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I don't seem to see many (any?) competitive lists with tactical terminators.

What is it about tactical terminators that keep people from using them?

Jebusiah Long wrote:I don't seem to see many (any?) competitive lists with tactical terminators.

What is it about tactical terminators that keep people from using them?

Lack of 3+Inv Storm Shields?

Ding! We have a winner!

When I have played regular SM (I have GK) I do like the options of Cyclone launchers and assault cannons. They can make for a light Anti-vehicle squad. Unfortunately, other things do this just as well for fewer points.

Mainly because there are a lot of unimaginative builds out there. A Land Raider can help with those missing 3++ saves, and Dark Angels are fun because we can throw in a storm shield/thunder hammer or two into any squad we take.

The shooting is not worth it on the unit (a Cyclone and 4 Storm Bolters is underwhelming for the cost). They are less resilient in CC due to the lack of SS and less likely to get swings with their Power Fists.

Dark Angels are another story (so are BT) because you can take better advantage of the cyclone and DA can mix in some SS to mitigate this issue.

its not that tactical terminators are bad, in fact fo rthe points you get quite a good model with good options and abilities, they really are a jack of all trades unit that works... shoot well assault well, great armor save with a inv save. options for cyclone missiles they are quie the generalist done right...

it is jsut assault termies are so much better, you sacrifice shooting and get a cc monster unit that can go toes to toe with almost anythign imaginable. and the land raider is the perfect delivery system av14 all around with assault ramps so they are never exposed to low ap fire until after they've usually destroyed something., and even then the 3++ means 2/3 of the ap1/2 shots and power weapon wounds don't matter

People in general don't understand how mid-range shooting works in 40k. I myself only sort of bother, preferring to ignore all the vagaries in favor of close combat, and there are a lot of mech commanders that don't really have the knack for it without the extra 6" that a transport gives. Regular termies fit in this difficult-to-use group.

Assault termies are straightforward - you put them in a raider and then crash them into something. Easy peasy. Making use of units that have a 30" double-tap bolter and assault cannon threat range that can also be used to beat face in close combat requires much more nuance on the field.

I see shooty termies as the ogryn of the space marine list. They're basically a concentrated basic troops choice that takes a degree of thought to use them right, and don't have a place in all lists.

it's not that tacitcals are bad. The fact of the matter is assault tyerminators are really that good.

if you wanna have fun and you are playing an army which can't kill your termies easily in assault. Put 5 terminators wiht lightning claws and a chaplain in a Land Raider. Get within Assault Range. Attack. throw confetti to show what their bodies look like post attack.

Ailaros wrote:
I see shooty termies as the ogryn of the space marine list. They're basically a concentrated basic troops choice that takes a degree of thought to use them right, and don't have a place in all lists.

And that's really the thing: Why use something that takes some talent, luck, and circumstance, when you could just take something that's always good?

I mean, I guess it gets you 'finesse points' or something. Now if Tactical Terminators could take two CMLs, then maybe it'd be a different story.

daedalus wrote:And that's really the thing: Why use something that takes some talent, luck, and circumstance, when you could just take something that's always good?

Basically.

I would note, though, in addition to what I said before, that tactical terminators are actually the killiest option out there.

I mean, let's say that you're looking at fighting against a tervigon (in such a way where you've got a way to handle the little critters). The THSS squad spends a turn getting closer, and then a turn getting closer and charging, putting down 6 wounds. A LC squad spends a turn getting closer, and a turn getting closer and charging for 3.3 wounds. A tac termie squad with an assault cannon moves closer and shoots for 1 wound, then moves closer and shoots for another wound and then charges, putting down 6 more wounds for a total of 8. Furthermore, a tac termie squad has a 30" full threat range with its guns, which means that every turn it's not in close combat, it's raining fire down on something (including bailing out other stuff nearby, but not in charge range), while a THSS squad only does damage in close combat, which is only likely one or two turns in a game.

Basically, tac termies are for people who want the most damage output, willing to toss the storm shield in favor for storm bolters and an assault cannon or cyclone launcher. More of a glass cannon termie loadout.

Also, I'd note that 10 termies with a pair of assault cannons costs the same as 5 THSS termies in a land raider. While the raider termies are probably more durable (although not THAT much so), the tac termies have way, way more killing power. Not only in general, but especially against hordes, which THSS termies basically bonk against.

