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I'm going to side with Kaldor on this too. You really have to pull your punches when playing kids that are new to gaming. I've seen kids go off the handle after they've lost their favourite unit.
A particularly fond one being a kid charging his CSM Dread into my mate's Seer Council. My friend repeatedly said to him "Do you REALLY want to do this?", then when the inevitable happened the kid was in tears and my friend getting a look of death from the father.

Eh...

Maybe I come from a different era, or just a different background entirely but... when I was a kid, if you wanted to play games with the adults, you won or you lost like the adults. You learned to play as they did (and, if you were playing gin rummy with grandma, you made sure to watch out for her cheating!) and, if you lost, you learned to lose gracefully... at least until the winner was out of earshot. If you won? Well, that's perhaps not quite the same situation here, as it seems the OP handled that better than I was taught but...

End result, the kid stepped up to a table for a game that has people of all ages playing that is, at its heart, a competitive game that will have one definite winner and one definite loser. Kid needs to learn to lose with grace, or find another hobby. Unless this kid was like six, getting all teary-eyed over a game of plastic soldiers is not an appropriate response, and Dad there is not doing his kid any favors, either.

Kids need to learn to lose. I see all these parents these days who have kids in "little league" sports where they don't even keep score because the parents don't want their kids to have to worry about losing. All these parents are doing is raising self entitled brats.

Competition breeds strength. I grew up playing fighting games in arcades. It doesn't matter if the person who put their coin in the second player slot was 10 or 30 you did your best to WIN. And while 40k is a much more relaxing hobby where you aren't losing money with each lose. Even when you are fielding units you consider more fun and aren't writing your list from the get go to smash your opponent, once you are on the table you should be trying to win. And expect your opponent to do the same.

Beating an opponent who isn't taking you seriously is not "fun". A "close game" is not fun by itself. A close game is fun when there is adrenaline involved. When you are trying your hardest and pushing yourself as a human to overcome obstacles. When each dice thrown can change the game. When every single model killed could cost a player the game. Two equally skilled opponents really going at it. That is fun, at least to me. Fun being subjective, if other people think it is more fun to ensure lesser skilled players arent upset about losing that is up to them.

That being said, if you are clearly better than your opponent insulting them isn't needed. However from your description of what happened you didn't try to rub the lose in their face, you chalked it up to good luck on your part something im sure all of us have done and then told them to deal with the lose like any normal human being should.

Now im in the mood to play some street fighter.

IcedAnimals wrote:I am curious what your list was actually. I know you said you had a thunderfire cannon, sniper scouts and a tactical squad (none of which are WAAC units). And honestly vanilla marines aren't even a top 5 codex. So I am curious why your opponent would use that particular jab against you. Though it does seem that no matter what people are fielding, if anything you use does well then that unit is cheesy and you are only fielding it because you WAAC

Unfortunately, I don't have the list with me right now, but I can tell you that the list contained tactical squads, a rhino (which I barely used except for shooting at an insolent assault squad and driving around)
the assault squad, sniper squad, the Assault on black reach dready, a terminator squad (also AOBR), and the AOBR captain. As you can tell, I'm rely heavily on AOBR.

Tell them that you are sorry. You are sorry that the kid needs to grow some balls.

I just don't bother playing again with losers like you describe.

I wouldn't say anything at all.

I would just begin to slowly try to fit my entire hand into my mouth, all the while never breaking eye contact with them.



They probably won't bother you after that.

Kaldor wrote:I'm gonna go against the grain here:

You need to treat kids with a bit more care. Their responses are often more extreme than an adults and they're still learning how to handle themselves.

You also need to treat beginners with more care, and maybe explain to them what they're doing wrong during the game. I've even pointed out my opponents mistakes during Grand Tournaments.

Also, you need to be more empathetic. When you destroy a good chunk of the enemies army, watch their reaction. If they take it on the chin and have a laugh about it, then maybe some friendly taunting or celebrations are in order. If they look sullen and surprised, then perhaps it's best to make a comment about how you got lucky, or their armour saves should have been better. I've sometimes apologised to new or young players for pulling off a particularly good move.

i concur also, it is downright awful to see half your army gone in the first turn just because you lost a couple of rolls, i've been there and it sure does make me feel like an ass for having spent all that time and money on them.

Kaldor wrote:I'm gonna go against the grain here:

You need to treat kids with a bit more care. Their responses are often more extreme than an adults and they're still learning how to handle themselves.

You also need to treat beginners with more care, and maybe explain to them what they're doing wrong during the game. I've even pointed out my opponents mistakes during Grand Tournaments.

