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Hunterindarkness wrote:Eh its a BL book, He is about as high as the standard gets. Game wise there may be no such beast but I am arguing the book, it which its pretty clear they have flight capability.

Now anyone who notices my books will no I do not like using BL stuff( even good stuff) as a canon argument. I would say Canon wise as of yet no Guard unit we know of has flight packs.

Argh.

You just had to bring up the 'what's canon' argument, didn't you?

Let's just stop there.

pretre wrote:

Soladrin wrote:Or trolling xD

I'm the all mighty Dutch seal, ask nick.

Well if were playing at pedantry, can I have a go? They have compressors that create jets of air to help fly around. Jetpack.

Flinty wrote:Well if were playing at pedantry, can I have a go? They have compressors that create jets of air to help fly around. Jetpack.

me too me too, they had to run and jump to get off the ground yeah, so jump packs!

Kanluwen wrote:
The trainer could do all kinds of this with those packs, the incision team, not so much.

Yes, and that trainer is someone who intimately trained with the Icarus packs and on page 409 you see them using a jump tower which was 35 meters high.

Flinty wrote:Well if were playing at pedantry, can I have a go? They have compressors that create jets of air to help fly around. Jetpack.

Are the jets making them fly(hover)?

No?

Then it's not a jetpack.
It's a jump pack utilizing gravity nullifying devices for its primary lift, with the jets being used to control the finer points of maneuvering.

Flinty wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:
The trainer could do all kinds of this with those packs, the incision team, not so much.

Yes, and that trainer is someone who intimately trained with the Icarus packs and on page 409 you see them using a jump tower which was 35 meters high.

But there is the bit where the trainer explains that in order to go up after jumping out the transport, just press the button all the way down. 2/3ds is enough to stabilise the user against terminal belocity. More than that makes you fly.

The trainer, Babbist, also explains that it is the grav nullifiers which provide the lift. The ducted fan only provides thrust.

Edit was to fix a quote tag.

Its a pack with jets, therefore surely by definition its a jetpack?

I know the jets don't provide the primary lift, but that doesn't stop it being a jetpack. It is also a jump pack, but again the two terms are not mutually exclusive.

The definition of a jetpack is that it uses the jets for providing the main lift.

This uses them for thrust.

This thread has taken a turn that can only be aptly expressed by referring to the boundless wisdom of The Boondocks (Granddad's Fight to be precise) :

''Remember, people, we could all be reading a book just about now''.

Reading books is what lead to this problem.

Nah, I'd say it's putting too much attention to the wrong books that led us ALL here...

This is a bunch of semantical nonsense, but in the end, what we think of as jet packs in 40k are not the same thing as grav chutes.

Melissia wrote:This is a bunch of semantical nonsense, but in the end, what we think of as jet packs in 40k are not the same thing as grav chutes.

Unless there Anti-grac Chutes! lol JK

anyone else notice in the pic the dudes are flying up to the ship not down, as the dude is clearly stepping onto the valk

Kanluwen wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:So they could fly..but can't fly because the name? They could go up,down, left,right and hover in place. Does it matter what they were called they had flight capability.

If you keep bringing up the idea that they had "flight capability"(which is what a jetpack has), then yeah it does matter.

No clue about forgeworld or its rules. What I know was, the book stated the pack had flight capability and that they left the craft away from the target, not over top of the target. Some got blew away a long distance from the drop zone and flew to the target if you recall.


It was a BL book so what the GW or Forgeworld rules say had zero baring on it. The pack in the book had flight capability.


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Kovnik Obama wrote:Nah, I'd say it's putting too much attention to the wrong books that led us ALL here...

Moire like GW lazy approach to canon and not control the setting

This has essentially boiled down to arguing over semantics, for the purposes of the OP's question I'm sure there are IG special forces that would have access to Jetpacks, though it would depend on how extensive their armoury was.

Kanluwen wrote:[
Are the jets making them fly(hover)?

No?

Then it's not a jetpack.
It's a jump pack utilizing gravity nullifying devices for its primary lift, with the jets being used to control the finer points of maneuvering.

