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I also think it varies from chapter to chapter. At least the legions had varying styles of H2H combat that they practiced with.

Potential spoiler for Deliverance Lost:

Whatever it is, it would be effective.

I imagine that it would be to cause maximum trauma or instant death without the use of much energy or exertion. Every move a killing blow. Only when fighting opponents of equal ability would you get a true technique shine through. Much like the battle between Praal and Lucius in Galaxy in Flames.

A technique would also possibly be modified depending on foes battled, like Lucius, again, fighting the Mega - Arachnid on Murder in Horus Rising.

But like's been said before the fighting style would vary between the Legion/Chapter.

Even marines within different legions/chapters had varying skilsl and styles.

it is mentioned in several books how this marine or this captain favoured one weaon over another or showed "a brutal effiicency" rather than a "delicate use of a blade".

i woudl guess that marines woudl receive the same basic training and woudl then develope their own personal styles over centuries of war.

Praxiss wrote:Even marines within different legions/chapters had varying skilsl and styles.

it is mentioned in several books how this marine or this captain favoured one weaon over another or showed "a brutal effiicency" rather than a "delicate use of a blade".

i woudl guess that marines woudl receive the same basic training and woudl then develope their own personal styles over centuries of war.

This. I'd say that this is the most likely outcome. Even with standardized basic training, after all that time you're going to get some variance in individual preferences.

VarguardObrien wrote:The full and complete Space Marine Hand-to-Hand Training Manual.

1. Do you have a close combat weapon such as a chainsword, power claws, power fist?
Yes: Use it to sword/klaw/fist the enemy into a bloody mist.
No: Proceed to step 2.

2. You have a bolter, then.
Yes: Use it to shoot your enemies until they're within arms reach.

3. Are they within arms reach?
Yes: Punch them in the face with your off hand while shooting from the hip with your bolter.

4. Are they dead?
Yes: Good job! Go kill more xenos and heretics for the Emprah!
No: Continue punching until they are!

This about sums up the basics

As above, it would depend upon the chapter and individual in question, basic techniques would be taught and the individual marines develop it with their own experiences and preferences.

I think people think about this stuff too much.

I would presume its just generic "unarmed combat" come guy developed (Gulliman?) because they aren't going to use Kung-Fu or Judo from 39,000 years in the past are they!

I mean, thats what elite soliders use now. feth all that Jackie Chan gak!

For example, in the RM they teach CQC (Close quarters combat) that was developed by Fairburn and Sykes, they developed it while working as bobbies in Shanghai and Its super badass, but nothing like anything you saw on the matrix. It typically consists of ripping peoples balls off and gouging their fething eyes out. Nothing fancy.. I remember from all the lessons, something to do with how enemies/hostages/civilians and such can be closely intermingled so they developed their own CQC which basically just consists of an extremely rapid assault and a precise application of lethal force. They also invented the commando dagger, and the style you use to kill with it. This thing..



Anyway, the point is, killers learn different gak to the stuff civvies get taught in Martial arts. Your not interested in defending yourself in a pub brawl, your after bursting peoples eyeballs, ripping their balls off and snapping their bones.

I figure that Gulliman would have developed an awesome version of CQC and wrote it all down. You know how he liked to do things by the book.

mattyrm wrote:I think people think about this stuff too much.

I would presume its just generic "unarmed combat" come guy developed (Gulliman?) because they aren't going to use Kung-Fu or Judo from 39,000 years in the past are they!

I mean, thats what elite soliders use now. feth all that Jackie Chan gak!

For example, in the RM they teach CQC (Close quarters combat) that was developed by Fairburn and Sykes, they developed it while working as bobbies in Shanghai and Its super badass, but nothing like anything you saw on the matrix. It typically consists of ripping peoples balls off and gouging their fething eyes out. Nothing fancy.. I remember from all the lessons, something to do with how enemies/hostages/civilians and such can be closely intermingled so they developed their own CQC which basically just consists of an extremely rapid assault and a precise application of lethal force. They also invented the commando dagger, and the style you use to kill with it. This thing..