I fear tac termies more then thss. The tac tremors are more flexible and thus less predictable. And they do more damage to my blobs before they assualt. Thss are straight forward and thus i know almost exactly what their gonna do.

Thanks much.

I bought a previously painted army and (after a lot of fun with chemicals) have 30+ painted/paintable terminators and bits to make 10 of whatever specific load-out I want due to the liberal use of magnets.

Is there a situation where I would want a squad of assault and a squad of tactical terminators?

Or is that too many points tied up in non-scoring units.

BTW, I currently running/building for vanilla but am seriously thinking of kitting out for a plays as BA list.

you'd have multiple death star units, but look into dark angels, then you can take some pretty cool mixed terminator armour lists and they are troops so you keep your elites slots. until recently I was going to do this due to how many terminators and dreds I have but ultimatly went with blood angels for the dreds being heavy and addition of fnp to assault squad sand fast rhinos made me decide BA looked fun... still if you have that many termies DA might be worth lookign into, I only didn't because I'd have needed alot more models (have 15 termies)

Jebusiah Long wrote:Is there a situation where I would want a squad of assault and a squad of tactical terminators?

Well, they serve two different roles. Having one has little bearing on what the second type should be (outside of the general fact that what you take should be based on what the rest of your list looks like).

Both types of termies are basically equally choppy, while the THSS gives up all possible killing in the shooting phase in order to be better against dedicated anti-terminator weapons. You take the regular termies when you want a unit that provides fire support for the rest of your army, while you take THSS to basically be a linebacker - getting in the way of stuff that would otherwise seriously damage the rest of your army.

I need to add a question myself, I apologize if thats rude or not.

What would be better for tactical terminators? the Cyclone launcher or the assault cannon?

4 strength 6 ap 4 rending shots or 2 frag missles and 2 kraks?

And I mean most killing power for the 30 points

An assault cannon is better for everything in every way except that it's shorter ranged (well, and against AV11 and REALLY packed together infantry). Given that the termies can deepstrike and have relentless, I see this as less of an issue.

I know people like to take cyclones as plinkers, though, but over 200 points for a pair of backfield plinkers seems somewhat steep to me.

Ailaros wrote:An assault cannon is better for everything in every way except that it's shorter ranged (well, and against AV11 and REALLY packed together infantry). Given that the termies can deepstrike and have relentless, I see this as less of an issue.

I know people like to take cyclones as plinkers, though, but over 200 points for a pair of backfield plinkers seems somewhat steep to me.

yea, i can see the overcost of something you can get for 90pts in a F/A slot. although for the deep striking I consistantly got them teleported right into a rock.

yet another question, possibly a very stupid one: for a fun list, would lysander fit in with 10 of those guys? all those re-rolls, his demi-godhammer, a 3++ eternal warrior sounds pretty fun.

If I were to take Tac Terminators(Vanilla Codex), I'd probably field a full 10 man unit with 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers and maybe Lysander for Bolter Drill. And give them a LRR to ride up in.

I kind of see them as a fire magnet that can take some punishment and pop armor at range and in CC(if they happen to catch something) and cut down infantry with rerolling Storm Bolters. It's a point sink and possibily a waste of resources, but I'd want to make my opponent choose between focusing on the Termies or trying to take care of what I'm rolling up the sides(Vindicators, pretty big threat)/Drop Podding in their face(Flamer/MM Tac Squads and MM Dreds, decent threat).

They probably won't last long against really good CC units. On the other hand, it is a unit with 9 Power Fists and 2+5++ saves. Either they'll tarpit em' down or get jacked up and fall back and dump more shots into whatever it was.

The last time I saw tactical terminators used well was against a hybrid IG army, where the IG player pushed an early advantage and advanced on the left flank and the center. The SM player dropped 10 tac terminators on the right flank, and the guard player was forced to choose what his midfield elements were to do- hold the ground they just took (and the objectives too) against the SM line, or try to engage the terminators and lose ground and let the terminators eat up their backfield.

TH/SS terms are more of a front-line unit, the tac terminators have had their best games (in my experience) as a behind enemy lines unit. There's too much plasma and power weapons up front, and that is whats needed to shift the terminators, so it forces your opponent to split or go for one element, your line or your rock behind their line.

