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juraigamer wrote:

labmouse42 wrote:
Though at 150 points, I'm still leary on how much good that model will do. Even with all its special tricks, it just dies to a stiff breeze.

If the stormtalon is a FA unit, I will drop them with my two ironclad dreads. It's kinda hard for the opponents to not shoot the dread when it's in your face.

It's easy to ignore the stormtalon though.

ShumaGorath wrote:I think it also allows the vehicle to move 12" and fire all guns which is important for deep striking.

That's Aerial Assault.

Lokas wrote:Why the hell are all the new flyers as quick as the Dark Eldar vehicles?

Aren't we supposed to be the fastest around?

"Speed" went down the drain the moment the IG codex was released. These days your codex doesn't count unless it has at least one fast skimmer with Aerial Assault and Supersonic. And with the number of "safe" deep strike options around, maneuvering on the gaming board has never been less important. Any army can be anywhere on the board within any 2 turns. I won't be surprised if and when the new Eldar codex is released, all their vehicles will have the "Blink" rule: can move anywhere on the table within its movement phase.

How is it easy to ignore a twin-linked assault cannon in your rear armor?

But yeah, basically whether the Stormtalon is good or not all comes down to points. At AV11, an expensive model without uniquely useful capabilities likely won't be worth it-- but if the Stormtalon is comparatively cheap, I can definitely see it taking the field instead of LSTyphoons. The Skyhammer missile upgrade costs will be especially important, because if this is cheap I can definitely see Stormtalons taking the field in normal armies. Range, after all, is a defense all its own, AV11 is still better than AV10, and the Skyhammer profile is quite appealing, plus you have the assault cannons for backup.

On the other hand, if the Skyhammer and Cyclone/Typhoon missile costs are high, this will likely only see use in armies that can make use of the Escort rules, where it appears to provide a useful concentration of force that may be worth the premium over a Land Speeder.

How is it easy to ignore a twin-linked assault cannon in your rear armor?

At ~150 points? Pretty easy. Especially given the likelihood that it won't get rear armor since there won't be a gigantic empty space behind my tank for a large oval base flyer to land. To pay for itself in that scenario it'd have to hit a tank that doesn't exist in either of the codexes I use. It's going to die in the attempt, so if doesn't hit a worthwhile target than it's not a worthwhile use of its points. It's not doing anything two speeders won't likely do better. Its far too expensive to be a single target suicide unit with meh firepower.

IMO it seems a bit overpriced, but if the skyhammer/typhoon is cheap, I can see a use for it, I don't care if it's overpriced really, I like the model and the idea, so I'm probably gonna get it anyway.

Praxiss wrote:What is the current fetish with making all ne space marines vehicle immune to Melta?


Seriously, the Assault Ram i can understand, the Storm Raven....maybe as it coudl coem from orbit.

The Talon?!

If it's escorting drop pods, it will probably be entering the atmosphere.

Does it scatter with the "escort" rule? Do you place it before or after you roll for scatter for the unit it's escorting?

@ the dude asking about Drop Pods getting anti-melta: Drop Pods don't have the anti-melta rule because they're open-topped. The heat-shielding doors are open after they land, allowing the opponent's melta weapons access to the cream-filling inside.

dæl wrote:

Praxiss wrote:What is the current fetish with making all ne space marines vehicle immune to Melta?


Seriously, the Assault Ram i can understand, the Storm Raven....maybe as it coudl coem from orbit.

The Talon?!

If it's escorting drop pods, it will probably be entering the atmosphere.

And the drop pods aren't immune to melta.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kronk wrote:Does it scatter with the "escort" rule? Do you place it before or after you roll for scatter for the unit it's escorting?

@ the dude asking about Drop Pods getting anti-melta: Drop Pods don't have the anti-melta rule because they're open-topped. The heat-shielding doors are open after they land, allowing the opponent's melta weapons access to the cream-filling inside.

That's a reasonable explanation. It doesn't explain why every other air/space vehicle in the imperium isn't immune, let alone necron, tau or eldar versions of the same thing.

ShumaGorath wrote:

dæl wrote:

Praxiss wrote:What is the current fetish with making all ne space marines vehicle immune to Melta?


Seriously, the Assault Ram i can understand, the Storm Raven....maybe as it coudl coem from orbit.

The Talon?!

If it's escorting drop pods, it will probably be entering the atmosphere.