Also, you need to be more empathetic. When you destroy a good chunk of the enemies army, watch their reaction. If they take it on the chin and have a laugh about it, then maybe some friendly taunting or celebrations are in order. If they look sullen and surprised, then perhaps it's best to make a comment about how you got lucky, or their armour saves should have been better. I've sometimes apologised to new or young players for pulling off a particularly good move.

+1 Excellent post, I agree

Kaldor wrote:I'm gonna go against the grain here:

You need to treat kids with a bit more care. Their responses are often more extreme than an adults and they're still learning how to handle themselves.

You also need to treat beginners with more care, and maybe explain to them what they're doing wrong during the game. I've even pointed out my opponents mistakes during Grand Tournaments.

Also, you need to be more empathetic. When you destroy a good chunk of the enemies army, watch their reaction. If they take it on the chin and have a laugh about it, then maybe some friendly taunting or celebrations are in order. If they look sullen and surprised, then perhaps it's best to make a comment about how you got lucky, or their armour saves should have been better. I've sometimes apologised to new or young players for pulling off a particularly good move.

I agree.
When you really pound someone to the ground remember how it felt and have some tact.
Games are social tools for growth, creativity and creating bonds with people. Apologise and gain a bigger win than the hollow victory.

i disagree. people who play the game know the rules, or the very least should. be tactful obviously, and dont be a sore winner, but someone who "expects to win" regardless of being new or not deserves and needs a bit of a thrumping to readgust the attitude. even i need one every once and a while. sometimes i get over confident with my list, and one of my buddies completly kicks my butt. its great.

a kid who is a sore looser or his father who expects you to take it easy and pull your punches in a game is doing him no favours. hes teaching him people in the world will go easy on him for being new, and they wont. and that by whining about it, he can get his way. sorry - but the real world is NOT like that.

next time you play, try to be helpful and answer/explain your army and its rules, as well as honestly offer and answer any tactical help requested, but dont hold off on shooting, or avoid charges etc just to coddle the kid. the loss will help in the long run. you learn more from loosing. where you can go wrong is by dancing on the grave. however i would still throw a touch of sarcasim towards the dad... sounds like he needs an attitude adjustment as well.

See I dont get when people say you are being to aggressive to a new player. I mean as the saying goes trial by fire. If your not acting like a dick about it, you did nothing wrong. I mean i play to win and that means using cunning strategies or pressuring the enemy and being aggressive. you did nothing wrong the kid, and the older kid need to learn how to accept defeat to a better player.

It is very hard to take it easy on people in 40k and not make it look like your taking it easy on them. I have in several cases fibbed about the number I rolled attacks for mindshackle scarabs(from 3 to 1, one game I did this 6 times, never the opposite way though) I could tell my opponent was getting very frustrated and it wouldn't have changed the outcome of the game.

When I play with a new player on their first game I will often tell them things they could do to counter what I am doing or take advantage of some of their armies strengths and some of my armies weaknesses.

As for the OPs post he should go to the manager and explain what happened and take the person he was playing with in the game. Being pro-active about the situation can't hurt.

Psienesis wrote:Eh...

Maybe I come from a different era, or just a different background entirely but... when I was a kid, if you wanted to play games with the adults, you won or you lost like the adults. You learned to play as they did (and, if you were playing gin rummy with grandma, you made sure to watch out for her cheating!) and, if you lost, you learned to lose gracefully... at least until the winner was out of earshot. If you won? Well, that's perhaps not quite the same situation here, as it seems the OP handled that better than I was taught but...

End result, the kid stepped up to a table for a game that has people of all ages playing that is, at its heart, a competitive game that will have one definite winner and one definite loser. Kid needs to learn to lose with grace, or find another hobby. Unless this kid was like six, getting all teary-eyed over a game of plastic soldiers is not an appropriate response, and Dad there is not doing his kid any favors, either.

This. You come to a game where everyone is three times your age, you step up the maturity level or get treated like the annoying kid you are. It's like any other game. If your going to let your kid play a few hands on poker night or let hime play doubles in ping-pong because you only have three guys, then the kid should be happy he's getting treated like an adult, and should act as such. You shouldn't belittle the kid or be a sore winner or anything like that, but you shouldn't coddle them either. I'm not saying you should do this, but sometimes, running into a total asshat when your young can be a great life-leason. It can teach you that life isn't fair, you will often lose, and that the world isn't cotton candy and feathers. Not everyone wants to be your friend. Not everyone likes you. Not saying you should be a dick to kids and then tell their enraged parents that they should be thanking you for teaching their child a lesson, but yeah. Kids need to be handled more carefully then your best bud, but don't coddle them.

