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Question on BA tactics - Will someone running this sort of Stormraven centric list attempt to just zoom up and dump everything at point-blank range, maybe using the Skies of Blood/Descent of Angels special rules? Or "stage" to within combat speed range then close "Apocalypse Now" style, attempting to shoot up any AA capable units on the assault turn? Will they avoid hanging back and using the gunships as fire support?

We don't have a lot of people around here running BA - lots of GK stormravens, lots of other SM types (so many SW you can't walk around without stepping in something gross), but no BA's. If these BA Stormravens can do everything they need to wihout slowing to combat speed the only dependable counter is the CCB sweep.

Nictolopy wrote:Praxiss, I hope you realize you have to post the battle report when done.

Pics.
We demand pics, too.

Randall Turner wrote:Question on BA tactics - Will someone running this sort of Stormraven centric list attempt to just zoom up and dump everything at point-blank range, maybe using the Skies of Blood/Descent of Angels special rules? Or "stage" to within combat speed range then close "Apocalypse Now" style, attempting to shoot up any AA capable units on the assault turn? Will they avoid hanging back and using the gunships as fire support?

We don't have a lot of people around here running BA - lots of GK stormravens, lots of other SM types (so many SW you can't walk around without stepping in something gross), but no BA's. If these BA Stormravens can do everything they need to wihout slowing to combat speed the only dependable counter is the CCB sweep.

No, they'll be coming in fast in an attempt to deliver the DC as close as humanly possible to the enemy. If the SRs survive, then they'll start gunning down everything else.

@ OP: I can't give you any advice better than Sasori. I've personally run a list almost identical to that one (but with not Spyders) against a BA SR list, and it worked very well. The 36" range of the Lanceteks and the Heavy Ds will be what wins the game for you, because you NEED to at least immobilize the SRs before they cross the middle of the battlefield. Once you have exposed targets, try to pick out anything that generates a FNP bubble with CCB sweeps (if you roll 6s), and remember that FNP NEVER works against Lancetek or Heavy D shooting, or Warscythes.

EDIT: If you have the models and can afford the points, a Lancetek paired with a Chronotek will give you far better anti-tank results than will 2x Lanceteks in a single unit.

OK, i can beef up the list ans sacrifice a squad of scrabas and 5 warriors for a second squad of 3 Heavy Destroyers.

That gives me 2 lances in an Ark, 6 Heavy Destroyer, 10 Scarabs and 2 CCBs for AT duty. And an Anni Barge since that can (just) Pen a SR.


I think that shoudl still leave me with enough anti infantry to smack him when his troops hit the ground as well. As always, my main fear is him getting into CC range bt that was always going to bean issue since i dont have any Wraiths.

Praxis, given the comments above, you may want to use Zahndrek rather than Anrakyr. You'd have to drop a barge, but you can add another anni barge.

This is because you probably won't get a lot of use out of MitM and you can use Z's counter tactics and adaptive tactics on any unit. As z can give tank hunters, stealth and hit and run, they may be more useful for more of the game.

Just a thought.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Particularly, with hit and run you may be able to drag an unwanted assault away from other units or an objective.

azazel the cat wrote:

Randall Turner wrote:Question on BA tactics - Will someone running this sort of Stormraven centric list attempt to just zoom up and dump everything at point-blank range, maybe using the Skies of Blood/Descent of Angels special rules? Or "stage" to within combat speed range then close "Apocalypse Now" style, attempting to shoot up any AA capable units on the assault turn? Will they avoid hanging back and using the gunships as fire support?

We don't have a lot of people around here running BA - lots of GK stormravens, lots of other SM types (so many SW you can't walk around without stepping in something gross), but no BA's. If these BA Stormravens can do everything they need to wihout slowing to combat speed the only dependable counter is the CCB sweep.

No, they'll be coming in fast in an attempt to deliver the DC as close as humanly possible to the enemy. If the SRs survive, then they'll start gunning down everything else.

@ OP: I can't give you any advice better than Sasori. I've personally run a list almost identical to that one (but with not Spyders) against a BA SR list, and it worked very well. The 36" range of the Lanceteks and the Heavy Ds will be what wins the game for you, because you NEED to at least immobilize the SRs before they cross the middle of the battlefield. Once you have exposed targets, try to pick out anything that generates a FNP bubble with CCB sweeps (if you roll 6s), and remember that FNP NEVER works against Lancetek or Heavy D shooting, or Warscythes.

EDIT: If you have the models and can afford the points, a Lancetek paired with a Chronotek will give you far better anti-tank results than will 2x Lanceteks in a single unit.

y'know, if you're going to take the Chron-linked Lancetek route, you might consider equipping the Overlords with Tachyon Arrows. Then if on any turn any Stormraven moves less than flat-out, you can bop over to a troop unit, dismount, fire waaay the hell across the board and next turn remount as normal. The odds of popping a Stormraven with a chrono-linked TA is basically as good as fire weapons get. (Sasori doesn't like this tactic. ) If there's ever a time to use it though, this is it!