Anyway, the point is, killers learn different gak to the stuff civvies get taught in Martial arts. Your not interested in defending yourself in a pub brawl, your after bursting peoples eyeballs, ripping their balls off and snapping their bones.

I figure that Gulliman would have developed an awesome version of CQC and wrote it all down. You know how he liked to do things by the book.

This. Nobody is talking about a whole Matrix, I know kung fu, dojo style hoplah. On a side-note, William E. Fairbairn is the most unappreciated hardass in human history.

TermiesInARaider wrote:

This. Nobody is talking about a whole Matrix, I know kung fu, dojo style hoplah. On a side-note, William E. Fairbairn is the most unappreciated hardass in human history.

Im impressed someone outside of the Royal Marines knows who he is! Although, I notice your flag.. did you get shown some of his stuff during some time in the IDF?

mattyrm wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:

This. Nobody is talking about a whole Matrix, I know kung fu, dojo style hoplah. On a side-note, William E. Fairbairn is the most unappreciated hardass in human history.

Im impressed someone outside of the Royal Marines knows who he is! Although, I notice your flag.. did you get shown some of his stuff during some time in the IDF?

Nah, I'm just here studying abroad for college. I am a bit of a self-defense buff, though, and I've read a few books about him.

TermiesInARaider wrote:

mattyrm wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:

This. Nobody is talking about a whole Matrix, I know kung fu, dojo style hoplah. On a side-note, William E. Fairbairn is the most unappreciated hardass in human history.

Im impressed someone outside of the Royal Marines knows who he is! Although, I notice your flag.. did you get shown some of his stuff during some time in the IDF?

Nah, I'm just here studying abroad for college. I am a bit of a self-defense buff, though, and I've read a few books about him.

Ah ok cool.. you must be well read!

Although, less cool than I thought, in my own mind you were in Mossad and you had once punched a suicide bombers lungs out.

mattyrm wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:

mattyrm wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:

This. Nobody is talking about a whole Matrix, I know kung fu, dojo style hoplah. On a side-note, William E. Fairbairn is the most unappreciated hardass in human history.

Im impressed someone outside of the Royal Marines knows who he is! Although, I notice your flag.. did you get shown some of his stuff during some time in the IDF?

Nah, I'm just here studying abroad for college. I am a bit of a self-defense buff, though, and I've read a few books about him.

Ah ok cool.. you must be well read!

Although, less cool than I thought, in my own mind you were in Mossad and you had once punched a suicide bombers lungs out.

Hah, no! I wish. The closest I've come to that is punching out a pair of dudes who were looking for more booze money.

Matty, Mr. Fairbairn recently got a badass of the week article which you might be interested in reading...
Potentially NSFW due to copious swearing

I did indeed read it, which is what prompted me to track down and read a book on him.

Back on topic, I think we can agree that the Space Marines would utilize some form of 'modern' combat system, similar to MCMAP, Krav Maga, Defendo, or one of their many derivations.

Tibbsy wrote:Matty, Mr. Fairbairn recently got a badass of the week article which you might be interested in reading...
Potentially NSFW due to copious swearing

I did find that interesting. Thanks!

I figured Bill was pretty unknown outside the RM.. shows what I know eh?

I've still got my commando dagger obviously.. and I always got my American counterparts one for a present when I worked with them for a lengthy period of time, so there will be plenty floating around in the States, just waiting to get jammed into a burglars jugular.

OT- As I said, I reckon it would be good fluff if Gulliman devised one and makes perfect sense. Surely he would have taught something and wrote it down? I read ATSKNF and he seems right on the ball.. practised with obscure weapons, taught the guys how to fight with all kinda of different things.. it would be cool to add something about it.

Ill write to Dan Abnett, he can introduce is, call it Gullimando or something.

I did find that interesting. Thanks!

I figured Bill was pretty unknown outside the RM.. shows what I know eh?

