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Crazyterran wrote:And, really, you are going to be throwing Terminators against harder targets, instead of tarpitting yourself against freaking Guardsmen, as your example provides.

And this is where I'm saying that you're missing the point. In a 1v1 can assault termies beat regular termies? Yes, yes they can. But let's start comparing them to other stuff.

When I play foot guard, a big majority of my models are in power blobs that are bubble wrapping everything else. If you're running assault termies, you're either getting tarpitted and then ground down by a guard blob, or they're not attacking anything. Blowing up a single land raider for a guard army isn't that tough, and the guys piling out inside aren't great either. Meanwhile, the regular termies have the option of shooting (including the stuff behind the blobs), and from such a distance that the power blobs can't get into close combat if I don't want them to.

When you play against DE, likewise the raider isn't THAT tough to take down with massed lance fire. Then you've got guys on foot who are going to struggle to catch anything at all in close combat. The regular termies are bringing guns with a lot of range, and venoms and raiders really don't like assault cannons.

When you play against a green tide list, all those sluggas and shootas are using regular attacks, which means the storm shields aren't helping that much. Yes, it will be tough for them to kill the raider, but this just means that the termies are hiding like a bunch of girls until there is a proper target for them to engage. The regular termies help thin out the hordes with shooting, and put down more orks in close combat.

Against tyranid, regular termies give you the ability to handle both the little ones AND the big ones, rather than just the big ones. Against parking lots, the termies give you the ability to pop open a couple of boxes before multiassaulting stuff. Heck, even against GK you're gaining the ability to thin down their numbers before they're in amongst your stuff.

Regular tactical terminators are better at a staggering variety of things you'll come across. The reason you bother with the storm shields is because there are some things in the game that are designed to eat marine armies for breakfast in close combat. Assault termies are a specialized unit to handle that specific, serious threat. Against most other units in the game, though, it's SM's patent versatility that wins out.

I'm actually going to try fielrding my space marines next weekend and am debating a try at the tac termies vs assault termies for a blood angels list

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/448182.page

having played against them I think it'll be a close call btu I'm goign the lower to 6 assault termies (3 ss/th, 3 lc) then sang priest in termy armor and librarian in termy armor in a LR crusader

as an ork/eldar playe ri wouldn't liek being on the side of either option

I play with 10 Tac termies with 2 cyclone missile launchers and lysander as a solid midfield core in my army. It's a nasty unit that people want to get rid of, and wich can soak up a lot. Sometimes I let lysander charge out of the unit to keep some assault baddies busy, so the termies can keep on shooting.

I'd say the CM's are the way to go, since the models still keep their stormbolters.

Regardless of which flavour you prefer, I don't suggest taking Terminators in a list below 2000pts.

I prefer Assault Terminators, they give Space Marines a hammer in close combat they otherwise wouldn't have. If you give them a ride, it's 500~pts in an opponents face.

And, if I'm fighting an Ork Horde or Guardsman Horde, I might charge the Orks to take away the bonus, since they are hitting on 4s / wounding on 5s. (really, that goes for both)

Assuming the Terminators Charge, A 30man power blob of guardsmen would get 27? normal attacks, 14 hits, 2.4~ wounds. 2+ save means you are going to nil from the Bayonets. (on average). Then the Terminators strike with the power fists on the Commisar/Sergeants, 3 per sergeant + the commissar, so 12 Power Fist Attacks, 6 hits, 5 wounds. 1/3 chance to fail a 3+ save, means 1 - 2 Terminators die. 15 attacks back, 12 hits, 10 dead.

The Terminators are probably going to lose, but this is also assuming no Guardsmen die before the Terminators get there. And that no Terminators die, etc. But really, against Orks/Guardsmen, if you have the choice, you should be taking Lightning Claw Terminators. Since Guardsmen are always in cover, having a CML or Assault Cannon is as magical and special to the Guardsmen as bolters are.

A 10man Tactical Terminator unit with 2 CMLs are 460pts. With Lysander, it's 660. 660pts for a unit that is foot slogging and using glorified bolters and either 2 Assault Cannons / 2 CML. That's half of a 1500pt army, or over a quarter of a 2000pt one.

