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Escort might prove handy for outflankers, now who useful can outflank in C:SM?

dæl wrote:Escort might prove handy for outflankers, now who useful can outflank in C:SM?

Khan gives Outflank.

revackey wrote:

dæl wrote:Escort might prove handy for outflankers, now who useful can outflank in C:SM?

Khan gives Outflank.

Isn't the WD battle report White Scars?

Not a clue, I haven't actually seen the Battle Report.

It may be interesting in a Bike list or an Outflanking Mech List. I dont think it will be to competitive until 6E with new rules.

dæl wrote:According to the thread on Warseer, the escort rule applies to units entering from reserve, NOT Deep Strike

Escort craft: If a stormtalon is kept in reserve, it can be assigned to escort any friendly unit in reserve with the following exceptions:
A stormtalon cannot escort a unit arriving by Deep Strike.
One stormtalon cannot escort another stormtalon.
A maximum of one stormtalon can escort each unit.
If this is done, do not make reserve rolls for the stormtalon. Instead it arrives at the same time as the unit it is escorting. The stormtalon must move onto the board within 6" of the point that the unit it is escorting entered by.

Its a Fast Attack choice, cannot be squadroned, and is only for C:SM. Missiles are powerfist cost, lascannons a bit cheaper.

Where did you get those rules from? Could we get a link please.

dæl wrote:

revackey wrote:

dæl wrote:Escort might prove handy for outflankers, now who useful can outflank in C:SM?

Khan gives Outflank.

Isn't the WD battle report White Scars?

Yes it is, according to the May issue back page.

Lysenis wrote:Where did you get those rules from? Could we get a link please.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?336910-Autumn-of-Fliers/page54


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Skyhammer isn't twin linked, but still seems the best option imo, close enough to the assault cannons to be firing at the same stuff, and has rate of fire too. Seems its very much an anti-transport with this loadout.

Will be buying one for Combat Patrol games, this will take the place of my attack bike in 500 point games.

155 points for a skyhammer/Cyclone launcher (presumably 1-- if it's 2, this unit is extremely good and in fact likely broken), no Deep Strike, no escorting Deep Strikers? Might be competitive in 6e once the flyer rules hit (and presumably constitute buffs), isn't competitive now except perhaps in certain super aggressive lists or low points games where it can easily hang back and pummel people from out of their range.

One possibility, of course, is escorting outflankers and using the Skyhammer missiles as insurance for coming in on the wrong side of the board, but 155 points is an expensive insurance policy.

My biggest questions that have came from this:

1. how does this hover strike rule work. Adding BS +1 doesn't seem that effective with so many TL weapon profile. BS 5 is anything but a 1 to wound. so you would only have a few 1s to reroll from TL. but guess that will basically get you through to hit roll with out loosing a shot. . . Generally. Still will be incredibly helpful with the hammer launcher and typhoon.

2. how will the Escort rule work. the wording of the rule will be very important.

3. points cost is important. if the upgrades are too expensive it wont be worth it truly.

As to the argument about the cost verses the Pred the true point is that it is rather strong heavy weaponry in the FA slot. While a pred is cheaper it is not a FA (excluding stupid space vampires) some may have already filled their Heavy and still need more firepower. AV 11 makes it much better then a speeder as it can no longer be glanced to death by bolters or other S4 shooting and/or CC.

Fetterkey wrote:155 points for a skyhammer/Cyclone launcher (presumably 1-- if it's 2, this unit is extremely good and in fact likely broken), no Deep Strike, no escorting Deep Strikers? Might be competitive in 6e once the flyer rules hit (and presumably constitute buffs), isn't competitive now except perhaps in certain super aggressive lists or low points games where it can easily hang back and pummel people from out of their range.

One possibility, of course, is escorting outflankers and using the Skyhammer missiles as insurance for coming in on the wrong side of the board, but 155 points is an expensive insurance policy.

If that is the fate of it rule wise then yea its useless. And the fact that only C:SM gets them GW dropped the ball. BUT I will still have some tiny hope until I see an actual WD or pictures of the pages.

