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Very true.

riverhawks32 wrote:

Bobthehero wrote:

Compel wrote:Karandras was able to take on a (Venerable?) Dreadnought in close combat in Path of the Warrior.

I won't spoil how it turned out.... However, I think it's a fair comparison really, all things considered.

Meh... considering a squad of Kasrkins and an IG captain managed to take out a Chaos dread by charging it...

Pshhhh Mkoll took out a dreadnought by himself in Gaunt's Ghosts

And managed to out-stalk a Mandrake.


And so I was wrong about the Primarchs being represented. Big deal. They might not be stronger, but on one-on-one, they should be able to fight a Phoenix Lord. And that doesn't factor in the Primarchs' special abilities and legions. Lion, Fulgrim, Lorgar, Khan, Guilliman, Horus, Corax, and Alpharius Omegon would outsmart them and wipe them out in a series of bloody traps. Russ (who specializes in killing psykers), Angron, Sanguinius, and Kurze would tear them apart. Magnus would bring the very Heavens crashing down. Dorn and Perturabo would grind them to paste. Ferrus Manus, Mortarion, and Vulkan would crush them without mercy, regardless of how much fire is directed against them.

the Agron rules were build for the "less is more" line of dex's, we all know that if they updated him... Draigo would be tame in comparison.

OT: Dont forget Jain zar also fought the Callidus assassin in the Inquision war book, she didnt even break a sweat, so P lords should have Assassin stats +1 (except str/t should stay at 4, with certain lords being higher) and that Drazar is pretty much the P lord of the Incubi... wasnt he the scorp lord too?

Formosa wrote:the Agron rules were build for the "less is more" line of dex's, we all know that if they updated him... Draigo would be tame in comparison.

OT: Dont forget Jain zar also fought the Callidus assassin in the Inquision war book, she didnt even break a sweat, so P lords should have Assassin stats +1 (except str/t should stay at 4, with certain lords being higher) and that Drazar is pretty much the P lord of the Incubi... wasnt he the scorp lord too?

So was the current Eldar Codex. It was printed at the same time of "less is more".

And Tadashi, your rant about how thorougly the Space Marine Legions would destroy all before them is not the point of the thread. We're talking about Phoenix Lord power levels, not Space Marine Legion power levels.

So please try to keep on topic.

Formosa wrote:the Agron rules were build for the "less is more" line of dex's, we all know that if they updated him... Draigo would be tame in comparison.

OT: Dont forget Jain zar also fought the Callidus assassin in the Inquision war book, she didnt even break a sweat, so P lords should have Assassin stats +1 (except str/t should stay at 4, with certain lords being higher) and that Drazar is pretty much the P lord of the Incubi... wasnt he the scorp lord too?

It is rumoured that Drazar is Ahra, the fallen pheonix. Karandas duelled with him to see who would be the lord of the scorpions. Not sure who won, but Karandas is still an Eldar and Drazar is now DE.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:

And Tadashi, your rant about how thorougly the Space Marine Legions would destroy all before them is not the point of the thread. We're talking about Phoenix Lord power levels, not Space Marine Legion power levels.

So please try to keep on topic.

Right, sorry 'bout that. Ok, I'm in a good mood right now, so I'll be reasonable. I guess it would depend on the Primarch. Confronting Angron while he's in a berserker fury would be insanity, but with the proper tactics, one can actually use it to one's advantage. The most dangerous ones are Russ, Magnus, Sanguinius, Horus, and Alpharius Omegon.

Russ is not only one of the more powerful close-combat Primarchs, but his most dangerous ability is his psychic howl. At Shrike, it slaughtered the Atheneans in the Second Fellowship, and shook two Thousand Son magisters: T'kar and Ahriman. Think of how much deadlier it would be against Eldar - Atheneans are probably as strong as mainline Seers, and Magisters as Farseers.

Magnus is probably a better close-combat fighter than Russ - Russ only kept up because Magnus was distracted preparing the spell that would transport the Thousand Sons to the Planet of the Sorcerers, and even then Magnus was only brought down by a lucky punch. In sorcery, no other Primarch comes close, and I doubt even Horus would have dared confront him on that grounds.

