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You realise Kharn hits on 2+ in CC? By my calculations with 5 attacks he should by averaging 4.1 hits. And IIRC he also gains +1 or +2 Str from Gorechild so that will alter things.

Deadshot wrote:You realise Kharn hits on 2+ in CC? By my calculations with 5 attacks he should by averaging 4.1 hits. And IIRC he also gains +1 or +2 Str from Gorechild so that will alter things.

I was using Daves chaos codex, didn't realise they nerfed any of the characters.

Managed to get the 4th ed chaos dex, he does hit on a 2+, but doesnt get any other benefit (except armour pen) and lucius is fairly awful. Can't get the 5th ed though

Did you factor in his extra attack for his plasma pistol. I don't know his stats or rules other than 2+ to hit, +Sttr, 1 or 2 I can't remember and has a Plasma Pistol.

Toastedandy wrote:

Deadshot wrote:You realise Kharn hits on 2+ in CC? By my calculations with 5 attacks he should by averaging 4.1 hits. And IIRC he also gains +1 or +2 Str from Gorechild so that will alter things.

I was using Daves chaos codex, didn't realise they nerfed any of the characters.

Managed to get the 4th ed chaos dex, he does hit on a 2+, but doesnt get any other benefit (except armour pen) and lucius is fairly awful. Can't get the 5th ed though

There is no 5th ed. The only 5th ed Dexes are SM, IG, GK, BA, SW, Crons. Orks and Daemons I suppose as they were designed for 5th but technically they are 4th.

4th ed he hits on a 2+ and gets no bonus to his str. He has a plasma pistol, but the lash reduces the attack by one so it negated its bonus in combat.

He has 5 attacks standard, and str5.



This is the first time I'm looking at this dex, and I'm beginning to regret starting a chaos army. :(

Kharn has furious charge though iirc, so if he gets the charge he will be at Str 6.

Isn't Kharn immune to all things psychic? I'm not sure if Lucius' abilities will function properly against him...

This being said, I still give it to Lucius on or off the table, just saiyan.

DoW

Lucius stands no chance against Kharn, who is immune to any psychic powers/weapons that Lucius has, and who can rip Lucius to pieces faster.

Two things that make Lucius (In the fluff) a dominant character here.
#1
Lucius is THE most skilled deullist in the galaxy. Full stop. There is absolutely no one (Alive) from the greatest of the wolf lords to the nastiest swarmlord incarnation, who has as much sheer skill as Lucius. Sure Lucius dies. But he does so to learn his weaknessess. He fights for the sole pupose of becoming the ultimate single combat champion. He is now so skilled that it has been mentioned that he beat skulltaker in one on one combat. Skulltaker, Khornes ultimate champion and herald. Compared to Skulltaker Kharne is a baby waving a rattle. If Lucius can outskill Skulltaker, then he can outskill Kharne.

#2
Lucius's ability to turn into someone else isnt a psykic power per se, What is happening is during the fight Lucius learns everything that there is about the fighter and the fighter learns everyhting there is about Lucius. When Lucius dies the fighter now knows so much about Lucius that in every respect when it comes to fighting, he IS Lucius. What happens then is the attribute of Lucius start to come through, the lust for skill, the enjoyment of the kill, eventually the physical attributes. What is happening is that the body is litterally becoming Lucius through direct influence of the warp. Slaanesh meerly started this effect when he raised Lucius the first time. Now the warp is set to autorun. And even Khorne cannot stop the will of the warp. It transcends the gods. And Khorne is not immune.

The gods are simply the embodiments of base emotions. What the transformation to Lucius is, is the simple transformation of the victim from his normal self, to the closest embodiement of the emotion and traits that is Lucius. This is the warp at work, Not Slaanesh. What would happen, even if Kharne managed to kill Lucius, is that Kharne would simply cease to be a patron of Khorne, become one of Slaanesh, and boom Lucius.

Toastedandy wrote:In game I'd have to say Lucius, but not by much.

Lucius gets first turn:

Doom siren = 66.6% chance of wound
6 attacks @ WS 7 = 3 hit. Re-roll brings it up to 4.5 hits.
4.5 hits @ S 4 = 2.25 wounds re roll brings it to 3.25

Kharn retaliates

5 attacks @ WS 7 = 3 hit
3 hits @ S 5 = 2 wounds

Lucius: 2 wounds @ 4+ inv
Kharn: 3.25 wounds @ 5+ inv and the chance of the doom siren

Lucius:
5 attacks @ WS 7 = 3hit. Re-roll brings it to 4 hits
4 hits @ S4 = 2 wounds, reroll brings it to 3

Kharn retaliates

5 attacks @ WS 7 = 3 hit
3 hits @ S 5 = 2 wounds

Lucius: 2 wounds @ 4+ inv
Kharn: 3 wounds @ 5+

Lucius would have it if he got the charge

Kharn attacks first

Plasma pistol hits 2+, wounds 2+

6 attacks @ WS 7 = 3 hit
3 hits @ S 5 = 2 wounds

Lucius retaliates

5 attacks @ WS 7 = 3 hit, re-roll brings it to 4
4 hits @ S 4 = 2 wounds, reroll brings it to 3

Even with the charge Lucius is winning.




Fluff wise, I dunno, same result I suppose. Single combat is not the same as how many people you can kill.


