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I think it is 1500 or larger they are allowed in. Didn't everyone in an old codex have limits like that?

Used to be they could only be used with opponents consent, a bit like FW stuff. Some people had views they a bit like they do with FW now about overpoweredness too. Looked through my 3rd ed Eldar codex and Eldrad is 2000+, and the others are with opponents consent, except the Phoenix Lords.

motyak wrote:I think it is 1500 or larger they are allowed in. Didn't everyone in an old codex have limits like that?

That's gone now. They're just regular entries now.

All SCs have a weak spot. You just have to find it. I killed Meph and an assault squad in a battle mission game. The only thing they killed. A whirlwind. If you charge the squad he's with, they have NO chance. Then get a SC in B2B contact.

Draigo is more problematic. But equally useless. Bog him down with a horde, or even better, shoot him with some nice AP1 weapons.

Its just the same as deathstar units, only its a model in this case.

Doctadeth wrote:All SCs have a weak spot. You just have to find it. I killed Meph and an assault squad in a battle mission game. The only thing they killed. A whirlwind. If you charge the squad he's with, they have NO chance. Then get a SC in B2B contact.

Draigo is more problematic. But equally useless. Bog him down with a horde, or even better, shoot him with some nice AP1 weapons.

Its just the same as deathstar units, only its a model in this case.

Dude, mephy can't be in a squad, he's not an IC. You got robbed.

And its true, focus fire/attention can get rid of lots of SCs, but its easier when they are loners (like mephy) than ICs (like Draigo). Hell, the unit draigo is normally with (pallies) sees you normally put the S8+ Ap1-2 weaponry on him, so the men are saved.

The special characters that are force multipliers are the culprit here, as well as the silliness of agreeing to a 500 point game where someone would be allowed to field Abbadon or Mephy. (Just agree to not play that).

Vulkan could be simply a commander with no special wargear and would be taken in exactly as many marine armies... why? Because a Vulkan army suddenly maxes out his benefit, and if your not then your not trying hard enough. Any GK player taking Crowe, Coteaz or Draigo MIGHT be taking them for fluff, however you will invariably seeing their other power which switches around things. Stormlord falls somewhat into this category although his ability relies on larger games to give him more targets to zappy.

Few people have issues with the landraider-costed beatsticks most army books have.

lazarian wrote:The special characters that are force multipliers are the culprit here, as well as the silliness of agreeing to a 500 point game where someone would be allowed to field Abbadon or Mephy. (Just agree to not play that).

Vulkan could be simply a commander with no special wargear and would be taken in exactly as many marine armies... why? Because a Vulkan army suddenly maxes out his benefit, and if your not then your not trying hard enough. Any GK player taking Crowe, Coteaz or Draigo MIGHT be taking them for fluff, however you will invariably seeing their other power which switches around things. Stormlord falls somewhat into this category although his ability relies on larger games to give him more targets to zappy.

Few people have issues with the landraider-costed beatsticks most army books have.

Because most of the landraider-costed beatsticks aren't worth it, abbadon is to expensive and to slow with the ability to hit himself on a 1, and Typhus is..not worth it thanks to lack of EW

There's very few 250+ that are worth it without a force modifier (Except maybe that forgeworld 250+ Tau commander with all the really nice weaponry)

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

lazarian wrote:The special characters that are force multipliers are the culprit here, as well as the silliness of agreeing to a 500 point game where someone would be allowed to field Abbadon or Mephy. (Just agree to not play that).

Vulkan could be simply a commander with no special wargear and would be taken in exactly as many marine armies... why? Because a Vulkan army suddenly maxes out his benefit, and if your not then your not trying hard enough. Any GK player taking Crowe, Coteaz or Draigo MIGHT be taking them for fluff, however you will invariably seeing their other power which switches around things. Stormlord falls somewhat into this category although his ability relies on larger games to give him more targets to zappy.

Few people have issues with the landraider-costed beatsticks most army books have.

Because most of the landraider-costed beatsticks aren't worth it, abbadon is to expensive and to slow with the ability to hit himself on a 1, and Typhus is..not worth it thanks to lack of EW

There's very few 250+ that are worth it without a force modifier (Except maybe that forgeworld 250+ Tau commander with all the really nice weaponry)

Isnt that the point though? There is in existence special characters that are in fact too powerful for their point costs? Ebay would crash with the number of Salamander armies thrown on there the minute Vulkan was rebalanced removing twin linked silliness. Same thing with Crowe/Coteaz/Draigo.

lazarian wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

lazarian wrote:The special characters that are force multipliers are the culprit here, as well as the silliness of agreeing to a 500 point game where someone would be allowed to field Abbadon or Mephy. (Just agree to not play that).