Flat-out saves suck, though. It takes an average of 9 Lancetek shots, or 6 Heavy Gauss shots, or even about 2.5 chrono-linked Tachyon Arrow shots to get a penetration on a Stormraven going flat out. We are *not* going to immobilize the SR's before they get across the middle of the board.

What I was trying to figure out, Azazel, is whether the Stormravens will need to slow down from flat-out to unload their stuff. If he takes the Deathcompany as jump troops, fewer can fit in his ship but they can use that Descent of Angels thingie to jump in without risking (as much) our CC attacks against his gunships on the assault turn.

Can Zhandrek take FNP away and give it to your guys? Or is it only different USRs. Because taking the FNP away from his DC would make him rage methinks.

motyak wrote:Can Zhandrek take FNP away and give it to your guys? Or is it only different USRs. Because taking the FNP away from his DC would make him rage methinks.

Nope. Even if it was a USR for them, that's not one of his "abilities" that he can give or take away.

No, can't take away FNP. There is a smallish list (from memory as I don't have my codex - Night Vision/Acute senses, furious charge, counter attack, fleet, stealth(?), tank hunters (?) Hit and Run (?).

Taking away the unit has to be within Z's LOS.

Giving one USR to your own unit can be any unit, even if not in LOS. In this case, I reckon, tank hunters in the first turn or stealth on the CCB, then Counter attack or furious charge (maybe hit and run) to an appropriate unit on T2-T4.

Someone mentioned earlier that CCBs can sweep attack into close combat.......just checked the codex and it doesn't say anythgin about it.

Is this one of those situations where you can do it because there is nothing that says you can't?

Alsocan't see anything to support thsi in the FAQ.

There have been a number of threads running about Trazyn and his EO ability on a sweep attack, but I guess that didn't have to be over an engaged unit.

I just assumed that the barge could sweep over an engaged unit because it wasn't a shooting attack but

This may call for a separate thread....




in YMDC:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/450294.page

You'll just have to let the dice decide in your game!

haroon wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

haroon wrote:Bring a ton of big scarab swarms, it will be easy to surround the base of the stromraven in assault and when its wrecked, the passengers including the dread will be killed instantly.

I hate those tactic's that's the kind of thing which makes you TFG as it just ruins peoples games, it's what i like to call 'The F@G' Tactic.

That is hilarious coming from a guy who plays Grey knights with psyrifleman spam lol.

Of Course, Everyone who plays Grey Knights uses Psyrifleman spam, All Grey Knight Players are Powergamers and None of them play because they love the models, or maybe played with them before the 5E Codex, Another Thing, Warhammer 40k isn't a hobby, it's all about winning, right?

Best advice: take 2 ccbs and as much low ap firepower as you can. Focus down anything without a sang priest first, blast dreads from affar, then mop up . Ccb's will kill ravens and dreads pretty quickly.

Also, scarbs rock against dreads, can never have enough

Zid wrote:Also, scarbs rock against dreads, can never have enough

Against Blender dreads?

Re-roll to hit, re-roll to wound, every wound is another attack, and you pull a base for every wound.

That doesn't sound like a great way to kill blender dreads.

rigeld2 wrote:

Zid wrote:Also, scarbs rock against dreads, can never have enough

Against Blender dreads?

Re-roll to hit, re-roll to wound, every wound is another attack, and you pull a base for every wound.

That doesn't sound like a great way to kill blender dreads.

Well not blender dreads, didn't read anywhere that said they had talons lol. Ccbs all the way against those!

rigeld2 wrote:

Zid wrote:Also, scarbs rock against dreads, can never have enough

Against Blender dreads?

Re-roll to hit, re-roll to wound, every wound is another attack, and you pull a base for every wound.

That doesn't sound like a great way to kill blender dreads.

I think that on average a "blender dread" will kill a unit of 1000 scarabs bases in a single round of combat before they get to hit back.

Just a couple FYIs on the BA list:

DC come with FNP, so watch yourself there.

If he has 3 DC squads, he will be running Astorath as his HQ.

Hope that helps.

I think i will go with 1 CCb and 2 Anni Barges and take Zahndrekh and a CCB as HQ.

That way my H.Destroyers or Anni barges can have Tank Hunters to help pop those Ravens.

Also i can then take Furious Charge off his units if they get in charge range (DC have FC dont they?)

Praxiss wrote:Also i can then take Furious Charge off his units if they get in charge range (DC have FC dont they?)

They do indeed, sounds like a good plan, Death Co. Aren't that threatening if you can make them run around after one of your vehicles while keeping your distance, the only thing you'll have to worrt about is if they are in a transport as he'll be able to get them in position without worrying about rage.

MarkCron wrote:Praxis, given the comments above, you may want to use Zahndrek rather than Anrakyr. You'd have to drop a barge, but you can add another anni barge.

