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Melissia wrote:Low level non-Astartes ones mostly, the ones that are rebelling against the Imperium's injustices for example.


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Je suis2 au hazard wrote:No. One imperial observer and no others

I can think of at least three Imperial sources and one "omniscient narrator" source, myself.

RIght, well I can still only think of Zachary Santiago and the narrator blurb in that ultramarines novel.

Everything I said about the Tau is true. I mean, if you choose to look at the Tau through rose colored lenses that have a bunch of smudges that keep you from seeing everything, you might call them "good".

However, everything we know about the Tau points to subtle mind control, social engineering, oppressive caste systems, and an aggressive expansionist policy that uses the pervasive propaganda of "The Greater Good" to justify a policy of conquering neighboring planets, and subsequently disenfranchising the subjugated. There is absolutely nothing "good" about the Tau. The Ethereals are just sneakier and more subtle about being galactic bastards.

Now, how do the Tau compare to the Imperium with its radical xenophobia, state sponsored genocide, and oppressive state sponsored and heavily armed church? Maybe they don't look "as bad". But unless you want to set the standard for "good" as being the "least evil", then there's no way you can call the Tau "good guys". Sure, the average brainwashed Tau is probably a "good" person, just as the average citizen of the Imperium is probably "good". But in no sense of the word is anything about the Tau Empire good.


Of course, being sneakily evil makes the Tau better, not worse. So it isn't like pointing out the truth about the Tau Empire is criticism. They don't make a lick of sense in 40K as the cheery, BESM cheerleaders for The Greater Good that a lot of their less well read fans try to claim. I can understand if people fell in love with the idea of the Tau as "good guys" are a bit irritated to find out that they were wrong, and that the Tau are really just a combination of classical literary "Big Brother" governments. But the truth is that "The Greater Good" is bullcrap, and they're really just one Soma away from Huxley's novel.


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Je suis2 au hazard wrote:It is separated into castes because each caste is a different species. I agree that if they were all physiologically/anatomically the same, like humans, and sorted into castes it would be bad.

How does this justify the fact that the individual castes are isolated from power or true decision making?

They expand because, other than the Mon'tau, the greatest fear of the tau is having a tiny kingdom that can be wiped out in a nanosecond. This is what originally prompted the tau to leave their homeworld: a single stellar radiation pulse of significant size could destroy everything they have created. This is how the tau mind works. So, they expand.

That's still a flimsy justification. They are still taking land by force based on a desire for personal gain. While not inherently evil, it is definitely not good. They are conquering land from somebody, and typically unprovoked. Unless preemptive strikes are somehow okay now, lol. I mean, I read a lot of criticism of the same perceived US policy.

They are simply the most forgiving faction. They offer you a good, full life as a member of their empire if you surrender and join.

So they don't exterminate, they just subjugate. "You've got freedom, so long as you only want the exact freedom we are offering."

Ethereals do not use mind control pheromones. If that were true, there would have to be 1 ethereal per tau on every tau world, because they'd have to follow them around, because pheromones cannot cover an entire world. Tau are not constantly around these leaders, and so they would either have every world rebelling on a regular basis, or the ethereals don't use any pheromones.

This is just completely useless. Plenty of stuff exists in 40K that doesn't seem like it can exist in the real world. We can use human ethics and values to make judgements about a fictional society. We can't use basic human science and physiology to make guesses about how an alien biology works. Saying the Tau can't use pheromones because they don't work like we understand human pheromones to work is like saying Space Marines can't exist because they don't work how we understand modern biology. It works, because in the setting, it does.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Everything I said about the Tau is true.

Eee. That depends on the time period really - as in the real world time period from the moment of their creation to the Backlash.

as Originally conceived:

According to Andy Chambers, the chief designer at the time, the Tau were intended "to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward." Graham McNeill was responsible for much of the background material produced for the Tau, developing what Andy Chambers described as "...their proud, quiet but determined character [developed] to the point where they actually became a rather likeable, if slightly naive addition to the cosmos.

And then the Backlash came. Mind you, i'll show my hand on this - I took part in said Backlash against the Tau Version 1.0.

Heck - I wanted the Kroot to be a faction.

Intentions are one thing. What actually resulted was something different. Whether it was intentional or not could be called into question, sure. Graham McNeill missing the mark on his fluff isn't surprising in the least, lol. After all, this is the guy who absolutely botched the Ultramarines.

@ Veteran Sergeant,

No. Am I the one looking at them with too much bias? I admit, I am inclined to like them, but no more so than you seem disinclined to believe in their goodness.