My 2000pt army contains Assault Terminators w/ a LRC. my libby gets terminator armor + Shield, nullzone, and Gate of Infinity or the Avenger, depending on what I want that day. the LRC brings me up to 10 Vehicles, (or 7 tanks) and will have cover from either my Rhinos or my Vindicators.

Gives you an assault cannon that's harder to kill then a venerable dread since it's buffered by the other termies in the squad. (And for about the same price if the venerable dread has a drop pod.) Not only that, more attacks then a dread.

Someone mentioned it already, mid range fire support. They can move and shoot and pound with the assault cannon. If they get to you, not bad at close combat either.

sfshilo wrote:Gives you an assault cannon that's harder to kill then a venerable dread since it's buffered by the other termies in the squad.

True, but this is a little hazy. For basically the same price as 10 termies with two assault cannons, you could have three regular dreads with assault cannons in drop pods. The termies give you two more storm bolters, but 1 fewer assault cannon. You get a lot more power fist attacks with the termies, but the dreads' are S10, which sometimes matters. The termies offer WAY fewer kill points, but the dreads can attack more targets.

I think I'd probably take the termies in this case (being harder to kill), but in a drop pod list, those dreads would basically guarantee that I'd have the drop-pod assault turn one have the units that I actually want on the table turn 1 on the table.

Tactical Terminators combine quite nicely with a Gate librarian.

I find that two assault cannons really mess up T3 multiwound units. They're great for annihilating guard CCS, Eldar Warlock councils and other such groups, as the stormbolters kill the retinue then the cannons put down a high volume of instakill fire on the boss. Considering these units really give regular troops a considerable boost, getting rid of them in the first half of the game ensures that the rest of your army isn't bothered by psychic/ command systems. Equipping a couple of chainfists really messes with tanks as well.

Ailaros, you're making me want to tinker with getting Tac Termies from your points in this thread. The only issue I have with fielding them is that I'm getting a bunch of Storm Bolters, which I don't really need

AresX8 wrote:Ailaros, you're making me want to tinker with getting Tac Termies from your points in this thread. The only issue I have with fielding them is that I'm getting a bunch of Storm Bolters, which I don't really need

A bunch of storm bolters that can come in (usually) where ever you want, can shoot an assault cannon into some place, then can lay down some hurt when they can assault. (well, if they survive heavy fire, but then there is fire being directed away from some vindicators.)

I think tac termies have serious issues.

1. Their killing power vs mech is at best mediocre. 2 slow moving missiles per over 200p is the best you can get out of them
2. their killing power vs infantry is also mediocre (about 5 kills a turn agains GEQ in cover and 3-4 kills vs MEQ given that they all can shoot and they have assault cannons for over 400p)
3. if they get close, they are very vulnerable to tankshock+blast weapons stuff and battlepsyker attempts unless they are accompanied by a chap which makes them even more expensive
4. They are more expensive than TH/SS or LC termies because they have to pay for their heavy weapons
5. They are less effective in all assaults

Yes they can shoot at all but if you want to shoot lets take 2 defensive combat squads, they will match the firepower of a 5 man termisquad and are more durable. And they score.

-Nazdreg- wrote:1. Their killing power vs mech is at best mediocre. 2 slow moving missiles per over 200p is the best you can get out of them
2. their killing power vs infantry is also mediocre (about 5 kills a turn agains GEQ in cover and 3-4 kills vs MEQ given that they all can shoot and they have assault cannons for over 400p)

Yeah, their killing power per point isn't the absolute highest in the codex for sure (though, I'd note, THSS termies have even LESS killing power). They're a lot more durable, though, than other things (like speeders, for example). I think you've got to think of termies (of any type) more like guard russes and less like guard artillery. They do less damage per turn, but are much heartier, so survive to put damage out over more turns.

And yeah, the missiles aren't great. I'd take an assault cannon instead, a rending with a weapon with 4 shots can be a beast.

-Nazdreg- wrote:3. if they get close, they are very vulnerable to tankshock+blast weapons stuff and battlepsyker attempts unless they are accompanied by a chap which makes them even more expensive

Not any more than any other infantry unit in the codex.