Sanguinius has the ferocity of Angron, but unlike Angron, he doesn't go all berserker, so this guy is probably the most dangerous close-combat opponent to face. Not to mention his own keen precognitive abilities.

Horus - he was the mightiest, and most intelligent, of the Primarchs, and one of two people apart from the Emperor who could best Angron, the other being Sanguinius. While not everyone may have liked him, all the Primarchs agreed he was the best among them.

Alpharius Omegon - never, EVER, face these guys on their terms. Only Horus and the Emperor can hope to keep up if they engage on their terms, which is more often than not what they try to do.

Tadashi wrote:

Right, sorry 'bout that. Ok, I'm in a good mood right now, so I'll be reasonable. I guess it would depend on the Primarch. Confronting Angron while he's in a berserker fury would be insanity, but with the proper tactics, one can actually use it to one's advantage. The most dangerous ones are Russ, Magnus, Sanguinius, Horus, and Alpharius Omegon.

Russ is not only one of the more powerful close-combat Primarchs, but his most dangerous ability is his psychic howl. At Shrike, it slaughtered the Atheneans in the Second Fellowship, and shook two Thousand Son magisters: T'kar and Ahriman. Think of how much deadlier it would be against Eldar - Atheneans are probably as strong as mainline Seers, and Magisters as Farseers.

Magnus is probably a better close-combat fighter than Russ - Russ only kept up because Magnus was distracted preparing the spell that would transport the Thousand Sons to the Planet of the Sorcerers, and even then Magnus was only brought down by a lucky punch. In sorcery, no other Primarch comes close, and I doubt even Horus would have dared confront him on that grounds.

Sanguinius has the ferocity of Angron, but unlike Angron, he doesn't go all berserker, so this guy is probably the most dangerous close-combat opponent to face. Not to mention his own keen precognitive abilities.

Horus - he was the mightiest, and most intelligent, of the Primarchs, and one of two people apart from the Emperor who could best Angron, the other being Sanguinius. While not everyone may have liked him, all the Primarchs agreed he was the best among them.

Alpharius Omegon - never, EVER, face these guys on their terms. Only Horus and the Emperor can hope to keep up if they engage on their terms, which is more often than not what they try to do.

I have a couple of problems with the points you make here, Tadashi:

How are the Atheneans anywhere near comparable to the Eldar? The Eldar are the most powerful psykers in existence, fluffwise. They have the ability to completely strip the souls from beings and nullify some of the strongest psychic powers. I'd imagine that a Farseer would be more than capable of defending against a 'Psychic Howl'.

Magus was most certainly not a "better close-combat fighter than Russ", in fact, his Close-combat abilities, while impressive, were quite overshadowed by those of his brothers.

Sanguinius and Angron were said to be basically even in combat; Sanguinius could handle Angron but both were skilled enough to prove more than a match for each other.

Horus was not the "mightiest" nor was he the most "intelligent". Both are subjective to the one he is compared to. While yes, Horus excelled at almost all aspects those such as Magnus excelled his psychic and intellectual potential and Angron, his comat prowess. Also, not all Primarchs "agreed he was the best among them" - remember when many of the Primarchs believed that Lion'El Johnson should have been Warmaster?

Really? Despite all their guile and subterfuge Gullieman still managed to, apparently, clobber one and take the Alpha legion by surprise.

Iranna.

Iranna wrote:
How are the Atheneans anywhere near comparable to the Eldar? The Eldar are the most powerful psykers in existence, fluffwise. They have the ability to completely strip the souls from beings and nullify some of the strongest psychic powers. I'd imagine that a Farseer would be more than capable of defending against a 'Psychic Howl'.

First off, Atheneans are dedicated telepaths. All their powers are focused on that single aspect. Yes, Eldar are more powerful psykers, but as telepaths they're equalled by or are outclassed by Atheneans. And I never said a Farseer would be killed by Russ' psychic howl. I only stated that they were equalled by a Thousand Son magister, who I explicitly stated as shaken, not killed.

Magus was most certainly not a "better close-combat fighter than Russ", in fact, his Close-combat abilities, while impressive, were quite overshadowed by those of his brothers.

The latter part yes, but if you read A Thousand Sons, you'd know Magnus was dividing his focus between fighting Russ and casting the spell that would send his legion to the Planet of the Sorcerers. Even so, he could easily keep up with Russ, and nearly killed him too, if not for a lucky punch from his opponent.