Aggressive expansion? Hardly. The third phase expansion was mostly taking back planets lost in the DGC, with only six new septs (major planets) added. Almost all tau worlds are previously unsettled.

They do not simply "invade" planets. They offer to make the planet a protectorate, allow them to trade for superior tau technology. They do not "disenfranchise" their auxilliaries, they give them their own worlds within the empire. Notice how Pech, T'ros and Vespid all have single-species populations, are all part of the empire, and none of them have any tau on them?

The greater good is the quasi-religion of the tau, it is so much more than just propaganda.

You speak as if you have already won the argument in that fourth paragraph. This is far from correct. You are adding nothing but opinion, whereas my previous post was fact-based. Less well read? My bookshelves groan under the load of my BL books, codices and white dwarf magazines. There is nothing/next to nothing about the tau I have not read.

Isolated from power? A Shas'O can command all the fire caste assets of an entire world. He can even find the Por'O, Kor'O and Fio'O and organize a coalition. He is completely unfettered on the battlefield, and can even choose to retire and join the council. This is simply a structured way of life. Similar to Sun Tzu's thoughts about commanding an army, really.

@ your next paragraph, typically unprovoked? They act according to the wishes of those on the planet, as you can see based on the fact that the entire population of Taros supported them, other than the arbiters. They annex worlds by negotiating with their leaders, not with threats, but with promises. In fact, nothing they do is unprovoked. The first hostile contact wit the imperium was unprovoked, with the DGC being launched in response to tau trade routes

On taros they were actually protecting the people; they would have been censored for xenos contact. They requested tau military intervention. Tau actually help imperial frontier worlds, even though the imperium loses planets, the tau do what is best for the people, though admittedly not for that reason.

They don't subjugate. They allow their auxilliaries to have their own worlds, under tau protection.

Because even in 40k, something the size of an ethereal being able to spread pheromones over the entire surface of a fething planet is not possible. With pheromones that powerful they should be able to control their enemies, as well.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Intentions are one thing. What actually resulted was something different.

You forget Veteran - the rest of the fanion had to raise an outcry of epic proportions just to even move Andy and Graham from "Noble Naieve Weeboo Samurai Warriors" to something more in line with the Grimdark nature of WH40k.

And frankly - the staunchest (read: loudest) critics of the Tau don't think the marker was ever moved far enough - they essentially agree with Tau Fans like Je suis2 au hazard. Which is why the Tau continue to be on the receiving end of their criticism.

So - what does GW do? It does what it always does - Splits the Difference and lets everyone walk away with their version of the Truth.

Same reason why when you walk up to GW staff during a convention and ask them point blank about things like the Vespid Communion Helms, they give the most non-committal answer to the question.

And why the Tau still are portrayed with a dose of that naievity even into 5th Edition Warhammer - case in point:

From the War of Dark Revelations - M41, Dark Eldar Codex

It was at this desperate time when a Dark Eldar Haemonculus named Urien Rakarth contacted the Tau High Command and made a proposal: he and his Coven, The Prophets of Flesh, would join the war against the Tyranids in return for what he called a 'cultural exchange'. Looking for allies anywhere they could, the Tau eagerly agreed. Initially the new alliance seemed to be working out marvelously:

..........

Battling the Tyranids alongside Tau Fire Warriors, the Dark Eldar deployed a new weapon: long-limbed Grotesques that moaned in despair as they hacked through the Tyranid horde. After six days of carnage the Tau and insidious creations of Rakarth were victorious. However a terrible suspicion began to dawn. Vid-captures from Tau Drones showed that the Grotesques of Rakarth were of a blue-grey coloration all too familiar to the Tau. Mere seconds after the Tau realized to their horror what had become of their "cultural exchange",

..........

Realizing the kind of monster Rakarth was, the outraged Tau refused the deal and became determined to punish the Haemonculus Lord for his crimes. Mobilizing their fleet reserves from the nearby planet Rubikon, the Tau made course for Rakarth's fleet in orbit. However the Haemonculi fleet turned out to be nothing but mirages and empty space. Confused, the Tau then received a desperate message from Commander O'Shaev detailing that Rubikon was now under attack by Rakarth's forces. Now undefended, Rubikon was the subject of a massive bloodbath that saw even Supreme Overlord of Commorragh Asdrubael Vect himself and his Kabal of the Black Heart involved in the fray. The Prophets of Flesh deployed thousands of Wracks, Grotesques, and Pain Engines which overwhelmed the spirited Tau defense. When Tau reinforcements finally arrived, they found Rubikon to be a barren world, its populace stolen away to the horrors of Commorragh.

Really..."Cultural Exchange?" Who in their right mind would ever fall for that?