-Nazdreg- wrote:4. They are more expensive than TH/SS or LC termies because they have to pay for their heavy weapons

But you have the option to take good ranged weapons, unlike the assault termies which are stuck with their loadout. The efficiency of upgrades makes them worthwhile (the increase in killing power per point spent on them increases, rather than decreases).

Otherwise, it would be like saying that penal legions are way better than infantry platoons, because infantry platoons have to pay for their upgrades. Doesn't change the fact that they're still better.

-Nazdreg- wrote:5. They are less effective in all assaults

What? They come with a 2+/5++ and everybody gets a power fist. Termies would murder tac squads in close combat, and kill pretty much anything else better in close combat as well.

AresX8 wrote:Ailaros, you're making me want to tinker with getting Tac Termies from your points in this thread. The only issue I have with fielding them is that I'm getting a bunch of Storm Bolters, which I don't really need

Alairos has this one correct I think. Seems to have the same philosophy as I do. I wrote a pretty comprehensive article on another site about tactical terminators.
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=229230

Don't forget tactical terminators can take chainfists... let's them hurt land raiders, and take out dreads with ease.

-Myst

Tactical marines are good only because they can shoot and really don't need or want a transport. (Why take a transport and not be able to shoot?) So if you have the terminators you can field 10 for about 460 points... Personnally I like the CSM better than the assault cannon. Why? Because they preserve the stormbolter, they have range, they are better against medium armored vehicles, and dropping 2 small blast templates provides hoard control.

In order to field 3 squads of 10 we are talking 1380 points so you are going to be limited in the rest of your army... Perhaps the old 1st and 10th army would work best... 3 squads of 10 terminators, 1 librarian (in terminator armor) and then scout squads of 5. Reserve the scouts, outflank with some of them, and try to use them to just plant the flag.

That is 60 S4 shots and 12 S8 shots each and every turn and the ability to reach out and touch an opponent at 24". Figure 27 wounds on an assault terminator... I don't care if they have a stormshield... that is an average of 4.5 dead terminators.

The problem with this setup is limited ability to take out a landraider or monolith. If that really worries you, then do assault cannons. Because they have the ability to rend, they can actually take out a landraider... Not likely but better than a krak missile.

If you want a slightly more effective list, perhaps lose one squad of 10 termies and convert it into landspeeders with MM or MM/HF or MM/MM. This should give you about 6 landspeeders and should provide all the anti-tank you need. Perhaps even a landspeeder storm or two so you can provide some mobility to your scout squads. You can also try to cover your anti-tank needs with a combi-melta on each scout sergent.

Ailaros wrote:

-Nazdreg- wrote:1. Their killing power vs mech is at best mediocre. 2 slow moving missiles per over 200p is the best you can get out of them
2. their killing power vs infantry is also mediocre (about 5 kills a turn agains GEQ in cover and 3-4 kills vs MEQ given that they all can shoot and they have assault cannons for over 400p)

Yeah, their killing power per point isn't the absolute highest in the codex for sure (though, I'd note, THSS termies have even LESS killing power). They're a lot more durable, though, than other things (like speeders, for example). I think you've got to think of termies (of any type) more like guard russes and less like guard artillery. They do less damage per turn, but are much heartier, so survive to put damage out over more turns.

And yeah, the missiles aren't great. I'd take an assault cannon instead, a rending with a weapon with 4 shots can be a beast.

-Nazdreg- wrote:3. if they get close, they are very vulnerable to tankshock+blast weapons stuff and battlepsyker attempts unless they are accompanied by a chap which makes them even more expensive

Not any more than any other infantry unit in the codex.

-Nazdreg- wrote:4. They are more expensive than TH/SS or LC termies because they have to pay for their heavy weapons

But you have the option to take good ranged weapons, unlike the assault termies which are stuck with their loadout. The efficiency of upgrades makes them worthwhile (the increase in killing power per point spent on them increases, rather than decreases).

Otherwise, it would be like saying that penal legions are way better than infantry platoons, because infantry platoons have to pay for their upgrades. Doesn't change the fact that they're still better.