The difficulty of being able to pull off a teleportation behind enemy lines reliably each game is what kills this for tac terminators, and they are arguably harder to use. Their flexibility is their pro and con- they can't assault or take assaults against dedicated CC units terribly well because of their 5++ and I1 powerfists, but if they charge into an ongoing melee, 12 power fist and 3 P.weapon attacks can lay down some hurt!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

beigeknight wrote:If I were to take Tac Terminators(Vanilla Codex), I'd probably field a full 10 man unit with 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers and maybe Lysander for Bolter Drill. And give them a LRR to ride up in.

I dont think the LRR has a carrying capacity of 22...

Jihallah wrote:The last time I saw tactical terminators used well was against a hybrid IG army, where the IG player pushed an early advantage and advanced on the left flank and the center. The SM player dropped 10 tac terminators on the right flank, and the guard player was forced to choose what his midfield elements were to do- hold the ground they just took (and the objectives too) against the SM line, or try to engage the terminators and lose ground and let the terminators eat up their backfield.

TH/SS terms are more of a front-line unit, the tac terminators have had their best games (in my experience) as a behind enemy lines unit. There's too much plasma and power weapons up front, and that is whats needed to shift the terminators, so it forces your opponent to split or go for one element, your line or your rock behind their line.

The difficulty of being able to pull off a teleportation behind enemy lines reliably each game is what kills this for tac terminators, and they are arguably harder to use. Their flexibility is their pro and con- they can't assault or take assaults against dedicated CC units terribly well because of their 5++ and I1 powerfists, but if they charge into an ongoing melee, 12 power fist and 3 P.weapon attacks can lay down some hurt!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

beigeknight wrote:If I were to take Tac Terminators(Vanilla Codex), I'd probably field a full 10 man unit with 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers and maybe Lysander for Bolter Drill. And give them a LRR to ride up in.

I dont think the LRR has a carrying capacity of 22...

They in fact dont. the the land raider crusader can hold 8 terminators though, but that begs the question, why put them in one? Your wasteing their expensive special weapons and shooting unti before you assault. imho, crusaders are better for the assault terminators and whoever is riding along with them.


thats pretty good example of what they can be good at. I think they are best for beaking apart the artillery/ heavies sitting in the back. Teleport in, provide some dakka, and maybe getting whipped off the board.

A drop pod with a locator beacon and maybe a dreadnaught can provide a good foothold for them.

Now I really want to make a Terminator list, maybe taking sniper scouts with teleporter homers and infiltrating them close so the terminators can get closer. Cato's infiltrate can put some tactical marines down the field so they can teleport in.

Although I'm probably thinking all wrong of this kind of list. if so please correct me.

Better idea: Deathwing. Best of both worlds (TH/SS and Cyclone launchers in the same squad). Plus you get Scout-moving Ravenwing Bikes with teleport homers and Deathwing Assault to make them drop more reliably.

Tiger9gamer wrote:thats pretty good example of what they can be good at. I think they are best for beaking apart the artillery/ heavies sitting in the back. Teleport in, provide some dakka, and maybe getting whipped off the board.

A drop pod with a locator beacon and maybe a dreadnaught can provide a good foothold for them.

I don't think you quite got the "behind enemy lines" idea. If you put a pod dread down, the enemy will spend more time in the backfield, less time in the midfield. You need to draw the enemy to the midfield, not tie him up in the backfield. THEN you drop down the terminators.


For the rest of the thread- YES WE ARE AWARE DEATHWING DOES IT BETTER.

Jihallah wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

beigeknight wrote:If I were to take Tac Terminators(Vanilla Codex), I'd probably field a full 10 man unit with 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers and maybe Lysander for Bolter Drill. And give them a LRR to ride up in.

I dont think the LRR has a carrying capacity of 22...

Doh, my bad. Not sure what I was thinking about there... I figured they'd just pile out first turn and start doing their thing(that's what I would do with them) so I guess they'd have to walk it anyways. That being the case I guess it would be best to teleport them but I don't feel great about waiting around for them to show up, although I could put Locator Beacons on the Drop Pods and shove them down some throats eventually.

Biggest problem I see is that bare bones, Tactical Termies don't hold a candle to Assault ones, and giving them the options that do make them more effective (cyclone missile launcher, assault cannon) make them too expensive.

Jihallah wrote:

beigeknight wrote:If I were to take Tac Terminators(Vanilla Codex), I'd probably field a full 10 man unit with 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers and maybe Lysander for Bolter Drill. And give them a LRR to ride up in.