Of course, that was a little bit better than what happened to them in Tyranid Codex 5th edition - you know the Hive Fleet Gorgon encounter..

From Ka'mais Incident

In 075902.M41 dozens of Bio-ships detached from the main Hive Fleet and invaded the Tau colony of Ka'mais. This triggered the emergence of an unexpected Necron fleet from Ka'kais' dead moon which then set about destroying the outnumbered Tyranid ships. On Ka'mais a day of celebration was declared and as the Necrons landed they were greeted with great ceremony by Ethereal Aun'taniel. Despite the welcome, Aun'taniel was quickly slain by the Necrons and Ka'mais was then harvested.

And so here we see the role of the Tau solidified to that of "village idiot" of WH40k. Not exactly what i had in mind back in 2001 when they first came out and we were allowed "input" into the creation process - but its what we're stuck with.

Je suis2 au hazard wrote:Am I the one looking at them with too much bias?

I would definitely say yes.

Keep in mind, this is 40k. No faction is good in 40k. Individual heroes are, but the entire faction, no.

Je suis2 au hazard wrote:RIght, well I can still only think of Zachary Santiago and the narrator blurb in that ultramarines novel.

There's also the FFG material and the Relic material as well.

Je suis2 au hazard wrote:Am I the one looking at them with too much bias? I admit, I am inclined to like them, but no more so than you seem disinclined to believe in their goodness.

Yes. But the caveat to that is you also happen to stand in the mainstream majority of how Tau players interpret the Tau.

I mean frankly - they were designed to attract people like that in the first place who wouldn't be attracted to any of the other factions due to the Grimdark of it all.

Melissia wrote:There's also the FFG material and the Relic material as well.

Yes, because the non-canon ending (according to Relic) matters. Somehow.

FFG, actually, if you read some of the books, has the Inquisition capture an Ethereal and find no evidence of any 'pheromones', though to be fair, the Inquisition also suspects it's some sort of trick.

Xenology, well, again, Xenology has been retconned by GW.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:So they don't exterminate, they just subjugate. "You've got freedom, so long as you only want the exact freedom we are offering."

Sarge, that's different from what you doled out in Afghanistan.... how? You can choose your leaders as long as we approve them and they agree with us. Kettle, how black thou art!

Je suis2 au hazard wrote:
Ethereals do not use mind control pheromones. If that were true, there would have to be 1 ethereal per tau on every tau world, because they'd have to follow them around, because pheromones cannot cover an entire world. Tau are not constantly around these leaders, and so they would either have every world rebelling on a regular basis, or the ethereals don't use any pheromones.

For once we agree. And claiming that 'It's ok because it's in key with the setting' is an excuse so broad and so flimsy that it can even justify 'MULTILAZORZZZZ!' and SW simply jumping tens of thousands of kilometers between starships. The problem is that even the faintest gust of wind would blow it away and the fact that Tau firewarriors are stated to have full chemical sealing on their armor. You know, something that would utterly block it even under the logic of 40k?

BaronIveagh wrote:Yes, because the non-canon ending (according to Relic) matters. Somehow.

It's still evidence of what they would have done in a victory.

BaronIveagh wrote:FFG, actually, if you read some of the books, has the Inquisition capture an Ethereal and find no evidence of any 'pheromones', though to be fair, the Inquisition also suspects it's some sort of trick.

But there were many other horrible things the Tau did in those books.

BaronIveagh wrote:Xenology, well, again, Xenology has been retconned by GW.

But not necessarily in its entirety, also, I didn't mention xenology...

BaronIveagh wrote:Sarge, that's different from what you doled out in Afghanistan.... how? You can choose your leaders as long as we approve them and they agree with us. Kettle, how black thou art!

You realize that this IS a complaint that is constantly leveled against the US to justify why the US is evil and OMGWTF THE DEVAIL!, right? If you want to argue the US is evil, certainly the Tau are far worse because of their highly aggressive and expansionary nature that makes the US look rather tame in comparison

BaronIveagh wrote:Sarge, that's different from what you doled out in Afghanistan.... how? You can choose your leaders as long as we approve them and they agree with us. Kettle, how black thou art!

Try to only use funny quips when you don't understand what they mean.

At what point have I attempted to justify the war in Afghanistan? How can I be a pot calling the kettle black? Just like your silly female Space Marines thread, try to keep your arguments in the realm you're equipped for. However, to make you even sillier looking (not sure that is possible, but I'm going to give ti an honest effort), I've actually used comparisons with the United State's policies and drawn parallels with how American policy has been heavily criticized, and also said that the United States, as much as it has been involved in plenty of charitable and humanitarian efforts, cannot be considered "good" because it has never acted with any real altruism, only a desire to further its own agenda.

