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Exalted Pariah wrote:I second the Krav Maga motion, obviously not move-for-move, but the general area of "least amount of movement for maxium, ruthless damage infliction" fits to a "T"

Exactly. Half of these descriptions of what people are picturing is very much like Krav Maga.

Im sure they have a system theyre taught as initiates. Like the us marines hafe mcmap. But come on were talking about space marines 40000 years in the future, unless there is a reference i dont think we can really know. It always mentions them fighting the training bots.

Brother Thomas wrote:Im sure they have a system theyre taught as initiates. Like the us marines hafe mcmap. But come on were talking about space marines 40000 years in the future, unless there is a reference i dont think we can really know. It always mentions them fighting the training bots.

Come to think of it, I think we're looking at this the wrong way.

Assuming there is some kind of standard fighting system, it would be a safe assumption that it would be in the Codex Astartes. Well, think of when the codex was written? Before the Tyranids, before (I think) the Necrons. And the Imperium had just come out of the Horus Heresy. Considering who the biggest threat at the time was, the traitor legions, it wouldn't be too off to see a little more finesse in those techniques. Not to the level of Kung-Fu Hustle, Matrix bullet-time silliness, but still. I do think a good parallel, if we're making real-life comparisons, would be MCMAP, as opposed to Krav Maga. Brutal. Efficient. But by no means simplistic.

TermiesInARaider wrote:Assuming there is some kind of standard fighting system, it would be a safe assumption that it would be in the Codex Astartes. Well, think of when the codex was written? Before the Tyranids, before (I think) the Necrons. And the Imperium had just come out of the Horus Heresy. Considering who the biggest threat at the time was, the traitor legions, it wouldn't be too off to see a little more finesse in those techniques. Not to the level of Kung-Fu Hustle, Matrix bullet-time silliness, but still. I do think a good parallel, if we're making real-life comparisons, would be MCMAP, as opposed to Krav Maga. Brutal. Efficient. But by no means simplistic.

Still, probably no jump kicks or fancy finishing moves. The sheer bulk of power armor should give a marine the power he needs to get the better of any lesser opponent, and an opposing marine has all that bulk himself. Probably straight-up brutal offense against anyone squishy and a somewhat more defensive style in wait of a counter-attack opportunity vs tougher opponents.

TermiesInARaider wrote:

Brother Thomas wrote:Im sure they have a system theyre taught as initiates. Like the us marines hafe mcmap. But come on were talking about space marines 40000 years in the future, unless there is a reference i dont think we can really know. It always mentions them fighting the training bots.

Come to think of it, I think we're looking at this the wrong way.

Assuming there is some kind of standard fighting system, it would be a safe assumption that it would be in the Codex Astartes. Well, think of when the codex was written? Before the Tyranids, before (I think) the Necrons. And the Imperium had just come out of the Horus Heresy. Considering who the biggest threat at the time was, the traitor legions, it wouldn't be too off to see a little more finesse in those techniques. Not to the level of Kung-Fu Hustle, Matrix bullet-time silliness, but still. I do think a good parallel, if we're making real-life comparisons, would be MCMAP, as opposed to Krav Maga. Brutal. Efficient. But by no means simplistic.

I agree. And it wouldnt be too much to assume theyre good martial artists, every time i read about combat in a space marine book i always hear about there quickness and finesse that belies there hulking forms

Archonate wrote:

Exalted Pariah wrote:I second the Krav Maga motion, obviously not move-for-move, but the general area of "least amount of movement for maxium, ruthless damage infliction" fits to a "T"

Exactly. Half of these descriptions of what people are picturing is very much like Krav Maga.

I actually have to doubt that, marines aren't exactly pragmatic and generally are based off of a fictional or real group, and thus might sacrifice pragmaticism for the sake of story or tradition. For example, UM being based off of Rome might use something like Greco-Roman wrestling, the White Scars might instead use something more like an oriental traditional martial art (do Mongols have any particular martial arts?), SW might use something more like dirty street fighting, they punch, they bite, they kick, they get you in choke holds, and Raptors and Mentors being more pragmatic might use something like Krav Maga except focused much more on pure strength and speed.