-Nazdreg- wrote:5. They are less effective in all assaults

What? They come with a 2+/5++ and everybody gets a power fist. Termies would murder tac squads in close combat, and kill pretty much anything else better in close combat as well.

How do they have more Killing Power than a unit who's entire purpose is to barrel top speed towards an enemies lines inside a Land Raider? for the same points, you get a Land Raider and 5 Assault Terminators. If nothing else, Assault Terminators draw more fire away from the enemy, giving the rest of your army more room to maneuver. You combine the Land Raiders killing power + the TH/SS and I bet you get more out of it than Tactical Termies.

Paying for their heavy weapons is very important in a limited amount of points. And, really, saying Termies can murder tac squads isn't very impressive; anything can murder a tac squad.

Mysticaria wrote:http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=229230

Nice article.

Crazyterran wrote:How do they have more Killing Power than a unit who's entire purpose is to barrel top speed towards an enemies lines inside a Land Raider? for the same points, you get a Land Raider and 5 Assault Terminators.

For the points of 5 assault terminators and a land raider, you get 10 terminators. 5 assault terminators put down 15 power fist attacks on the charge. 10 tac terminators puts down 27 powerfist attacks and 3 power weapon attacks on the charge. Plus, the tac terminators can shoot storm bolters and assault cannons and then still charge, while the assault termies have no shooting options.

Per-point, tac terminators do roughly twice as much damage as assault termies, and can do damage in both shooting and assault. It's worth giving up half your killing power if that's what it takes to have a 3++ save if what you want is a 3++ save (in which there are certainly times that you do), but you have to sacrifice damage to take more durability per model.

Crazyterran wrote:Paying for their heavy weapons is very important in a limited amount of points.

This doesn't make any sense. Everything has a points cost, so spending points in a limited pool is not, in itself a bad thing. It's only bad to spend points if you're spending them on bad things. Being able to hose down a land raider that you started 30" away from is a good expendiature of points. You give them a lot more killing power for only a small increase in points. It's a good value, and thus a good choice to make.

DAaddict wrote:In order to field 3 squads of 10 we are talking 1380 points so you are going to be limited in the rest of your army... Perhaps the old 1st and 10th army would work best... 3 squads of 10 terminators, 1 librarian (in terminator armor) and then scout squads of 5. Reserve the scouts, outflank with some of them, and try to use them to just plant the flag.

So, here's where I have a conundrum. On the one hand, termies seem good. On the other hand, I've tabled all-termie armies before with guard. They really never seemed much of a challenge to face off against.

There must be something different in the way that they've been used against me versus how they should be used that explains the difference.

Against an army that has more AP2 and 1 weapons than he has models?

Terminator armies will suffer under those conditions.

Ailaros wrote:

Mysticaria wrote:http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=229230

Nice article.

Crazyterran wrote:How do they have more Killing Power than a unit who's entire purpose is to barrel top speed towards an enemies lines inside a Land Raider? for the same points, you get a Land Raider and 5 Assault Terminators.

For the points of 5 assault terminators and a land raider, you get 10 terminators. 5 assault terminators put down 15 power fist attacks on the charge. 10 tac terminators puts down 27 powerfist attacks and 3 power weapon attacks on the charge. Plus, the tac terminators can shoot storm bolters and assault cannons and then still charge, while the assault termies have no shooting options.

Per-point, tac terminators do roughly twice as much damage as assault termies, and can do damage in both shooting and assault. It's worth giving up half your killing power if that's what it takes to have a 3++ save if what you want is a 3++ save (in which there are certainly times that you do), but you have to sacrifice damage to take more durability per model.

Crazyterran wrote:Paying for their heavy weapons is very important in a limited amount of points.

This doesn't make any sense. Everything has a points cost, so spending points in a limited pool is not, in itself a bad thing. It's only bad to spend points if you're spending them on bad things. Being able to hose down a land raider that you started 30" away from is a good expendiature of points. You give them a lot more killing power for only a small increase in points. It's a good value, and thus a good choice to make.