BattleGoat74 wrote:I was at my FLGS last week with a vanilla space marine army. I decided to play a game with a 30ish guy and his kid (about 10 or 11)against me and my friend. Of course, the kid wasn't the best tactician, and my Space Marines devastated his Space Wolfs, he sent about two packs after me, and I defended with a thunder cannon, a scout squad with sniper rifles, a tacticle squad. His 20 men was reduced to five in turn due to some lucky rolls. I than went after his Wolf Gaurd terminators with an assault sqaud and a terminator squad, and destroyed it within two turns losing only a terminator and two SMs.
So, at the end, the kid was understandibly distraught and told me that I "shouldn't lay into him like that", and his dad was a bit pissed to. Told me to be more nice to a beginner ( the kid played 6 games so far), and demanded an apology. I explained to him the nature of the game and how to kid should just get used to it, and how it was just some lucky dice rolls. The kid got even more pissed and had his little whine fest about how I was a WAAC gamer. Keep in mind that this was my 11th game, and I never used a third of the units in my army including the thunder cannon. The dad said that if he didn't recieve the apology by Monday (even gave me his email for it), he would report me to the manager for being "disruptive and agrressive against a new player". No doubt that the manager would just laugh it off once I explained my side.

So obviously, this was a little misunderstanding mixed with some paranoia that every good dice roll means that the opponent is a master tactician. I really don't see what the problem was: in my first few games, the opponent went easy on me, but on my 5th game, my opponent completely devastated my army, because of some lucky rolls and speed, and yet I wasn't complaining. So, dakkadakka, what do you think about this?

If i was you i would have been nicer to the kid, let him kill some of my dudes. But on the other hand since he wanted to cry little a little B*^%$ whelp i woulda been happy i smoke checked him.

DarthSpader wrote:psh what ever. i would tell him to stfu, then invite him for a rematch and REALLY kick his butt. tailor your list and just go full bore hardcore on him. kick his butt so hard he pukes last weeks s***.

then ask him if he still wants that apologie.

the game is competetive by nature. playing a g ame and expecting to win because your new, and whining when you loose... all thats going to do is encourage the behaviour. the butt kicking serves a greater purpose and is a much needed method of paying your dues.

Sounds like a shallow and immature move.

What you did was fine, in no way do you have to apologise,

I have very little experience with 40k, and most of my games of any variety are against the friend who set me up with the hobby, but I think that when someone is new and inexperienced, while you shouldn't cut them any slack, you should give them advice on what the best decision they could make would be, i.e. "maybe your missile launcher devs should shoot at my predator's side armour instead of that tactical squad over there, cause the tac squad's missile launcher can't hurt your Land Raider as much as the lascannons could. That way, you come across as helpful, they improve, and you get a tougher game.

For example, I was lucky enough to have my first few games of WHFB with a friend who I knew well who took the time to explain things to me. I managed to table him first game, because it was introductory, and he used it to teach me the strengths and weaknesses of each unit on both sides. Second game, he went a little harder, and I managed to take out about half his army, but was tabled myself. Third game, we both went all out, and he just barely won, both of us having approximately half our armies left. The learning curve was steep, but if he had gone easy on me, I would never have learned some of the tricks I pulled during our third game.

blood reaper wrote:What you did was fine, in no way do you have to apologise,

Yeah, you kinda do.

Flip it around, here's a good life experience for you.

The bottom line is the bottom line. Cold, hard cash. The FLGS owner has a patron dropping hundreds of dollars on toy soldiers to give his son a developmental positive hobby. (Analytical thought, personal contact, etc.) The bottom line is the $$ he's spending in the store. If you're in your basement and someone's 10 year old kid wants to come play, that's one thing. As a guest in the FLGS you've got a higher standard of behavior to live up to. Basically, you're missing that you've an obligation to the FLGS owner.

Randall Turner wrote:

blood reaper wrote:What you did was fine, in no way do you have to apologise,

Yeah, you kinda do.

Flip it around, here's a good life experience for you.

The bottom line is the bottom line. Cold, hard cash. The FLGS owner has a patron dropping hundreds of dollars on toy soldiers to give his son a developmental positive hobby. (Analytical thought, personal contact, etc.) The bottom line is the $$ he's spending in the store. If you're in your basement and someone's 10 year old kid wants to come play, that's one thing. As a guest in the FLGS you've got a higher standard of behavior to live up to. Basically, you're missing that you've an obligation to the FLGS owner.

So he has too becuase the child and his father has spent money? So we can't assume he's also spent cold hard cash?

No. He's playing a game which you can lose, win, draw, the child did not want to accept this, and I stand by my point.

