, just a complicated amalgam of groups, each composed of some heroic, some villainous, and some indifferent individuals. As others have written, this is intentional on the part of the writers, to make a setting with many shades of grey, in which any player can have a fluffy reason to have a game with any other player, regardless of the armies they have chosen. My Blood Angels and your Space Wolves are fighting over some ancient insult, which makes both factions out to be arrogant asshats (which they are) today, but tomorrow my Blood Angels are holding the line against Bob's Orks, who threaten to overrun the Pacifica, the Planet of Nuns and Orphans, killing everything, which makes them pretty heroic (which they also are).

It appears some people in this thread don't know what a death world is
The people who live on Fenris have to live that way because that's how you survive on a death world. The Space Wolves helping anyone or for that matter another fenrisian helping another who can't survive on their own is counter productive. You get soft that way and the planet will kill you.

Anyway I'd say the Space Wolves tie with the Salamanders as the most non dickish chapters.

LoneLictor wrote:If you read "A Thousand Sons" you wouldn't think Space Wolves were good guys. Furthermore, 40k has no faction that is good (though it does have a few good people, usually caught in the crossfire or being used by one faction).

I've just gotten to the Battle of Prospero in that, and it seems to me like the Wolves have been pretty justified, as far as the 40k universe is concerned. Psykers can bring about the destruction of worlds by daemonic infestation and the Wolves are against this of course. Even worse, the Thousand Sons are the embodiment of ambition - not only do they refuse to shackle themselves, they go further than everyone else. They're pretty aggressive in their disagreement with the Thousand Sons, but the Sons are really asking for it because they refuse to stay in line with the Emperor's orders, orders which are for the good of humanity as a whole.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:
not only do they refuse to shackle themselves, they go further than everyone else.

Isn't that exactly what space wolves do.

BaneGuard wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:
not only do they refuse to shackle themselves, they go further than everyone else.

Isn't that exactly what space wolves do.

Spoiler:

The thousand sons were only attacked by the space wolves for warning the emperor of the threat of Horus, though they used normal librarians, as far as I am aware, though these were not allowed at the time.

Yes but the novel states that they wouldn't attack Magnus without orders, they would not have done it without the Emperor or Horus' consent. A Thousand Sons also seems to make it so that the entire legion are psykers, although I had thought only some were (perhaps they're changing the fluff).

The Problem with the reaction of the Space Wolves on this point is, that the only persons, who know about entities in the warp with own thoughts and desires at the moment are the emperor, magnus, horus and maybe some of the other primarchs (I don't know, if I recall the passage from Horus Rising correctly, but Horus only describes the idea of Warpdaemons to Loken after one of his guys was possessed by one and he tolds him not to talk about this at all and you don't know if the Emperor talked to Horus about this before or after Nikaea). That psykers caused the old night is at this point nothing more than a rumor, so there is no reason for such a huge distrust against a brotherlegion and without this distrust and the blood oath of leman russ against magnus i doubt that even the wolves would attack their own brothers just because they were ordered to.

What a lot of people are failing to grasp is that the accepted socialital norms that define who is good and who is bad are radically different between our world and the 40k world. In 40k its perfectly acceptale to burn a planet to the ground to save 10 planets. Those 400000 guardsman that died taking a fortress save 400000000000 peoples lives. Hence the medal. Really it seems to come down to the cold calculus of war. Sacrifice X so that Y lives.

Dark Eldar are the true good guys of 40k.

Commorogh is a utopia that Ultramar cannot parallel too. It's very advanced and the Dark Eldar have made great leaps in the understanding of anatomy and modern science. All these alagations of piracy have been misunderstood as noble expeditionary fleets seeking to see the outside universe after their evil Craftworld cousins birthed Slannesh. To their dismay, the greedy expansionist Tau and the dying fascist totalitarian empire of the Imperium. They aren't trying to hurt you, their trying to warn you about the impending tyranid invasion, because they are such a selfless people, that even though they exist within a impenetrable webway. They gladly sail the stars to protect the galaxy from itself.

They are the hero 40k deserves.

To be fair i think the eldar are the only good race in a sense that they are not trying to wipe all the other races out they mostly fight for survival but in the end good and evil are points of view each faction has its good guys and its douchebags

Space Wolves are not exactly the "good guys". Their attitude towards humans, or "mortals" as they call them, is not too dissimilar to that of the Chaos marines', who view them as disposable assets (SW, of course, don't slaughter humans for funsies). Dan Abnett's book on the Wolves makes this patently clear.

The only example people ever cite that supports the Wolves' supposed philanthropy, is their objection to the Inquisition's imprisoning all of the survivors of Armageddon. Well, that objection wasn't so much based on "we are here to protect these poor humans!" but rather, "these puny mortals fought bravely, and thus deserve better." Of course, such altruism is misplaced, considering the very real danger of Chaos corruption.