I've still got my commando dagger obviously.. and I always got my American counterparts one for a present when I worked with them for a lengthy period of time, so there will be plenty floating around in the States, just waiting to get jammed into a burglars jugular.

OT- As I said, I reckon it would be good fluff if Gulliman devised one and makes perfect sense. Surely he would have taught something and wrote it down? I read ATSKNF and he seems right on the ball.. practised with obscure weapons, taught the guys how to fight with all kinda of different things.. it would be cool to add something about it.

Ill write to Dan Abnett, he can introduce is, call it Gullimando or something.

I wanna thank you personally for serving. I don't know what you did, but I have an uncle in Marine Recon, so who knows? Maybe you saved his ass a few times. Either way, thanks.

Nothing for nothing, I'd love to read a perspective of a SM as he goes through augmentation and training. I just finished Eisenhorn, so if Dan EVER puts out something like that, I'd read it in a heartbeat.

TermiesInARaider wrote:

I wanna thank you personally for serving. I don't know what you did, but I have an uncle in Marine Recon, so who knows? Maybe you saved his ass a few times. Either way, thanks.

Nothing for nothing, I'd love to read a perspective of a SM as he goes through augmentation and training. I just finished Eisenhorn, so if Dan EVER puts out something like that, I'd read it in a heartbeat.

Dont have to thank me, I joined cos I really really wanted to. The Luxor tourist massacre gave me a lust for war, there was nothing selfless or noble about it.

Regards the books, I recommend ATSKNF definitely, Abnett is the best writer, and there is quite alot of talk about training and tactics. I enjoyed it alot anyway.

The book, Sons of Dorn, has the perspective of an Imperial Fist as he is selected and goes through training. Its pretty good, although I'm sure Dan would do an even more awsome job.

The book, Sons of Dorn, has the perspective of an Imperial Fist as he is selected and goes through training. Its pretty good, although I'm sure Dan would do an even more awsome job.

three fists IIRC each chosen because of their skill witha sword but each from a differnt planetary faction with a different style. One's a space samurai, ones a Renaissance style fighter and the last is a tribes man.

I don't think there is a standard,but if there is one I bet it's brutalbrutal. If we are talking martial arts we're not talking kun-fu we're talking UFC.

From what I've read at best it differs from chapter to chapter but there is still variation within the chapter. I imagine marine are allowed to pursue martial perfection in there own way.

SpankHammer III wrote:

The book, Sons of Dorn, has the perspective of an Imperial Fist as he is selected and goes through training. Its pretty good, although I'm sure Dan would do an even more awsome job.

three fists IIRC each chosen because of their skill witha sword but each from a differnt planetary faction with a different style. One's a space samurai, ones a Renaissance style fighter and the last is a tribes man.

I don't think there is a standard,but if there is one I bet it's brutalbrutal. If we are talking martial arts we're not talking kun-fu we're talking UFC.

From what I've read at best it differs from chapter to chapter but there is still variation within the chapter. I imagine marine are allowed to pursue martial perfection in there own way.

Sounds good! I'll definitely check those out.

Grey Templar wrote:Imperial Fists and their decendents practice a unique style that uses a short sword as its focus.

Omegus wrote:Legions had different styles of combat. Some emphasized minimalist precision (Ultras), others used knightly traditions (Imperial Fists, Dark Angels)

Any sources for the Imperial Fist info, guys?

Mr Nobody wrote:Did knights in the middle ages have a standard fighting style? Because marines would most likely train in a technique to go up against armour and power armour.

From the 14th century onward there are records of standardised fighting schools, particularly in what will later become Germany and Italy. Talhoffer and Fiori dei Liberi are 2 examples giving recommended move and counter move for a variety of weapons from knives up to pole-arms as well as unarmed combat. Fencing isn't really a battlefield combat drill, being more designed for 17th and 18th century fops to stab each other to death with

It should be noted that weapon design and usage have changed throughout history as armour has developed to counter the weapons, which then change to counter the armour. Its a bit anacronistic to assume that future close combat weapons will be anything like modern and historical ones, but I guess a pointy stick is a pretty universal weapon and there are a limited number of ways that a human can swing a big metal bar

I tend to refer to it as "Panzerfaust", based on a martial arts style from another RPG that was designed for full-borg conversions and huge dudes in huge power armor suits.

