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Yeah, any unit within 6". Librarians are the way to go though for BA, Seth...he has his uses but there are better models. I do think he's underappreciated.

Titan Atlas wrote:Yeah, any unit within 6". Librarians are the way to go though for BA, Seth...he has his uses but there are better models. I do think he's underappreciated.

I don't want a big overpowered list i want something fun to play i think seth meets that, his rule of geting a str 4 attack back on nay 1 is pretty cool and he's cheap points wise even though the str 8 attacksaren't power weapons at least he has rending .. plus i like the actual look of the model so having buoght it i'd want to use it

He's really a fun guy, and I like him. I also like Dante, but I do feel weird when I field Mephiston. It was called a noob crutch when I was using him, and it's sorta true. Seth would be uber fun in a unit of HG or something, and then you would obviously want them in a transport, for clear reasons.

I think that's my only problem with him, he is pretty worthwhile as a character but can't keep up with other fast characters like Mephy, Dante, and Astorath.

I like Dante, but even if I was playing Blood Angels I would never use his magic mask. This is 40k, not Fantasy.

haha, his mask is hilarious, although I doubt I'll get to make much use very often of his death mask ability unless I faced more armies with lower leadership more often

Titan Atlas wrote:haha, his mask is hilarious, although I doubt I'll get to make much use very often of his death mask ability unless I faced more armies with lower leadership more often

most armies with low Ld you usually don't need it on anyway.

yeah, pretty much lol, although it'll help just in case to prevent a nasty retaliation by reducing WS to 1

Vaktathi wrote:The issue is twofold. While often SC's are overcosted drek, sometimes the SC's are simply overdone and are overcapable for their points or offer a capability that is highly abuseable and/or doesn't scale properly, and are probably the best exemplars of awful game design 40k has to offer.

Which is actually exactly the same as in magic. Legends sometimes get to be overpowered/extremely abusable rules because they can only be used once at any given time. Other simply suck.
If any characters are actually overpowered(which I doubt, even considering the two most argued about in this thread), that's not a problem of special characters. Long fangs and purifiers aren't special characters either

Second, legendary heroes and mighty warlords don't appear all the time at every skirmish against every foe

I see that tossed around a lot. So you would really prefer blank, generic and story-less Goff Warlords, Reincarnated Librarians, Salamander Chapter Masters Captains, Lord Comissars from Armageddon or High Seers of Ulthwé over "Ghazghkull Thrakka", "Mephiston", "Vulcan He'stan", "Yarrik" or "Eldrad Ulthran", which each have stories to tell, appear in novels and maybe get to face off against their eternal arch-enemy across the board? Personally, I think fielding such a legendary hero is much more fun than fielding an overcosted generic something.

And a skirmish is only unimportant if you make it so. Besides that, even Draigo doesn't just teleport in to kill the highest demon princes and leave immediately after, he will be slaughtering rather unimportant "heretical" guardsmen from time to time, too.

Vulkan He'stan never has been and probably never will be Chapter Master.

Mea culpa, got him mixed up with Pedro Kantor. He is a captain, of course.

Since I'm in nitpicking TFG mode already: he WAS a Captain.

Which is largely irrelevant, as his equivalent would still be a captain, ruleswise.

Jidmah wrote:Which is largely irrelevant, as his equivalent would still be a captain, ruleswise.

It's important to make the distinction though, as Vulkan arguably doesn't unlock a Command Squad, as he's not a Captain.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Jidmah wrote:Which is largely irrelevant, as his equivalent would still be a captain, ruleswise.

It's important to make the distinction though, as Vulkan arguably doesn't unlock a Command Squad, as he's not a Captain.

You are correct.

Think about this my army cannot be fielded without a special character does this mean i should be able to use him just to appease my opponent.

Ohh and no one can call Belial OP.

captain collius wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Jidmah wrote:Which is largely irrelevant, as his equivalent would still be a captain, ruleswise.

It's important to make the distinction though, as Vulkan arguably doesn't unlock a Command Squad, as he's not a Captain.

You are correct.

Think about this my army cannot be fielded without a special character does this mean i should be able to use him just to appease my opponent.

Ohh and no one can call Belial OP.

I don't think anyone could begrudge you using Belial or Sammael as they are needed to create quite fluffy lists, the problem I have is seeing the likes of Shrike in a Ultramarines army because you can spam fleeting Assault Termies, or Fateweaver in an army of just Nurgle Deamons.