I wouldn't say useless. Useless is Honor Guard. But it certainly isn't a particularly efficient or strong choice at the moment, assuming you only get one skyhammer or Cyclone launcher. The leak I saw said "launchers" but I assume it's only one because two would be completely busted. A unit that fires six BS 5, Strength 7 shots from 60" away would be insanely strong, regardless of other rules.

Fetterkey wrote:I wouldn't say useless. Useless is Honor Guard. But it certainly isn't a particularly efficient or strong choice at the moment, assuming you only get one skyhammer or Cyclone launcher. The leak I saw said "launchers" but I assume it's only one because two would be completely busted. A unit that fires six BS 5, Strength 7 shots from 60" away would be insanely strong, regardless of other rules.

Without being twin linked that's actually worse against mech than a psyfledread while being much less resilient and more expensive. It'd be competitive with such august company, so it would be quite good.

I think it is very suspicious that all new flyers now have areal assault and supersonic, regardless of army (see necron and now this). I think something is brewing in the 6th edition that will let us make more sense of the Av11. Note also that necrons have living metal while this thing has ceramite plating - both defensive rules but by no means enough to make Av11 more palatable. So, there is a big piece of the puzzle that is still missing.

I think it is wise to reserve strong judgments until we see the real 6th edition.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:I wouldn't say useless. Useless is Honor Guard. But it certainly isn't a particularly efficient or strong choice at the moment, assuming you only get one skyhammer or Cyclone launcher. The leak I saw said "launchers" but I assume it's only one because two would be completely busted. A unit that fires six BS 5, Strength 7 shots from 60" away would be insanely strong, regardless of other rules.

Without being twin linked that's actually worse against mech than a psyfledread while being much less resilient and more expensive. It'd be competitive with such august company, so it would be quite good.

Lets compare it to an auto-include from the most OP army, see how it does. Let me guess, its worse than a vindicare against armour 14, and worse than Purifiers against hordes too, and it can't take as much fire as a Draigo-Paladin deathstar. This thing puts out 3 S6 Rending Twin Linked and 3 S7 all at potentially BS5, thats not bad, it will certainly work as airsuperiority, imagine firing that into a squadron of 3 vendettas.

dæl wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:I wouldn't say useless. Useless is Honor Guard. But it certainly isn't a particularly efficient or strong choice at the moment, assuming you only get one skyhammer or Cyclone launcher. The leak I saw said "launchers" but I assume it's only one because two would be completely busted. A unit that fires six BS 5, Strength 7 shots from 60" away would be insanely strong, regardless of other rules.

Without being twin linked that's actually worse against mech than a psyfledread while being much less resilient and more expensive. It'd be competitive with such august company, so it would be quite good.

Lets compare it to an auto-include from the most OP army, see how it does. Let me guess, its worse than a vindicare against armour 14, and worse than Purifiers against hordes too, and it can't take as much fire as a Draigo-Paladin deathstar. This thing puts out 3 S6 Rending Twin Linked and 3 S7 all at potentially BS5, thats not bad, it will certainly work as airsuperiority, imagine firing that into a squadron of 3 vendettas.

Read the last sentence of my post. Also, imagine a single vendetta firing at one of these. Hell, imagine a couple of multilaser chimeras firing at it. If it can have two missile pods that makes it 180 points for a six shot str7 ap4 on an 11 armor flying vehicle. Are six shots worth 180 points? That's all you're going to get, so those shots better be hitting some gold.

So the Stormtalon can't escort units deep striking? This isn't all that great except for units that can outflank. I'm guessing this essentially makes Khan somewhat useful now since you can bring in a squad from either table edge and have the Stormtalon firing at side armor. Sounds interesting, but not too game breaking I think.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:I wouldn't say useless. Useless is Honor Guard. But it certainly isn't a particularly efficient or strong choice at the moment, assuming you only get one skyhammer or Cyclone launcher. The leak I saw said "launchers" but I assume it's only one because two would be completely busted. A unit that fires six BS 5, Strength 7 shots from 60" away would be insanely strong, regardless of other rules.