As for how the pragmatic fighting would be, it would be nothing like Krav Maga, I just used it as a pragmatic example. Marines only care about killing as quickly as possible and they have massive size and reflexes. Odds are a marine against an Ork or guardsman would involve punching or tossing them to the ground, stomping them, and continuing on. Against bigger opponents they might use something more like existing martial arts. Also, I imagine that most marines have an affinity for snapping spines since both Russ and Sanguinus snap an enemy's spine during the Horus Heresy (Magnus and a Blood Thirster respectively).

I'm still going with Batman from the Arkham games. Just take out most of the flipping and flying kicks, and you're left with bone-crunching, powerhouse punches, headbutts, ground kicks, throws and general MMA bad-assery.

Wouldn't they have multiple forms for different opponents?

For example, against traitor guard they would have a style based on quickly moving from one target to the next, as each of their strikes would likely incapacitate if not kill the guardsman target, and so they would need to focus on striking the most opponents in the least amount of time.

If they were fighting Eldar they would switch to a different form which allows for defensive action until the Eldar opponent over-extended itself or made itself vulnerable somehow. The art would then also teach how to either 1) kill the Eldar with a single strike, or 2) how to significantly decrease its combat abilities in case the oppurtunity for a fatal blow isn't availible.

And of course there would be some sort of combat training for dealing with traitor astartes of all stripes.

The idea is that to assume there is only one style is ignoring the sheer variety of threats astartes have to face. Hope my theory makes sense

Ok so first of all, SM are all about shock and awe, so big, showy moves are likely to be used to intimidate the enemy (thinking like in the finishing moves in the game)

But surely their style would depend on the enemy they're up against: there are tyranid fighting doctrines and stuff, and against other Marines they'd be going for armour joints.

Chapter based though, As a rough outline I'd say:

Space wolves - Gotta be some brutal viking style hack n' slash. But still very skilled.
Ultramarines - Finessed, efficient, as noticed by Honsou in "the heraclitus effect" short story.
Blood Angels - Graceful, but very bloody,
Dark Angels - Knightly, medieval style,
White scars - Speed but also fluid motions and more sweeping, slashing blows rather than point work.
Raven guard - Speed, fluidity, brutally efficient.
Salamanders - I actually find it hard to picture a salamander in CC...
Imperial fists - based on medieval/reneissance swordplay IIRC
Iron hands - honestly no idea, I'd assume quite like the UM, pretty basic and as efficient as possible.

That's what I'd imagine it to be, as a sweeping generalisation, and obviously it'd vary according to the Individual.

Dark Apostle 666 wrote:
Raven guard - Speed, fluidity, brutally efficient.

That's what I'd imagine it to be, as a sweeping generalisation, and obviously it'd vary according to the Individual.

I play Raven Guard, so I may be biased, but this is how I prefer to think of them in CC:

Dark Apostle 666 wrote:Ok so first of all, SM are all about shock and awe, so big, showy moves are likely to be used to intimidate the enemy (thinking like in the finishing moves in the game)

But surely their style would depend on the enemy they're up against: there are tyranid fighting doctrines and stuff, and against other Marines they'd be going for armour joints.

Chapter based though, As a rough outline I'd say:

Salamanders - I actually find it hard to picture a salamander in CC...

Me too, but with the whole artisan smithing culture, I'd think more brutal heavy hitting moves, wasn't it Vulkan and Manus tied for the two strongest primarchs?

Exalted Pariah wrote:I second the Krav Maga motion, obviously not move-for-move, but the general area of "least amount of movement for maxium, ruthless damage infliction" fits to a "T"

...along with every other practical martial art that has ever existed, from unarmed hand-to-hand to the 'civil' rapier fencing*, and everything inbetween. All 'martial arts' exist for a reason - to be able to put an enemy down as quickly as possible but primarily to keep you alive. Then there are obviously martial arts with secondary & tertiary objectives, such as keeping you in formation with other people practising the same means of fighting so that you're one unit, but generally learning a martial art is a means of staying alive & quickly making sure your opponent doesn't.

