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Ailaros wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Vulkan would be one... for an irrelevant relative cost increase.

As I said...

Ailaros wrote:or when you underestimate their cost.

For 45 more points than a captain with a relic blade and a storm shield, you basically get a heavy flamer. That and a small percentage of your weapons become +1/3rd killer for the loss of combat tactics. If you don't see why losing combat tactics is bad, then you're seriously underestimating the cost of vulkan.

Combat tactics is a fun little special rule, but it's grossly being overestimated.

First, it only applies if you've been put into a situation where you have to take a test, and usually in such situations you don't want to fail it.

When you do, it's usefulness is usually on very fast squads that can choose to fail tests against shooting (e.g. Bikes) to avoid getting assaulted/quickly reposition and the like, but most of the time you don't want to fall back against shooting with most squads and if you chose to lose combat then you have much greater chances that you're either going to get caught (as with the vast majority of armies in the game Init's lower than I4 are the exception and equal init opposing units have a greater chance of sweeping than you do of getting away) and simply fight on thanks to ATSKNF, or you're not going to be able to get more than 6" away and stand a good chance of being escorted off the table or charged again as opposed to being able to get away.

Sometimes it might be worth it even if you continue falling back if you're far enough away to give you time to destroy the attacking unit before you fall off the table, but rarely and highly subjective.

It's usefulness is situational in the extreme and will quite often never come up at all in many games.

Getting to swap that to enhance the capabilities of your primary infantry based tank hunting and infantry clearing weapons as well as enhancing the capabilities of your primary deathstar unit is far more than a fair trade. At least one if not all of these weapons will be utilized, often on every single turn of the game.

Which is why you see vulkan a lot. There are a lot of SM commanders who don't understand their codex and so think of giving up combat tactics for chapter tactics as a free upgrade.

Because in many cases it is. Combat tactics is highly situational and highly variable in its effectiveness, while twin linking meltaweapons, flamer weapons, and rerolling hits with thunderhammers, weapons which at least two of the three are likely present in any given list if not all 3 and at least 1 in large numbers, will pay off far more consistently and noticeably, often every single turn of a game.

Not that there aren't people who want to play salamanders, or who know the cost, but take it anyways, but I would bet a big majority of SM players literally don't know what they're missing when they take vulkan.

Methinks you're making far too much of Combat Tactics. It's nice, but it's not useful every game, and it's utilized even less. That alone is enough to ditch it. Given how often it ends up not doing what you want it to do on top of that, it's a no-brainer for most armies.


Lets not forget that for 30pts Vulkan not only gets his army wide abilities and a Heavy Flamer, but also a TL'd heavy flamer, a wound reroll and a to-hit reroll.


And I guess I'll leave off on this. Since the SM codex came out in 2008, I have never seen Combat Tactics change the ultimate outcome of a game or feature significantly into anyone's playstyle/battle plan.

Not once in 4 years at probably three dozen tournaments and several different metro areas and about seven or eight stores/clubs and god knows how many games.

I can count on one hand the number of times I've ever seen it used to any degree of success with fingers to spare, while I have seen Vulkan's ability used to great success and actively change game results on repeated occasions.

To me, that says something. Granted, it's subjective anecdotal evidence so take that as one will, but it's a lot more actual experience than most people in this hobby have (Note: Not meant to imply any lack of experience on anyone's part, only that it's a lot more than the average player)

And as already pointed out, it's Vulkan's abilities that raise Codex Marines to the top of the second tier.

You already pay a penalty, it's called playing Codex Space Marines rather than Codex Blue Blood Angels.

As for the suggested penalties? Complete rubbish. -1 initiative as a penalty for living on a high gravity is complete nonsense. +1 initiative would be a more accurate penalty. Imperial Fists are a Codex army equal to the Ultramarines, they would never be short of equipment. Likewise the Ravenguard are not recorded as being short of equipment.

Farsight is an anachronism, a reminder of the days when GW forced you to play your army a certain way. Today is all about choice.

As for the suggested penalties? Complete rubbish. -1 initiative as a penalty for living on a high gravity is complete nonsense. +1 initiative would be a more accurate penalty.

Because the ogryn turned out as super speedy monsters!

Wait..

To put it accurately, one becomes denser on a high gravity planet. The density would drag them down since they would need to be in order to survive.

There already is a penalty for SCs... cost. The only penalty I would entertain would be increasing their costs to reflect their special abilities (well, and nerfing Mephiston).

I do not use SC in my games. I do play against people with SC.