DAaddict wrote:In order to field 3 squads of 10 we are talking 1380 points so you are going to be limited in the rest of your army... Perhaps the old 1st and 10th army would work best... 3 squads of 10 terminators, 1 librarian (in terminator armor) and then scout squads of 5. Reserve the scouts, outflank with some of them, and try to use them to just plant the flag.

So, here's where I have a conundrum. On the one hand, termies seem good. On the other hand, I've tabled all-termie armies before with guard. They really never seemed much of a challenge to face off against.

There must be something different in the way that they've been used against me versus how they should be used that explains the difference.

Tactical Terminators are never going to get across a field to charge. Since they go without a Land Raider in a group of 10, they are a slow moving pair of Assault Cannons or pair of CML. A pair of Assault Cannons might be able to get some shots off on a Land Raider, but you get 8. 2/3s of those hit, then 1/6 rend, then 2/3 of the rends will touch the armor. So, chances are, by the time you actually get through the armor with those Assault Cannons, he's shot back, in your face with the Assault Terminators, and gone to town. Assault Terminators in a Land Raider still have a ranged response. And, in a 2000pt game, where you might actually take Terminators, in my list, for example, there's going to be Rhinos giving it cover. (Vindicators in a vanilla marines list can't keep up, sadly. :( )

You'd have, at most, two rounds of shooting at the Land Raider to stop it before it can unload. If you get lucky and manage to stop it, great. If not, it's going to fire it's Assault Cannon back at you, and then move 6" closer, drop the Assault Termies 2" out from the hatches (really, with the edge of the base just touching the 2" zone, it's like 3".), fire it's hurricane bolters + assault cannon at you, then charge with the termies. Heck, even if you where smart and move back again, it's another set of Assault Cannon shots, and then you get charged.

Anyways, have you actually used Terminators, or is this all paper? If I remember right, you play blob guard, and aren't a fan of transports, but it really does matter when you are using magical things like Terminators which attract the fire of everything on Turn One. If someone sees 10 tactical terminators toting Assault Cannons, he's going to shoot the hell out of it from afar. You could keep them in reserves to keep them safe until someone gets closer, or you could deepstrike them. But, as soon as you Deep Strike, you have 10 medium based models dropping somewhere on the board. That's a huge footprint.

However, that being said, I might try running some Tactical Terminators when I get the cash to pick 10 up. It'll give me a chance to use these fancy magnets I got, and a change of pace for my 2000pt list. Maybe I'm undervaluing their storm bolters, because, you can get a pair of (twin linked) Assault Cannons for 80pts on a pair of Razorbacks, or a CML for 90 on a Landspeeder platform. (and you get a snazzy Heavy Bolter to go with it!) You've at least given me something to think about. I have mainly used my Assault Terminators as a unit to disrupt enemy lines, the infinite joy of making everything that doesn't get ID'd Initiative 1and, to give them something scary to shoot at. Either they can shoot at the Land Raider with the Termies in it, or the Vindicators, or my Land Speeders...

Anyways, it's something I'll try out. Until then, I still say that my Assault Terminators, while lacking some of the flexibility, are the better choice overall.

Tactical Terminators are never going to get across a field to charge. Since they go without a Land Raider in a group of 10, they are a slow moving pair of Assault Cannons or pair of CML

. If someone sees 10 tactical terminators toting Assault Cannons, he's going to shoot the hell out of it from afar. You could keep them in reserves to keep them safe until someone gets closer, or you could deepstrike them. But, as soon as you Deep Strike, you have 10 medium based models dropping somewhere on the board. That's a huge footprint. .

Does no one use scouts or drop pods with locator beacons? Anyone?

Terminators are just not the type of thing that you can throw into any list, you have to preplan with them a bit. Assault terminators are fire and forget, because they take literally no thought at all.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Tactical Terminators are never going to get across a field to charge. Since they go without a Land Raider in a group of 10, they are a slow moving pair of Assault Cannons or pair of CML

. If someone sees 10 tactical terminators toting Assault Cannons, he's going to shoot the hell out of it from afar. You could keep them in reserves to keep them safe until someone gets closer, or you could deepstrike them. But, as soon as you Deep Strike, you have 10 medium based models dropping somewhere on the board. That's a huge footprint. .