This exact reason is why I dislike playing against the under 16 crowd at my FLGS. While I'm sure it's true that there are some decently mature players out there in that age range, my experience has been weighted heavily in the opposite direction. If possible, I avoid playing with them entirely.

They also seem to consistently be poor winners as well as sore losers. Cheering, gloating, gleefully calling out failed saves, laughing at dice misfortune... combine that with the whining, pouting and gnashing of teeth when they are losing and it quickly becomes more of a test of my patience rather than my gaming skill.

The fact that you agreed to play against the youngster is admirable in itself because I know I probably wouldn't have. It's possible that you could have been especially tactful and empathetic, but that's at your discretion and there's no obligation for you to do so more than you would to any other player.

But the worst part of the situation is the dad's behavior. It's people like him who get family easter egg hunts banned, kids sports programs cancelled, and end up raising spoiled, entitled little brats.

DoW

blood reaper wrote:No. He's playing a game which you can lose, win, draw, the child did not want to accept this, and I stand by my point.

Well, in real life, sometimes when you win, you really lose. And sometimes when you lose, you really win. This might be a time when losing is winning.

Randall Turner wrote:

blood reaper wrote:No. He's playing a game which you can lose, win, draw, the child did not want to accept this, and I stand by my point.

Well, in real life, sometimes when you win, you really lose. And sometimes when you lose, you really win. This might be a time when losing is winning.

I still believe what he did was fine, the child just refused his loss.

Ouch, Dakka. Harsh.

Don't get me wrong, yeah, the kid and his father went overboard. Apologizing for winning is ridiculous. And yeah, the kid was acting immature.

But that's the risk with playing a kid. Sure, you can go on and on about the competitive nature of a "game" and how loss builds character, and strength, etc. But you can nurture these values without smashing the kid/noob down. It's annoying to see the one or two elitist vet play a noob and deliberately berate him/her for the sake of ego. By the same vein, the people who whine and pout when they lose their favorite unit are no fun either.

Cryonicleech wrote:Ouch, Dakka. Harsh.

Don't get me wrong, yeah, the kid and his father went overboard. Apologizing for winning is ridiculous. And yeah, the kid was acting immature.

But that's the risk with playing a kid. Sure, you can go on and on about the competitive nature of a "game" and how loss builds character, and strength, etc. But you can nurture these values without smashing the kid/noob down. It's annoying to see the one or two elitist vet play a noob and deliberately berate him/her for the sake of ego. By the same vein, the people who whine and pout when they lose their favorite unit are no fun either.

I didn't smash, the kid down, or at least not intentionally. Remember I wasn't like "oh look lets trick the kid to send his units in so I can destroy them with rapid fire and a thundercannon", it was more like "gak where did those guys come from where did those terminators come from holy gak I'm being attacked by a ninja army". Really, I thought about it, and realized the dice was to blame.

Well in my mind i You play the Game to win not to be fair , you could say im kinda an ass for this but in a 500 point tourni i killed about 20 assualt marines and a Bael Preditor in 1 turn of shooting , the kid was about 8 i think but he took it well , It's the Dice not you ,

Kaldor wrote:I'm gonna go against the grain here:

You need to treat kids with a bit more care. Their responses are often more extreme than an adults and they're still learning how to handle themselves.

You also need to treat beginners with more care, and maybe explain to them what they're doing wrong during the game. I've even pointed out my opponents mistakes during Grand Tournaments.

Also, you need to be more empathetic. When you destroy a good chunk of the enemies army, watch their reaction. If they take it on the chin and have a laugh about it, then maybe some friendly taunting or celebrations are in order. If they look sullen and surprised, then perhaps it's best to make a comment about how you got lucky, or their armour saves should have been better. I've sometimes apologised to new or young players for pulling off a particularly good move.

See, the thing is, I'm a beginner too. I couldn't have told him advice, I had no idea how Space Wolves work, the only thing I know about them is that there good at assaulting, and when the kid tried to pull that off, well, look where it got him. I did make a comment about his armor save's (are your wolves actually wearing wolf skin and nothing else?), and I said that my units were on a roll. Thats pretty much it. Didn't try to tell him that his wolves were a bunch of dumb feths or anything.

I've been told I'm good with kids. Probably a trait ported from my job to the gaming boards but, still, when a young'un appears on the store and I happen to be idling around, the manager always picks me to run a battle against him or her.

Some useful bits to remenber when battling kids.