Vulkan could be simply a commander with no special wargear and would be taken in exactly as many marine armies... why? Because a Vulkan army suddenly maxes out his benefit, and if your not then your not trying hard enough. Any GK player taking Crowe, Coteaz or Draigo MIGHT be taking them for fluff, however you will invariably seeing their other power which switches around things. Stormlord falls somewhat into this category although his ability relies on larger games to give him more targets to zappy.

Few people have issues with the landraider-costed beatsticks most army books have.

Because most of the landraider-costed beatsticks aren't worth it, abbadon is to expensive and to slow with the ability to hit himself on a 1, and Typhus is..not worth it thanks to lack of EW

There's very few 250+ that are worth it without a force modifier (Except maybe that forgeworld 250+ Tau commander with all the really nice weaponry)

Isnt that the point though? There is in existence special characters that are in fact too powerful for their point costs? Ebay would crash with the number of Salamander armies thrown on there the minute Vulkan was rebalanced removing twin linked silliness. Same thing with Crowe/Coteaz/Draigo.

Yes, but the opposite happening for other armies isn't exactly helping. The problem being that most of the ones often listed, are the underpriced SC movers for units that would be balanced if they stayed in their slots. (Except Henchmen, but I pine for the days of an inquisitor army myself). Purifiers are horribly costed otherwise, since you can kit out the same group as a strike squad and end up CHEAPER. Paladins are only so bad due to wound allocation and Kill Points.

Vulkan is just to far undercosted for both his benefits, and his own beatstick status in general.

Another one no one complains about is Logar and the wolf guard, as well as some others. The main issue is Purifiers are just to cheap to begin with, draigo is as expensive as abbadon but gets more special rules and abilities and a force modifier. and they all still get psyflemen as backup. While vulkans issue is that he's far to cheap for his powers and benefits.

Not far too cheap, a Captain with Vulkan's equipment would be in the region of 180 points. His ability is worth more than 10 points, but how much more?

To maximise Vulkan's ability we have to take short ranged weapons, flamer and melta, which really makes Vulkan a monobuild. Though he boosts hammernators you probably won't see them due to the cost of meching them. We also lose combat tactics.

Units which can take flamer/melta weapons?

Sternguard, good unit but gets pricey fast.
Dreadnoughts/Ironclad Dreadnoughts good units, but drop podding them in puts them in range of enemy melta in your first turn. At range you're better off with rifleman dreadnoughts, which makes you a normal Marine list.

Tactical squads, certainly these can take three melta weapons but 220 points for 10 men in a Rhino isn't exactly cheap and that's just three guns (one a single-shot).

Land Speeders, these are actually good, but again getting close with an armour 10 vehicle isn't a recipe for a long life.
Attack bikes with multi-meltas, this is a good unit too, but again, short ranged and being unmeched, fragile.
Bike Squads, unless taken as troops (necessitating a captain) these are not going to be taken when compared to Speeders and Attack Bikes.
Assault Squads, ha ha, had you going there for a minute didn't I?

Land Raiders with pintle multi-meltas. That's an expensive unit for one twin-linked weapon. If I recall correctly redeemer's inferno cannons don't benefit from Vulkan. I'm pretty sure people just take Predators anyway.

Opportunity cost is Vulkan's biggest penalty. To benefit from his rules your selection of units, and their options, is severely curtailed. If you try to take a mix of units then your main beneficiaries are tactical squads (Vulkanising makes them almost a worthwhile unit, but not quite) and Land Speeders (short-ranged, vulnerable to firepower) or Attack Bikes (short-ranged, vulnerable to firepower). Sternguard might be taken, if you can spare the points, or basic multi-melta dreadnoughts.

You could combine him with a bike army, if you felt like spending 450 points on your HQs, but as people will point out bike armies are still a second tier Space Marine list. Better just to take a Captain on bike there.

Tell me again that Pheonix lords are too powerful...

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Not far too cheap, a Captain with Vulkan's equipment would be in the region of 180 points. His ability is worth more than 10 points, but how much more?

