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Tadashi wrote:Not in a million years. The Emperor may have been willing to negotiate with xenos, but even if they 'joined' the Imperium, they'd be second-class citizens or Imperial Protectorates forbidden from space travel/space colonization. Humans always come first in the Emperor's eyes.

The Emperor also wanted to eliminate all religion and ban the use of psykers, but desperate times call for desperate measures. Besides, what of the Jokaero?

Chowderhead wrote:Hi, Chowderhead here, with some excellent news!

It was the Eldar who sped up the T'au. The Eldar. Not the silly God Emperor.

Do you have a source for that other than the Xenology book (which I already addressed)?

Xenology is the source I go from. It's a canon source, contrary to your belief.

Nobody claims the Eldar "created" the Tau.

The theories and hints point towards the Old Ones creating the Tau, namely with the fact that the Eldar (another creation of the Old Ones) felt a "strange protectiveness" towards the Tau. The Warpstorms are something the Old Ones would certainly have been capable of creating.

Kanluwen wrote:Nobody claims the Eldar "created" the Tau.

The theories and hints point towards the Old Ones creating the Tau, namely with the fact that the Eldar (another creation of the Old Ones) felt a "strange protectiveness" towards the Tau. The Warpstorms are something the Old Ones would certainly have been capable of creating.

Were the Old Ones still around back then? I thought they all died off by the time of the imperium.

Chowderhead wrote:Xenology is the source I go from. It's a canon source, contrary to your belief.

Except you can completely ignore the bit about the Hrud being swamp thing and wearing flairs

I thought it was actually quite a cool book, with some nice little nods towards the lesser-known species. It was also the first book to give a hint at how the background for the Necrons would be due to change with the latest codex..

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Nobody claims the Eldar "created" the Tau.

The theories and hints point towards the Old Ones creating the Tau, namely with the fact that the Eldar (another creation of the Old Ones) felt a "strange protectiveness" towards the Tau. The Warpstorms are something the Old Ones would certainly have been capable of creating.

Were the Old Ones still around back then? I thought they all died off by the time of the imperium.

I'm sure there were one or two left, the Old Ones as a power might have died off but it could easily be waved away as being like the Ancients in the Stargate series.

Fetterkey wrote:
The Emperor *did* craft superior elements humanity-- they were called the Space Marines. But once he was installed on the Throne, it would be very difficult for him to carry out a project like that within his own territories, especially since such a project would ironically be decreed a heresy by certain elements of the Inquisition. Similarly, the Adeptus Mechanicus hold too much of a stranglehold on Imperial technology for the Emperor to advocate new technological developments, as such are controlled by other factions. For the Emperor to embark in a new project, it would ironically have to be accomplished outside the Imperium proper.

Well he kinda failed with the SM's and again hated Xeno's. There are thousands of human worlds outside the law of the IoM, hell there are Thousands of worlds inside the IoM that have not been visited in thousands of years. If he could pull something like this off, it would not have been on hated xeno scum.

It's not completely far fetched that elements of the IoM are protecting the tau. Think of all the crusades that are launched half funded and recalled right at the point of victory. The IoM is either massively incompetent, or someone in high command really likes the tau.

nomotog wrote:It's not completely far fetched that elements of the IoM are protecting the tau. Think of all the crusades that are launched half funded and recalled right at the point of victory. The IoM is either massively incompetent, or someone in high command really likes the tau.

Yes it is. Because of where the Tau Sept Worlds are located, most Crusades often run into bigger issues like Orks, Tyranids, or Chaos. Until the Tau get a fair shake of a fluff update in their Codex, their on a lower rung in the priority-ladder of the Imperium, which is fine.

I believe that the Tau are the last creations of the Old Ones that are destined to do things of great importance. Their lack of presence in the Warp (sorry Mankind), Farseer Eldrad of Ulthwe seeing good things in their future, and the overall feeling that the Eldar sees them as Naive younger siblings.

Maybe the Tau will be a considerable threat to Chaos in the future, who knows?

Yeah the IoM has bigger fish to fry. At this time the Tau are not really a threat, in a 1'000 years they might be but right now they are pests, to swat Evey now and then and ignore.