Sanguinius and Angron were said to be basically even in combat; Sanguinius could handle Angron but both were skilled enough to prove more than a match for each other.

Even so, Angron has a weakness since he's a berserker. An intelligent opponent could take advantage of that. And Sanguinius was not a berserker, not to mention being the only Primarch that Horus considered as better than himself. Probably because he and Horus embodied all of the Emperor's traits.

Horus was not the "mightiest" nor was he the most "intelligent". Both are subjective to the one he is compared to. While yes, Horus excelled at almost all aspects those such as Magnus excelled his psychic and intellectual potential and Angron, his comat prowess. Also, not all Primarchs "agreed he was the best among them" - remember when many of the Primarchs believed that Lion'El Johnson should have been Warmaster?

Horus was the only one who actually defeated Angron in single combat. Sanguinius was only assumed (though probably correctly) to be able to best Angron. And Horus was the greatest among the Primarchs. The Horus Heresy proves it. As a specialist, he probably was not as good as some of the other Primarchs, but he and Sanguinius were the only ones to fully embody all of the Emperor's traits.

Really? Despite all their guile and subterfuge Gullieman still managed to, apparently, clobber one and take the Alpha legion by surprise.

Are we even sure Guilliman killed Alpharius? And whose to say the Battle of Eskrador wasn't a plot by the Alpha Legion to make it easier for them to fade into the galactic hinterland, and to confuse the Imperium with regards to their Primarchs' status?

yellowfever wrote:In the newest night lord book Void Stalker they fight the banshee P lord. She killed all of them except one. Even 6 to 1 they were no match for her. I thought it represented what a P lord should be capable of well.

BlaxicanX wrote:VOID STALKER SPOILER-

I thought she was under-represented, personally. Yes, it was pretty much established that Jain Zarr was superior to any of them 1 on 1. However, she spent the entire book getting wounded pretty bad by Talos and co. before her eventually death. All things considered, I feel that the Howling Banshee P. Lord should have had an easier time taking out ten or so CSM.

Same for that P. Lord from the Path of the Warrior books. His death was lame.

I don't think it is Jain Zar, it's just a superbly pissed off Exarch, they have similar weapons after all.

She also invokes her Phoenix Lords name before she dies as her death mantra

Tadashi wrote:Horus was the only one who actually defeated Angron in single combat.

Really? You have proof of that do you?

Tadashi wrote:And Horus was the greatest among the Primarchs. The Horus Heresy proves it. As a specialist, he probably was not as good as some of the other Primarchs, but he and Sanguinius were the only ones to fully embody all of the Emperor's traits.

Betrayal and a thirst for blood being the evident traits

Maugan Ra stood up to an entire Tendril of a Hive Fleet on his Bill and won. That's something, depending on how big the tendril was. Could a Primarch do that?

Roadkill Zombie wrote:There isn't enough fluff about Phoenix Lords to make the assumption that they are not as powerful as a primarch. They may very well be. I guess we may find out when the next codex comes out for Eldar.

Fluff wise Primarchs are not gods and Eldar Phoenix Lords ARE demi gods.

Phoenix lords are about on par with a marine chapter master, considering that calgar beat an avatar, an actual eldar god.

Didnt Fulgrim take a gak on an avatar, a falcon, AND eldrads personal wraithlord bodyguard with a sword? The same part of the book describes Lucius as dueling 3 banshees at once and toying with them.

And Lorgar got his torso shredded by a lightning claw from Corax, and it begin reknitting itself almost instantly and he kept fighting. Im pretty sure if the same thing happened to a phoenix lord it would be dead, or at least that reincarnation of it.

I heard somewhere that leman russ jumped off a building, punched a warhound titans cockpit, and the impact killed the crew. But that sounds like a stretch.

The primarchs dont have rules, because they are too powerful to be fielded. They fill an important plot function, same with the emperor. They show you how powerful humanity was previously, and how far it has fallen. From entire legions lead by the unstoppable primarchs, to small chapters trying their best to maintain the current borders of imperial space. During the crusade the generals of the emperors armies were these super-beings, incredibly intelligent, more deadly than almost anything seen before, and very well educated. Look at who leads the emperors armies now. Religious fanatics, administrative donkey-caves, and chapter masters who are incredibly superstitious.