Like any successful state.

However, if you can't see the difference between the current war in Afghanistan and aggressive wars of conquest, you are even less well equipped for this discussion than I thought. You really should have chosen something even remotely relevant. Maybe Manifest Destiny and the American conquest of the North American continent. Though ultimately that would have been even more fuel for my argument, so perhaps your ignorance of history and politics worked in your favor this time, lol.

Je suis2 au hazard wrote: Am I the one looking at them with too much bias?

Absolutely. I have no feelings for, or against, the Tau. I simply look at their fluff, identify the influences, and make reasonable evaluations of them.

Aggressive expansion? Hardly. The third phase expansion was mostly taking back planets lost in the DGC, with only six new septs (major planets) added. Almost all tau worlds are previously unsettled.

Are we now just selectively choosing which portions of Tau "history" apply and which don't? And you accuse me of bias? Come on. Let's argue like adults.

They do not simply "invade" planets. They offer to make the planet a protectorate, allow them to trade for superior tau technology.

So they... complexly invade? Trying to figure out what the actual difference is.

They do not "disenfranchise" their auxilliaries, they give them their own worlds within the empire.

Do they?

Notice how Pech, T'ros and Vespid all have single-species populations, are all part of the empire, and none of them have any tau on them?

They still lost their independence and are forced to serve The Greater Good.

The greater good is the quasi-religion of the tau, it is so much more than just propaganda.

Without opening the can of worms on differentiating propaganda and religion, it is still propaganda, even if it has other levels and methods of social control.

You speak as if you have already won the argument in that fourth paragraph.

I won it in my first post. I just waited until the fourth paragraph to highlight the fact.

You are adding nothing but opinion, whereas my previous post was fact-based.

Ahh, the "Nuh uh!" defense comes out. Don't feel too bad. It is ultimately the recourse of all "Tau are good guys!"fans

Less well read? My bookshelves groan under the load of my BL books, codices and white dwarf magazines.

Well, I think that admission just about sums it up. Did it ever occur to you that when I would claim someone, including myself, to be well read, that perhaps I might be talking about real, good books, and not Black Library fluff? The mention of being "well read" means having read enough legitimate material that you can identify influences, and draw realistic and accurate comparisons between one set of material and another, or perhaps between one set of material, and say, history, sociology, or psychology. Don't get me wrong. You might well be a Black Library scholar. And, well, uh, good work on that.

Isolated from power? A Shas'O can command all the fire caste assets of an entire world. He can even find the Por'O, Kor'O and Fio'O and organize a coalition. He is completely unfettered on the battlefield, and can even choose to retire and join the council. This is simply a structured way of life. Similar to Sun Tzu's thoughts about commanding an army, really.

Something tells me the most you know about Sun Tzu was a special on the History Channel. However, ultimately, the Shas'O serves the Ethereals, and has no opportunity for independent action, and never will. He is given power over the armies because the Ethereals have socially engineered Tau society to make the Fire Caste purpose built for that task.

They act according to the wishes of those on the planet, as you can see based on the fact that the entire population of Taros supported them, other than the arbiters. They annex worlds by negotiating with their leaders, not with threats, but with promises. In fact, nothing they do is unprovoked. The first hostile contact wit the imperium was unprovoked, with the DGC being launched in response to tau trade routes

On taros they were actually protecting the people; they would have been censored for xenos contact. They requested tau military intervention. Tau actually help imperial frontier worlds, even though the imperium loses planets, the tau do what is best for the people, though admittedly not for that reason.

They don't subjugate. They allow their auxilliaries to have their own worlds, under tau protection.

A lot of "theys" without specifying who "they" are, and what the actual motivations and controlling factors were. And I think, when you said "protection" at the end, you meant control. After all, those planets didn't need any protection by the Tau, until the Tau arrived to protect them, lol. You seem to have forgotten that the Tau had considered military conquest of Taros, but deemed it too costly, so they engaged in various forms of underhanded "diplomacy" in order to influence the government of Taros. In the end, the Imperium's decision was to remove the Planetary Governor, not to censure the populate (or censor, lol). So this idea that they were "protecting" the people of Taros is ludicrous at best, and an outright lie at the worst. They went to Taros with the intention of slowly but surely infiltrating and converting the planet's highest authorities, and then annexing the planet for "The Greater Good". They cared nothing for the people there. And the "they" was not "the people of Taros", it was the corrupted Planetary Governor, and he didn't need intervention until after the Tau had already convinced him to turn against his own, thus inviting the military action from the Imperium. The Tau started that war. They didn't come to the rescue, lol. I mean, perhaps they didn't intend for it to end in military action, but that really just paints them as inept and stupid. Not as good guys.