I dont think the LRR has a carrying capacity of 22...

Even if it did, this doesn't make any sense. Cyclone missiles for something that goes in a transport? Bolter drill for something that's getting into close combat? Is the squad sitting back and shooting missiles, driving up a little bit and shooting bolters, or driving forward like crazy to flame stuff/get into close combat? Yes, I know they still retain the option to do any of these, but this is, what, like 1000 points? All for doing nothing terribly well.

Jihallah wrote:

Tiger9gamer wrote:thats pretty good example of what they can be good at. I think they are best for beaking apart the artillery/ heavies sitting in the back. Teleport in, provide some dakka, and maybe getting whipped off the board.

A drop pod with a locator beacon and maybe a dreadnaught can provide a good foothold for them.

I don't think you quite got the "behind enemy lines" idea. If you put a pod dread down, the enemy will spend more time in the backfield, less time in the midfield. You need to draw the enemy to the midfield, not tie him up in the backfield. THEN you drop down the terminators.

Yeah, in a way, they're sort of the king of harassment units. They do it so well, it's actually roughly worth taking.

They work outside of this, I'd like to think, though. Yeah, they're going to be best as bullies, but they also could work disruption like tiger gamer notes. Either you shoot that plasma at the termies, or you shoot it at all those tac marines or sternguard, etc. Also, with a 30" range, you could sort of keep them back behind stuff and bolter/cannon stuff and then countercharge as needed.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:Biggest problem I see is that bare bones, Tactical Termies don't hold a candle to Assault ones

What? Both THSS and tac termies have 2 S8 I1 power attacks, and both have a 2+. LCs can reroll to wound, but wounding on 2's is better in a lot of cases, even with the +1A for the claws.

I like storm shields as much as the next person, but to say that termies are worthless without them isn't fair. Against most weapons, you're taking your 2+ save, and regular termies can also take a 4+ cover save. Really, it's being able to be twice as hearty against power weapons and the like in close combat and against other specific anti-terminator weapons, but regular termies are able to do anything at all out of close combat.

Ailaros wrote:

Jihallah wrote:

beigeknight wrote:If I were to take Tac Terminators(Vanilla Codex), I'd probably field a full 10 man unit with 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers and maybe Lysander for Bolter Drill. And give them a LRR to ride up in.

I dont think the LRR has a carrying capacity of 22...

Even if it did, this doesn't make any sense. Cyclone missiles for something that goes in a transport? Bolter drill for something that's getting into close combat? Is the squad sitting back and shooting missiles, driving up a little bit and shooting bolters, or driving forward like crazy to flame stuff/get into close combat? Yes, I know they still retain the option to do any of these, but this is, what, like 1000 points? All for doing nothing terribly well.

Jihallah wrote:

Tiger9gamer wrote:thats pretty good example of what they can be good at. I think they are best for beaking apart the artillery/ heavies sitting in the back. Teleport in, provide some dakka, and maybe getting whipped off the board.

A drop pod with a locator beacon and maybe a dreadnaught can provide a good foothold for them.

I don't think you quite got the "behind enemy lines" idea. If you put a pod dread down, the enemy will spend more time in the backfield, less time in the midfield. You need to draw the enemy to the midfield, not tie him up in the backfield. THEN you drop down the terminators.

Yeah, in a way, they're sort of the king of harassment units. They do it so well, it's actually roughly worth taking.

They work outside of this, I'd like to think, though. Yeah, they're going to be best as bullies, but they also could work disruption like tiger gamer notes. Either you shoot that plasma at the termies, or you shoot it at all those tac marines or sternguard, etc. Also, with a 30" range, you could sort of keep them back behind stuff and bolter/cannon stuff and then countercharge as needed.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:Biggest problem I see is that bare bones, Tactical Termies don't hold a candle to Assault ones

What? Both THSS and tac termies have 2 S8 I1 power attacks, and both have a 2++. LCs can reroll to wound, but wounding on 2's is better in a lot of cases, even with the +1A for the claws.

I like storm shields as much as the next person, but to say that termies are worthless without them isn't fair. Against most weapons, you're taking your 2+ save, and regular termies can also take a 4+ cover save. Really, it's being able to be twice as hearty against power weapons and the like in close combat and against other specific anti-terminator weapons, but regular termies are able to do anything at all out of close combat.