And the drop pods aren't immune to melta.

See above, open topped.

Codex Space Marines wrote:protected from the incandescent rage of atmospheric re-entry only by the Drop Pod's ceremite armour plating

they would be immune if the doors stayed shut.

edit: you did see above, no worries

Is there any news on FO slot yet? Keen to see where it fits in with the rest of the army. I'd almost prefer HS so it could fit in with an army with land speeders, and Vanguards.

Do these improve Vanguards at all? Heroic Intervention + Escort seem synergistic.

dæl wrote:Is there any news on FO slot yet?

It has a big 'fast attack' icon on the top intake, so I figure it will be fast attack?!

Do these improve Vanguards at all? Heroic Intervention + Escort seem synergistic.

How do they seem synergistic?

ShumaGorath wrote:How do they seem synergistic?

Seems to me that they could arrive simultaneously and the stormtalon could cause some ranged damage, then the vanguards could tie up whatever unit/s are the most threatening to the stormtalon, be it a rifleman dread, or a unit of melta heavy infantry. Just a thought.

Darkseid wrote:It has a big 'fast attack' icon on the top intake, so I figure it will be fast attack?!

I think that's the icon for assault marines, but it probably will be FA, I guess that will probably suit everyone bar me.

ShumaGorath wrote:

juraigamer wrote:

labmouse42 wrote:
Though at 150 points, I'm still leary on how much good that model will do. Even with all its special tricks, it just dies to a stiff breeze.

If the stormtalon is a FA unit, I will drop them with my two ironclad dreads. It's kinda hard for the opponents to not shoot the dread when it's in your face.

It's easy to ignore the stormtalon though.

Can you not understand that, that alone IS the idea. The ability to drop it with another unit means a couple of things are going to happen. 1) Your opponent needs to rethink what he is shooting at. 2) your opponent will have to allocate more shooting/assaulting in order to deal with whats left over.

It is real simple, give your opponent a OH factor that they have to respond to. If you can do it on turn 1 ALL THE BETTER!

dæl wrote:Seems to me that they could arrive simultaneously and the stormtalon could cause some ranged damage, then the vanguards could tie up whatever unit/s are the most threatening to the stormtalon, be it a rifleman dread, or a unit of melta heavy infantry. Just a thought.

Or the stormtalon will shoot a target, they'll pull models out of charge range, and the vanguards will wonder what they'll do after getting blown off the table. The stormtalons not like an ironclad dread or some dropping assault marines, and the primary targets of the vanguard aren't really what's threatening the stormtalon (everything except lone meltaguns in squads). You're better off having it guide in an ironclad so that they enemy is forced to divide their anti armor firepower between multiple vehicles (which itself is probably not great since you can have another dread instead). This is ignoring the fact that no amount of synergy will make vanguard vets worth their outrageous point cost. If the escort reduces deep strike penalties though it could be useful.

I would think that the Talon could be a solid addition to a unit of Sternguard w/Lysander in a pod. Could be fun if depending on the escort rules.

Lysenis wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

juraigamer wrote:

labmouse42 wrote:
Though at 150 points, I'm still leary on how much good that model will do. Even with all its special tricks, it just dies to a stiff breeze.

If the stormtalon is a FA unit, I will drop them with my two ironclad dreads. It's kinda hard for the opponents to not shoot the dread when it's in your face.

It's easy to ignore the stormtalon though.

Can you not understand that, that alone IS the idea. The ability to drop it with another unit means a couple of things are going to happen. 1) Your opponent needs to rethink what he is shooting at. 2) your opponent will have to allocate more shooting/assaulting in order to deal with whats left over.

It is real simple, give your opponent a OH factor that they have to respond to. If you can do it on turn 1 ALL THE BETTER!

There are better units to drop, when the opponent can easily ignore something because it isn't very dangerous (one assault canon and 2 missile shots is dangerous, but not overly so, it won't pay for itself in one turn and it wont last a second). Treating it like a dramatically worse ravager won't make it good, the points your spending on it could just be another IC dread, a dev squad, or some speeders. None of which are themselves all that great, yet are better.

Your saying its not a threat and now your saying that it wont last till turn 2. Please tell that you actually play 40k. Because last time I checked it was overly possible for a Rhino to last a full 6 rounds of play.