Because even in 40k, something the size of an ethereal being able to spread pheromones over the entire surface of a fething planet is not possible. With pheromones that powerful they should be able to control their enemies, as well.

Maybe the Ethereal control is more complex than you are considering. I mean, you've been a little short in all other aspects of your analysis. I figure that's a fairly safe assumption in this case too. I mean, pheromones are simple one suggestion that has been made as to how the Ethereals control and influence the Tau. It doesn;t even necessarily have to be the correct one. In the end, though, we do know that the Ethereals do exert some kind of control. After all, in their absence, Tau revert to their natural tendencies. As another example, Farsight, when separated from the Ethereals, punched his time card and took off, never to return.

The Black Templars and the Salamanders put their bodies and lives between the Ork Hordes and the imperial citizens in the hive cities on Armegeddon in Helsreach. They had to sacrifice entire sections of the cities and abandon entire hive cities all together, but it was always "the needs of the many over the needs of the few" type decisions.

BaronIveagh wrote:Xenology, well, again, Xenology has been retconned by GW.

Where? When? Citation?

GW/BL has never invalidated any previous material to my knowledge (without providing new material, anyway... see Necrons/DE/GK to a lesser extent); the closest they've come is stating that things they label with the Heretic stamp are somewhat out of date and probably not applicable (and the only things that bear the stamp are Ian Watson's books, which no one should read anyway).

Also, how ridiculously off-topic is this thread now?

BaronIveagh wrote:

Melissia wrote:There's also the FFG material and the Relic material as well.

Yes, because the non-canon ending (according to Relic) matters. Somehow.

FFG, actually, if you read some of the books, has the Inquisition capture an Ethereal and find no evidence of any 'pheromones', though to be fair, the Inquisition also suspects it's some sort of trick.

alright - this is going to result in another 10 more pages of "Are the Tau good?" subset within the "Are the Space Wolves good?"...

So let's clear the air:

the FFG books present a wonderful "on-target" interpretation of the Tau as FFG is essentially towing the GW line.

Yes they do a number of questonable things in line with what has been said before.

But they also stick their necks out for their human subjects - remember that planet where a majority of the population had already been infected by the Genestealer/Tyranid virus?

The response wasn't an Exterminatus-style response (ie: Kill them all) , Abandon the Planet, or etc. etc. The Earth Caste got to work and invented a retrovirus to "recode" their DNA sequences.. Every...last...person.. on the planet. And their doing this with Hive Fleet Dagon slowly approaching - the influence of the Hive Mind becoming stronger....which result in the Tau being overrun. Cue: Heroic Deathwach Team who must join hands with the Tau and save all of them from becoming Bug Food.


Another example - there was a Death World mentioned where all the plant and animal life are extensions of some sort of Planet wide organism that is hostile. So do the Tau..

a.) Kill everything and claim the planet
b.) Interdict travel to the planet
c.) Repeatedly send expeditions (that get killed..all..the time) in order to try and communicate with the Planet wide entity.

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Look i'm just going to keep bringing up my own objections to the "Are _______ good?"

Namely - No faction can be good - but persons can be.


40Ks Grimdarkness (although sometimes taken waaaaayyy too serious at times) prevents something like a Federation or an Alliance (the generic Democratic yet somewhat dysfunctional Utopian "Good guy" Scifi faction) from ever cropping up.

Cause the Future is Brutal. The Future is War.

At the same time I can't help but laugh a little - this "Are ______ good?" seems to be a problem that exclusively belongs to the Factions not classified as Xenos Horrificus.

Chaos, Tyranids, Necrons, and my Orks - well the fandom/players never get into arguments such as these.

Its probably because we are all supposed to be "1 Note" - uncomplicated in our motivations (with some small exceptions made for Chaos).

To you who play the Imperium, the Eldar, and the Tau - Complicated Motivation is your "gift." Its what creates the tension that allows you to relate with the factions you have chosen. That mix of honor, bitter struggle, hope for a positive outcome, and the realities of survival.



And yet......some folks work their hardest to get their faction to be "1 Note."

Irony or ironies.







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Omegus wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:Xenology, well, again, Xenology has been retconned by GW.

Where? When? Citation?

GW/BL has never invalidated any previous material to my knowledge (without providing new material, anyway... see Necrons/DE/GK to a lesser extent); the closest they've come is stating that things they label with the Heretic stamp are somewhat out of date and probably not applicable (and the only things that bear the stamp are Ian Watson's books, which no one should read anyway).