Also, a captain with that gear is actually very far from being worth it. I would say a captain with that gear would be a competitive choice at 140ish pts, which allows +50pts for all of Vulkan's buffs. Seems fairly well balanced IMO.

It does show how horribly useless and overcosted captains are though.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Not far too cheap, a Captain with Vulkan's equipment would be in the region of 180 points. His ability is worth more than 10 points, but how much more?

To maximise Vulkan's ability we have to take short ranged weapons, flamer and melta, which really makes Vulkan a monobuild. Though he boosts hammernators you probably won't see them due to the cost of meching them. We also lose combat tactics.

Melta weapons are already the special weapon. In an era of mechanised armies and endless cover saves, where flamers need a cracked transport and plasma guns stop the unit from assaulting, melta guns are what you find by default in any squad that can take them.

Hammernators in a Land Raider are extremely common for the simple fact that they are fething fantastic for their points. For their points, they are the most durable shock assault unit in any army and hit very hard.

Vulcan makes melta weapons, and the already fantastic hammernators, far better. These are things anyone trying to be competitive with Space Marines will already have in their army. It's not about building an army around Vulcan, it's about Vulcan slotting into a competitive Space Marine army with little problem. For his points, as a force multiplier, he's a fething bargain.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Units which can take flamer/melta weapons?

Every single unit in the Space Marine list and some, if not most, vehicles. Even if a unit can't, the sergeant can take a combi weapon. Vulkan takes the risk out of combi weapons, giving you a reroll to hit (or to wound on combi flamers) single shot.

Illumini wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Not far too cheap, a Captain with Vulkan's equipment would be in the region of 180 points. His ability is worth more than 10 points, but how much more?

Also, a captain with that gear is actually very far from being worth it. I would say a captain with that gear would be a competitive choice at 140ish pts, which allows +50pts for all of Vulkan's buffs. Seems fairly well balanced IMO.

It does show how horribly useless and overcosted captains are though.

Actually I do agree with this, considering that captains are horrible. for 0 points less or more you can get a librarian with a force weapon, psyker hood, and two free abilities, and even that is overcosted a bit!

-Loki- wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Not far too cheap, a Captain with Vulkan's equipment would be in the region of 180 points. His ability is worth more than 10 points, but how much more?

To maximise Vulkan's ability we have to take short ranged weapons, flamer and melta, which really makes Vulkan a monobuild. Though he boosts hammernators you probably won't see them due to the cost of meching them. We also lose combat tactics.

Melta weapons are already the special weapon. In an era of mechanised armies and endless cover saves, where flamers need a cracked transport and plasma guns stop the unit from assaulting, melta guns are what you find by default in any squad that can take them.

Hammernators in a Land Raider are extremely common for the simple fact that they are fething fantastic for their points. For their points, they are the most durable shock assault unit in any army and hit very hard.

Vulcan makes melta weapons, and the already fantastic hammernators, far better. These are things anyone trying to be competitive with Space Marines will already have in their army. It's not about building an army around Vulcan, it's about Vulcan slotting into a competitive Space Marine army with little problem. For his points, as a force multiplier, he's a fething bargain.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Units which can take flamer/melta weapons?

Every single unit in the Space Marine list and some, if not most, vehicles. Even if a unit can't, the sergeant can take a combi weapon. Vulkan takes the risk out of combi weapons, giving you a reroll to hit (or to wound on combi flamers) single shot.

That very popularity of melta weapons means that Land Raiders are not as popular as they used to be. To get one squad across the battlefield you need 2 units, and that runs to 900 points. As for "every unit," isn't it more appropriate to actually talk about units people will take? We can debate the relative merits of flamer equipped assault squads, or multi-melta equipped devastator squads till the cows come home, but since nobody takes them such a debate would be pointless (I did forget devastator squads but then, doesn't everyone?). Yes, Vulkan boosts tactical squads (but they need it), attack bikes, land speeders and dreadnoughts (if you take short ranged variants) and Sternguard. None of those units are game breaking. Some (tactical squads) are decidedly lacklustre. Others, (Sternguard) are very expensive if you tool them up to benefit from Vulkan.

Most competitive Space Marine armies I've seen max out on rifleman dreadnoughts, Typhoon speeders and auto/las Predators. That leaves either switching to a close ranged armament (multi-melta dreads (drop pods?) and speeders) or Vulkan only boosting tactical squads. You do have to build an army to take advantage of him. That is the opportunity cost. The army that would really benefit from him (bikes) can't take him and a biker captain without having too many points tied up in HQ.