Belial is probably the most generic SC in the game.

Also, if it wasn't for Fateweaver right now Daemons wouldn't even show up to play half the time, it's bad enough as is for daemons players.

Their set back tends to be their cost.
I had a guy last night who in a 1500 list had two SC, could only field 2 troops a doom sycth, night scythe and a lychguard.
Granted he tabled me.
But it was a kill point game. It all ends up with giving you fun stull to do with but high cost.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Belial is probably the most generic SC in the game.

Also, if it wasn't for Fateweaver right now Daemons wouldn't even show up to play half the time, it's bad enough as is for daemons players.

This would imply that all the other Gods SCs are not fit for purpose. The Khorne one should be the killiest thing this side of a titan, I doubt it is otherwise people would play him. Fateweaver I would rather see in a mixed list rather than Fateweaver + all Nurgle. But then I value fluff.

dæl wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Belial is probably the most generic SC in the game.

Also, if it wasn't for Fateweaver right now Daemons wouldn't even show up to play half the time, it's bad enough as is for daemons players.

This would imply that all the other Gods SCs are not fit for purpose. The Khorne one should be the killiest thing this side of a titan, I doubt it is otherwise people would play him. Fateweaver I would rather see in a mixed list rather than Fateweaver + all Nurgle. But then I value fluff.

As a player of daemons, none of them aren't worth

Skarbrand is completely worthless, first off he loses wings, thus reducing him to a 12 assault range unlike the standard bloodthirsters 18", second he buffs up the ENEMY units as well (which is bad), he gains breath of chaos, +1 strength and attack on the standard bloodthirster, but the problem is all units in 24" gain a reroll (which can be bad) and the loss of the 6" of movement hurts him more than anything else.

Kugath does well with what he has, he can murder infantry very well, but he's far more expensive than the standard GD of nurgle, not to mention he's able to murder infantry very well like the rest of the entire army, in a meched up enviroment he's not good enough. Not to mention some of the rules for the nurgles stuff is worthless (S2 AP - Aura of Decay? Really now!?)

There's no Slaanesh SC GD

The heralds are a mix of usefulness, Skulltaker is perhaps the second most used, as he's actually pretty good (but he's not tank killy enough), and cheap enough to warrant a small place. No real use for the other heralds.

The main issue to be had is that daemons have no effective anti-tank EXCEPT their HQ slots (which is bad!) So most of the time it's used on 2-4 heralds of Tzeentch for bolts of change, fateweaver grants this, and a rerollable buff for the entire units nearby that grant them a far better save than the 5++ they often get as they are being shot up piecemeal.

If there was a way for things to hit vehicles better than on a 4+ or a 6 in melee, the other GD's might prove to be far more useful, as it is, you need bolts of change and fateweaver provides that, and a far better save for units nearby.

Jidmah wrote:
If any characters are actually overpowered(which I doubt, even considering the two most argued about in this thread), that's not a problem of special characters. Long fangs and purifiers aren't special characters either

I completely agree, and I noted as much earlier that such is not limited to SC's, however the issues with some SC's are a bit more acute as some can affect the entire army, which is different than simply being undercosted or having a broken combat rule.

I see that tossed around a lot. So you would really prefer blank, generic and story-less Goff Warlords, Reincarnated Librarians, Salamander Chapter Masters Captains, Lord Comissars from Armageddon or High Seers of Ulthwé over "Ghazghkull Thrakka", "Mephiston", "Vulcan He'stan", "Yarrik" or "Eldrad Ulthran", which each have stories to tell, appear in novels and maybe get to face off against their eternal arch-enemy across the board? Personally, I think fielding such a legendary hero is much more fun than fielding an overcosted generic something.

I'd rather field heroes of my own design and face those of my opponent really, those whose stories I can create rather than those who already have stories and which often may be put in nonsensical situation. Ghazkull fights on Armageddon against the Imperial Guard and occaisionally the Space Marines, he's not facing, and never has faced, the Tau or Warmaster Abaddon for example.


Likewise, I have a hard time seeing Vulkan He'Stan as anything but a powergamey crutch, much less a mighty hero of the Imperium, given how casually and how often he is (was before many jumped to Space Wolves) fielded by anyone and everyone. Any semblance of cool factor in that regard was destroyed in very short order. I've never seen anyone field him for his fluff or background, he's there because he makes all their special weapons significantly more effective and their deathstar killier. I think I've seen him in Salamanders green...once? Maybe twice? Both armies built around abusing his special rules as much as possible and not longtime sallies players.