I personally feel that most SC are undercosted. Im all for flavour and extra abilities etc... just make sure the points cost is RIGHT.

Everyone agrees Vulkan is OP for his points costs. Add another 100 pts to his price tag and all of a sudden he might be about right.

MOST of GW's special characters are OP for their cost in points. I dont see why they cant release an Errata on all the SC's to fix the points costs... actually I cant see why GW dont errata half of 5E but whatever lol

Milisim wrote:
Everyone agrees Vulkan is OP for his points costs. Add another 100 pts to his price tag and all of a sudden he might be about right.

At 295 points no one would by Vulkan. I'm also not entirely convinced he's "OP" for his points cost, it's more that a beatstick Captain on his own isn't a very good choice.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote: Likewise the Ravenguard are not recorded as being short of equipment.

I don't normally pick on someone for something they say fluffwise, but lolwut? The Raven Guard are short on people and materiels, have been since they were on the receiving end of some chaotic fun times at Istvaan. It would make perfect sense for them to lose a HS but gain a FA or something like that, hell that (or something very similar) was part of their rules in the last SM codex.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

As for the suggested penalties? Complete rubbish. -1 initiative as a penalty for living on a high gravity is complete nonsense. +1 initiative would be a more accurate penalty.

Because the ogryn turned out as super speedy monsters!

Wait..

To put it accurately, one becomes denser on a high gravity planet. The density would drag them down since they would need to be in order to survive.

On a high gravity world your smallest stumble can be bone breaking, so selection favours those with faster reflexes. Constantly working against heavier gravity means muscles will be stronger too compared to a normal gravity world. Though strength and speed would not exceed human peaks, they would be biased far closer to those peaks than people living on Earth normal planets.

One does not become "denser". It is a physical impossibility for human tissues to become "denser" beyond the compression of tissues due to higher surrounding pressure. One becomes heavier in high gravity, which requires greater strength to move, but one does not become "denser."

Ogryns are a fantasy icon transplanted to the 40k universe. The reality is that high gravity would favour short, muscular, fast, humans, not oversized slow monstrosities.


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motyak wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote: Likewise the Ravenguard are not recorded as being short of equipment.

I don't normally pick on someone for something they say fluffwise, but lolwut? The Raven Guard are short on people and materiels, have been since they were on the receiving end of some chaotic fun times at Istvaan. It would make perfect sense for them to lose a HS but gain a FA or something like that, hell that (or something very similar) was part of their rules in the last SM codex.

You mean they're still short handed after 10,000 years?

Ultramarines rebuilt their entire first company in less than 500.

There have been entire Chapters founded and fully equipped in a matter of centuries.

I don't normally pick on someone for something they say fluffwise, but lolwut?

To quote Index Astartes.

"As far as can be ascertained, the Salamanders' gene-seed appears to be stable and as yet uncorrupted. The reflexes of Salamanders Space Marines are not a fast as those of other Chapters, although they are still quick when suited in power armour. However, it is unknown whether this defect is due to a problem in the gene-seed, being raised on a high gravity world, or the Chapter's doctrine against hastiness and impetuosity."

Salamanders are slower than other marines, its been that way for years. What else would people want other than having your most effective weapons twin linked? Should Reinforced Ceramite be brought back too? Or the option for signums and artificer armour for everyone?


Raven Guard don't use many vehicles. Again to quote Index Astartes.

Since the Horus Heresy, the Raven Guard have come to rely on their infantry, and have never made use of armoured vehicles to the extent of other Chapters

Therefore they couldn't select more HS choices than FA. They could also add +1 to reserves rolls when there were any scouts on he table.

People claim that Chapters don't really need their own codexes, if their Chapter specific SCs made them into distinct separate armies would his not mean all marine armies were the same.

Thanks to the Codex Astartes they are pretty much the same.

And to say that Raven Guard don't use armoured vehicles as readily as other Chapters doesn't mean that they don't have the option. It just means they prefer not to, something that is completely replicable by the player using the codex.

Salamanders being "slower" than other marines may be fluff, but it doesn't mean they're as slow as a normal human. A doctrine against haste might explain it, but with uncorrupted geneseed, and a high gravity world, they should still be initiative 4.

To quote myself,

Today is all about choice.

You mean that the cost of some of these guys isn't enough of a disadvantage? And the fact that they will become bullet- or blob-magnets as soon as they hit the field? Just lewrn how to deal with them and move on. This hobby will never go anywhere if we refuse to play someo e because they used a tough special character.