And I wouldnt be bothered that eldar dont stand up to marines in a direct way. Fluffwise, they almost never commit to large, direct battles, and when they do its with terrible losses. Marines are genetically engineered shock troops, you would figure that their incredibly potent kings would be able to slap around pretty much anything else. So sure, jain zar gets her face crushed by sanguinus, angron, or any of the other primarchs. But this is irrelevant, as the eldar dont fight direct engagements like that. A phoneix lord is much more likely to avoid a primarch as long as possible and try and do maximum damage elsewhere disrupting things.

I never understood eldar players getting mad that their race's combat masters cant stand up to some of the other races, they arent a tough race. Marines are the group that drop in from the skies, guns blazing, and crush the enemy in fast, direct engagements. Eldar will attack some small moon outpost, because it prevents a demon from awakening in 500 years or whatever.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Horus was the only one who actually defeated Angron in single combat.

Really? You have proof of that do you?

In Raven's Flight, it was stated that during the HH only Horus and Sanguinius could defeat Angron in close combat.

Tadashi wrote:And Horus was the greatest among the Primarchs. The Horus Heresy proves it. As a specialist, he probably was not as good as some of the other Primarchs, but he and Sanguinius were the only ones to fully embody all of the Emperor's traits.

Betrayal and a thirst for blood being the evident traits

Yeah...no. Sanguinius chained his blood lust off the battlefield, and did not go on bloody rages like Angron.

Eidolon wrote:
I never understood eldar players getting mad that their race's combat masters cant stand up to some of the other races, they arent a tough race. Marines are the group that drop in from the skies, guns blazing, and crush the enemy in fast, direct engagements. Eldar will attack some small moon outpost, because it prevents a demon from awakening in 500 years or whatever.

Because just like Imperial players and fans, and let's be candid, who are proud and xenophobic like the Imperium, Eldar players and fans are arrogant and high horsed like their faction. Imperials crush the opponent with overwhelming power. The Primarchs are superior to Phoenix Lords in that regard. PURE, OVERWHELMING POWER THAT TRANSCENDS TECHNIQUE.

Tadashi wrote:
In Raven's Flight, it was stated that during the HH only Horus and Sanguinius could defeat Angron in close combat.

No, it's only thought by Corax that perhaps only Horus or Sanguinius could defeat Angron. There's a big difference between being able to do something and actually doing it.

Tadashi wrote:

Yeah...no. Sanguinius chained his blood lust off the battlefield, and did not go on bloody rages like Angron.

So you have lots of background stories about Sanguinius taking tea do you? My point was on the battle field, both have a thirst for blood, they are warriors after all.

Pilau Rice wrote:
Maugan Ra stood up to an entire Tendril of a Hive Fleet on his Bill and won. That's something, depending on how big the tendril was. Could a Primarch do that?

Of course they can. Magnus certainly could, as his control of the Warp was only limited by his own blind pride, and even then was surpassed only by the Emperor. And if Russ could hold his own against Magnus- even when the latter was distracted - he certainly could do it too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
In Raven's Flight, it was stated that during the HH only Horus and Sanguinius could defeat Angron in close combat.

No, it's only thought by Corax that perhaps only Horus or Sanguinius could defeat Angron. There's a big difference between being able to do something and actually doing it.

But no one said either that they couldn't do it.

Tadashi wrote:

Yeah...no. Sanguinius chained his blood lust off the battlefield, and did not go on bloody rages like Angron.

So you have lots of background stories about Sanguinius taking tea do you? My point was on the battle field, both have a thirst for blood, they are warriors after all.

My point is that Sanguinius wasn't a berserker like Angron. Otherwise, the Blood Angels wou;d have gained the same reputation as the World Eaters.

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:
Maugan Ra stood up to an entire Tendril of a Hive Fleet on his Bill and won. That's something, depending on how big the tendril was. Could a Primarch do that?

Of course they can. Magnus certainly could, as his control of the Warp was only limited by his own blind pride, and even then was surpassed only by the Emperor. And if Russ could hold his own against Magnus- even when the latter was distracted - he certainly could do it too.

