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Ive been reading up on the fluff of space wolves and it seems to me that they are the only "good guys" in the whole universe. they have a code, They stand up for the weak, they call the imperium on its BS ( see defying orders to save lives and families) They spit in the face of the imperium when it is necessary and they dont take no s%$# from anyone. When you compare the fluff of Space puppies to say the GK or the grind house guard it seems that SW are the only ones who still have.... the word i want to use is "humanity"..... maybe im off the mark but they remind me a lot of US marines (i grew up around those guys they all seem very space wolfy).

an internet cookie for your thoughts?

Salamanders are "Good Guys" too. They stand up for the small man, and constantly protect the humans on their home planet from utter annihilation.

I wouldn't say Space Wolves are good guys. They're egotistical, easily deceived, closet heretics.

They're the Dirty Harry of the 40K 'verse.

dreadfury101 wrote:Ive been reading up on the fluff of space wolves and it seems to me that they are the only "good guys" in the whole universe. they have a code, They stand up for the weak, they call the imperium on its BS ( see defying orders to save lives and families) They spit in the face of the imperium when it is necessary and they dont take no s%$# from anyone. When you compare the fluff of Space puppies to say the GK or the grind house guard it seems that SW are the only ones who still have.... the word i want to use is "humanity"..... maybe im off the mark but they remind me a lot of US marines (i grew up around those guys they all seem very space wolfy).

an internet cookie for your thoughts?

They keep their homeworld in a state of perpetual poverty and endless tribal warfare to ensure an ample supply of recruits ( unlike, for example, The Ultramarines which have established academies on their homeworlds and no longer have to rely on recruiting savages ).
They are self righteous and short sightened ( no, leaving survivors of an apocalyptic daemonic invasion alive isn't mercyful, it is stupid unless you wish to spread the taint of chaos ) with no regard for the wider implications of their actions. They also have a strange habit of disrespecting the legitimate authorities of the Imperium, the very people who can actualy see the wider picture.
Every professional soldier who would come even close to behaving like the Spacewolves would end his carreer with a court martial.

If you want "good guys" then perhaps the scions of Guillaume, who seem to have a habit of building stable and prosperous societies instead of behaving like spoilt children, might be the most fitting.

Coolyo294 wrote:I wouldn't say Space Wolves are good guys. They're egotistical, easily deceived, closet heretics.

How are they closet heretics?
How are they easily deceived?

The Raven Guard stands in the same corner as the salamanders, helping only those who really needs it (in their eyes obviously) and not striking with the three other chapters and the 4 IG Regiments only to bring this longhunted archtraitor the imperial justice, if they could instead save lives of worthfull humans.

Shadox wrote:The Raven Guard stands in the same corner as the salamanders, helping only those who really needs it (in their eyes obviously) and not striking with the three other chapter and the 4 IG Regiments only to bring this longhunted archtraitor the imperial justice, if they could instead save lives of worthfull humans.

Of course the longhunted archtraitor might, if he escapes, cause the death of entire planets.

The SW still do the white knight things that i have yet to hear about from any other SM faction, they actually try to save the lives of humans. killing the innocent just seems inhuman. it different when they are on the verge o like turning into zombies or something but the just burn away the planet with no regard to the survivors is what tore me away from the GK

Anfauglir wrote:They're the Dirty Harry of the 40K 'verse.

That's a pretty decent explanation actually.

I say this...
Anything a spacewolf does can be attributed to either a hangover, or not having enough Ale.

"Good Guys" is a subjective point of view. The Imperium isn't necessarily "good." In fact, most/many of the things they do are far from it. Space Wolves are no different. They help innocents and fight for those who can't, but, as stated above, they harm those same innocents to satisfy their own goals.

In my opinion, no they are not the good guys because Warhammer 40k is a continuity devoid of good guys. There are bad guys, there are worse guys, and there are the worst guys. Space Wolves can fit any of those categories. The entire IoM can as well.

If you read "A Thousand Sons" you wouldn't think Space Wolves were good guys. Furthermore, 40k has no faction that is good (though it does have a few good people, usually caught in the crossfire or being used by one faction).

Space Wolves and their dog of a Primarch are a bunch of rabid dogs. Among the original Legio Astartes, only Angron and the World Eaters were worse.

Shadox wrote:The Raven Guard stands in the same corner as the salamanders, helping only those who really needs it (in their eyes obviously) and not striking with the three other chapters and the 4 IG Regiments only to bring this longhunted archtraitor the imperial justice, if they could instead save lives of worthfull humans.

Didnt Shrike Save a Women Who spent days knee deep in chaos? And served a daemon prince? The scout Sgt did save her too(as in not deciding to execute her)
But then again the raven guard torture enemies.