There are some interesting points here, I bet it would be in-character for Eldrad to slap you with 0-1 on all Aspect Warrior units but allow Guardians to become Black Guardians for +1 BS for additional cost or some such.

AnomanderRake wrote:There are some interesting points here, I bet it would be in-character for Eldrad to slap you with 0-1 on all Aspect Warrior units but allow Guardians to become Black Guardians for +1 BS for additional cost or some such.

Thus tying him to Ultwe type lists, me gusta. Perhaps Yriel could allow Wraithguard units of 5 + Spiritseer to become troops, but make guardians 0-1. (That might end up open for abuse though, but I expect GW would make loads of money)

lazarian wrote:
Isnt that the point though? There is in existence special characters that are in fact too powerful for their point costs? Ebay would crash with the number of Salamander armies thrown on there the minute Vulkan was rebalanced removing twin linked silliness. Same thing with Crowe/Coteaz/Draigo.

Main value in Crowe/Coteaz/Draigo is the FOC changes. Not so much in their other abilities.
Coteaz you might see still taken even if he didn't make Henchmen troops, but Crowe? Never. There's a reason he's known as "Crowe tax" in purifier armies.

Draigo might be taken, but I doubt it in any game below 2000. He is a monster, but considering that if paladins weren't troops, you'd be better off just taking either cheap inquisitor or techmarine with rad and psychotrope grenades.
So main value for these characters isn't the characters so much, but the changes they give to FOC structure.

The most obvious 'broken' special character is of course Mephiston.But even with him, any of the following changes would drop Mephiston in the "reasonable" category: T5, Size change, No wings or no Sword of Sanguinius.
T5 would make it possible to insta-kill him with S10. Size change would make it harder to hide him. Removing wings would make it possible to manouver around him. Removing Sword of Sanguinius would make it possible to tie him with Walker.

Mephiston can be handled, but it requires completely disproportionate amount of resources to deal with him.

Illumini wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Not far too cheap, a Captain with Vulkan's equipment would be in the region of 180 points. His ability is worth more than 10 points, but how much more?

Also, a captain with that gear is actually very far from being worth it. I would say a captain with that gear would be a competitive choice at 140ish pts, which allows +50pts for all of Vulkan's buffs. Seems fairly well balanced IMO.

It does show how horribly useless and overcosted captains are though.

This! Its not that Vulkan is undercosted, its the fact that the Captain is overcosted that is the problem.

motyak wrote:

Doctadeth wrote:All SCs have a weak spot. You just have to find it. I killed Meph and an assault squad in a battle mission game. The only thing they killed. A whirlwind. If you charge the squad he's with, they have NO chance. Then get a SC in B2B contact.

Draigo is more problematic. But equally useless. Bog him down with a horde, or even better, shoot him with some nice AP1 weapons.

Its just the same as deathstar units, only its a model in this case.

Dude, mephy can't be in a squad, he's not an IC. You got robbed.

And its true, focus fire/attention can get rid of lots of SCs, but its easier when they are loners (like mephy) than ICs (like Draigo). Hell, the unit draigo is normally with (pallies) sees you normally put the S8+ Ap1-2 weaponry on him, so the men are saved.

meph can't join an assault squad sure, but I thought he could include an honor guad and as a non IC he can have an expensive bubble of protection and can't be singled out .. though it does lower majority toughness for wound purposes. I've also seen an expensive 2 lightning claws, 2 th/ss, a chapter banner and an IC sang priest in termi armor attached for fnp... it was alot of points but man did thatunit pack a punch

G00fySmiley wrote:
meph can't join an assault squad sure, but I thought he could include an honor guad and as a non IC he can have an expensive bubble of protection and can't be singled out.

He can't. Mephiston unlocks Honor Guard as a unit but obviously as he is not IC, he cannot join them. Anyone trying to talk someone into letting Mephiston as upgrade character for HG is trying to cheat.

To repeat Mephiston is always alone. He cannot be member of any unit and no IC can join him. He can always be singled out in CC and shooting

Wow, forgot to check this thread.