Does no one use scouts or drop pods with locator beacons? Anyone?

Terminators are just not the type of thing that you can throw into any list, you have to preplan with them a bit. Assault terminators are fire and forget, because they take literally no thought at all.

I don't think Deep Striking Terminators with 10 guys would be a good idea regardless of beacons or not. Just me, of course.

Crazyterran wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Tactical Terminators are never going to get across a field to charge. Since they go without a Land Raider in a group of 10, they are a slow moving pair of Assault Cannons or pair of CML

. If someone sees 10 tactical terminators toting Assault Cannons, he's going to shoot the hell out of it from afar. You could keep them in reserves to keep them safe until someone gets closer, or you could deepstrike them. But, as soon as you Deep Strike, you have 10 medium based models dropping somewhere on the board. That's a huge footprint. .

Does no one use scouts or drop pods with locator beacons? Anyone?

Terminators are just not the type of thing that you can throw into any list, you have to preplan with them a bit. Assault terminators are fire and forget, because they take literally no thought at all.

I don't think Deep Striking Terminators with 10 guys would be a good idea regardless of beacons or not. Just me, of course.

i wouldn't either, I would prefer Two 5 man squads personally.

Of course I play Deathwing, so I get the best of both worlds, but I do play vanilla from time to time

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Against an army that has more AP2 and 1 weapons than he has models?

Terminator armies will suffer under those conditions.

Yes if your list cannot handle that kind of shooting you will have some problems. But IG isn't exactly a rare thing to face so you should expect to play against them and change your list appropriately.

Crazyterran wrote:
Tactical Terminators are never going to get across a field to charge. Since they go without a Land Raider in a group of 10, they are a slow moving pair of Assault Cannons or pair of CML.

Ok it's nice to start of with some assumptions here. They are definitely not going to deepstrike (I mean, YOU don't like the idea of them deepstriking, so no one ELSE is ever going to, amiriteorwhatguys?), and be a "slow" assault cannon. What's a fast assault cannon, or a "normal" speed assault cannon?
The way I see it, there's one unit in the C:SM codex that moves MORE than 6" (the movement of a terminator!) and still shoots an assault cannon. This unit is a speeder. Your dreadnought is gonna move 6" and shoot. Your predator is going to move 6" and shoot. Your Vindicator is going to move (surprise!) 6" and shoot. So wouldn't 6" be your "average" moving pair of assault cannons, not "slow"? I mean, we're playing marines here, not eldar!
Secondly,

Crazyterran wrote:Anyways, have you actually used Terminators, or is this all paper? If I remember right, you play blob guard, and aren't a fan of transports, but it really does matter when you are using magical things like Terminators which attract the fire of everything on Turn One. If someone sees 10 tactical terminators toting Assault Cannons, he's going to shoot the hell out of it from afar.

...and? My most highly armored unit absorbing fire on turn 1? It's likely to not be small arms fire, therefore its medium to big guns that are not pointing at the rest of my army, which surprisingly enough is going to do ALOT more damage in the first two turns than. Please plough my terminators with everything you've got. I'd rather plasma camp the terminators and take down the Typhoons, the dreads, the preds, open up the rhino's. Gives the terminators two choices- let the rest of their army get shot to pieces whilst they shoot small arms and an pair of AC's, which is going to do so much, or step forward and get served piping hot plasma once they leave cover.
Please plough into my terminators on turn one. I likes it

Crazyterran wrote:However, that being said, I might try running some Tactical Terminators when I get the cash to pick 10 up. It'll give me a chance to use these fancy magnets I got, and a change of pace for my 2000pt list. Maybe I'm undervaluing their storm bolters, because, you can get a pair of (twin linked) Assault Cannons for 80pts on a pair of Razorbacks, or a CML for 90 on a Landspeeder platform. (and you get a snazzy Heavy Bolter to go with it!)