The Tau are good . . . or at least they think they are.

Jefffar wrote:The Tau are good . . . or at least they think they are.

Talk about off-topic...

Tadashi wrote:

Jefffar wrote:The Tau are good . . . or at least they think they are.

Talk about off-topic...

The guy asked about Good factions in the universe.

The Tau are one of the few who come close to that.

Jefffar wrote:The Tau are good . . . or at least they think they are.

Everyone thinks they're good. Besides, the Tau are only good relative to the rest of the setting. They're a society run by racist nutcases who utilize mindcontrol and don't flinch at the concept of sending innocents to their death. Except they're slightly more hesitant to kill than everyone else, because war is expensive.

While the SW are alright, the "good guys" of the Space Marines are BY FAR the Salamanders~

Jefffar wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Jefffar wrote:The Tau are good . . . or at least they think they are.

Talk about off-topic...

The guy asked about Good factions in the universe.

The Tau are one of the few who come close to that.

Using pheromones as a means of mind control to keep your populace in order isn't really good. Their "join us or die" ideology is far from good also.

LoneLictor wrote:

Jefffar wrote:The Tau are good . . . or at least they think they are.

Everyone thinks they're good. Besides, the Tau are only good relative to the rest of the setting. They're a society run by racist nutcases who utilize mindcontrol and don't flinch at the concept of sending innocents to their death. Except they're slightly more hesitant to kill than everyone else, because war is expensive.

That's purposeful though.. i mean the "everyone thinks their good" part.

Remember how the Tau came into existence in the first place.. And no i don't mean fluff wise, i mean "Marketing Executive over at GW thinking up a new faction,,,,"

They were supposed to be the "good guys" until ye vocal lovers of Grimdark cried foul.


And the response IMHO, is one of the most impressive Marketing ploys GW has ever pulled off.

Anyone notice how the the Codices for the Tau are a chuck full of ambiguity?

Take the fluff-iness of the "Vespid Communion Helms"

Tau Lovers Say: Greater Good Communication Device!

Tau Bashers Say: "OBVIOUS MIND-CONTrOL"

and GW says: "Interpret it anyway you want to.......cause we aren't going to give a direct answer."


And by not giving a direct answer, they partially appease both groups...and collect their money.

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:

Jefffar wrote:The Tau are good . . . or at least they think they are.

Everyone thinks they're good. Besides, the Tau are only good relative to the rest of the setting. They're a society run by racist nutcases who utilize mindcontrol and don't flinch at the concept of sending innocents to their death. Except they're slightly more hesitant to kill than everyone else, because war is expensive.

That's purposeful though.. i mean the "everyone thinks their good" part.

Remember how the Tau came into existence in the first place.. And no i don't mean fluff wise, i mean "Marketing Executive over at GW thinking up a new faction,,,,"

They were supposed to be the "good guys" until ye vocal lovers of Grimdark cried foul.


And the response IMHO, is one of the most impressive Marketing ploys GW has ever pulled off.

Anyone notice how the the Codices for the Tau are a chuck full of ambiguity?

Take the fluff-iness of the "Vespid Communion Helms"

Tau Lovers Say: Greater Good Communication Device!

Tau Bashers Say: "OBVIOUS MIND-CONTrOL"

and GW says: "Interpret it anyway you want to.......cause we aren't going to give a direct answer."


And by not giving a direct answer, they partially appease both groups...and collect their money.

This is kind of the point of the whole universe, marketing wise.

Take Imperial Guard for example, you could make yourself leader of a brave and dauntless army, devising brilliant tactics to use the strength of a normal man to shatter the plans of your foes, or you can be an uncaring, commissar of a leader, sending hundreds of thousands of men at the enemies strongest point until they drown in a sea of corpses, and then you pin another medal on your chest and call it a day.

The point is, every single faction is left ambiguous enough that you can play it almost any way you want, except for possibly 'nids, but even they have variations.

Alos, space wolves are as good as any other imperial institution, which is to say "Completely terrible and morally reprehensible,"

dreadfury101 wrote:Ive been reading up on the fluff of space wolves and it seems to me that they are the only "good guys" in the whole universe. they have a code, They stand up for the weak, they call the imperium on its BS ( see defying orders to save lives and families) They spit in the face of the imperium when it is necessary and they dont take no s%$# from anyone. When you compare the fluff of Space puppies to say the GK or the grind house guard it seems that SW are the only ones who still have.... the word i want to use is "humanity"..... maybe im off the mark but they remind me a lot of US marines (i grew up around those guys they all seem very space wolfy).

an internet cookie for your thoughts?

It really comes down to who is writing them up.


