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gingermist wrote:Im saying if you move 7inches with the redpaint job you only count as moving 6 so if sumone assaults your wagon they will be hitting on fours not on 6s... I was confused about the unit inside the wagon. For example... Orks turn.. Wagon moves 7inches and fires a gun.... Tyranid turn... Genesneakers assault said wagon... They would hit on 4s becoz the wagon counts as moving 6inches.... Well just reading the red paint job rule.. It sez +1 to their movement but does not incur penalties for this extra inches. Fr example a vehicle could move 13 and STILL count as moving 12... So surely its discreational wheather you want it to count or not? Doesnt say you do not incur benefits for moving the extra inch?! Help? Because the players i face claim its a 4+ to hit but obviously im gunna want it to be a 6

It doesn't matter what you want, he is right. But remember that is a hit on the vehicle not on the unit inside

Yeah i get that.. That "was" in my previous message is a typo "wasn't" was ment to be there.. And thats cool i thought he was right when he said it then it cropped up so much in this thread i thought i should bring it up.... So everyones clear if you move 7inches your wagon can sustain hits on a roll of a 4+ and not a 6...

RJP means vehicles that move 6" +1" are hit on 6's.

RPJ allows the vehicle to move an additional 1" without incuring penalties.

When assaulting a vehicle, you measure the actual distance it moved, regardless of distance declared.

In this regard, a vehicle that moved more than 6" will count has having moved at Cruising speed (again, regardless of speed declared when moving), thus you would hit it on 6's.

It works the exact same way the other way around. Declare a skimmer is moving flat out, move it around in a circle, and it lands within 6" of where it started, you will still only need 4's to hit it, since the distance from where it began, and where it ended, is within 6".

EDIT: if this does actually start a debate, it should be moved to YMDC, no?

Kharrak is pretty much right on this. You do not, ever, declare a speed in WH40k.

You move any distance and then check what speed you went (combat, cruising, flat out). From that you determine how many weapons you may shoot, whether you may disembark or if a skimmer gets a cover save.
If you moved at all, you are hit on a 4+.
If you moved more than 6" passengers may not shoot and the vehicle is hit on 6+ in close combat.
None of those depend on the actual speed.
If you have RPJ you add 1" to your move and get no penalties for that. Being harder to hit in close combat is not a penalty.

I can't comment on the burnas, but I can on red paint. My comment is that some people here need to actually read their rulebook.

You hit a vehicle on a 4+ when the vehicle moved at combat speed. You hit them on a 6 when the vehicle moved at cruising speed. It does not matter how far you moved, it matters what class of movement you're using.

It doesn't matter if the vehicle moves 1" or 7", if it's moving at combat speed it's hit on a 4+, end of.

As for the burnas (okay, so I will comment on them), I'm usually a big hater on flame template weapons, but being able to throw down 15 at a time is ridiculous enough to make them seem cool. I mean, even if you only get two models under the template, that's still possibly 30 infantry models that are taken down. Power weapons an added plus.

Ailaros wrote:I can't comment on the burnas, but I can on red paint. My comment is that some people here need to actually read their rulebook.

You hit a vehicle on a 4+ when the vehicle moved at combat speed. You hit them on a 6 when the vehicle moved at cruising speed. It does not matter how far you moved, it matters what class of movement you're using.

It doesn't matter if the vehicle moves 1" or 7", if it's moving at combat speed it's hit on a 4+, end of.

It is not clear as that. The rule book says vehicles that move up to 6 inches are moving at combat speed. Then it goes to says on the assault vehicles that moved at combat speed speed in the previous turn are hit on a 4+. So for me it should be clear that the extra inch in the RPJ is still 4+. But a lot of people argue that you need a 6. Problem is then the rule says when assessing how far a vehicle has moved, only take into account the actual distance covered from its original position so you can argue you moved more than 6 inches and would be moving at cruising speed except you (ork vehicle) don't get the penalties for moving that extra inch but your opponent thus get it.

Ailaros wrote:I can't comment on the burnas, but I can on red paint. My comment is that some people here need to actually read their rulebook.