Alright, yes, Mephiston can get cover saves, but lacking any invul save whatsoever and having utterly no protection from a unit unlike other special characters who can join units (and also have eternal warrior, but admittedly lower T) - Mephiston wounds easily if you actually concentrate some good guns on him. Sure, you have to waste some anti-tank weapons on him, but the tradeoff is that you'll have just killed 250 points of the enemy's army right there.

Any good player can handle Mephiston, and any good BA player knows not to depend on him because he will let you down in numerous ways. He can get hammered with AP2 fire and believe it or not, he will at times emerge from cover to attack the enemy when necessary, because people will not be so desperate to keep him alive that they will sacrifice his usefulness, so cover saves can't always be figured in. Again, it is rather lame to try and lean on him to do all the dirty work. But crazy enough, some armies have enough anti-tank to spare to fire away at him. Lack of invul saves makes him completely open to attacks, it is however rather stupid to assault him. Shooting is definitely the way to go, although models like the swarmlord with lash-whip guards and Ghazzy in prophet of the WAAAGH mode will absolutely destroy him in all likelihood.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Luide wrote:

G00fySmiley wrote:
meph can't join an assault squad sure, but I thought he could include an honor guad and as a non IC he can have an expensive bubble of protection and can't be singled out.

He can't. Mephiston unlocks Honor Guard as a unit but obviously as he is not IC, he cannot join them. Anyone trying to talk someone into letting Mephiston as upgrade character for HG is trying to cheat.

To repeat Mephiston is always alone. He cannot be member of any unit and no IC can join him. He can always be singled out in CC and shooting

^and what you said. Anybody who is told Mephiston can go into a unit with other models is insane and has been deceived, and this is another highlight of Mephiston's vulnerability - if he gets shot at, no human shields.

dæl wrote:

insaniak wrote: it sort of sounds like you were.

Yeah, I would like to be able to match the overall level of power of an SC, like the amount of powers being cast.
But SCs should be unique in specific powers, abilities.

Apologise if my language was ambiguous. How often are people seeing Eldrad. He's almost an auto-pick, but if you could have a 3 powers Farseer without the pw, 3++, double up on spells, and deployment shenanigans, how much less prevalent would he be?

Ya, but then technically, he would still be in every list, he just wouldnt be called eldrad.

However, I do agree with your basic point. I hate seeing the current meta play for what it is. MSU EVREHTIN AND U NO TEKS NOTIN BOT SPLEENTR CAYNOWNS!!!! If we had the ability to make our own "SC," then I would be a much happier camper.

hmm i'll have to note that fo rnext time, that seemed obsurdly powerful, fortunatly as i plan on playign my marines as blood angels for the first time ever (as in first time playing my several thousand points of marines ever) i have my blood angels codex i see gues shonor guards don't work how i thought they did and that makes the sanguinar much less appealing sadly.

I don't see why the ic can't join him though . i mean it'd be kind of rediculously expentive but it looks like you could give him a IC liek a sang priest... nto that it'd be worth the points, but looking at BA codex pg 47 meph's entry i see no restrictiions to attachign an IC to him

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:

To maximise Vulkan's ability we have to take short ranged weapons, flamer and melta, which really makes Vulkan a monobuild. Though he boosts hammernators you probably won't see them due to the cost of meching them. We also lose combat tactics.

Lets be honest, even without Vulkan, these weapons and units are some of the most popular in *ALL* SM armies, and stuff you'd take lots of anyway. C:SM armies in general, Vulkan or no, tend to load up on tons of melta and flamer weapons and TH/SS terminators are the preferred, and often considered undercosted, beatstick unit.

That's what makes Vulkan even more of a no-brainer. Because you don't need to make a mono-max-out list. You can take just about any list and throw him in, and he'll be of great benefit, because you're taking lots of flamers, melta's and quite possibly TH/SS termi's anyway.

Even non-Vulkan SM lists tend to have a dozen or more flamer/melta weapons, at say 5pts per weapon (relatively cheap) to make it Twin Linked, suddenly that's worth another 60pts that's going to greatly enhance the army's effectiveness likely more than a mere 60pts worth, not something that should be a mere 10pt upgrade (even if you accept the argument that Captains are overcosted, Vulkan is still very much undercosted). When you get armies that max that out with two or three dozen flamer/melta weapons, you're talking a significant increase in killing power for the army that's all that factoring that into Vulkan's points just doesn't work without making him more expensive than a Land Raider to properly reflect his value.