And why has no one brought up Lysander?

I like the way meph has been brought up time and time again.
Of course he is strong, your paying the price for a landraider/monolith for him!

However, his drawback is the lack of a ++ save.
No character is perfect when it comes to simple hammer characters.
Every single one has a flaw or 2.



Vect for DE.
Nice rules and all, but LR points again.
Now, if you want him on the dais, thats nearly the same again.
Oh, and you need to have 9 other models in it to use it -_-

Lelith - ton of PW attacks, quick, but T3 and no EW.

Drazhar - kind of like lelith but tougher, but no ++ save LR points yet again.





Its mainly force multiplier characters that push limits of sanity like eldrad and stormlord.
Alas, learn your targets better and focus more fire / tarpit them.

You dont complain when you see 3 landraiders hit the board.

But hey, i could field drazhar, or, i could field this:

5 trueborn; 4 blasters, dracon with blast pistol. - 140
Venom; 2x splinter cannon - 65

Less points and a ton more use.

I usually see SC's as a sink in points for a list.
I rather see 200 odd points thrown into a character that has flaws than the same cost invested in melta or lascannons.

Coming from a salamanders player who always fields Vulkan (cuz lets face it, without him i'm running ultramarines in green. :( ) I agree with the OP that armies should have negatives as well as positives, BUT I don't think it should be connected to the leader, i think it should just be part of your army. I would like to ALWAYS be a salamander, not just when Vulkan can make it to the field. Would Vulkan ALWAYS fight with the salamanders in the fluff? No, in fact, he barely ever fights with them, he's almost always off on his own searching for the remnants of the primarch Vulkan, so why is he in every little skirmish I have? It makes no sense. And yes, for the record I would still run Vulkan as my HQ in higher point games, even if I already had the bonuses he gives.

Now, I know someone (probably a lot of people) will have a problem with me wanting TL meltas and such for free, but I would ask, what price do BA, GK or SW have to pay in order to be the chapter they want to be? I don't think Salamanders deserve their own codex or anything, but maybe just a page in the next SM codex for each major chapter in Vanilla (Salamanders, IF, White scars...)

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:

motyak wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote: Likewise the Ravenguard are not recorded as being short of equipment.

I don't normally pick on someone for something they say fluffwise, but lolwut? The Raven Guard are short on people and materiels, have been since they were on the receiving end of some chaotic fun times at Istvaan. It would make perfect sense for them to lose a HS but gain a FA or something like that, hell that (or something very similar) was part of their rules in the last SM codex.

You mean they're still short handed after 10,000 years?

Ultramarines rebuilt their entire first company in less than 500.

There have been entire Chapters founded and fully equipped in a matter of centuries.

I don't normally pick on someone for something they say fluffwise, but lolwut?

dæl wrote:Also I would like to be able to match SCs overall abilities, like the Eldrad thing, so if you wanted to spend the points you could get a farseer that can cast as many spells. Obvoiusly characters would need something different, not necessarily better, but different.

Sorry, this makes no sense... you want to be able to build generic characters that match the special characters' abilities... but you want the special characters to still have different abilities...?

insaniak wrote:

dæl wrote:Also I would like to be able to match SCs overall abilities, like the Eldrad thing, so if you wanted to spend the points you could get a farseer that can cast as many spells. Obvoiusly characters would need something different, not necessarily better, but different.

Sorry, this makes no sense... you want to be able to build generic characters that match the special characters' abilities... but you want the special characters to still have different abilities...?

Most spells a farseer can cast is 2.
Eldrad can cast 3.
Eldrad has Divination as well.

Why not give Eldrad another unique spell, but allow someone who wishes to pay the points have a farseer who can cast 3 spells? This is why even though from Ultwe, and he's dead he seems to be involved in half the skirmishes the Eldar of all craftworlds are involved in.

dæl wrote:Why not give Eldrad another unique spell, but allow someone who wishes to pay the points have a farseer who can cast 3 spells?

Because then you would be asking how come regular Farseers can't cast Eldrad's unique spell...

Being able to cast 3 spells a turn is what makes Eldrad unique.

No. Divination, being able to cast the same spell twice and having a power weapon are what make Eldrad unique. Notice I wasn't asking for any of those.

edit: and a 3++ save

dæl wrote:No. Divination, being able to cast the same spell twice and having a power weapon...

...and being able to cast 3 powers in a turn...

are what make Eldrad unique.