Without being twin linked that's actually worse against mech than a psyfledread

How do you figure? 6 BS 5 shots = 5 hits average, while a psyfledread scores about 3.5, and while the psyfledread hits are a point higher in terms of Strength they're from shorter range. I'd rather have the Stormtalon, especially since it's in a less competitive slot.

The lack of deep strike options really disappoints me. All of the flyers should have this option and then the more agile fighters and possibly some ground units could attempt to shoot them down on deep strike attempts. It would add another level to tactics and list building that would not add any considerable length to the games.

I see all Marines getting the Talon eventually, maybe as soon as a 6th edition FAQ. I don't see GW telling customers not to buy a unit. I don't remember any non-chapter specific unit in the marine codex not being optioned somehow to the stand alone chapter books.

Piccolo wrote:The lack of deep strike options really disappoints me. All of the flyers should have this option and then the more agile fighters and possibly some ground units could attempt to shoot them down on deep strike attempts. It would add another level to tactics and list building that would not add any considerable length to the games.

I see all Marines getting the Talon eventually, maybe as soon as a 6th edition FAQ. I don't see GW telling customers not to buy a unit. I don't remember any non-chapter specific unit in the marine codex not being optioned somehow to the stand alone chapter books.

They didn't make the Stormraven available to all, and as for C:SM only - Master of the Forge, Thunderfire Cannon, Land Speeder Storm, Ironclad Dread, Legion of the Damned. They've got to have something that makes them unique, otherwise everyone would play BA/SW.

Piccolo wrote:I don't remember any non-chapter specific unit in the marine codex not being optioned somehow to the stand alone chapter books.

Thunderfire Cannons and Ironclad Dreadnoughts are the only such units I'm aware of at present.

I just don't see it replacing my Landspeeder Typhoons just yet...

My biggest concern is that fact that it comes in the FA slot. To me, MM Attack Bikes, Typhoons, and MM/HF Landspeeders are just too nice to pass up. One thing that might be interesting is having it escort a LSS that is Outflanking... but that's using up two FA slots for a gimmick. Meh...

ShumaGorath wrote:

dæl wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:I wouldn't say useless. Useless is Honor Guard. But it certainly isn't a particularly efficient or strong choice at the moment, assuming you only get one skyhammer or Cyclone launcher. The leak I saw said "launchers" but I assume it's only one because two would be completely busted. A unit that fires six BS 5, Strength 7 shots from 60" away would be insanely strong, regardless of other rules.

Without being twin linked that's actually worse against mech than a psyfledread while being much less resilient and more expensive. It'd be competitive with such august company, so it would be quite good.

Lets compare it to an auto-include from the most OP army, see how it does. Let me guess, its worse than a vindicare against armour 14, and worse than Purifiers against hordes too, and it can't take as much fire as a Draigo-Paladin deathstar. This thing puts out 3 S6 Rending Twin Linked and 3 S7 all at potentially BS5, thats not bad, it will certainly work as airsuperiority, imagine firing that into a squadron of 3 vendettas.

Read the last sentence of my post. Also, imagine a single vendetta firing at one of these. Hell, imagine a couple of multilaser chimeras firing at it. If it can have two missile pods that makes it 180 points for a six shot str7 ap4 on an 11 armor flying vehicle. Are six shots worth 180 points? That's all you're going to get, so those shots better be hitting some gold.

So this is the only thing in the SM army? Maybe at 500pts, but with saturation and range they should survive a few turns, if they don't something else is.

dæl wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

dæl wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:I wouldn't say useless. Useless is Honor Guard. But it certainly isn't a particularly efficient or strong choice at the moment, assuming you only get one skyhammer or Cyclone launcher. The leak I saw said "launchers" but I assume it's only one because two would be completely busted. A unit that fires six BS 5, Strength 7 shots from 60" away would be insanely strong, regardless of other rules.

Without being twin linked that's actually worse against mech than a psyfledread while being much less resilient and more expensive. It'd be competitive with such august company, so it would be quite good.