All around, he's poor game design, him and other characters like him. Not all SC's are bad by any means, but some are.

G00fySmiley wrote:
I don't see why the ic can't join him though . i mean it'd be kind of rediculously expentive but it looks like you could give him a IC liek a sang priest... nto that it'd be worth the points, but looking at BA codex pg 47 meph's entry i see no restrictiions to attachign an IC to him

You wouldn't find such rules in C:BA, because they're in BRB, page 48 to be exact. Independent characters can never join units that always consist of a single model (other IC's excluded).

Independent Characters may not join units that always consist of one model. Mephiston always consists of one models, so no IC may join him, ever. Should be in the exceptions of what ICs can join, in the BRB.

Personally, I don't get the fuss about special characters, seems like a historical thing to me. In magic, the equivalent of those are legends, who are characters with a story and some of them even get mentioned on other cards, rather than your generic creature. When you play them you don't have some sacrifical meat, but a character with actual fluff in front of you. Same in WH40k: It's just much more awesome if you field Ghazghkull Thrakka, the Beast of Argmageddon, Prophet of the Waaagh! rather than Goff Warlord /w Mega Armor, PK, BP, Big Shoota. Same for Vulcan He'Stan vs Salamander Captain or Mephiston vs Reincarnated Librarian.

The should use the blood bowl rule though. If both sides use the same Special Character, it simply doesn't show up

Jidmah wrote:

Personally, I don't get the fuss about special characters, seems like a historical thing to me. In magic, the equivalent of those are legends, who are characters with a story and some of them even get mentioned on other cards, rather than your generic creature. When you play them you don't have some sacrifical meat, but a character with actual fluff in front of you.

The issue is twofold. While often SC's are overcosted drek, sometimes the SC's are simply overdone and are overcapable for their points or offer a capability that is highly abuseable and/or doesn't scale properly, and are probably the best exemplars of awful game design 40k has to offer. Second, legendary heroes and mighty warlords don't appear all the time at every skirmish against every foe

Vaktathi wrote:

Jidmah wrote:

Personally, I don't get the fuss about special characters, seems like a historical thing to me. In magic, the equivalent of those are legends, who are characters with a story and some of them even get mentioned on other cards, rather than your generic creature. When you play them you don't have some sacrifical meat, but a character with actual fluff in front of you.

The issue is twofold. While often SC's are overcosted drek, sometimes the SC's are simply overdone and are overcapable for their points or offer a capability that is highly abuseable and/or doesn't scale properly, and are probably the best exemplars of awful game design 40k has to offer. Second, legendary heroes and mighty warlords don't appear all the time at every skirmish against every foe

Uriah Jacobs is so badass he can appear in twenty different locations fighting heretics while being dead. That is the true power of faith!

Luide wrote:

G00fySmiley wrote:
I don't see why the ic can't join him though . i mean it'd be kind of rediculously expentive but it looks like you could give him a IC liek a sang priest... nto that it'd be worth the points, but looking at BA codex pg 47 meph's entry i see no restrictiions to attachign an IC to him

You wouldn't find such rules in C:BA, because they're in BRB, page 48 to be exact. Independent characters can never join units that always consist of a single model (other IC's excluded).

Jidmah wrote:Independent Characters may not join units that always consist of one model. Mephiston always consists of one models, so no IC may join him, ever. Should be in the exceptions of what ICs can join, in the BRB.

Personally, I don't get the fuss about special characters, seems like a historical thing to me. In magic, the equivalent of those are legends, who are characters with a story and some of them even get mentioned on other cards, rather than your generic creature. When you play them you don't have some sacrifical meat, but a character with actual fluff in front of you. Same in WH40k: It's just much more awesome if you field Ghazghkull Thrakka, the Beast of Argmageddon, Prophet of the Waaagh! rather than Goff Warlord /w Mega Armor, PK, BP, Big Shoota. Same for Vulcan He'Stan vs Salamander Captain or Mephiston vs Reincarnated Librarian.

The should use the blood bowl rule though. If both sides use the same Special Character, it simply doesn't show up

good to know, thanks i've been playing for a year and 4 months now and if the upcomg 6th actually happens i swear i won't have all of the 5th edition rules sunk in before then. though if he is within 6 " of a sang priest meph would still get the blood chalace coverrage for fnp right? . just curious for when i play against him. with my blood angels i plan to go with a librarian for chepness or gabriel seth