You wouldn't happen to have read the Imperial Armour: Volume 11, would you? Because this describes the Shadow Spectres jetpacks almost exactly.

Hazardous Harry wrote:This has essentially boiled down to arguing over semantics, for the purposes of the OP's question I'm sure there are IG special forces that would have access to Jetpacks, though it would depend on how extensive their armoury was.

Not really. IG as a whole do not have "special forces".

It's also worth noting that even if they did, what would they need with a "jetpack"?

Kanluwen wrote:
Are the jets making them fly(hover)?

No?

Then it's not a jetpack.
It's a jump pack utilizing gravity nullifying devices for its primary lift, with the jets being used to control the finer points of maneuvering.

You wouldn't happen to have read the Imperial Armour: Volume 11, would you? Because this describes the Shadow Spectres jetpacks almost exactly.

I'm quite aware of what it says in there. It's also worth noting that it's referred to as a jetpack because Shadow Spectres are considered "jetpack infantry".

Kanluwen wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:This has essentially boiled down to arguing over semantics, for the purposes of the OP's question I'm sure there are IG special forces that would have access to Jetpacks, though it would depend on how extensive their armoury was.

Not really. IG as a whole do not have "special forces".

Of course they do, not every regiment/task-force will have access to a crack squad of Stormtroopers. They'll have to make do.

If you're saying that they don't have seperate entities of special forces (Like an IG equivalent to Delta or somesuch), then I'd agree. Any special forces they do have would probably be deployed on an as-needed basis, and the participants would certainly be drawn from the current rank and file.

It's also worth noting that even if they did, what would they need with a "jetpack"?

The situations where a jetpack would be prefferable to your more common grav-chute would be uncommon, but definitely would exist. Such as fighting through towering spires, or situations like Phantine.

You wouldn't happen to have read the Imperial Armour: Volume 11, would you? Because this describes the Shadow Spectres jetpacks almost exactly.

I'm quite aware of what it says in there. It's also worth noting that it's referred to as a jetpack because Shadow Spectres are considered "jetpack infantry".

And? Here, I'll provide the excerpt on their jetpacks in full.

Doom of Mymeara, Shadow Spectres Aspect Warrior, pg 141 wrote:
4. Jetpack
Integral to the aspect warrior's armour is his jetpack. Masters of anti-grav technology, the Eldar's personal flight pack incorporates sophisticated stabilization and self-correcting controls, allowing the Eldar within to adjust altitude and velocity with its subconcious thoughts via a mind-link. Such delicacy of control allows for speed, reactivity and manoeurvrability unkown to other races.

Operating almost silently, allowing the user to move with stealth and effect repeated surprise ambushes, the jetpack's top speed and maximum altitude are currently unknown.

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And, um...nice new Avatar.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:This has essentially boiled down to arguing over semantics, for the purposes of the OP's question I'm sure there are IG special forces that would have access to Jetpacks, though it would depend on how extensive their armoury was.

Not really. IG as a whole do not have "special forces".

Of course they do, not every regiment/task-force will have access to a crack squad of Stormtroopers. They'll have to make do.

If you're saying that they don't have seperate entities of special forces (Like an IG equivalent to Delta or somesuch), then I'd agree. Any special forces they do have would probably be deployed on an as-needed basis, and the participants would certainly be drawn from the current rank and file.

The problem is labeling them as "special forces". They're not special forces in any real sense of the word, as in forces which have specialized training and designated roles.

They'd more likely be veterans who have demonstrated an aptitude for the kind of assignment that would be needed.

It's also worth noting that even if they did, what would they need with a "jetpack"?

The situations where a jetpack would be prefferable to your more common grav-chute would be uncommon, but definitely would exist. Such as fighting through towering spires, or situations like Phantine.

Phantine wasn't really a situation where a "jetpack" was preferable. It was essentially an island-hopping campaign, where each "island" was a towering Hive. The place was effectively built of layer upon layer, with each new iteration "growing" over the last. At a certain point within the cities, it would likely have become too dangerous to live for extended periods of time--meaning that the jump packs that we saw the Tanith and Phantine issued weren't really intended for the purpose you seem to think they were. The idea wasn't to have them hopscotching from level to level, but rather they were for the initial insertion wherein they'd have to deal with savage wind currents, etc.