True, but your outright claim that Phoenix Lords aren't comparative to Primarchs is flawed. Certain Primarchs would eventually get beaten and Russ, without psychic talents like Magnus would be one of these. With the Shadow, it's quite probable that even Magnus would have a hard time.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
In Raven's Flight, it was stated that during the HH only Horus and Sanguinius could defeat Angron in close combat.

No, it's only thought by Corax that perhaps only Horus or Sanguinius could defeat Angron. There's a big difference between being able to do something and actually doing it.

But no one said either that they couldn't do it.

And no one said that they had done it.

Tadashi wrote:My point is that Sanguinius wasn't a berserker like Angron. Otherwise, the Blood Angels wou;d have gained the same reputation as the World Eaters.

Yet the Blood Angels and the World Eaters have been compared.

Edit: quote tags

Pilau Rice wrote:


True, but your outright claim that Phoenix Lords aren't comparative to Primarchs is flawed. Certain Primarchs would eventually get beaten and Russ, without psychic talents like Magnus would be one of these. With the Shadow, it's quite probable that even Magnus would have a hard time.

They were all psykers to a certain degree. They just didn't use it, or were unaware of their abilities. Even Russ (who was viciously anti-psyker) had a devastating psychic howl.

Yet the Blood Angels and the World Eaters have been compared.

Compared is the word. And by who? The post-Heresy Imperium? Well duh, the only reason the Ordo Hereticus hasn't investigated them is because of their status as a First Founding Legion and their reputation, not to mention their semi-autonomous status as Space Marines.

This discussion is getting pointless. There just isn't enough fluff for the Pheonix Lords OR the Primarchs to compare. You can't say who would win.

Really, it seems the most we have on Pheonix Lords is that they are at least the equivalent of a Chapter Master, and MAY be the equivalent of a Primarch.

Do I take that view personally? No. But I recognize that their fluff is sufficiently vague that it is a perfectly valid interpretation, and pointless to argue against.

They are painted as performing deeds worthy of a primarch, but we are not given specifics as to how they were accomplished. They are given to have experience and finess far outstripping many primarchs (at least outside of their area of expertise), but would likely fall behind in pure power.

Please don't argue against each others personal canon when there is not sufficient fluff to really say one way or the other.

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Yet the Blood Angels and the World Eaters have been compared.

Compared is the word. And by who? The post-Heresy Imperium? Well duh, the only reason the Ordo Hereticus hasn't investigated them is because of their status as a First Founding Legion and their reputation, not to mention their semi-autonomous status as Space Marines.

Err, not just post as far as I know, but pre. They were supposed to share the same preference for close combat fighting and being a rather bloody lot. The World Eaters didn't care that the Imperium knew about it.

riplikash wrote:This discussion is getting pointless. There just isn't enough fluff for the Pheonix Lords OR the Primarchs to compare. You can't say who would win.

Really, it seems the most we have on Pheonix Lords is that they are at least the equivalent of a Chapter Master, and MAY be the equivalent of a Primarch.

Do I take that view personally? No. But I recognize that their fluff is sufficiently vague that it is a perfectly valid interpretation, and pointless to argue against.

They are painted as performing deeds worthy of a primarch, but we are not given specifics as to how they were accomplished. They are given to have experience and finess far outstripping many primarchs (at least outside of their area of expertise), but would likely fall behind in pure power.

Please don't argue against each others personal canon when there is not sufficient fluff to really say one way or the other.

If only Coa were here...*sigh*. Last I heard he was on account suspension for trolling. If he were here, this thread would be covered in corpses (figuratively speaking, of course).

Could some of you guys at least TRY to stay on topic? Pretty please!
There are/were/will be butt-loads of topics comparing Primachs/Chapters between one another. This is not one of them.

Tadashi wrote:
If only Coa were here...*sigh*. Last I heard he was on account suspension for trolling. If he were here, this thread would be covered in corpses (figuratively speaking, of course).

I can't tell if you consider that a good or a bad thing.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Yet the Blood Angels and the World Eaters have been compared.

Compared is the word. And by who? The post-Heresy Imperium? Well duh, the only reason the Ordo Hereticus hasn't investigated them is because of their status as a First Founding Legion and their reputation, not to mention their semi-autonomous status as Space Marines.