Proxy before you buy?
Also, a SB has a 24" range. Most people are a bit meh on this, but you've got to keep in mind 24" ain't bad! 30" when you take in movement, and if you deploy in a pitched battle the zones are exactly 24" apart- if they are within 6" of their deployment edge, they are within SB range

Right. Tac termies boil down to a role similar to ogryn in a guard list. Centrally (or appropriately) placed, they can threaten pretty much every unit in the game in either shooting or close combat in an uncomfortably large threat range. This makes them a threat. Being durable means that they can take that threat on the chin.

What this means for the rest of your list is that your opponents are going to have some uncomfortable choices to make in their shooting phase. To use the ogryn as an example again, either you shoot at the ogryn and let the HWSs keep shooting while the blobs charge, or you shoot the HWSs and deal with a major CC headache on turn 3, or you ignore the ogryn and shoot at the blobs and HWSs and on turn 3 you get to learn what the phrase "ogryn surprise" means.

Terminators are like that. It feels disappointing shooting lascannons at them, but if you don't, then you're going to get way, way too many angry powerfists and assault cannons up in your face mid-game. If you do, then what's stopping the speeders, preds, and dreads from just having their way? The same is true for foot lists. You don't want to have to shoot your plasma guns at them because they're going to take invul saves while those juicy, juicy tac squads over there aren't. Of course, if you pick off the easier targets, you get to learn what "terminator surprise" is...

That's really the thing with tactical terminators (like SM in general). It's not about their up-front quality (which like most things in the SM codex isn't that great), but it's about the options. Tactical termies may not be guaranteed to be better at something that whatever any other unit is good against, but they are guaranteed to be better at two or three things that said other unit has little capability in. Moreso than a lot of other units (even perhaps in the entire game, and certainly more than assault termies), they allow you to use player skill to do what your opponent doesn't want done to them. Being able to always exploit weaknesses on a durable platform sounds pretty nifty to me.

The problem with deep striking (with or without locator beacons) and regular tactical terminators is do you really want to get them close? The magic distance for tactical termies is 12" to 24" that is where your stormbolters can shred an opponent but not where they can assault you.

I run a loganwing - certain advantages - chief among them is having combi-meltas. However the same principle applies. Keep them tight and together and you have a good chance of winning. Drop them in piecemeal and die/lose. A landraider and assault termies is - to me a gamble. Sure it is awesome in HTH but that delivery is dependent on that landraider surviving. A lucky lascannon shot or a rushing scout landspeeder storm and it could be 250+ points of smoking wreck landraider and 200 points of picking-their-butts assault terminators that have no close target and have to hump it across the board. While tactical terminators will not shine as much as successfully delivered assault termies, it can provide a solid firebase. Having 30 termies on the board, means you have solid protection against all standard AP3+ fire. The issue is having disciplined fire control and proper spacing (so you don't get mashed by a demolisher cannon or the like). You are going to be able to only shoot 3 different targets each turn. While you will cause a lot of damage, you cannot take pot shots for luck. You have to take shots that matter.

There are bad matchups though and you pointed out one of them.. IG tank parkinglot. AV 14 os hard to effect and the nasty plasma cannons and demolisher cannons will cause a lot of hurt.
My choice would be to slowly advance picking off any chimera chassis he has and denude him of troops. (Vendettas #1 but chimera chassis #2 because CSM can affect AV12.)

As I stated I would look at a 1st and 10th with some landspeeders to handle the heavy tanks and the hoards...

Say 20 Termies, 3+ Typhoons with MM. a librarian and then 3+ scout squads in reserve. 30 termies would be impressive but it is totally rock/paper/scissors and there is a lot of paper out there to hand the rock of 30 terminators.

DAaddict wrote:The problem with deep striking (with or without locator beacons) and regular tactical terminators is do you really want to get them close? The magic distance for tactical termies is 12" to 24" that is where your stormbolters can shred an opponent but not where they can assault you.

Right. A big majority of the time you're going to want them to be at mid-range. Outside of too many shots from small arms, but close enough to use it's over-ranged small arms and upgrade weapons of its own.