You hit a vehicle on a 4+ when the vehicle moved at combat speed. You hit them on a 6 when the vehicle moved at cruising speed. It does not matter how far you moved, it matters what class of movement you're using.

It doesn't matter if the vehicle moves 1" or 7", if it's moving at combat speed it's hit on a 4+, end of.

Except the rulebook explicitly says that you ignore the type of speed the owning player of the trukk declares - The assaulting player bases it entirely on how far the vehicle actually moved.

Thus a vehicle that moved less than 6" for any reason, REGARDLESS of speed you declare, is always hit it on 4+.

A vehicle that moved more than 6" for any reason, regardless of speed declared, is always hit on 6+.

Effectively, the assaulting unit uses it's own system to see what type of movement the vehicle used, independent of what the owner of the trukk declared, to determine what they need to hit.

This boils down to thus (not linked to the speed the owning player declared):

Vehicle did not move - automatic hit.

Vehicle moved up to 6" - combat speed - 4+

Vehicle moved more than 6" - cruising speed/Flat out - 6+

A vehicle that attempts to move at cruising speed, but stuns itself before moving, will be automatically hit.

A vehicle that declares it's moving flat out (to, say, perform a tank shock), and only moves 5", will be hit on 4+.

A vehicle that moves 8", but does so by moving backwards and forwads, eventually ending up within 2" of its starting position, is it on 4+.

As such, if a vehicle moves farther than 6" regardless of speed declared, is hit on 6+

Agreed, RPJ allows one to move 7 inches, making the enemy unit hit on 6s, but FOR THE ORK UN IT INSIDE THE VEHICLE, they count as only moving 6. Read the codex where it says "Ork vehicles with RPJ may add +1 inch to their movement with out incurring any penalties for this extra inch"

So all the Pros go to the Ork player, and the cons to the enemy. So ANYONE that is saying since for you, youre moving at whatever speed, so I get to hit on 4s, is doing it very wrong.

Yeah this is a definete two sided arguement... It does say "you do not incur penalties from this movement" it doesn't say anythin about the benefits of the extra inch.. Obviously all ork players are the ones saying its hits on sixs but the other arguement is very strong.. I might go and baffle the gamesworkshop guy and see what he thinks... He plays orks alot... Im counting he sez hits on 6s.. Man i hope they read these threads and sort it out next codex

You get benefits from moving 7" by default. In oder to not gain benefits, RPJ would have to explicitly say so in order to override the basic rules.

The could read this threads and sort them out next monday in the FAQs. Sadly, it seems the intern who updated their FAQs at the beginning of the year has already been fired.

Kharrak wrote: The assaulting player bases it entirely on how far the vehicle actually moved.

No it doesn't. The assaulting player bases it entirely on the class of movement that the vehicle made.

If the paint makes a vehicle able to move 7" and still be in combat speed, then people who attack the vehicle attack it using the rules for if it moved at combat speed. If it doesn't, it doesn't.

Either way, the player assaulting the vehicle explicitly doesn't care how many inches the vehicle moved, it only cares if it moved at cruising or combat speed.

Ailaros wrote:

Kharrak wrote: The assaulting player bases it entirely on how far the vehicle actually moved.

No it doesn't. The assaulting player bases it entirely on the class of movement that the vehicle made.

If the paint makes a vehicle able to move 7" and still be in combat speed, then people who attack the vehicle attack it using the rules for if it moved at combat speed. If it doesn't, it doesn't.

Either way, the player assaulting the vehicle explicitly doesn't care how many inches the vehicle moved, it only cares if it moved at cruising or combat speed.

To quote the rulebook:

Note: when assessing how far a vehicle has moved, only take into account the actual distance covered from the original position. Moving backwards and forwards or driving around in circles does not help!

You only ever take into account the actual distance covered, nothing else. As such, a player declaring their vehicle is moving at cruising speed, moving it around in a circle, and landing it 1" away from its start position will be hit on 4+, not 6+ due to the fact that it moved "flat out".