Err, not just post as far as I know, but pre. They were supposed to share the same preference for close combat fighting and being a rather bloody lot. The World Eaters didn't care that the Imperium knew about it.

So did the Space Wolves in fact. But the Blood Angels weren't considered a gang of thugs like the World Eaters at least. Bloody, yes. Monstrous? No.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

riplikash wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
If only Coa were here...*sigh*. Last I heard he was on account suspension for trolling. If he were here, this thread would be covered in corpses (figuratively speaking, of course).

I can't tell if you consider that a good or a bad thing.

Bad.

The Blood Ravens are holding on their own, but the Ultramarines need to get here ASAP.

riplikash wrote:This discussion is getting pointless. There just isn't enough fluff for the Pheonix Lords OR the Primarchs to compare. You can't say who would win.

Really, it seems the most we have on Pheonix Lords is that they are at least the equivalent of a Chapter Master, and MAY be the equivalent of a Primarch.

Do I take that view personally? No. But I recognize that their fluff is sufficiently vague that it is a perfectly valid interpretation, and pointless to argue against.

They are painted as performing deeds worthy of a primarch, but we are not given specifics as to how they were accomplished. They are given to have experience and finess far outstripping many primarchs (at least outside of their area of expertise), but would likely fall behind in pure power.

Please don't argue against each others personal canon when there is not sufficient fluff to really say one way or the other.

Which is what I am trying to bring to light. Without exact instances of how powerful each are it's just speculation and fanboyism. But to declare that one is more powerful than the other is stupid.

Macok wrote:Could some of you guys at least TRY to stay on topic? Pretty please!
There are/were/will be butt-loads of topics comparing Primachs/Chapters between one another. This is not one of them.

The Phoenix Lords were compared to Primarchs earlier in the thread and the Legion discussion generally is a by product of that, apologies. When trying to get a power level you have to use something as a comparative.

Tadashi wrote:So did the Space Wolves in fact. But the Blood Angels weren't considered a gang of thugs like the World Eaters at least. Bloody, yes. Monstrous? No..

Thank you

riplikash wrote:This discussion is getting pointless. There just isn't enough fluff for the Pheonix Lords OR the Primarchs to compare. You can't say who would win.

Really, it seems the most we have on Pheonix Lords is that they are at least the equivalent of a Chapter Master, and MAY be the equivalent of a Primarch.

Do I take that view personally? No. But I recognize that their fluff is sufficiently vague that it is a perfectly valid interpretation, and pointless to argue against.

They are painted as performing deeds worthy of a primarch, but we are not given specifics as to how they were accomplished. They are given to have experience and finess far outstripping many primarchs (at least outside of their area of expertise), but would likely fall behind in pure power.

Please don't argue against each others personal canon when there is not sufficient fluff to really say one way or the other.

Considering 2/3 of the Phoenix Lords either wouldn't bother with HTH or attack first (banshee mask) this whole approach of Monkeigh better is...interesting. Yes a lion can kill a hunter if the hunter is stupid, else the hunter shoots the lion from 300 yards away. Foolish Monkeigh, bringing a knife to a gun fight...

I'm really not sure why you are addressing me. I didn't say anything about the Primarchs being better or melee fighting.

Beyond that I'm not sure what to make of your comparison. Are you claiming SM don't use ranged weaponry? Are you artificially giving one side the element of surprise or superior equipment/preparation?

The whole comparison doesn't make sense. If one were to have a discussion of "who would win, a human or a lion" I can't imagine the implied question would be "if the human could sneak up on the lion and shoot it with a gun". Likewise a discussion of Pheonix Lords vs Primarchs would not revolve around "could a pheonix lord beat a primarch with a sniper rifle at 3000 yards". Ok, obviously the Pheonix lord wins. Heck, a regular human could beat a Primarch in that situation.

Certainly one could argue a Catachan could beat a hive tyrant using guile, preparation, and superior equipment. But in a discussion of power levels, obviously the hive tyrant comes out on top. Similarly, in this discussion all that matters is, could a Phoenix Lord take on a Primarch in a 1 on 1 fight (not necessarily melee) with equal access to equipment, knowledge of the situation, and time to prepare. The answer is, we don't know.