Once again, though, this is about options. Even if most of the time you're going to want to stand off, that doesnt' mean that every time you're going to want to do this. Perhaps you're playing a guard player who only left a couple of weak units on their objective and sent everything else after yours. If only you had some way to deepstrike and clean off the rabble and claim the objective. Perhaps you're playing a nob biker list and your opponent splits everything into two groups and starts out on opposite sides of the board and then converges everything on your stuff. If only there were a way where you could pick off what winds up being the weaker branch after your first turn of shooting at them. Conversely, if only there were a way of getting in the stronger group's way while the tac squads finish off everything else. What if you're playing against tyranid, and that damn tervigon just won't friggin roll doubles. If only there was some way you could get to it's hiding place behind cover without having to wade through all the little ones.

Yes, most of the time you won't want to deepstrike in close to something, but that doesn't mean that you'll NEVER want to have that option.

I rather like my Deathwing squad with heavy flamer and DA Librarian. That squad likes getting close to things

I think tac terminators are ok, but I always get a little depressed when I look at grey knights (but really who doesn't). For 10 points less i can have an identically equipped squad, but the 2 assault cannons have +1 strength (psycannons), hammerhand (so strength 10 daemon hammers), and the Sargent gets a 4+ invulnerable in close combat. And they have grenades. Plus you can customize to be obviously a better build (a few halberds over daemon hammers etc.) :(


... and I forgot the biggest part, they are scoring!

Let's pretend that Grey Knights don't exist, because anything compared to Grey Knights is going to be underpowered, overpriced or both.

The assault terminator gives a marine army something it doesn't have anywhere else. A close combat beatstick for a reasonable price.

The tactical terminator gives the marine army more of what it already has, bolter and missile launcher (and assault cannon) shots. However, because you also pay for their acceptable (not fantastic, but acceptable) close combat ability they are a more expensive source of bolter and missile shots. That said, they are not terrible. 235 points gives you five storm bolters (10 shots) and a two shot missile launcher (2 shots) and a chainfist (almost a close combat meltagun). That's on five models with a 2+/5++ save. They also have two power weapon and eight power fist equivalent attacks in melee.

That said, a tactical squad gives you ten bolter shots (including the Rhino), a flamer shot, and a single missile shot for 205 points.

If you could make tactical terminators troops (through the addition of a terminator captain) then they would be a comparable alternative to the tactical squad. Their biggest problem is their immediate comparison to the assault terminator, which is more durable for holding up units in close combat.

It''s funny to see how underestimated the tac termies are by most players. Combining 10 tactermies with a lot of high AV armor makes it hard for your opponent to decide what to shoot. Guns that hurt the terminators decently(lascannon, meltaguns, dark lance etc.) are also their best bet against your predators and dreads.

And assault terminators are way more easy to stop from being effective than tactical terminators. Shoot 3-4 meltashots at their landraider, and they can be avoided EASILY. Shooting 3-4 guns at the tac termies doenst really do much. Especially not with Lysander in the squad who takes the single AP 1-2 shots on his shield.

Since the tac termies can do a lot of shooting before they charge, they WILL murder anything they charge. Only some matchups cost them too many bodies to do so. But they will get rid of that scary deathstar if you need them to. Once again, especially when you add Lysander t their ranks.

When I first started 40k, all my friends were underestimating the tac termies so much that I didnt even want to field them(listening to their advice and logic). After seeing the lysander+10 tac termies with 2 CML's combo and fielding that regularly, I have changed their oppinion completely. It is their most hated unit in my army. They have changed their lists considerably to counter my unit. But since the tac termies have such a flexible role, they can usually dodge any dangers your opponent wants to throw at them.

Their only worry is MASS long range shooting. But they will soak it like they are made to, and the rest of your army will love them for it. Any other danger is easily avoided:

ELITE ASSAULT UNIT:
Outrange them and shoot them to weaken them. Charge them when they are weakend. Or just charge Lysander at them by himself to preserve your termniators.
MASS PLASMA:
Give them cover with expendable units(scouts, or scout bikes).
Or stay out of range, you can easily outrange their fast fire.
VINDICATORS:
Stay out of range, your CML's outrange them. Vindicators are easy to kill or disable if you have some preds and landspeeders in your army.