Also, why are people thinking Lucius is a Ninja like character? His whole theme is of an unmatched duelist. Basically specializing in single combat.

Kharn is a mindless bull, point him at something and he will hit it till it bleeds. He would not be even close to Lucius.

In the game kharn hits everything on 2+, your results are incorrect.

Lucius is THE most skilled deullist in the galaxy. Full stop. There is absolutely no one (Alive) from the greatest of the wolf lords to the nastiest swarmlord incarnation, who has as much sheer skill as Lucius. Sure Lucius dies. But he does so to learn his weaknessess. He fights for the sole pupose of becoming the ultimate single combat champion. He is now so skilled that it has been mentioned that he beat skulltaker in one on one combat. Skulltaker, Khornes ultimate champion and herald. Compared to Skulltaker Kharne is a baby waving a rattle. If Lucius can outskill Skulltaker, then he can outskill Kharne.

Avatar of khaine

Kaldor Draigo

Pheonix lords

Asdrubael Vect/Lelith hesperax/Drazhar/Archons

Could all match or surpass Lucius

Kharn/Bloodthirsters/An'ggrath

Sanguinor

Mephiston

Abbadon

Castellan Crowe

Imperial Assassins

Could all firmly beat him.

Je suis2 au hazard wrote:

Lucius is THE most skilled deullist in the galaxy. Full stop. There is absolutely no one (Alive) from the greatest of the wolf lords to the nastiest swarmlord incarnation, who has as much sheer skill as Lucius. Sure Lucius dies. But he does so to learn his weaknessess. He fights for the sole pupose of becoming the ultimate single combat champion. He is now so skilled that it has been mentioned that he beat skulltaker in one on one combat. Skulltaker, Khornes ultimate champion and herald. Compared to Skulltaker Kharne is a baby waving a rattle. If Lucius can outskill Skulltaker, then he can outskill Kharne.

Avatar of khaine

Kaldor Draigo

Pheonix lords

Asdrubael Vect/Lelith hesperax/Drazhar/Archons

Could all match or surpass Lucius

Kharn/Bloodthirsters/An'ggrath

Sanguinor

Mephiston

Abbadon

Castellan Crowe

Imperial Assassins

Could all firmly beat him.

He didn't say there was nothing that could beat him, only that he was the most skilled duelist, which is true, at least according to the fluff.

Out of those, Lelith is the only one who could possibly compete with him without being overly strong/monstrous/armoured/etc. I think that would make for a very interesting fight!

DoW

You can't even argue that unarmoured and everything he could match a pheonix lord. Or the Sanguinor. Or crowe, or An'ggrath...most of them, really.

Maybe not abaddon. Being a massive armoured beast is one of the main things he has going for him.

Actually just saying, the sanguinor isnt actually that skilled. It is mentioned a couple of times that reports of his prowess are actually overexxagerrated by agents of the imperium. he is a propaganda machine...

Je suis2 au hazard wrote:

Lucius is THE most skilled deullist in the galaxy. Full stop. There is absolutely no one (Alive) from the greatest of the wolf lords to the nastiest swarmlord incarnation, who has as much sheer skill as Lucius. Sure Lucius dies. But he does so to learn his weaknessess. He fights for the sole pupose of becoming the ultimate single combat champion. He is now so skilled that it has been mentioned that he beat skulltaker in one on one combat. Skulltaker, Khornes ultimate champion and herald. Compared to Skulltaker Kharne is a baby waving a rattle. If Lucius can outskill Skulltaker, then he can outskill Kharne.

Avatar of khaine

Kaldor Draigo

Pheonix lords

Asdrubael Vect/Lelith hesperax/Drazhar/Archons

Could all match or surpass Lucius

Kharn/Bloodthirsters/An'ggrath

Sanguinor

Mephiston

Abbadon

Castellan Crowe

Imperial Assassins

Could all firmly beat him.

This thread isnt about wether Lucius could beat the others, or wether he is mroe skilled, I still maintain he is, but thats not the point, The point is that he is more skileld than Kharne, faster, and has much MUCH better reflexes which ultimatley are the things that determine a fight, not brute strength or brawn, (although those help) Remember, Kharne isnt actually that much stronger than any other marine. He is just visous. Not the point. Even IF kharne could beat Lucius down, Lucius would just come back... So Lucius still wins.

If Lucius and an Avatar actually meet in combat, I'm sure Slaanesh would give lucius an edge.

Toastedandy wrote:If Lucius and an Avatar actually meet in combat, I'm sure Slaanesh would give lucius an edge.

Have to go with Lucius on this one.

I know I am kinda bumping the thread. I am reading the new HH book the primarchs and one line aticks out about Lucius.
"Only a warrior capable of the most berserk fury would stand against him. He remembered a battle captain on Istaavan III that tore through his own men like a man possessed."

He is.refering to Kharn.

This is also at a point in the fluff where Lucius is far older established, we shouldnt take too much stock from this either way.

Kharn wins the fight. The real question is who would win: She Who Thirsts trying to turn Kharn into a new Lucius, or Khorne trying to stop her.

p_gray99 wrote:Kharn wins the fight. The real question is who would win: She Who Thirsts trying to turn Kharn into a new Lucius, or Khorne trying to stop her.

Khorne wins, hands down.