The only point I attempted to make was a direct comparison is fruitless due to lack of data. Did you just not read my post?

who cares about the primarchs lol, i want more on the P'lords in a p lord thread.

there is a fair amount of fluff on some of the P lords, Maugan sliced (what may have been a Trigon, it didnt exist in the codex at the time) in half and held up a swarm with his reapers, this was on Inyanden.

Jain zar as some have noted has fluff in a few places.

Does anyone know if we have anything on any of the others?

riplikash wrote:I'm really not sure why you are addressing me. I didn't say anything about the Primarchs being better or melee fighting.

You're was a nice quote at the time. The power level of primarch vs. Phoenix Lords is misplaced. Primarchs may be excellent commanders and excellent HTH fighters, but PLords are the best of a race naturally superior to humans, and they play more with ranged weaponry, actually fly, or have equipment that stuns humans.

Beyond that I'm not sure what to make of your comparison. Are you claiming SM don't use ranged weaponry?

Generally no, beyond a bolt pistol. Angron is not known for his supernatural skill with a lascannon. in contrast, thats the shtick of most of the Phoenix Lords.

Are you artificially giving one side the element of surprise or superior equipment/preparation?

Not artificial. Again, its their shtick. A pointy stick is no match for a fast firing missile launcher or some guy bombing you from the air.

If you're going to compare the power level of primarchs to PLords you have to compare what they are actually capable of, not just Primarch HURR HURR!

Frazzled wrote:

riplikash wrote:I'm really not sure why you are addressing me. I didn't say anything about the Primarchs being better or melee fighting.

You're was a nice quote at the time. The power level of primarch vs. Phoenix Lords is misplaced. Primarchs may be excellent commanders and excellent HTH fighters, but PLords are the best of a race naturally superior to humans, and they play more with ranged weaponry, actually fly, or have equipment that stuns humans.

Beyond that I'm not sure what to make of your comparison. Are you claiming SM don't use ranged weaponry?

Generally no, beyond a bolt pistol. Angron is not known for his supernatural skill with a lascannon. in contrast, thats the shtick of most of the Phoenix Lords.

Are you artificially giving one side the element of surprise or superior equipment/preparation?

Not artificial. Again, its their shtick. A pointy stick is no match for a fast firing missile launcher or some guy bombing you from the air.

If you're going to compare the power level of primarchs to PLords you have to compare what they are actually capable of, not just Primarch HURR HURR!

I'm not rising to this. It wasn't a convenient quote, you weren't addressing what i said at all. I've never made a comparison between the two, and only said it is pointless to make comparisons. We just don't know enough about the full capabilities of either side.

The Pheonix Lords and the Primarchs are masters of war. It is silly to try to pidgin hole either side. The Imperial supporters have been attempting to do that to the Pheonix Lords, and now you are attempting to do the same thing to the Primarchs. They are known for being trained masters of all aspects of warfare, and typically act as generals. Of course they are typically depicted with bolt pistols, that is the weapon of an officer and commander. But they are also known for distinguishing themselves in the fields of stealth, strength, melee prowess, firearm prowess, and every other martial art.

They are both gods of war, but we do not have sufficient info to make any meaningful comparison.

When was the last time a primarch killed something with a ranged weapon?

Mortarion. Your argument is invalid. lol

Again, at the time most of the stories are written they are acting as GENERALS! Officers typically carry a sidearm, and in certain cultures a melee weapon such as a saber. But most of their background makes a point of how they excelled at the use of all weaponry, tactics, and techniques.

Am I arguing they ar a better shot than a range weaponry focused Pheonix Lord? Obviously not. But there is that goes into a conflict than that. Stealth, tactics, skill, endurance, equipment, and location are going to have a big effect. You know, all those things we CAN'T really compare, because we lack adequate information?

There is a reason real world militaries don't just equip all their troops as sharpshooters.

Sure, on open ground, if the Primarch is equipped as a commanding officer and the Pheonix Lord is equipped with ranged weaponry their preternatural skill with firearms, honed over millenia is probably going to win out. But that is an overly one sided situation to use for comparison.

Can we drop the primarch thing now, stop derailing the thread, and move on to more interesting discussions?