Against most weapons in close combat, really, you are taking the 5++. Everything has power weapons now a days, especially if you face a certain metallic colored space marine army.

Bare bones of each, you get Close Combat Oriented TH/SSx5, or 4x Power Fist 1x Power Sword and 5 Stormbolters. Sure, the Stormbolters have a threat zone of 30" while TH/SS terminators only have one of 12", but Stormbolters are really glorified bolters. If you have to choose which to take at 200pts, I'd take the Assault Terminators.

with a bare LRC + the 5 termies, you can get 460pts worth of 10 Tactical Terminators. So, two Assault Cannons + 8 Stormbolters, 9 Power Fists, and a Power Sword, vs a LRC + 5 Terminators w/ THSS.

10 Termies w/ 16 Bolter Shots, 8 Assault Cannon Shots, 9 Power Fists, 1 Power Sword vs an AV14 Vehicle w/ Twin Linked Assault Cannon, 6 Twin Linked Bolters (6 bolter shots at 24", 12 at 12") and 5 TH/SS.

Seems pretty even to me, maybe even the edge going to the Assault Termies, since the Assault Termies can't be hurt until they get out, since, It's going to take some damn good rolls with those Assault Cannons to get through the LRC.

Crazyterran wrote:10 Termies w/ 16 Bolter Shots, 8 Assault Cannon Shots, 9 Power Fists, 1 Power Sword vs an AV14 Vehicle w/ Twin Linked Assault Cannon, 6 Twin Linked Bolters (6 bolter shots at 24", 12 at 12") and 5 TH/SS.

Seems pretty even to me, maybe even the edge going to the Assault Termies

Right, break that down again. The storm bolters and hurricane bolters are an even match, but the rest isn't. A twin-linked assault cannon gets, on average, 3 hits, while a pair of regular ones gets 5, and then you add in the fact that the shooty termies get twice as many attacks in close combat. In a 1v1 between the two, this may even out, but against most targets in the game, it won't.

Furthermore, a LR isn't THAT difficult to kill with an assault cannon. When it rends (1/6) it pens on a 5 or 6 (1/3). With 8 shots, you get a rending hit nearly every round of shooting. Plus, when you consider that chain stunning or an immobilized result is good enough, the termies aren't as hopeless against the raider as you think.

The storm shield is great, but it's not all-powerful. It allows a squad of terminators to handle things that are normally otherwise good against terminators. This can sometimes be very important. In a lot of cases, though, it isn't.

Especially...

Crazyterran wrote:Against most weapons in close combat, really, you are taking the 5++. Everything has power weapons now a days, especially if you face a certain metallic colored space marine army.

... if you're making strange statements like this. Grey knights aside, saying that "everything" or "most weapons" will ignore armor saves on termies is a gross overstatement. Dedicated CC units will put the hurt on regular termies in a way that they won't necessarily on assault termies, but what about everything else? I can say with confidence that I've killed way more termies with lasguns and bayonettes and autocannons than I ever did with power weapons or plasma guns or demolisher cannons. Weight of fire is still the best way to kill termies most of the time.

Yes, there are certain really tough bad guys that excel in throwing down a lot of high strength power attacks, and against those things, assault termies may well be your salvation. Against the regular stuff, though, storm shields are often a waste.

Crazyterran wrote:
with a bare LRC + the 5 termies, you can get 460pts worth of 10 Tactical Terminators. So, two Assault Cannons + 8 Stormbolters, 9 Power Fists, and a Power Sword, vs a LRC + 5 Terminators w/ THSS.

Welcome to the Terrordome I mean vacuum! Where we pit one unit against the other in a clash of mathematics! The winner to achieve glory in every internet copy+paste list, the loser to be scorned and never taken!

Place your bets, people! Place your bets!

Ailaros wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:10 Termies w/ 16 Bolter Shots, 8 Assault Cannon Shots, 9 Power Fists, 1 Power Sword vs an AV14 Vehicle w/ Twin Linked Assault Cannon, 6 Twin Linked Bolters (6 bolter shots at 24", 12 at 12") and 5 TH/SS.

Seems pretty even to me, maybe even the edge going to the Assault Termies

Right, break that down again. The storm bolters and hurricane bolters are an even match, but the rest isn't. A twin-linked assault cannon gets, on average, 3 hits, while a pair of regular ones gets 5, and then you add in the fact that the shooty termies get twice as many attacks in close combat. In a 1v1 between the two, this may even out, but against most targets in the game, it won't.