If you want a Chapter who really do care about the plight of humanity, you need to look to the Salamanders and Ultramarines,

Crimson-King2120 wrote:To be fair i think the eldar are the only good race in a sense that they are not trying to wipe all the other races out they mostly fight for survival.

And if the Farseers say they can save X amount of Eldar lives by sacrificing a thousand (or a million, or more) times that number of totally innocent humans, they will do it. Survival at any cost to bystanders isn't exactly "good".

So it is with almost every faction out there. The Tau might be using mind control or something, but at least they let you join them - few others would do so. Orks kill you because why not, but they don't hold any particular hatred for you. And so on.

Well, space wolves just seem, well, INSANE, so basically, the space wolves only stand up for the weak and the few to get an excuse to kill stuff. At least thats how I interpret it.

Wow so much hate for the wolves of Fenris. Wow.
Wolves save civilians not only during Armaggedon, but in every war they have fought.

Wolves are insane. Hey look at Ragnar and his company they fight extremely well. They may be disorganized but they do know how to make up tactics and fight for a long time.

Plus who Ever said Eldar are the real good guys....

Ultras, Salamanders, Blood Ravens (half of the chapter that is), Black Templars believe it or not (where they came into rescue an entire planet. read one of the white dwarves), and the Storm Wardens

Russ Mandarin wrote:It appears some people in this thread don't know what a death world is
The people who live on Fenris have to live that way because that's how you survive on a death world. The Space Wolves helping anyone or for that matter another fenrisian helping another who can't survive on their own is counter productive. You get soft that way and the planet will kill you.

Anyway I'd say the Space Wolves tie with the Salamanders as the most non dickish chapters.

Ah, so withholding technology and allowing the few inhabitants of Fenris to tear themselfs apart somehow helps them to survive on their Deathworld because poverty and constant warfare make you strong... /o\



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Crimson-King2120 wrote:To be fair i think the eldar are the only good race in a sense that they are not trying to wipe all the other races out they mostly fight for survival but in the end good and evil are points of view each faction has its good guys and its douchebags

Hrm, someone forgot to inform Biel Tan about the "not trying to wipe out all other races" part

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

BaneGuard wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:
not only do they refuse to shackle themselves, they go further than everyone else.

Isn't that exactly what space wolves do.

Spoiler:

The thousand sons were only attacked by the space wolves for warning the emperor of the threat of Horus, though they used normal librarians, as far as I am aware, though these were not allowed at the time.

Yes but the novel states that they wouldn't attack Magnus without orders, they would not have done it without the Emperor or Horus' consent. A Thousand Sons also seems to make it so that the entire legion are psykers, although I had thought only some were (perhaps they're changing the fluff).

Ah but Horus changed the orders from "Give them a good telling off" to "KILL THEM ALL"

If I recall correctly, Ultra's, Salamanders, Raven Guard and Black templars to a lesser degree, all care for Civies. Then you have all the unnamed compasionate chapters that aren't named.

I do this rather hesistantly but...

What are you folks collectively defining as "good" behavior?

I'm not trying to bring up the old canard about morals being relative, but when your establishing whether the pattern of behavior of an individual or group is acceptable or not your doing it against some sort of standard.

I mean for instance,someone brought up our favorite manipulator race's stereotypical action of "We sacrifice 1,000,000,000,000,000 human lives to save 10,000 Eldar" as a bad action.


So the "good" action would be...let the 10,000 Eldar get massacred?

If folks are going to put the Space Wolves (or any other group) "on trial" so to speak - its appropriate to tell the defendant by what Ruler/Code/Measure her or she is being judged on.

No. They aren't the only "good guys", and even whether they are is debatable. If you mean serve the imperium, there are plenty of "good guys". If you mean fight the good fight, back the underdog, stand up for what is right, etc., there are still the majority of space marine chapters and imperial guard armies.

The only notable exceptions to "good guys" that serve the imperium that I can think of are the inquisition (very shady, merciless, black and white views on just about everything)- most other factions seem to generally be "good guys".

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:What a lot of people are failing to grasp is that the accepted socialital norms that define who is good and who is bad are radically different between our world and the 40k world. In 40k its perfectly acceptale to burn a planet to the ground to save 10 planets. Those 400000 guardsman that died taking a fortress save 400000000000 peoples lives. Hence the medal. Really it seems to come down to the cold calculus of war. Sacrifice X so that Y lives.

This.

Shadowbrand wrote:Dark Eldar are the true good guys of 40k.

I dunno if this is serious or trolling... but Dark Eldar are possibly the most evil race in 40k. Commorragh's far from a utopia, it's a Randian-style dystopia, and every Dark Eldar is a self-centered sadist willing to do anything to live 1 second longer.