*I say civil, but c16/c17 Italian rapier could be a damned dirty way to fight at times.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:

Exalted Pariah wrote:I second the Krav Maga motion, obviously not move-for-move, but the general area of "least amount of movement for maxium, ruthless damage infliction" fits to a "T"

...along with every other practical martial art that has ever existed, from unarmed hand-to-hand to the 'civil' rapier fencing*, and everything inbetween. All 'martial arts' exist for a reason - to be able to put an enemy down as quickly as possible but primarily to keep you alive. Then there are obviously martial arts with secondary & tertiary objectives, such as keeping you in formation with other people practising the same means of fighting so that you're one unit, but generally learning a martial art is a means of staying alive & quickly making sure your opponent doesn't.

*I say civil, but c16/c17 Italian rapier could be a damned dirty way to fight at times.

I'd say you're spot on with the Krav Maga conflict. Newsflash; brutality is not a new concept, people.

That said, I'm not sure if rapier fencing really fits the SM, just based on how their fighting style is portrayed. Not a lot of short, fast thrusting going on.

Well, an Astartes fighting a human or human sized opponent would be like the Hulk fighting a human, the sheer physical differences mean there's pretty well no requirement for any special kind of training.

Most Astartes vs Astartes training would, (as far as the unarmed aspect is concerned) work around throws and grappling. Punching someone in power armour, even for another Astartes, is pretty much an exercise in futility.

It would be very different to almost anything we have experience with, simply because of the physical differences. It'd be like training as a martial artist today, but where every practitioner is a muscle-bound hulk, and training to fight ten year old kids. Hell, even that doesn't accurately describe the differences.

Well, the roots of martial arts is based off the idea of self-defense and the idea of doing damage to someone or something. The easiest method is with a tool designed to damage. And when you don't have the means of acquiring one, that is when using your limbs become necessary. But the most basic of rules, the roots of the rules still apply. Main goal is to fend off an opponent, incapacitate, or kill. So based on what your goal is, you do whatever fancy hand or feet technique you need in order to achieve it. And beginning from there, because empty-handed techniques stem from the same methods of doing injury/disarming, a person must develop his/her own way so as not to be easily countered and outmanoeuvred.

Based off of this, an Astartes or any warrior of the Imperium really, must learn to do harm to the many things in their galaxy, most likely developing a technique for each enemy they face, and when needed, fall back to hand and leg techniques with the same idea of inflicting damage to the myriads of enemies they face. I would assume an Astartes would be taught these basic principles, and again, any warrior of the Imperium as well. So when it comes down to wrestling Mr. Ghazghkull, I would expect one would know where vital organs are located, how to to easiest break an enemies limb, twist joints, where to hit to inflict the most pain, how best to suffocate an opponent, and where the bleedout points of an enemy is. Oh, and if they see a gun lying around, they should use that as well.

There's a saying that goes around the US Military. The winner of any hand to hand engagement is whoever's buddy shows up first with a gun.

That said, the hulk-factor really only works against baseline humans/tau/anyone not designed for hand to hand combat. Eldar Aspect Warriors are clearly capable of taking on SM in hand-to-hand without getting hulk-smashed. So clearly, a versatile, flexible combat doctrine is required, one that contains a wide variety of techniques for dealing with a wide variety of enemies with widely varying capabilities and fighting styles.

TermiesInARaider wrote:one that contains a wide variety of techniques for dealing with a wide variety of enemies with widely varying capabilities and fighting styles.

So...four?

LumenPraebeo wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:one that contains a wide variety of techniques for dealing with a wide variety of enemies with widely varying capabilities and fighting styles.

So...four?

As opposed to 'modern' martial arts, that's plenty. We only have to take into account one anatomy, with one set of vital points, one set of joints, one set of techniques. I think it's safe to say trying an outside wristlock constructed for humans on a genestealer will get you killed, no matter who you are. Of course, if you'd like to grapple with a nob, you're more than welcome.

Kaldor wrote:Well, an Astartes fighting a human or human sized opponent would be like the Hulk fighting a human, the sheer physical differences mean there's pretty well no requirement for any special kind of training.