This is because you probably won't get a lot of use out of MitM and you can use Z's counter tactics and adaptive tactics on any unit. As z can give tank hunters, stealth and hit and run, they may be more useful for more of the game.

Just a thought.


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Particularly, with hit and run you may be able to drag an unwanted assault away from other units or an objective.

As a quick note: Hit and Run requires an Initiative test; something the Necrons are not very good at passing.

Praxiss wrote:Someone mentioned earlier that CCBs can sweep attack into close combat.......just checked the codex and it doesn't say anythgin about it.

Is this one of those situations where you can do it because there is nothing that says you can't?

Alsocan't see anything to support thsi in the FAQ.

Because it is not sooting and happens during the movement phase, you can.

azazel the cat wrote:

Praxiss wrote:Someone mentioned earlier that CCBs can sweep attack into close combat.......just checked the codex and it doesn't say anythgin about it.

Is this one of those situations where you can do it because there is nothing that says you can't?

Alsocan't see anything to support thsi in the FAQ.

Because it is not sooting and happens during the movement phase, you can.

Key phrase is you can't target a unit in CC. Sweep attacks don't target units. They can definitely be used against enemies in CC.

Why would he run X2 10 man tac squads in stormravens, that's a terrible choice for a BA army?

You can run 10 man assault squads and remove their jump packs and get a 35pt discount on the raven.

He can also get a priest in there as well plus the squad can have X2 melta's or flamers and the sarge weapon (Nasty squad and cheaper than the tac).

This is what I would do and this may be what he is planning to do.

Also DC are a really expensive choice and often fail because of rage and cant score.

The only reason I would take them is to get their Dreadnought which is awesome.

I am really skeptical about the list he presented. This guy considering the way you explain him, sounds like he is presenting a list so that you tailor your army to it and then plays a variation of the list which you are not prepared for.

Building a balanced lists is the best way to go.

As a side note he only has 2 objective scoring units in his list and at 2K that is way short. This is very much advantageous to you.

As stated above. X2 Lanceteks groups paired with a Chronotek should ruin his day. Proxy to make up numbers if you don't have the models cause you are still building an army.

Bring down the SR's as a priority,

Once the SR's go down the DC can be kited and the 10 man squads taken apart from range.

No discount on the SR. The discount only applies to dedicated transports, the SR is a HS choice.

Still agree as to why Tac squads though.

Ended up a draw. he brought a different...MUCH worse list though (worse for him that is).

battle report is here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/451021.page

Good on ya for not losing. I suspected the list he 'showed' you was a ringer to try and get you to tailor.

One of my very regular opponents is a TFG dark eldar player who always makes his list after me. Quite curious, eh?

It's weird as, if he had brought the original List, he would have doe better. The list he brought was toss! i'm amazed it was 2000, he must have given his HQ choice some serious kit...but if he did he failed to use any of it.

His Libby only used one spell the entire game and that was to give his unit an invul save.

Yeah i just jumped over and read his army list -it really is a mixed bag. Any BA player who uses Tactical Marines is not too great at list building, in my personal opinion. If he wanted extra special/heavy weapons he could have taken 5 man sternguard units for less points (and also got their cool special ammo).

Nice battle report. I like the powerpoint diagrams.

Both players made some big mistakes - he in deployment and list, you in the handling. He should have deployed everything and gotten into assault as quickly as possible. Letting half his army be shot to pieces while his CC hangs in reserve is especially weak against shooty lists.

You should have been far more aggressive with the CCB. No point to take it if you are not willing to use it as it is designed to be. Sweep the tacticals, then dismount and charge the LR. Autohits on immobilized. You would have blown it up, freeing up the heavy destroyers.

Scarabs should not be thrown into CC with anything but vehicles, unless there is something horrid needing to be tarpitted. They get 3+ cover saves against the plasma and besides, if they get shot instead of the warriors or immortals, then the latter survive longer to shoot up the tacticals. Assaulting the tacticals meant you got tied down instead of entropic striking the vehicles and then could not shoot the tacticals with your warriors and immortals. So, double bad. Just because the baal predator moved 12 does not mean you should not assault it. You get 5 attacks per base, so for 10 bases you get 50 attacks and 8 sixes. His armor drops by 4, so now you have 8 hits of S4 (with FC) vs AV6. That should give you at least 4 pens and 2 glances. That's one dead predator. Always mathhammer it if in doubt.

If the heavy destroyers had not been tied up finishing off the LR or dying to the pred, you could have slung them around and shot up the sanguinaries in the open with S9 AP2. Then they would not have munched your warriors.

The warriors and lanceteks in the ark should have shot up the predator, not the tacticals. Why waste lances on tacticals in cover?

The home warriors should have been reserved to walk onto the home objective. No point to camp it since turn 1. it gives you the flexibility to send them elsewhere as needed.

With the above changes, you would have won the game.