Notice I wasn't asking for any of those.

You weren't?

dæl wrote:Also I would like to be able to match SCs overall abilities,

Because it sort of sounds like you were.

insaniak wrote: it sort of sounds like you were.

Yeah, I would like to be able to match the overall level of power of an SC, like the amount of powers being cast.
But SCs should be unique in specific powers, abilities.

Apologise if my language was ambiguous. How often are people seeing Eldrad. He's almost an auto-pick, but if you could have a 3 powers Farseer without the pw, 3++, double up on spells, and deployment shenanigans, how much less prevalent would he be?

Mongooli wrote:Coming from a salamanders player who always fields Vulkan (cuz lets face it, without him i'm running ultramarines in green. :( )

That's because that's what they are. They're a codex adherent chapter, whose only real differences comes organisationally (7 larger companies compared to 10) and tactically (they use less fast attack units like bikes, assault squads and land speeders due to it being more difficult to train with the equipment on their homeworld). Their other differences are all based on equipment having a higher level of artifice due to every Salamander maintaining and customising his own equipment.

The old Armageddon codex list came the closest to capturing them, and hey, what were the differences in that? Exactly as above. Less fast attack, access to artificer armour and master crafted weapons for sergeants, more esoteric equipment like signums being available to tactical squads, tacical squads being able to take a second flamer, and assault squads having access to a flamer. They had an I3 penalty added, which I didn't mind, though the part someone quoted above doesn't justify it. I3 is human slow. Salamanders are still fast in power armour.

The Armageddon list was the best representation since it was - like Salamanders - green Ultramarines with access to more master crafted stuff and esoteric equipment and a few more flamers scattered around. Vulkan shows Wards shallow view of them - flamers and hammers and meltas herp derp. They're more than that, but it's just harder to actually represent it. If you wanted green Marines that aren't green Ultramarines, you should have gone with Dark Angels.

So if he was bad and fareseers were better, he would be uncommon.

I guess that's true.

Unreg1stered wrote:So if he was bad and fareseers were better, he would be uncommon.

I guess that's true.

If he was as good as he is now, but farseers were closer, he would be less common

Do people really not understand what I'm getting at, or are they being deliberately obtuse?
How would not changing Eldrad make him bad? How would a farseer with none of his unique abilities be better than him?

The other thing too that makes Vulkan Under Costed is that I could put a railgun through his head and his whole army still gets the re reolls... If they lose it with his death that would be better...

As a Tau player If I was mental and took the Space Pope and he died, I get a negative to that and a huge one at that.. Vulkan Chapter Master dies and everyone just carries on rerolling and plinking away. Part of that is what also makes him undercosted.

It would be an interesting concept to have ZERO special characters in games under 2000 pts. Since there is no reason for all these famous champions being in a skirmish with a few rag tag armies running around.

Milisim wrote:The other thing too that makes Vulkan Under Costed is that I could put a railgun through his head and his whole army still gets the re reolls... If they lose it with his death that would be better...

As a Tau player If I was mental and took the Space Pope and he died, I get a negative to that and a huge one at that.. Vulkan Chapter Master dies and everyone just carries on rerolling and plinking away. Part of that is what also makes him undercosted.

It would be an interesting concept to have ZERO special characters in games under 2000 pts. Since there is no reason for all these famous champions being in a skirmish with a few rag tag armies running around.

Vulkan isn't the chapter master.
Also the armies flamers aren't just magically made better by his presence.
They represent modifications made by the Salamanders to their favourite weapons.
SM place a lot of faith in their commanders, killing one is likely to have the opposite effect in them as it does Tau since SM are trained to a much higher degree, that said it is possible to demoralise them to the point where they must pull back to regroup...
The way i imagine most games of 40k is that it is a small part of a much larger battle.
Your 500/1000 point army may be only be fighting a small part of a much larger battle.

No Milisim...Nooooo! I don't want the points bracket of regular 40K games to rise that far....noooooooo.

Even though you are right, why the feth would calgar/creed/anyone really rock up to a 1500 point game.

Wasn't the Nightbringer only allowed in battles over a certain points cost once?

Tau SC still are limited in points

motyak wrote:Tau SC still are limited in points

Is that because they are too powerful for 500-1000 pt games? Unlike mephiston

dæl wrote:

motyak wrote:Tau SC still are limited in points

Is that because they are too powerful for 500-1000 pt games? Unlike mephiston

Old codex.
Though in terms of how many models they can get killed technically Tau SC are among the deadliest...