Most Astartes vs Astartes training would, (as far as the unarmed aspect is concerned) work around throws and grappling. Punching someone in power armour, even for another Astartes, is pretty much an exercise in futility.

It would be very different to almost anything we have experience with, simply because of the physical differences. It'd be like training as a martial artist today, but where every practitioner is a muscle-bound hulk, and training to fight ten year old kids. Hell, even that doesn't accurately describe the differences.

You are only thinking in terms of causing damage when it comes to marines striking marines and why they shouldn't do it with just their bare fists. There is a potential tactical edge a strike can give you even if it were to cause no damage, it could move, unbalance or cause an opponent to attempt to block. I practice a few martial arts and fight with guys a hell of a lot bigger than me, I can't damage some of these guys with my strikes but that doesn't mean they're no longer useful.

Also, there are martial arts today that work and practice around getting results when you're physically overpowered.

Lastly, earlier in this thread it was just assumed by you all that there would be no point using joint locks etc on a marine in power armour, the power of the person using it is regardless as long as they have good technique and have the correct physical proportions to execute a lock. It's not power that breaks limbs, it's the effect use of torque at the correct point. I would imagine it is totally possible that an exceptional human being given the right body type could break a marine joint even in power armour, maybe even breaking the suit in the location they were trying to damage if they so happened to get in the situation where they could do this. Highly unlikely the situation would come about but it could.

Lastly, from a personal opinion perspective, krav maga is a load of horsegak as the ultimate self defence system. The bourne movies made it super popular, which is incredible as krav is about 5% of the hand to hand fighting in all the films.

I imagine Space Marines would mainly be about Keysi/Mano Mano/Muay Thai and JKD. Brutal, fast and effective.

I am unsure about this business of applying modern day [and historical] fighting styles towards the Space Marines. The vast differences in enemies, both common and uncommon, are not shared amongst ourselves where the only foe is another human. I find it slightly nonsensical that we are even trying to apply known fighting techniques to an elite fighting cadre in the 41st millenium whom fight an incredible range of opponents, each with their own particularly brutal way of outfighting, outpacing and outfiring a Marine.

I do not dispute the possibility of any potential combat manual for the Marines. It was, in all likelihood, in practice during pre-Heresy days, during the Heresy and placed through the Codex Astartes post-Heresy. It must be noted however that throughout numerous BL novels we are given examples of differing fighting techniques amongst the Legions. As far as I can see; we are told very little, although it's pretty clear that there is a framework.

To whomever said that fighting a space marine for normal humans would be akin to fighting the hulk.



Actually, I can see a particularly peeved off Space Marine pulling that off. I'd imagine it'd be incredibly cathartic. But yeah generally a space marine's fighting style generally comes down to "wreck face asap."

endlesswaltz123 wrote:You are only thinking in terms of causing damage when it comes to marines striking marines and why they shouldn't do it with just their bare fists. There is a potential tactical edge a strike can give you even if it were to cause no damage, it could move, unbalance or cause an opponent to attempt to block. I practice a few martial arts and fight with guys a hell of a lot bigger than me, I can't damage some of these guys with my strikes but that doesn't mean they're no longer useful.

I appreciate that, but the cost/reward matrix is skewed heavily in favour of grappling over striking. The powered armour changes things enough that real world analogies are only partially applicable at best.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:I would imagine it is totally possible that an exceptional human being given the right body type could break a marine joint even in power armour, maybe even breaking the suit in the location they were trying to damage if they so happened to get in the situation where they could do this. Highly unlikely the situation would come about but it could.

It'd be like someone trying to put an arm bar on a forklift. No human body could pull off something like that against an armoured Marine.

The best guess I have is some form of Jiu Jitsu. The military teaches some basics to troops in basic training. But Jiu Jitsu dosent really fit the SM style in my opinon, seeing that jiu jitsu is designed to take down someone much bigger than you. I dont think SM would have a problem on the whole strength thing.

A lot of grappling has been suggested, but I disagree strongly with it, spend too much time in contact with one single enemy and you will die to the other million enemies that are behind him.