On top of that you get to drop it anywhere within 6" that means really great access to rear armor on turn 1 even with an autocannon it is still not a bad buy and it has Aerial Assault so whats the issue? And its 4 autocannon shots that are rending and TL as well as 2 TL missile shots or 3 TL Autocannon shots, or a TL Lascannon shot.

Your saying its not a threat and now your saying that it wont last till turn 2. Please tell that you actually play 40k. Because last time I checked it was overly possible for a Rhino to last a full 6 rounds of play.

Yes, the rhino isn't intrinsically dangerous. It's also a fifth the points of a stormtalon and you aren't deep striking it to point blank range as you suggested.

Anything within the rules is possible in 40k, the stormtalon may even survive and do a good job. It's unlikely though, it's too expensive and frail to get much use out of it's weapons and the point of armor saturation isn't to give the opponent easy choices.

On top of that you get to drop it anywhere within 6" that means really great access to rear armor on turn 1 even with an autocannon it is still not a bad buy and it has Aerial Assault so whats the issue?

Who exactly is presenting the rear of their vehicles when they see a drop podding marine army? Show me that player, I would like to play against him. Hell, show me the player that even bothers deploying against an IC spam drop pod list.

And its 4 autocannon shots that are rending and TL as well as 2 TL missile shots or 3 TL Autocannon shots, or a TL Lascannon shot.

It can't even have autocanons and if that's all you want just save a dime and buy a rifleman dread.

I have a feeling this has something to do with 6th.

The necron deathmarks have their special ability about enemy deep strikers, and maybe there will be a rule about deep striking, initiative shooting, etc. Who knows?

Supersonic, etc, rules might be different in 6th.

Either way I feel this is a vehicle with rules designed for 6th edition and the deep strike bodyguard rule might be extremely useful in the next edition.

I'm personally more of a Fan of the Valkyries (being that im a guard player ) But the Weapon Abilities make it more akain to a smaller and more manuverable Vulture gunship . What i would like to know is What does the misc. Special Rules do ? i don't know if that would be copyright infringment but if so . I would love to see one of those in action ( granted it was on my team) considerable it seems far more effective then the Vulture (price , Weapons , special Abilities ect. )

ShumaGorath wrote:

Your saying its not a threat and now your saying that it wont last till turn 2. Please tell that you actually play 40k. Because last time I checked it was overly possible for a Rhino to last a full 6 rounds of play.

Yes, the rhino isn't intrinsically dangerous. It's also a fifth the points of a stormtalon and you aren't deep striking it to point blank range as you suggested.

Anything within the rules is possible in 40k, the stormtalon may even survive and do a good job. It's unlikely though, it's too expensive and frail to get much use out of it's weapons and the point of armor saturation isn't to give the opponent easy choices.

On top of that you get to drop it anywhere within 6" that means really great access to rear armor on turn 1 even with an autocannon it is still not a bad buy and it has Aerial Assault so whats the issue?

Who exactly is presenting the rear of their vehicles when they see a drop podding marine army? Show me that player, I would like to play against him. Hell, show me the player that even bothers deploying against an IC spam drop pod list.

And its 4 autocannon shots that are rending and TL as well as 2 TL missile shots or 3 TL Autocannon shots, or a TL Lascannon shot.

It can't even have autocanons and if that's all you want just save a dime and buy a rifleman dread.

Wow did you now see the Skyhammer Missiles. Autocannon stats 60" and hev3 read please and reconsider. As for people deploying against a drop spam, now your just limiting its uses. Who needs drop spam having it support 1 to 2 dreads that drop in on turn 1 is great. Having it support a sternguard veteran drop in on turn 1 or later is good as well. HELL having it support a heroic intervention vanguard squad is fething amazing! The simple fact that it has complete transport poping capability makes it a great pick.

Praxiss wrote:What is the current fetish with making all ne space marines vehicle immune to Melta?


Seriously, the Assault Ram i can understand, the Storm Raven....maybe as it coudl coem from orbit.

The Talon?!

i can only assume they want no-one takign meltas in 6th Ed (althogh if that was the case, why can only marines ignore them?!)

My solution to this , that in my Army i never use Melta i always seem to favor Plasma ( My guard melt a fourth of the time but mehh ) But i never fight any Armies that employ multiple high AV Vehicales

Wow did you now see the Skyhammer Missiles. Autocannon stats 60" and hev3 read please and reconsider.