It translates into "Armored Fist" in the usage from that game.

I'd have thought with all that superhuman strength and diamond edged chainswords they'd really just swing, punch and kick their way through hand-to-hand. Then again, in HH they mention that they train for close quarters a lot, but in other sources, notably DoW and the little intro bit of the previous SM codex, it indicates that they just 'beast it'. I mean the guys on DoW aren't exactly the most skilled swordsmen, while in the intro part of the previous SM codex it says the character simply rolls on top of nids to crush them, and crushes their heads with his hand. Pretty straight forward by the sounds of it (DoW as a legitimate source can be questioned, but even in the more recent SM game, again a questionable source for some, the strokes are pretty direct, with some a bit fancier but still).

Banzaimash wrote:I'd have thought with all that superhuman strength and diamond edged chainswords they'd really just swing, punch and kick their way through hand-to-hand. Then again, in HH they mention that they train for close quarters a lot, but in other sources, notably DoW and the little intro bit of the previous SM codex, it indicates that they just 'beast it'. I mean the guys on DoW aren't exactly the most skilled swordsmen, while in the intro part of the previous SM codex it says the character simply rolls on top of nids to crush them, and crushes their heads with his hand. Pretty straight forward by the sounds of it (DoW as a legitimate source can be questioned, but even in the more recent SM game, again a questionable source for some, the strokes are pretty direct, with some a bit fancier but still).

I was thinking the same thing. Their style seems to be "hit really hard" and I think that was a very deliberate choice. If you showed a SM using a agile style like fencing, it wouldn't look right. They are big and in big armor they are like walking tanks. Also a a few of their weapons can only be used brute force style.

Don't discount marines being agile.

Just because they are big doesn't mean they are clunky. They are always described as being incredibly agile and dexterous, even to the point of being a blurr of motion when fighting.

The Speed and Skill of a Ninja merged with the brute force only a Super-human Demigod can bring. Absolute terror!

Grey Templar wrote:Don't discount marines being agile.

Just because they are big doesn't mean they are clunky. They are always described as being incredibly agile and dexterous, even to the point of being a blurr of motion when fighting.

The Speed and Skill of a Ninja merged with the brute force only a Super-human Demigod can bring. Absolute terror!

It just dosen't compute with me. They can write the word agile over and over, but it's really hard to picture a SM as agile. One of the reasons I place the games over the books is that they have to show you how things look. That makes it a lot easier to picture.

i would imagine SM CQC with or without weapons would be all about large aplications of force used with presision.

after all. a SM is a 8 foot tall walking tank. they wouldn't be exactly subtle when it comes to punching an ork/tau/eldarwhatevers face in.

while its a game (and the canon is iffy at best) the game Space Marine would be a close assumption of SM CQC, sheer force and brutality combined with pin point attacks ( best way to lop a nids head of is strike at X spinal joint etc etc), other chapters would likly have variations on the combat style.

They won't be doing anythign fancy but they will get the job done and leave a bloody mess behind.

Im 100% sure they use Gun Kata.

We all know how much 40k loves meleeing.
How else do they get to melee while using guns?

xD

If the Dawn of War intro videos are anything to go by, they seem to be pretty much just swinging angrily in large, sweeping motions...

I seriously doubt that's the case though. If they're supposed to have WS4 (which seems to correspond to significantly better than a well-trained human), then I would imagine they are highly skilled in multiple forms of blade and unarmed combat.

I would be particularly interested to see the 'pistol and sword' techniques they use i melee as I can't really think of anything modern that really corresponds.

DoW

I second the Krav Maga motion, obviously not move-for-move, but the general area of "least amount of movement for maxium, ruthless damage infliction" fits to a "T"