Ever since Grimdark was instituted as the overarching theme of the 40K universe, there has been interesting push/pull between writers attempting to interpret various different factions.

McNeill and Abnett for instance decided to really "dirty up" the Emperor's rep to fit the Grimdarkness theme - a bit of a departure from the ambiguity left in Ian Watson's Jaq Draco encounter with Big E.

CS Goto.....yyyyyeeeaahh.. you know what, let's skip him.

But suffice it to say there's a push toward a "We're all screwed" tendency in Warhammer 40K fiction.

And yet there are also moments of rebellion, where some writers decide to draw the line and say "You know what......NOT HERE."

That's how we end up with folks like Ciaphas Cain (who for all his self-deprecation is a pretty good guy) and Shira Calpurnia (Judge Dredd light > Crazy Space Mehreens!).

Even the WH40K: Space Marine video game decided to feature a very non-blood thirsty heroic protagonist in the form of Captain Titus (good old Mark Strong) - swapping out the established Commander of the 2nd Ultramarines company for him. This guy cares about civilians, interprets the Codex Astartes loosely, etc. etc.


So i guess you can say - for all the Grimdarkness of the Grimdark future - a light still shines for those who would strike that match instead of curse the darkness.

The space wolves are biggoted, anti-authoritarian, drunkards with anger management issues. They aren't some noble oversight committee who 'calls the Imperium on their BS', they are a spoiled teenager who screams 'you can't tell me what to do!' and throws a tantrum.

moom241 wrote:
The point is, every single faction is left ambiguous enough that you can play it almost any way you want, except for possibly 'nids, but even they have variations.

I'm not so sure about that.

Take the responses to this very thread for instance. We have 1 person saying "Hey, Space Wolves.. not so bad aren't they?"

And well.. everyone else is saying "NOO SPACE WOLVES, HYPOCRISY! WE BE GRIMDARK!" etc.etc. Or to put it in a more understandable tone: "the world of 40K is a terrible place where every faction has blood on its hands."

That isn't ambiguity. That's pretty much the New Dogma.

I mean, the only faction that has essentially survived the "GrimDark Rebranding" nearly unscathed has been my own favorite faction - the Orks. And that's because many of the GW designers acknowledge that they'd loose a large chunk of the Ork fan base if they attempted to move too far away from its roots as a play-off of British Football Hooligans (i mean really that's what they are).

killing the innocent just seems inhuman

There is no such thing as innocence, merely degrees of guilt.

We can interpret the SW 2 ways (i dont play them yet, im an IG meat grinder so i dont hold them on pedestal yet) either 1 they are childish drunken bafoons only wanting to do what they want with no understanding of the greater imperial plan OR drunken, burly, Vikings in space with a serious morality complex that demands they stop at no costs to save the innocent. to paraphrase justin timberlake in that new time movie, "its not worth it if even one person has to die"

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:I mean, the only faction that has essentially survived the "GrimDark Rebranding" nearly unscathed has been my own favorite faction - the Orks. And that's because many of the GW designers acknowledge that they'd loose a large chunk of the Ork fan base if they attempted to move too far away from its roots as a play-off of British Football Hooligans (i mean really that's what they are).

First of all, Orks are funny grimdark. They're alien fungus footbal hooligans who go around pillaging the galaxy and slaughtering innocents.

Secondly, "GrimDark Rebranding" isn't a really thing. The game started out grimdark. Hell, 5th edition is currently less grimdark than Rogue Trader. If anything, it's getting less grimdark. And that's a bad thing, because grimdarkness is the only thing that makes 40k unique. Pretty much everything else is stolen from Dune, Judge Dredd, Starship Troopers, Michael Moorcock, BattleTech and other stuff. Here's a whole thread that lists a bunch of stolen stuff along with assorted Easter Eggs.

dreadfury101 wrote:We can interpret the SW 2 ways (i dont play them yet, im an IG meat grinder so i dont hold them on pedestal yet) either 1 they are childish drunken bafoons only wanting to do what they want with no understanding of the greater imperial plan OR drunken, burly, Vikings in space with a serious morality complex that demands they stop at no costs to save the innocent. to paraphrase justin timberlake in that new time movie, "its not worth it if even one person has to die"

I would say its more accurate to depict the space wolves attitude (as directed by thier current grand pubah, L.G.) Why do we fight, but if not to save the very people that ARE the imperium?
So in their defence we will stand no matter who be their foe.

And lets see a modern day marine stand by and let his squad mate, who hes fought and bled for, be falsely accused, sentenced, and executed by a U.N big wig. Hell, lets see the USMC, stand by and let the UN wax North Carolina for no other reason than "there are middle easterners there" (because they could be terrorists to avoid misunderstandings)