Also, how ridiculously off-topic is this thread now?

Ah - here be Truth.


An aside: Did you know Ian Watson is considering writing a 4th Heretic Tome to finish off the Inquisitor War? Part of me feels like picking it up for the sake of the retro feel to laugh at.

At the same time I can't help but laugh a little - this "Are ______ good?" seems to be a problem that exclusively belongs to the Factions not classified as Xenos Horrificus.

Chaos, Tyranids, Necrons, and my Orks - well the fandom/players never get into arguments such as these.

I object!

Orks are the only truly good race in the galaxy! They follow their moral code closer than any other race that actually has something resembling a moral code!

Okay if we want to move away from the clear cut good guy argument.
I'll say to their credit the Space Wolves are by far the most honorable chapter in the IoM. The hold onto the Imperial Truth and the original ways of the great crusade instead of putting the codex and its many flaws above their own primarch's teachings.

Also Iv'e Never seen the Space Wolves go out and condone outright slaughter "for the greater good" like so many other factions.

That assumes that you think that the "Imperial Truth" is honorable; considering that many of its facets were patently false, there's a good argument to be made that the Emperor was going to eventually let go of it anyway and embrace his godhood and that the Horus Heresy sped up his plans to get to a point where he never intended to go.

I am a marine. I drink a lot. I dont act like an imbescile and a lot of the time i am drunk while here

Melissia wrote:

At the same time I can't help but laugh a little - this "Are ______ good?" seems to be a problem that exclusively belongs to the Factions not classified as Xenos Horrificus.

Chaos, Tyranids, Necrons, and my Orks - well the fandom/players never get into arguments such as these.

I object!

Orks are the only truly good race in the galaxy! They follow their moral code closer than any other race that actually has something resembling a moral code!

they also have a near-perfect society. There's a quote in... Some codex, but it's an IoM dude who comments on how the orks have almost literally evolved the perfect society. If anything, being an Ork presents the best options of any species in 40k. Are they good? Not really, they kill things for fun. But at the same time, they aren't xenophobic morons who slaughter entire systems to keep themselves a secret. Their simplicity is why they are so successful.

if it wasn't for the inquisition or the high lords of terra I'd say the impirium.

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:An aside: Did you know Ian Watson is considering writing a 4th Heretic Tome to finish off the Inquisitor War? Part of me feels like picking it up for the sake of the retro feel to laugh at.

I... I'm not sure how to feel about that.

On the one hand, he is the worst BL author ever (even counting Goto, since while Goto's stories are nonsensical and full of stupid, but at least they flow acceptably well; Watson's writing style is so ponderous and tedious to work through, reading his books is akin to hard labor... another way of putting it is that Goto is a decent writer, but horrid author, while Watson is terrible at both).

On the other hand, maybe this book would actually tie up all the more interesting story-lines (like ya know, the Illuminati and that whole Inquisition War thing the books are titled after) he completely abandoned half way through the second book to focus on his bs romance story.

Ugh, just trying to remember some of the crap from those books makes my blood pressure rise. That man's execution is long over-due. I say I should get his manuscript first. If it is acceptable, he gets to die quickly and with minimal pain. If it is not, death by 1,000,000 scrotal paper cuts.

I've read through the first two books of inquisition War and starting on the third. I quite like them. I hope Watson comes back to the BL.

McNinja wrote:

Melissia wrote:

At the same time I can't help but laugh a little - this "Are ______ good?" seems to be a problem that exclusively belongs to the Factions not classified as Xenos Horrificus.

Chaos, Tyranids, Necrons, and my Orks - well the fandom/players never get into arguments such as these.

I object!

Orks are the only truly good race in the galaxy! They follow their moral code closer than any other race that actually has something resembling a moral code!

they also have a near-perfect society. There's a quote in... Some codex, but it's an IoM dude who comments on how the orks have almost literally evolved the perfect society. If anything, being an Ork presents the best options of any species in 40k. Are they good? Not really, they kill things for fun. But at the same time, they aren't xenophobic morons who slaughter entire systems to keep themselves a secret. Their simplicity is why they are so successful.

LOL to both of your comments Melissia and McNinja.

I'll give my Orks the following - i think they are probably the most consistent faction in terms of worldview - simply because their ethical/moral standards are uncomplicated and they are not overly burden by reflective thought.

When happiness in life consists of a good fight (in a universe constantly at war) - how can one do wrong?

To quote anotehr forumite - they are the most psychologically stable of all the factions.

The Nightbringer (at least odd Necron fluffwise) was unsuccessful of planting the fear of death into the species, and Chaos has no means of relating to the Orks to tempt them.