I did see them. They aren't called auto canons and they don't shoot four times and rend, that's the assault canon.

As for people deploying against a drop spam, now your just limiting its uses. Who needs drop spam having it support 1 to 2 dreads that drop in on turn 1 is great.

Qualify great. If great means "cost effective" then it's not great.

Having it support a sternguard veteran drop in on turn 1 or later is good as well.

So you're throwing about 500 points into what amounts to one turn of shooting to pop a rhino or maybe a tank and do some damage to a single squad followed by the total loss of 500 points due to the lack of assault capacity of the two units. If you're not going all in then such a tactic is inherently flawed since you're presenting high value defenseless targets for a single turn of shooting that isn't worth 500 points.

HELL having it support a heroic intervention vanguard squad is fething amazing!

I don't think we've been playing the same game.

The simple fact that it has complete transport poping capability makes it a great pick.

Not at that cost and that level of frailty. Buy an autocanon/lascanon pred if you want armor popping. Get four devastators. Get a rifleman. All cheaper, more resilient, and just as good at popping rhinos.

Hulksmash wrote:I would think that the Talon could be a solid addition to a unit of Sternguard w/Lysander in a pod. Could be fun if depending on the escort rules.

This... I'm already trying to reorganize my budget to get 2 other these, just for letting them drop in with 20 sternguard, 10 scouts, and 1 ironclad (with Lysander in tow).

An auto las pred is 135 on its own. That is 5 points more then the talon. Now it is likely the typhoon and skyhammer are roughly 25 points more to add either but looking at mathhammer TL is usually better then non TL. The. Add on 3 S7 shots and 4 S6 rending shots all TL.

Do you want the math hammer on 4 non TL shots AND THEN the damage table?

As for my grammatical error, you knew what I meant so stop being a 2d bigot

An auto las pred is 135 on its own. That is 5 points more then the talon. Now it is likely the typhoon and skyhammer are roughly 25 points more to add either but looking at mathhammer TL is usually better then non TL. The. Add on 3 S7 shots and 4 S6 rending shots all TL.

Do you want the math hammer on 4 non TL shots AND THEN the damage table?

Av13 on the pred. Av11 is exceptionally vulnerable. That predator is going to get several more turns of shooting then the talon.

Do you want the math hammer on 4 non TL shots AND THEN the damage table?

Do you want to mathhammer a longfang squad shooting at a skytalon vs a predator?

As for my grammatical error, you knew what I meant so stop being a 2d bigot

Just call things what they are.

According to the thread on Warseer, the escort rule applies to units entering from reserve, NOT Deep Strike

Escort craft: If a stormtalon is kept in reserve, it can be assigned to escort any friendly unit in reserve with the following exceptions:
A stormtalon cannot escort a unit arriving by Deep Strike.
One stormtalon cannot escort another stormtalon.
A maximum of one stormtalon can escort each unit.
If this is done, do not make reserve rolls for the stormtalon. Instead it arrives at the same time as the unit it is escorting. The stormtalon must move onto the board within 6" of the point that the unit it is escorting entered by.

Its a Fast Attack choice, cannot be squadroned, and is only for C:SM. Missiles are powerfist cost, lascannons a bit cheaper.

dæl wrote:According to the thread on Warseer, the escort rule applies to units entering from reserve, NOT Deep Strike

Escort craft: If a stormtalon is kept in reserve, it can be assigned to escort any friendly unit in reserve with the following exceptions:
A stormtalon cannot escort a unit arriving by Deep Strike.
One stormtalon cannot escort another stormtalon.
A maximum of one stormtalon can escort each unit.
If this is done, do not make reserve rolls for the stormtalon. Instead it arrives at the same time as the unit it is escorting. The stormtalon must move onto the board within 6" of the point that the unit it is escorting entered by.

Its a Fast Attack choice, cannot be squadroned, and is only for C:SM. Missiles are powerfist cost, lascannons a bit cheaper.

Wow, well there goes the only vaguely useful ability it had.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Its a Fast Attack choice, cannot be squadroned, and is only for C:SM. Missiles are powerfist cost, lascannons a bit cheaper.

Wow, well there goes the only vaguely useful ability it had.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Its a Fast Attack choice, cannot be squadroned, and is only for C:SM. Missiles are powerfist cost, lascannons a bit cheaper.

Wow, well there goes the only vaguely useful ability it had.

Let's revisit this in six months or so....