Lets compare it to an auto-include from the most OP army, see how it does. Let me guess, its worse than a vindicare against armour 14, and worse than Purifiers against hordes too, and it can't take as much fire as a Draigo-Paladin deathstar. This thing puts out 3 S6 Rending Twin Linked and 3 S7 all at potentially BS5, thats not bad, it will certainly work as airsuperiority, imagine firing that into a squadron of 3 vendettas.

Read the last sentence of my post. Also, imagine a single vendetta firing at one of these. Hell, imagine a couple of multilaser chimeras firing at it. If it can have two missile pods that makes it 180 points for a six shot str7 ap4 on an 11 armor flying vehicle. Are six shots worth 180 points? That's all you're going to get, so those shots better be hitting some gold.

So this is the only thing in the SM army? Maybe at 500pts, but with saturation and range they should survive a few turns, if they don't something else is.

It has a problematic firepower to armor ratio. Ask DE players how long their tanks last and thats in an army with nothing but glass canons which would imply target saturation. In a basic marine force it'd be very easy to prioritize the flyer over rhinos (cheaper) or everything else in the codex (much more resilient).


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Fetterkey wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:I wouldn't say useless. Useless is Honor Guard. But it certainly isn't a particularly efficient or strong choice at the moment, assuming you only get one skyhammer or Cyclone launcher. The leak I saw said "launchers" but I assume it's only one because two would be completely busted. A unit that fires six BS 5, Strength 7 shots from 60" away would be insanely strong, regardless of other rules.

Without being twin linked that's actually worse against mech than a psyfledread

How do you figure? 6 BS 5 shots = 5 hits average, while a psyfledread scores about 3.5, and while the psyfledread hits are a point higher in terms of Strength they're from shorter range. I'd rather have the Stormtalon, especially since it's in a less competitive slot.

I give the nod thanks to the point of strength granting capability against av 13 and 14 and better odds of penetrating against av12. The jets probably a better rhino killer and it can dash in and maybe deal with a land raider thanks to the assault canon. It's more expensive and vastly less surviveable though and the extra 2 feet of range isn't that meaningful. When it walks a psyfledread has a 50" threat range which is 12 inches short of the entire table the long way.

If you take 2 and combine them with a full squadron of 3 Typhoons you would have a fairly decent amount of long range firepower.

I'll wait for the 6th edition rules to drop before making judgments but I like the concept.


The model on the other hand...

I actually like the Stormraven. This is just wierd

We also sit at a strong point here. Since the new rule set is surely just around the corner and with that we assume a new marines dex, we have the ability to really raise hell and complain about this model or rules surrounding it to hopefully get a change. If enough problems arise from this model then we can hope that something in the next edition will come up to make it more valuble

I want to like the concept, and I want to like the model, but it falls short for me in both areas.

At 155pts for a reasonable loadout, its just too expensive. If 6th ed magically changes a bunch of rules and what-not, then sure, it might become more useful. However, in the current 5th ed world, its simply too expensive when I could get 2x MM/HF speeders with 15pts to spare.

Yeah, but those are for completely different targets. Not to mention the fact they will be 2 easy kill points given their threat and the range they operate in.

The Stormtalon can operate at extreme range where the threats to itself are quite few in number. Its also cheap enough to not cramp the rest of the list, I can easily get 3 Predators and some rifleman dreads in addition to these guys to spread the threat out.

I may scratch build my own, but I will definitly be using them.

I think I'd rather spend my money on some hydras for my guard than buy one of these for my marines...

The "list" of codex only units was longe than I thought simply becuase I had crossed most of those off. Land speeder storm, ironclad dred and legion of the damned are all units that while codex specific have close variants in other lists. Master of the forge is just another character for modifying your list structure, like Belial for DW. That pretty much leaves the thunder fire, which while unique isn't something entire armies are built around.

With the idea that over the course of 6th edition and as new books come out everyone gets flyers I don't see how they can prevent marines not in C:SM from having this unit opened up to them.