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KamikazeCanuck wrote:Mel, if this thread were about the Ultramarines you'd argue

... no, I'd probably be ignoring it. I actually rather like Space Wolves, and pay no attention to ultramarines for the most part.

You're the one committing a logical fallacy-- petitio principii to be specific.

Melissia wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Mel, if this thread were about the Ultramarines you'd argue

... no, I'd probably be ignoring it. I actually rather like Space Wolves, and pay no attention to ultramarines for the most part.

Then do you like them for their aformentioned evilness? About how they let their populace bascially live as cavemen?

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Then do you like them for their aformentioned evilness?

I like them for the way they treat guardsmen as equals, mostly.

Melissia wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:It was the perspective taken by Russ himself

That doesn't necessarily do much to support your argument.

Brother Ramses wrote:I look at it more akin to a person that was born and raised on a farm versus a person that was born and raised in the city. A person from the city cannot grasp what is needed to live on a farm and neither can the person from the farm grasp the intricacies of the city.

That's not particularly true in real life.

Culture shock is always present in these situations, but most people can adapt.

They both support my argument quite nicely.

As Russ intended has been a mantra recited by SW forever and has been integral to their survival. It closely ties with the belief system held by the SW that you learn by doing and remembering, not writing crap down and only reciting that which you have not learned personally. From an outside perspective it appears barbaric and inhumane, yet when put into practice it has worked for the SW since Russ was discovered on Fenris and made the decision to keep it a deathworld.

So while a civilian of Ultrmar can look at the deathworld that the SW maintain as a recruiting asset and say,

"How barbarian and inhumane!"

The Fenrisian civilian is more then likely to say,

"How weak and pampered!"

Yet what works for the Ultras works for the Ultras and likewise for the SW with results backing both methods.

Brother Ramses wrote:
As Russ intended has been a mantra recited by SW forever and has been integral to their survival. It closely ties with the belief system held by the SW that you learn by doing and remembering, not writing crap down and only reciting that which you have not learned personally. From an outside perspective it appears barbaric and inhumane, yet when put into practice it has worked for the SW since Russ was discovered on Fenris and made the decision to keep it a deathworld.

So while a civilian of Ultrmar can look at the deathworld that the SW maintain as a recruiting asset and say,

"How barbarian and inhumane!"

The Fenrisian civilian is more then likely to say,

"How weak and pampered!"

Yet what works for the Ultras works for the Ultras and likewise for the SW with results backing both methods.

I think that's pretty much the best summary regarding this thread - what is "good" for the people of Fenris or if the Space Wolves are "good" or honorable or however else one wishes to characterize it is simply in the eye of the beholder.

I've got two choices here - dig deeply into the thread, find out what the heck started the digression into American foreign policy, and hand out a whole bunch of moderator sanctions, or terminate the thread.

I think we'll let it end on Brother Ramses on-topic summary.