You wouldn't happen to have read the Imperial Armour: Volume 11, would you? Because this describes the Shadow Spectres jetpacks almost exactly.

I'm quite aware of what it says in there. It's also worth noting that it's referred to as a jetpack because Shadow Spectres are considered "jetpack infantry".

And? Here, I'll provide the excerpt on their jetpacks in full.

Doom of Mymeara, Shadow Spectres Aspect Warrior, pg 141 wrote:
4. Jetpack
Integral to the aspect warrior's armour is his jetpack. Masters of anti-grav technology, the Eldar's personal flight pack incorporates sophisticated stabilization and self-correcting controls, allowing the Eldar within to adjust altitude and velocity with its subconcious thoughts via a mind-link. Such delicacy of control allows for speed, reactivity and manoeurvrability unkown to other races.

Operating almost silently, allowing the user to move with stealth and effect repeated surprise ambushes, the jetpack's top speed and maximum altitude are currently unknown.

I know what it says. I have the book sitting on my shelf.

The point I was making is that it was very likely labeled "jetpack" because of the fact that the unit is, in fact, labeled as "Jetpack Infantry" in its unit type.

in the end....

Who cares?

Its a device that lets you move through the air in a controled manner.

jet pack, jump back, Heli-pack, who cares what its called! it lets you fly! now.... moving on.

Answer to question: Yes.... the IG special forces (Storm Troopers or anyone designated for special duties or training) have a form of back mounted propulsion that lets them hover/fly/control their movement in the air.

Kanluwen wrote:[

Phantine wasn't really a situation where a "jetpack" was preferable. It was essentially an island-hopping campaign, where each "island" was a towering Hive. The place was effectively built of layer upon layer, with each new iteration "growing" over the last. At a certain point within the cities, it would likely have become too dangerous to live for extended periods of time--meaning that the jump packs that we saw the Tanith and Phantine issued weren't really intended for the purpose you seem to think they were. The idea wasn't to have them hopscotching from level to level, but rather they were for the initial insertion wherein they'd have to deal with savage wind currents, etc.

This is not the way i recall it. The first place they took was built across a mountain range. The second was also built upon mountain peaks and was not near by but a few hours away by airship. The target was a massive domed city, but not the standard hive or built upon the tops of hives. You may be recalling part of the book where they talk about whats below the clouds, but the two "hives" spoken of in the book were not built around or on them, but the small peaks of the few mountain ranges not under the clouds. They needed the "jump packs" to cover the half a kilometer or so stealth inflight.

Kanluwen wrote:They did not "fly" with them. They were able to hover, with lateral and tuning movement being done by bursts of compressed air from the PDU.
By adjusting the output of the gravity nullers, you would ascend and descend. By discharging air from the compressor fan, you would control the direction and speed you were moving.

There were no "jets" involved in this system at all, at all.
You're looking at the bill, and calling a platypus a duck.

So....what you're saying is...its a jetpack?

Kanluwen wrote:
The problem is labeling them as "special forces". They're not special forces in any real sense of the word, as in forces which have specialized training and designated roles.

If that's all that's required to be called special forces then the Imperial Guard most certainly have, indeed the Codex makes mention of such regiments with special training and dedicated roles (in particular regiments that are experts at demolitions). We know that this regiment was specially equipped and trained (as opposed to simply veterans being good at what they do) because they're name indicated they were founed as a dedicated demolitions force.

They'd more likely be veterans who have demonstrated an aptitude for the kind of assignment that would be needed.

Yes, they'd doubtless have veterans, as you say. We could probably safely say these are even the majority. But there are still instances where special forces exist in the Imperial Guard.

Phantine wasn't really a situation where a "jetpack" was preferable. It was essentially an island-hopping campaign, where each "island" was a towering Hive. The place was effectively built of layer upon layer, with each new iteration "growing" over the last. At a certain point within the cities, it would likely have become too dangerous to live for extended periods of time--meaning that the jump packs that we saw the Tanith and Phantine issued weren't really intended for the purpose you seem to think they were. The idea wasn't to have them hopscotching from level to level, but rather they were for the initial insertion wherein they'd have to deal with savage wind currents, etc.