Due to the Marine's brutal strength and lightning reflexes, little to no "standard" swipe/punch/slash techniques are required, since the Marine can simply do it in the most vulnerable point he can spot and just hit as hard as he can, optimizing damage on the fly.

TermiesInARaider wrote:That said, I'm not sure if rapier fencing really fits the SM, just based on how their fighting style is portrayed. Not a lot of short, fast thrusting going on.

Ah, I only put that in because there are people who truly believe that 'Martial Arts' only covers unarmed combat, or those from the Eastern part of the world, so I deliberately put in a martial art that is distinctly Western & also different from 'unarmed' combat - I could have put in Talhoffer and it would have been the same.

And I agree, the treatise of Italian, Spanish & European rapier maestros would not really suit the Astartes because of the movements involved and because every single movement is designed to keep the weapons wielder safe whilst putting the enemy in danger - I don't think the Astartes would mind so much being in danger with their mentality, bodies & armour.

*I'd love to see an Astartes in power armour trying to perform a passata sotto! Involves dropping very low, head tucked down, sword up and ahead of you at the opponents torso, with the back leg out to the rear or to the side of the sword hand.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:That said, I'm not sure if rapier fencing really fits the SM, just based on how their fighting style is portrayed. Not a lot of short, fast thrusting going on.

Ah, I only put that in because there are people who truly believe that 'Martial Arts' only covers unarmed combat, or those from the Eastern part of the world, so I deliberately put in a martial art that is distinctly Western & also different from 'unarmed' combat - I could have put in Talhoffer and it would have been the same.

And I agree, the treatise of Italian, Spanish & European rapier maestros would not really suit the Astartes because of the movements involved and because every single movement is designed to keep the weapons wielder safe whilst putting the enemy in danger - I don't think the Astartes would mind so much being in danger with their mentality, bodies & armour.

*I'd love to see an Astartes in power armour trying to perform a passata sotto! Involves dropping very low, head tucked down, sword up and ahead of you at the opponents torso, with the back leg out to the rear or to the side of the sword hand.

Ooh, someone with an education! When I think of SM swordplay, at least in terms of a relic blade, I usually think of Lichtenaur's long-sword plays.

They hit things.

They hit things until they die.

Style? Pfft, what are they, Eldar?

iproxtaco wrote:They hit things.

They hit things until they die.

Style? Pfft, what are they, Eldar?

Dear sir, you're confusing Marines with Orks. When we speak of the best enhancements, equipment, and training the Imperium has to offer, I'm fairly certain, especially with the concentration of CCWs in the 40k universe, that, at the very least, rudimentary and basic empty-handed training, and certainly advanced training with assorted weapons, is far beyond implied. It practically needs no mention, it's so obvious.

TermiesInARaider wrote:Ooh, someone with an education! When I think of SM swordplay, at least in terms of a relic blade, I usually think of Lichtenaur's long-sword plays.

My turn to go "Ooh" because I hadn't really thought of applying c14/c15 longsword techniques to Space Marines and do you know my first thought was to try and work out how create Marine models with 'proper' c15 longsword 'power swords' - a project for the future perhaps! Thank you for (inadvertantly) firing up the creativity in my mind!

TermiesInARaider wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:They hit things.

They hit things until they die.

Style? Pfft, what are they, Eldar?

Dear sir, you're confusing Marines with Orks. When we speak of the best enhancements, equipment, and training the Imperium has to offer, I'm fairly certain, especially with the concentration of CCWs in the 40k universe, that, at the very least, rudimentary and basic empty-handed training, and certainly advanced training with assorted weapons, is far beyond implied. It practically needs no mention, it's so obvious.

Yes I understand the capacity of an Astartes's training, that was satirical.

Without knowledge of proper real-life hand-to-hand techniques or visual evidence of the Marines in action is it pretty difficult to say. The only time they will ever be tested to any capacity is against either other Astartes or Eldar, in the known 40k universe.

They have a clear advantage in strength over the Eldar, and it depends which chapter they're fighting for the former.

Most likely it involves brute strength over speed and skill. Not much use for agility and skill in the battles they fight.