And a skirmish is only unimportant if you make it so. Besides that, even Draigo doesn't just teleport in to kill the highest demon princes and leave immediately after, he will be slaughtering rather unimportant "heretical" guardsmen from time to time, too.

I doubt it, given that he's apparently sucked back into the warp after each battle or whatnot, and I doubt he'd remain behind to do that, that's for others and orbital bombardments. I certainly doubt he's setting up for a pitched battle against the Imperial Guard like I so often see him

i would argue that many of the older codicies simply lack good SC's
Templars- No one (that i have seen)
Tau-Never seen one
Eldar-Eldrad (never see yriel or phoenix lords)
DA-Sammael Belial (a few use Azrael and Ezekial)
Orks-Ghazghkul sp? (the rest are only used if they wanna have fun)
CSM-only for fun games
Deamons- Fateweaver Skulltaker (the rest are meh)

then when you get to 5E codicies
SM:Shrike Vulkan Telion lysander
IG: Marbo Al'Rahem Yarrick Straken (am i missing anyone)
SW:Njal Logan Arjac Canis Bjorn
Nids: Doom and Swarmlord
Blood Angels: Astorath Mephiston Lemartes Dante Gabriel Seth
DE: Duke Siliscus, Baron Sathonyx, Lelith, i'm sure there are others
GK(the abuse): Coteaz Draigo Crowe Mordrak Thrawn others
SOB: Uriah and Celestine
Necrons: Imotekh Zahndrekh Obryon Szeras Trayzn

Notice a pattern?

I wouldn't mind seeing a rule where if you kill one of these all encompassing SCs you get an extra KP. I mean killing the single most powerful psyker the Eldar race has to offer should be slightly more tactically significant then routing a dozen grots.

It also might be cool to have a Bjorn like rule for special characters where if they go down their body becomes an objective that only your opponent could benefit from.

SOB: Uriah and Celestine

And kyranov. He's just not as good as the other two, but still folds ahead of the normal IC's.

Helbig wrote:I It also might be cool to have a Bjorn like rule for special characters where if they go down their body becomes an objective that only your opponent could benefit from.

Maybe not this, but I'd like to see something along those lines... you can contest your fallen HQ "corpse" (or remove him with an apothecary or the like) but the enemy can swipe the corpse for an extra KP and/or and extra objective.

I suppose after giving out about using special characters as a different chapter I should admit my Raven Guard list i'm putting together includes Telion, but as its RG it has a couple of scout squads, and he seems to fit. So I guess I'm kind of guilty of hypocrisy. It also includes Korvydae, so as I can load up on assault squads as well as speeders, would I still take him if he restricted access to other parts of the codex, say 0-1 tanks with combined armour 33 or over. Yes, but its not going to be a super competitive list, it's not meant to be. Would I prefer it if taking a captain with a jump pack unlocked assault squads, absolutely, because even with Korvydae coming from RG I'd still rather build my own character.

@ZebioLizard2 the Aura of Decay seems like it might be useful if it were board wide and happened each of your turns.

@ZebioLizard2 the Aura of Decay seems like it might be useful if it were board wide and happened each of your turns.

That it would, but as it is, it's weaker than the Chaos Space Marine Codex version. (S3), both 6" ranges and can be used in combat.

So apparently a Greater Deamon of Nurgle is Weaker and Less toxic than a standard plague sorcerer/lord.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

SOB: Uriah and Celestine

And kyranov. He's just not as good as the other two, but still folds ahead of the normal IC's.

Sorrya and as blanket statement i listed those i have noticed if you wanna iclude anyone else go ahead

captain collius wrote:Orks-Ghazghkul sp? (the rest are only used if they wanna have fun)

With two L, but otherwise nailed it

Mad Doc Grotznik, Ol'Zogwort, Snikrot and Wazzdakka Gutzmek see a fair amount of play, too, and two of those don't even have official models. Zagstrukk and Badruk simply lose out because their units aren't exactly great, the models themselves, in a vacuum. are.

using Snikrot with Ghazghkull makes Ghazzy even more epic, not to mention Snikrot and his mob of Kommandos is fun as well