The only God who may have an "in" with them is Khorne - but the Ork response would not be veneration of Khorne.

ie: Who cares about Khorne! WAAAAGGGH!!!


But the major point i was trying to bring up is that there is hardly any hand-wringing about the Moral/Ethical nature of Orks...or Tyranids.. or Necrons..etc.

The primary role of these factions are to act as Antagonists. We're not stuck trying to come up with a justification for our actions - we simply just do them.

There is some in a Rogue Trader supplement.

The FFG roleplaying game, not the old tomes.

Omegus wrote:
I... I'm not sure how to feel about that.

On the one hand, he is the worst BL author ever (even counting Goto, since while Goto's stories are nonsensical and full of stupid, but at least they flow acceptably well; Watson's writing style is so ponderous and tedious to work through, reading his books is akin to hard labor... another way of putting it is that Goto is a decent writer, but horrid author, while Watson is terrible at both).

On the other hand, maybe this book would actually tie up all the more interesting story-lines (like ya know, the Illuminati and that whole Inquisition War thing the books are titled after) he completely abandoned half way through the second book to focus on his bs romance story.

Ugh, just trying to remember some of the crap from those books makes my blood pressure rise. That man's execution is long over-due. I say I should get his manuscript first. If it is acceptable, he gets to die quickly and with minimal pain. If it is not, death by 1,000,000 scrotal paper cuts.

ROFL! I understand your trepidation. Watson had some interesting ideas, but his execution was very off.

The chance to get actual resolution vs.... seeing Chaos Squats again?


Secondary Aside: Since you bring up CS Goto, did you know he's actually quite aware of the "MuLtiLAzErs" joke as well. he references it on his website and offers up a justification that he's just trying to shake our worldviews - ie: What some might consider "Trolling" the whole WH40K fanbase.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:ust like your silly female Space Marines thread, try to keep your arguments in the realm you're equipped for. However, to make you even sillier looking (not sure that is possible, but I'm going to give ti an honest effort), I've actually used comparisons with the United State's policies and drawn parallels with how American policy has been heavily criticized, and also said that the United States, as much as it has been involved in plenty of charitable and humanitarian efforts, cannot be considered "good" because it has never acted with any real altruism, only a desire to further its own agenda.

Like any successful state.

However, if you can't see the difference between the current war in Afghanistan and aggressive wars of conquest, you are even less well equipped for this discussion than I thought. You really should have chosen something even remotely relevant. Maybe Manifest Destiny and the American conquest of the North American continent. Though ultimately that would have been even more fuel for my argument, so perhaps your ignorance of history and politics worked in your favor this time, lol.

I simply asked how the tau selecting their government for them (aka creating a puppet state, as opposed to ruling directly, which is typically done in a more traditional war of conquest) was different from what the US is doing in Afghanistan. Which by the way, you did not actually answer, you simply went off on a tangent about global perception of the US and generally denigrated my intelligence. While I grant that there is a general perception within the US that 'We're the good guys', we both know what a load of horsegak that is.

Since I'm 'less well equipped for this discussion' than you thought, spell it out for me. What's the difference between the tau appointing a government and the puppet state the US has set up in Afghanistan?

Russ Mandarin wrote:Okay if we want to move away from the clear cut good guy argument.
I'll say to their credit the Space Wolves are by far the most honorable chapter in the IoM. The hold onto the Imperial Truth and the original ways of the great crusade instead of putting the codex and its many flaws above their own primarch's teachings.

Also Iv'e Never seen the Space Wolves go out and condone outright slaughter "for the greater good" like so many other factions.

Whoo boy. Most honorable. I'm just waiting for the Ultramarine fan to barge in and go WUT?!



As Melissia said:

That assumes that you think that the "Imperial Truth" is honorable

Ie: Its a matter of taste.


There's no objectivity scale of what is "honorable" - everyone is going to define it differently and point to their favorite Chapter as being "most honorable."

Heck - somewhere in this thread, i believe Kaldor listed a good deal of the negative qualities associated with the Space Wolves, and although strident in tone kinda highlights the downside of being amongst the Space Wolves.

Except those negative qualities are also connected to their positive ones.


In truth - "crowning" a faction as being "good/honorable/whatever" says a lot more about what the player values rather than making an objective statement.

I'm sorry, but the Space Wolves were never real proponents of the Imperial Truth. The Imperial Truth (Lie?) was that there are no gods or demons, and that humanity is in charge of its own destiny and should rule the galaxy. Basically, a message of unity and enlightenment.