If a vehicle is less than 6" away from its starting position, it is counted as having moved at combat speed for CC attacks, regardless of how it moved to get there (ie, moving 12" in a circle). In the same way, if a vehicle is more than 6" away from its starting position, it is counted as having moved at cruising speed.

The speed declared by the owner of the vehicle has no effect. The distance from the vehicle's point of origin is what counts.

KingCracker wrote:S



Now to answer the important question. You dont want to do this. You want burnas in a battlewagon.

+1

Burnas are too expensive to be given a trukk, also battlewagons, especially those with dethrollers can really bunch up opponents units. Roll into the target and displaced the enemy off to one side all bunched up, then flame them and multiply the number of hits by the number of flamers. You will likely generate enough to wound and armour save dice that even termies are in trouble.

Kharrak wrote:The speed declared by the owner of the vehicle has no effect. The distance from the vehicle's point of origin is what counts.

Well, look, it all boils down to this. If the transport in question with red paint moved 7", does it count as moving at cruising speed, or combat speed?

If it counts as cruising speed, then the transport can only be hit on a 6 in close combat, but the burna boyz can't shoot out of the vehicle, as embarked units can't shoot out of their transport when the transport moves at cruising speed. If it counts as combat speed, the burnas can shoot out of the vehicle, but anybody that attacks the vehicle in close combat hits on a 4+, regardless of how far it chose to move while moving at combat speed.

Saying that both you can shoot out of the transport AND be only hit on 6's in return is against the rules.

Ailaros wrote:

Kharrak wrote:The speed declared by the owner of the vehicle has no effect. The distance from the vehicle's point of origin is what counts.

Well, look, it all boils down to this. If the transport in question with red paint moved 7", does it count as moving at cruising speed, or combat speed?

If it counts as cruising speed, then the transport can only be hit on a 6 in close combat, but the burna boyz can't shoot out of the vehicle, as embarked units can't shoot out of their transport when the transport moves at cruising speed. If it counts as combat speed, the burnas can shoot out of the vehicle, but anybody that attacks the vehicle in close combat hits on a 4+, regardless of how far it chose to move while moving at combat speed.

Saying that both you can shoot out of the transport AND be only hit on 6's in return is against the rules.

incorrect. it has been debated a thousad times and the way moving works it matters how far you moved...

basically a bw moves 7 inches. it moved cruising speed however due to red paint job it is treated as moving 6 inched for purposes of firing as it does not incur penalties for moving the extra inch... it still moved 7 inches but is "not penalized" for it... due to movement rules the vehicle moved over 6 so it did cruise the orks just still think they can shoot so they do

If you death roller a unit and bunch them to the side can the unit inside still fire? I was told by my opponent if i deathrolled a unit it is a tank shock move in which case the unit inside is too busy hanging on too fire.. A clearence on this would be good too. And are we agreeing if youve moved 7inches youve moved at combat speed then?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
.... And for the post above.. Its not that the orks think they can still shoot its that the trukk is going faster without them pushing it to... The red paint makes it faster whilst maintaining its "tight and accurate" ork handling ha

Ailaros wrote:Saying that both you can shoot out of the transport AND be only hit on 6's in return is against the rules.

If rule explicitly says so, it's not.

Not being able to shoot out of a transport is a penalty. Being hit on 6's is not. RPJ explicitly tells you to ignore penalties.

You are breaking a rule if you do not allow orks to shoot out of a red transport that moved 7", and you are also breaking a rule if you try to hit a vehicle that traveled more than 6" on a 4+, red paint or not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gingermist wrote:If you death roller a unit and bunch them to the side can the unit inside still fire? I was told by my opponent if i deathrolled a unit it is a tank shock move in which case the unit inside is too busy hanging on too fire.. A clearence on this would be good too. And are we agreeing if youve moved 7inches youve moved at combat speed then?

If you tank shock, less than 6"(7") passengers may still shoot as usual.

If you ram, passengers may never shoot.

I am happy to agree with the statement above... That makes total sense to me