Hunterindarkness has already beaten me to this.

I know what it says. I have the book sitting on my shelf.

Good to hear. How fething sweet are Eldar Corsairs?

The point I was making is that it was very likely labeled "jetpack" because of the fact that the unit is, in fact, labeled as "Jetpack Infantry" in its unit type.

I would imagine they're labelled as "Jetpack Infantry" because they use jetpacks.

Kanluwen wrote:IG as a whole do not have "special forces".

Yes they do. They're called Storm Troopers.

Kanluwen wrote:The problem is labeling them as "special forces". They're not special forces in any real sense of the word, as in forces which have specialized training and designated roles.

Again, yes, that's exactly what they are; soldiers with specialised training and equipment in order for them to perform specific battlefield roles and special operations.

Anfauglir wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:IG as a whole do not have "special forces".

Yes they do. They're called Storm Troopers.

Actually, I would not say Storm Troopers are IG per se. They come from the Schola Progenium, in fact I do not know if they adhere to the IG hierarchy at all or if they are an entirely seperate organisation like the Sororitas.

Harry's right, Stormtroopers aren't part of the Imperial Guard. They just tend to deploy with them.

Hazardous Harry wrote:Actually, I would not say Storm Troopers are IG per se. They come from the Schola Progenium, in fact I do not know if they adhere to the IG hierarchy at all or if they are an entirely seperate organisation like the Sororitas.

Yes, they're trained by the Schola, just like the Commissars. Upon graduation, they enter armed service with the IG. I've yet to read anything that suggests they are a completely seperate organisation a la Astartes, Inquisition, Arbites, Navy, etc etc...

htj wrote:Harry's right, Stormtroopers aren't part of the Imperial Guard. They just tend to deploy with them.

See above.

Anfauglir wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:Actually, I would not say Storm Troopers are IG per se. They come from the Schola Progenium, in fact I do not know if they adhere to the IG hierarchy at all or if they are an entirely seperate organisation like the Sororitas.

Yes, they're trained by the Schola, just like the Commissars. Upon graduation, they enter armed service with the IG. I've yet to read anything that suggests they are a completely seperate organisation a la Astartes, Inquisition, Arbites, Navy, etc etc...

They are a separate organization in terms of how they're deployed.

Stormtroopers are not part of the organic structure of a regiment--just like Commissars. They are assets which are attached to a regiment by a higher authority, usually to perform the tasks that special forces would engage in.

Stormtroopers do not answer, necessarily, to the regiment's command structure but instead the command structure which sent them to serve alongside the regiment.

This is the only dude in the Empire who has a backpack with Jets:

Kanluwen wrote:They are a separate organization in terms of how they're deployed.

How does deployment method factor in here? Storm Troopers can and are known for being dropped in via Valkyrie... but they can also role in via Chimera, and vice versa for normal Guardsmen. They are ground troops, just like normal infantry, therefore they are deployed as part of the IG. They either operate alongside normal infantry on the front lines, or they are used behind enemy lines for more spec ops, but they are always deployed as part of larger ground operation, all working towards the same overarching battlefield objective (whatever that may be).

Stormtroopers are not part of the organic structure of a regiment--just like Commissars. They are assets which are attached to a regiment by a higher authority, usually to perform the tasks that special forces would engage in.

By what higher authority? The DM? If so, they are subject to the same hierarchy as the IG. If not, then I'd like to know because I've yet to read otherwise. The bolded part further supports the idea that the Storm Troopers are the IoM's special forces, in terms of infantry.

Stormtroopers do not answer, necessarily, to the regiment's command structure but instead the command structure which sent them to serve alongside the regiment.

Again, being what? The DM?

Well, sort of. The ST Regiment is a self-ruling organization, that seems to deploy its troops when and where it judges them best used.

Of course, the Space Marines themselves often function in the exact same way, and are most certainly not part of the IG or the Departmento Munitorum.