Chowderhead wrote:Xenology is the source I go from. It's a canon source, contrary to your belief.

Ah, so Tau have feet instead of hooves and some random bounty hunter can kidnap an Ethereal from a Tau planet and escape?

Hunterindarkness wrote:Well he kinda failed with the SM's and again hated Xeno's. There are thousands of human worlds outside the law of the IoM, hell there are Thousands of worlds inside the IoM that have not been visited in thousands of years. If he could pull something like this off, it would not have been on hated xeno scum.

But the Imperial structure has gone rogue, and only vaguely serves the Emperor. Many of his original decrees have been disregarded, and many the Emperor's purported servants act contrary to his will. The Inquisition, for instance, is fragmented and factionalized. To undertake such a project within the Imperium would ironically expose it to destruction from humanity's purported protectors, while to do so elsewhere would allow for a clean slate and would be easier to shield from meddling.

One other important note is that the Emperor's personality is split into many sub-minds, which he uses to accomplish a great number of tasks at once. The sub-minds, however, are not always aware of the actions of other components of the whole. It doesn't seem too far-fetched to claim that at least some of the Emperor's personalities would be willing to entertain the idea of working with Xenos, especially in this sort of desperate situation. Humanity has worked with Xenos before, and not just in uneasy alliances with the Eldar-- the Jokaero, for instance, are seen as so useful that they are worth working with, despite being extremely close to (and some would say over) the line of tech-heresy.

It does seem very, very far fetched for him to use Xeno's. He would never risk placing any xeno race above man. If he had this power, he would have used it long ago on mankind.

Hunterindarkness wrote:Yeah the IoM has bigger fish to fry. At this time the Tau are not really a threat, in a 1'000 years they might be but right now they are pests, to swat Evey now and then and ignore.

This, they are a backwater race, what you might get if GW decided to make a codex for the Rak'Gol or maybe some other race thrown out there for the sake of variety. They have been pestering the IoM only because they do not realize/want to realize the true scale of it, and that it is the only thing keeping the galaxy from go to hell (quite literally perhaps). And the notion about their society being better is BS, the Imperium keeps its own sort of "natural selection" life is tough, but the individuals that posses qualities more so than their peers will achieve more and distinguish them selves achieving higher rank and there for right place in the structure of the IoM while retaining individuality and diversity which is humanity's greatest advantage. The faith in the God Emperor of Man Kind while not something he initially intended is what empowers Him and keeps their souls connected to his via the psychic imprint left by the peoples' worship in the warp and keeps their souls from falling to/empowering chaos.
The Tau are suppose to be a "breath of fresh air" in the 40k universe, not a major player.

I myself am thinking the Tau will at somepoint pull the same trick humanity did . They took over but only after the Eldar killed themselves off. Once Humanity fractures or off's itself then the Tau will start to take over the galaxy.


That seems to be the 40k galaxy life cycle.

KplKeegan wrote:

nomotog wrote:It's not completely far fetched that elements of the IoM are protecting the tau. Think of all the crusades that are launched half funded and recalled right at the point of victory. The IoM is either massively incompetent, or someone in high command really likes the tau.

Yes it is. Because of where the Tau Sept Worlds are located, most Crusades often run into bigger issues like Orks, Tyranids, or Chaos. Until the Tau get a fair shake of a fluff update in their Codex, their on a lower rung in the priority-ladder of the Imperium, which is fine.

I believe that the Tau are the last creations of the Old Ones that are destined to do things of great importance. Their lack of presence in the Warp (sorry Mankind), Farseer Eldrad of Ulthwe seeing good things in their future, and the overall feeling that the Eldar sees them as Naive younger siblings.

Maybe the Tau will be a considerable threat to Chaos in the future, who knows?

This.
Man this is a really good way of looking at the Tau. The idea that the Tau were created by the Old Ones is a good idea because the Old Ones aren't dead, they simply fled from getting killed. And I believe this was after the Warp had been tainted by Chaos, so realizing this the decided to make a new race that was semi-warp resistant. And yes the Eldar did say that he was proud of them. He says they ave the power and will to surpass them all if I recall correctly.