The Crusader wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

BaneGuard wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:
not only do they refuse to shackle themselves, they go further than everyone else.

Isn't that exactly what space wolves do.

Spoiler:

The thousand sons were only attacked by the space wolves for warning the emperor of the threat of Horus, though they used normal librarians, as far as I am aware, though these were not allowed at the time.

Yes but the novel states that they wouldn't attack Magnus without orders, they would not have done it without the Emperor or Horus' consent. A Thousand Sons also seems to make it so that the entire legion are psykers, although I had thought only some were (perhaps they're changing the fluff).

Ah but Horus changed the orders from "Give them a good telling off" to "KILL THEM ALL"

Yes, they were following the orders of the Warmaster, the Emperor's favoured son though. Not that it's not what they wanted though, of course.

Easy enough to answer. Sw fanboys will justify the sw attitudes of arrogance, hypocrisy, ignorance, stupidity, etc (this list could go in for a while), and those who are not sw fanboys will see sw as the arrogant, ignorant, hypocrites that they are.

Now, to be fair, the same could be said of any 40k faction. Their fans will like them and others will not. The sw are just an extreme example of this. But that being said, you've got to have some pretty extreme fanboy blinders on to think sw are good guys, much more so to seriously ask if they're the only good guys.

IMHO, sw are just this side of chaos. They do what they want without any thought of the consequences. Khorne must delight in their berserker rage. Tzcheench must still be giggling over the fact that sw have convinced themselves that rune priests don't get their power from the warp (which they do btw. Yes I know they say it's from shaman rituals, but that's what every primitive culture says about their magic men.) All four chaos gods must love the fact that the sw would put their pride before the safety of trillions of others by allowing the possibility of corrupted soldiers to spread the influence of chaos as far as possible. Really, the sw are probably one of chaos' most useful tools to use against the imperium.



Edited for punctuation and autocorrect errors.

What most seem to forget (as I see it) when citing novels is the time gap between the stories.

If I recall well, the events at Battle for the Fang were 1000 years after the Heresy, and aye, Vlka Fenryka where arrogant and even arseholes towards humans in some ways.

Now in M41 we have the space Wolves, with Grimnar as Great Wolf, and this is the period where they "softened up", we see it in the novels with Ragnar.

We need to keep in mind that Russ was the Emperor's executioner, Space Wolves where the Legion that could take down Legions. Without the Emperor and without legions, I see as natural evolution that they went from rabid wolves to shepherd dogs.

Dark wrote:What most seem to forget (as I see it) when citing novels is the time gap between the stories.

If I recall well, the events at Battle for the Fang were 1000 years after the Heresy, and aye, Vlka Fenryka where arrogant and even arseholes towards humans in some ways.

Now in M41 we have the space Wolves, with Grimnar as Great Wolf, and this is the period where they "softened up", we see it in the novels with Ragnar.

We need to keep in mind that Russ was the Emperor's executioner, Space Wolves where the Legion that could take down Legions. Without the Emperor and without legions, I see as natural evolution that they went from rabid wolves to shepherd dogs.

Quite possibly the Emprah used sw as his executioner ecause he knew only the sw were big enough pricks and arrogant enough to not only function as his executioner, but take joy in cutting down their own brothers. Yeah, sounds like the good guys to me (slight sarcasm there in case you missed it.) We learn in Legion that even Horus, had he won, would have hated himself for turning on his brothers and their father. Not the sw though. They take pride in being butchers.

Phiasco II wrote:

Dark wrote:What most seem to forget (as I see it) when citing novels is the time gap between the stories.

If I recall well, the events at Battle for the Fang were 1000 years after the Heresy, and aye, Vlka Fenryka where arrogant and even arseholes towards humans in some ways.

Now in M41 we have the space Wolves, with Grimnar as Great Wolf, and this is the period where they "softened up", we see it in the novels with Ragnar.

We need to keep in mind that Russ was the Emperor's executioner, Space Wolves where the Legion that could take down Legions. Without the Emperor and without legions, I see as natural evolution that they went from rabid wolves to shepherd dogs.

Quite possibly the Emprah used sw as his executioner ecause he knew only the sw were big enough pricks and arrogant enough to not only function as his executioner, but take joy in cutting down their own brothers. Yeah, sounds like the good guys to me (slight sarcasm there in case you missed it.) We learn in Legion that even Horus, had he won, would have hated himself for turning on his brothers and their father. Not the sw though. They take pride in being butchers.

They do the job they were given and the job they were created for...
They were manipulated by Horus into attacking the Thousand Sons, which really isn't that stupid of them because they had every reason to trust Horus.
They aren't good guys in the sense that they will save every man woman and child but they respect those that fight for the Emperor no matter how outmatched they are.