Furthermore, a LR isn't THAT difficult to kill with an assault cannon. When it rends (1/6) it pens on a 5 or 6 (1/3). With 8 shots, you get a rending hit nearly every round of shooting. Plus, when you consider that chain stunning or an immobilized result is good enough, the termies aren't as hopeless against the raider as you think.

The storm shield is great, but it's not all-powerful. It allows a squad of terminators to handle things that are normally otherwise good against terminators. This can sometimes be very important. In a lot of cases, though, it isn't.

Especially...

Crazyterran wrote:Against most weapons in close combat, really, you are taking the 5++. Everything has power weapons now a days, especially if you face a certain metallic colored space marine army.

... if you're making strange statements like this. Grey knights aside, saying that "everything" or "most weapons" will ignore armor saves on termies is a gross overstatement. Dedicated CC units will put the hurt on regular termies in a way that they won't necessarily on assault termies, but what about everything else? I can say with confidence that I've killed way more termies with lasguns and bayonettes and autocannons than I ever did with power weapons or plasma guns or demolisher cannons. Weight of fire is still the best way to kill termies most of the time.

Yes, there are certain really tough bad guys that excel in throwing down a lot of high strength power attacks, and against those things, assault termies may well be your salvation. Against the regular stuff, though, storm shields are often a waste.

Yes, an Assault Cannon can do the job, but, as you said, there's an average of 5 hits, with a chance of getting a six, and another chance of getting a 5 or 6. It's possible, but, chances are you aren't going to get through it's armor and stop it before you have Assault Terminators in your face. Hell, the Assault Terminators don't even have to dismount untill the Tactical Terminators are whittled down.

And, really, you are going to be throwing Terminators against harder targets, instead of tarpitting yourself against freaking Guardsmen, as your example provides. Sure, Tactical Terminators could be better against Guardsmen due to the fact that Guardsmen take plenty of Lascannons and guns to drown the opponent in gunfire, but, not all armies are guardsmen. Hammernators are great as a counter assault unit if you are fighting an army like Wolves, Grey Knights, Blood Angels, etc. or for soaking fire against other armies. Thunder Hammers are also better versus tanks, since, they get a free Shaken result for merely getting a glance or pen.

Also, the Assault terminators at 5 men w/ a LRC is 10 less points. Throw on a Multi Melta too, and go to town. Or extra armor, but it brings you 5pts over making the points even.

Welcome to the Terrordome I mean vacuum! Where we pit one unit against the other in a clash of mathematics! The winner to achieve glory in every internet copy+paste list, the loser to be scorned and never taken!

Place your bets, people! Place your bets!

I lol'd.

Jihallah wrote:

Tiger9gamer wrote:thats pretty good example of what they can be good at. I think they are best for beaking apart the artillery/ heavies sitting in the back. Teleport in, provide some dakka, and maybe getting whipped off the board.

A drop pod with a locator beacon and maybe a dreadnaught can provide a good foothold for them.

I don't think you quite got the "behind enemy lines" idea. If you put a pod dread down, the enemy will spend more time in the backfield, less time in the midfield. You need to draw the enemy to the midfield, not tie him up in the backfield. THEN you drop down the terminators.

Ah good point I guess this is what happens when a noobie gets into writing tactics. Although, If I played a game where an opponent dropped terminators and a dred, while having a couple vindicators moving forward on the other side, It may just be hard to choose which one to shoot. "lets see... do I want those vindicators to roll up and destroy my infantry? or do I want to stop those two units from charging my heavy squad and tanks." kind of what Ailaros said.

something else that may look good on paper for the 10 man tact terminator squad is at east one cyclone missile launcher. Although the assault cannon can provide more dakka up close, if you dont wanna deepstrike those guys in, they can walk across the board and shoot 2 missiles at things before getting in range to provide fire support.

Although, I may be talking out my here atm. It may be better to deepstrike things, but I have really bad luck with it most of the time.

Crazyterran wrote: Also, the Assault terminators at 5 men w/ a LRC is 10 less points. Throw on a Multi Melta too, and go to town. Or extra armor, but it brings you 5pts over making the points even.

Come on, when arn't you going to add a multi-melta on a LRC.