It still really bugs me that the new rumors are saying that the IoM created the Tau. If this is true I will have lost all faith in GW because I don't see how they can make these seem logical.

Xenology is an "in-character" book, so of course the writer of it is convinced that what he's saying is true. It's not written from the perspective of an out-of-universe game designer, after all.

Adding to that, there's no such thing as canon in 40k. Personally, I believe that Malice/Malal or Necoho & Zuvassin had a field day with the Tau during the six millennia of warp-storms that kept the Tau locked off. Creating a race that is highly resistant to Chaos seems exactly the sort of thing that Necoho would do... or perhaps Zuvassin, changing the plans some other powerful being had for them.

Chaos puppets, all of them, just not pawns of the Great Four.

Fetterkey wrote:

One other important note is that the Emperor's personality is split into many sub-minds, which he uses to accomplish a great number of tasks at once. The sub-minds, however, are not always aware of the actions of other components of the whole. It doesn't seem too far-fetched to claim that at least some of the Emperor's personalities would be willing to entertain the idea of working with Xenos, especially in this sort of desperate situation. Humanity has worked with Xenos before, and not just in uneasy alliances with the Eldar-- the Jokaero, for instance, are seen as so useful that they are worth working with, despite being extremely close to (and some would say over) the line of tech-heresy.

The theory in the OP is nice...at a first look. Then realizing the holes kicks in.
The vision we get to know, was a humanity free of alien oppressors, free of AI controlling everything. So Big E's plans are focused on his own
home-team, not the league and who he could add to win. If he wanted an ally, HE'd choose a potent one.
The one he may have met before, the necrons. A force of order, of unity. A potent supplier of tech. Able to bring another million worlds to this
'alliance'. Sadly the loyality protocols are deleted..... a reactivation of them, now towards Big E' himself...

Yori wrote:
The Tau are suppose to be a "breath of fresh air" in the 40k universe, not a major player.

Fetterkey wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Not in a million years. The Emperor may have been willing to negotiate with xenos, but even if they 'joined' the Imperium, they'd be second-class citizens or Imperial Protectorates forbidden from space travel/space colonization. Humans always come first in the Emperor's eyes.

The Emperor also wanted to eliminate all religion and ban the use of psykers, but desperate times call for desperate measures. Besides, what of the Jokaero?

They're an Imperial Protectorate. Even then, contact is limited to official personnel and the rare Rogue Trader. Trade and such is heavily-regulated.

If anyone created the Tau it was the Necrons. Think about no warp presence, hate both chaos and the imperium, a slave race to serve the necrons.

I'm really hating the new Necron fluff. In general, I despise the Necrons and everything about them. But before they were just a soulless race hellbent on ending all life and it was cool. They were the stuff of nightmares. And now? They're acting like a normal empire. They had a freaking alliance with the freaking Imperium of Man. I mean, seriously?

But back to the OP, I think it is very interesting and I think there are some really convincing hints. I definitely think we don't know the whole story. But it boils down to heresy, plain and simple. To suggest that the Emperor would place xeno scum above humanity? Impossible. And it is definitely stated that the Tau enslave their "allies". At least in BL. Specifically in the Last Chancers book, Kill Team or whatever.

Just think about the terminology. The Tau have auxiliaries. Secondary help. And those auxiliaries are lower in Tau society than the Tau themselves, plain and simple. The Emperor would never let that happen.

In any case, there are easier ways for the Imperium to get Tau tech, as stated before. The Imperium might stomp the Tau and take whatever. Or they could go for a sneakier route. In the Eisenhorn series, humans manage to get ahold of the most sacred text of the Saruthi. The very most sacred text. Combine that with limited collaboration with the Eldar and it all points to the Imperium being able to obtain tech peacefully.

hellspawn22 wrote:
And it is definitely stated that the Tau enslave their "allies". At least in BL. Specifically in the Last Chancers book, Kill Team or whatever.

And here, Hellspawn has successfully summarized the general state of affairs between BL and GW. :sigh:

For once it would be nice if they actually staked a position on something...