The Space Wolves carry on the superstitious, tribal beliefs with them into their new life as Astartes. And they basically snub their noses at every other member of the Imperium, lord over those mortals unfortunate enough to be born on Fenris but not be turned into Astartes, and concern themselves only with who they are going to fight next and sniffing each others' butts. No unity or enlightenment here.

@ Sarge, I really do not feel like making a million quotes for your text wall, So I'll address most of the main points, and any other you feel are important but I skipped you can PM me about, d'accord?

Firstly, I know more about Sun Tzu than a history history channel special, I do not even watch TV. I have read several versions of the Art of War and done my own research. I mentioned BL, codex and WD material because that is what is pertinent, do not mistake that for an admission of illiteracy.

Anyways,

About the power of the 'O rank, yes, they answer to the ethereals. A sergeant answers to his captain. So what? Modern day leaders have to answer to the people. Unlimited power is not a good thing. Only Aun'va holds power anywhere near that, and he is still a part of one of the councils, if memory serves.

Of course he has the chance for independant action, Ethereals only rarely take to the field of battle. Meaning he leads. And need I remind you the fire caste outdates the Ethereals? Their tendencies are their own.

The massive block of text I'll answer in my next post, so on to the last one:

No. It is not being depraved of pheromones (or whatever their theoretical, non-existant control is #throwingyouabone) that sent Farsight over the edge. He was already an aggressive individual from an aggressive world, and when his ethereal was killed, the grief and rage sent him over the edge. The only other plausible reason is if his xenotech blade altered his sanity in some way, as it already seems to have extended his life some sixfold, without him seeing any signs of frailty.

And I am deeply sorry for misspelling censure, I am a francophone and sometimes have issues with that particular pair of words.


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A lot of "theys" without specifying who "they" are, and what the actual motivations and controlling factors were. And I think, when you said "protection" at the end, you meant control. After all, those planets didn't need any protection by the Tau, until the Tau arrived to protect them, lol. You seem to have forgotten that the Tau had considered military conquest of Taros, but deemed it too costly, so they engaged in various forms of underhanded "diplomacy" in order to influence the government of Taros. In the end, the Imperium's decision was to remove the Planetary Governor, not to censure the populate (or censor, lol). So this idea that they were "protecting" the people of Taros is ludicrous at best, and an outright lie at the worst. They went to Taros with the intention of slowly but surely infiltrating and converting the planet's highest authorities, and then annexing the planet for "The Greater Good". They cared nothing for the people there. And the "they" was not "the people of Taros", it was the corrupted Planetary Governor, and he didn't need intervention until after the Tau had already convinced him to turn against his own, thus inviting the military action from the Imperium. The Tau started that war. They didn't come to the rescue, lol. I mean, perhaps they didn't intend for it to end in military action, but that really just paints them as inept and stupid. Not as good guys.

They=the tau empire.

I already mentioned the motivation. They want to expand their empire for fear of a single, unstoppable cataclysm wiping out the entire species.

Protection=/=control. They did need protection before hand, it just turns out their former guardians (The IoM) respond to threats kinda slow, as in sometimes hundreds of years later, and the tau are better protectors since they will always be close at hand to stop and hive splinter/WAAAGH! endangering their world, while providing them a fair (especially in comparison to the IoM) government, superior technology and generally better way of life?

Tau did not start the war. Combat was the idea of the IoM. The tau were there for profit, whether it be from annexation or trade routes. And the governor did not turn against his people. They wanted the tau. 8000 men of the taros PDF and tarosian mining gangs supported them in combat, against freakin' space marines. Do you understand what that means? They were all for the greater good, zealous even. And obviously pheromones weren't the cause, as otherwise ethereals would not be able to come under attack from humans, if they affected them too...they could just control them.

BaronIveagh wrote: Which by the way, you did not actually answer,

I'm sorry, at what point did I become obligated to address your inane tangential arguments?

I must not have gotten the memo.

However, addressing it is kinda pointless because I already said it was more or less the same thing, and I agreed with you, even if you were confused and though I had expressed a contrary opinion (which seems ludicrous since the comparison supports my argument).


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Je suis2 au hazard wrote:Tau did not start the war. Combat was the idea of the IoM.

Wait.

Are you really going to suggest that the war was started by the Imperium because they sought to protect and/or reclaim their sovereign territory which had been stolen by the Tau? Really? I mean, the Imperium is guilty of all sorts of meaningless wars of aggression due to their extreme xenophobia and/or other faults. But it's downright absurd to suggest the Imperium started the war because they responded with hostility to an obvious encroachment on one of their worlds and a very understandable perception of threat. You can pretty often paint the Imperium as the "bad guys". This is not one of these cases, unless you are just the most blindly, willfully ignorant of Tau fans, lol.