1) Kids are the ultimate unreliable narrators. Never believe a ten year old who claims to be experienced on the hobby, know other armies beyond his own or have an excellent grasp of the rules. YOU have acquired all your knowledge from years of gaming experience, meeting the right people and making a judicious use of your disposable income. A ten year old has no money of his own to burn on spare codexes and doesn't wander through the gaming stores alone looking for match-ups. His gaming circle would be limited to his/her parents (Geek dads, more or less rare in my area) or a group of friends his/her age (Precocious impulse shoppers, quite more frequent here) who barely know to roll the scatter dice when deepstriking... a Leman Russ (often while making "whoooosh" sounds).

2) Knowing that, be didactic. Brief them on your units' capabilities and weaknesses. Let them know you are aware of theirs. If the situation is dire (i.e. taking unreasonable choices, getting stressed...), lighten up, joke a bit, and try to telegraph him or her your moves and plans. If possible, drop some advice. Like "I'm moving those shoota boys to cover. They're in your squad's rapid fire range, so the 4+ save will help them survive a bit longer".

3) Don't be soft but don't allow cheats. Play as you would play any other opponent: Don't leave troops in the open, don't refrain from charging/shooting, ramming, using reserves, wound allocation and whatever dirty tricks come to mind. That said, most kids resort to cheating when cornered: Squads that suddenly teleport between vehicles, mysterious, never-heard-before invulnerable saves, vehicles that move 20"... point these out and gallantly offer alternatives. Just remember:

4) Never, NEVER pick a fight with a kid. It usually ends bad for all parties involved. If he or she is being annoying, stubborn or rude, ALWAYS check with dad first. Make sure you approach him casually, simply draw his attention to your table. Don't be pushy or the fatherly instincts deeply ingrained in the primal areas of his brain will kick in. You want an authoritative figure to back your points after all, not an evolved, tool-using, business-suit-wearing australopithecus fighting to defend his offspring no matter what.

5) Bear in mind you're going against a barely-rational lump of flesh and fluids that's four or five years short of starting to think as an actual human being. Ow. Forget it. That was harsh. Bear in mind you're playing against a child. Children are impulsive, frequently less-than-rational and not too tolerant of frustration. Little bags of random they are. Try to command respect but ALWAYS try to make the kid have as much fun as possible. If necessary, drop your standards for a 40k game a bit. If the kid laughs at your rolling, laugh with him or her. Use humor judiciously and get ready to deal with the many WTH! moments that will ensue. Be tolerant. Drop some praise if he or she gets things right. As long as it doesn't bother other players having games around you, don't be afraid to let loose your inner child.

Like BattleGoat74, when gaming with kids noone is free from douchey kids/dads overreacting and making a scene, random acts of rudeness, sudden bursts of crying and a plethora of disgusting possibilities. Despite all I've written above, I've ran into a few borderline tense situations myself: A kid, for instance, would keep half-mocking, half-insulting me for playing orks because his dad (a nerdy-looking fellow I'd never seen before) had told him they were stupid "just like niXXXrs*". Good for me I managed to re-rout the conversation from racist expletives to Ork and BA fluff. Doubt I changed his mind, but it allowed me to play six turns straight without openly voicing my desire to make Hitler Junior an instant orphan. Even in situations like these, heavy doses of patience and the right choice of words can win the day.

In brief: When dealing with kids, stay calm and collected, lighten up, be patient and bear in mind that this is in no way a "normal" game of 40k.

*These weren't his exact words, as the N-word doesn't have a match in Spanish. But if it had, no doubt he would have used it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, I forgot. As a follow up to 1) and 2), if the kid's doing something wrong that ultimately harms him (like forgetting to roll his saves), point it out ASAP. Don't be abusive.

The kid is playing a game based around uttter death and destruction. Space marines embody merciless killing of the enemy. Grim dark future of 40k has no place for crybabys

Brother Thomas wrote:The kid is playing a game based around uttter death and destruction. Space marines embody merciless killing of the enemy. Grim dark future of 40k has no place for crybabys

Or vampires...

Grimtuff wrote:I'm going to side with Kaldor on this too. You really have to pull your punches when playing kids that are new to gaming. I've seen kids go off the handle after they've lost their favourite unit.
A particularly fond one being a kid charging his CSM Dread into my mate's Seer Council. My friend repeatedly said to him "Do you REALLY want to do this?", then when the inevitable happened the kid was in tears and my friend getting a look of death from the father.

I started playing Warhammer 40k when I was nine and I lost my first three games in a row. I think it was a good thing ya know. It showed me that it can be fun to play even if you get yer arse kicked. So your friend shouldn't feel too bad.

Brother Thomas wrote:The kid is playing a game based around uttter death and destruction. Space marines embody merciless killing of the enemy. Grim dark future of 40k has no place for crybabys

Or it's a game of toy soldiers, and has no place for serious adults.