In any case, there are easier ways for the Imperium to get Tau tech, as stated before. The Imperium might stomp the Tau and take whatever. Or they could go for a sneakier route. In the Eisenhorn series, humans manage to get ahold of the most sacred text of the Saruthi. The very most sacred text. Combine that with limited collaboration with the Eldar and it all points to the Imperium being able to obtain tech peacefully.

Well the trend in the literature (be it GW or BL) points to rather "low-key" unofficial gatherings that have occurred between the Imperium and the Tau on matters of mutual interest - ie: The Tyranids are coming and going to eat us all!

Much of this is handled literally sector by sector, or planet by planet. Its not completely out of the question for minor technology transfers to occur...

..that is until the Mechanicus get wind of it. Although, a review of their literary sources shows many factions interested in Xenos tech....to be purified and codified of course along the lines of AdMech's theological/doctrinal commitments.

My approach is just decide what I want and screw everyone else. See? I'm perfect for the Imperium.

Sounds cool, but its Heresy! and heresy is bad. very bad, still cool though

Get me my Tank.....

not 100% but i think the Emperor was on his throne before the Tau was found. that and he doesn't like Xenos anyways.



Besides....

and niether am I

I totally would. Sign up my guard! We all want pulse rifles!

skronk wrote:I totally would. Sign up my guard! We all want pulse rifles!

Heretic. Besides, it's easy enough to outfit a couple hundred thousand fire wrriors with those, but billions upon billions of guardsmen? I don't think so. Anyway, I like my trusty flashlight, especially when supported by Basilisks and tanks that don't break as fast as Tau armor does.

Eh if a Imp world can churn out las rifles, I am pretty sure an IoM world that has turned to the Tau and been integrated would have no issue churning out pulse rifles.

hellspawn22 wrote:And it is definitely stated that the Tau enslave their "allies". At least in BL. Specifically in the Last Chancers book, Kill Team or whatever.

And elsewhere in BL and GW it is definitely stated that the Tau don't enslave their allies. For instance, in the book "For the Emperor," the Tau are shown to be a largely benevolent faction, in conflict with local Imperial forces thanks primarily to the manipulation of outside powers. Overall, this is a major inconsistency in the fluff; that said, regardless of whether the Tau do or don't enslave their allies at present, they would not be able to maintain such strict control if the forces of humanity joined the Tau in large numbers. There simply aren't enough Tau to maintain such control over the masses of humanity!

hellspawn22 wrote:In any case, there are easier ways for the Imperium to get Tau tech, as stated before. The Imperium might stomp the Tau and take whatever. Or they could go for a sneakier route. In the Eisenhorn series, humans manage to get ahold of the most sacred text of the Saruthi. The very most sacred text. Combine that with limited collaboration with the Eldar and it all points to the Imperium being able to obtain tech peacefully.

There are more reasons to side with the Tau than just their current technology, though. The paradigm of the Greater Good is a better one for humanity than the corrupted and debased form of the Imperial Creed that is currently practiced. Further, the Tau will continue to innovate far faster than the Mechanicus, so Tau technology will allow for faster development of new advances.

Basically, it all comes down to this: what does the Emperor hate more? Organized religion and the warp, or consorting with Xenos? It's my view that consorting with Xenos is the lesser of two evils. Note also that the Tau are held to be unusually, suspiciously human-like...

Humm no, the Eldar are awful human like. The Tau are short, nose-less cloven footed blue things. And always bet on the Emperor's Xeno hate. Always.

Fetterkey wrote:
Basically, it all comes down to this: what does the Emperor hate more? Organized religion and the warp, or consorting with Xenos? It's my view that consorting with Xenos is the lesser of two evils. Note also that the Tau are held to be unusually, suspiciously human-like...

Taking the standard line from GW.....Maybe.

This is the inherent problem with trying to take the viewpoints held by an individual in the 31st century and project them into the 41st.

That is of course if his stated viewpoints are his actual viewpoints (courtesy of Graham Mcneill for that one).

But putting aside the "We cannot know the Mind of the Emperor" truism - yes its true he could have very well changed his mind.

Or grown more radical/xenophobic.