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Hi Dakka!

There was a thread some time ago about exceptionally powerful beings in the standard 40k game. If they should be included or should stay unreachable / unimaginable in terms of their talents.
That got me wondering; how dangerous exactly are the Phoenix Lords? Are they kinda small Primarchs of the Eldar or not even close? It there any good source that tells how good they actually are?

As a bonus:
We know they have died several times and other Eldar took their place. Can you give me any example who managed to slain a Phoenix Lord (source would be great). Any spectacular feats they have accomplished (like Maugan Ra vs Tyranids)?


So, what does the scouter say about their power level?

Aside from the obvious over 9000 jokes, I would say they rank amongst the most skilled, if not most deadly, beings in the galaxy.
I know most of the named Dark Eldar characters, like I am fairly sure Vect has killed one 1v1.

Karandras was able to take on a (Venerable?) Dreadnought in close combat in Path of the Warrior.

I won't spoil how it turned out.... However, I think it's a fair comparison really, all things considered.

I think the term 'mini-primarch' would be pushing it. In my mind you have primarch level (a level currently unknown in the galaxy), EW special character powerhouse level (Ghazkul, Mephiston, Abbadon, Draigo, etc.) who represent legends beyond what mortals can typically achieve, and then the level that encompasses SC like Pheonix Lords, Chapter Masters, and the like. The apex of their race, but not legends whose names cross the galaxy.

riplikash wrote:I think the term 'mini-primarch' would be pushing it. In my mind you have primarch level (a level currently unknown in the galaxy), EW special character powerhouse level (Ghazkul, Mephiston, Abbadon, Draigo, etc.) who represent legends beyond what mortals can typically achieve, and then the level that encompasses SC like Pheonix Lords, Chapter Masters, and the like. The apex of their race, but not legends whose names cross the galaxy.

I agree to a point, but the Phoenix lords should be up there with Draigo mephy ... not abbdon or ghazy though as these 2 are THE big bad of there factions and while Draigo is coolio and what not, that mantle im afraid goes to papa smurf Calgar (fluff wise), its just because the Eldar dex is old though, when they get updated i imagine the P lords will be uber badass

Compel wrote:Karandras was able to take on a (Venerable?) Dreadnought in close combat in Path of the Warrior.

I won't spoil how it turned out.... However, I think it's a fair comparison really, all things considered.

Meh... considering a squad of Kasrkins and an IG captain managed to take out a Chaos dread by charging it...

Formosa wrote:

riplikash wrote:I think the term 'mini-primarch' would be pushing it. In my mind you have primarch level (a level currently unknown in the galaxy), EW special character powerhouse level (Ghazkul, Mephiston, Abbadon, Draigo, etc.) who represent legends beyond what mortals can typically achieve, and then the level that encompasses SC like Pheonix Lords, Chapter Masters, and the like. The apex of their race, but not legends whose names cross the galaxy.

I agree to a point, but the Phoenix lords should be up there with Draigo mephy ... not abbdon or ghazy though as these 2 are THE big bad of there factions and while Draigo is coolio and what not, that mantle im afraid goes to papa smurf Calgar (fluff wise), its just because the Eldar dex is old though, when they get updated i imagine the P lords will be uber badass

Yeah, the list was more to give an idea of 'galactic level threat' than actually make a list of power level.

That being said, I thought Draigo and Mephiston WERE supposed to be crazy, galactic level threats, and beyond Calgar? Draigo being the most legendary Chapter Master of a chapter that is supposed to be to marines what marines are to humans, capable of rampaging through the strongholds of chaos (as silly as much of it is), and Mephiston being some kind of pseudo daemonic warp entity beyond mortal ken?

I would definately say that the Phoenix Lords, fluffwise, rival the power of a Primarch. After all, they are tens of thousands of years old and have never truly 'died'; 20,000+ years of experience in devotion to one aspect of war tends to make a being into a literal Demi-God of war.

Having said that, I can see the argument that while Phoenix Lords are incredibly skilled and powerful individuals, the level of 'Primarch-esque' has largely been undefined throughout the game and as such, isn't really comparable to anything actually represented in the rules.

Overall though, with the current fluff available, I would put Phoenix Lords in the power-bracket of Greater Daemons, C'tan shards (to a lesser extent) and the Avatar.

Iranna.

I'd say that Pheonix Lords are pretty close to Primarch level in fluff terms. Look at Maugan Ra. It's already been touched on that he took on an entire Tyranid swarm single handedly and won (even without the bias of his own codex), he also wandered into the eye of terror and came back out again with a Craftworld. Just coming out of the Eye of Terror is a pretty mean feat.

Basically, this is why I'm asking.
Maugan Ra did those incredible, over the top things that even Draigo is jealous.
I've read somewhere (might have been a hogwash) that Baharroth is the fastest Eldar that ever existed. That is basically "WTF just happened?" to almost any living creature.
But there is so little in the lore about their actual accomplishments. At least the ones I've got my hands on. They are extremely powerful and ancient and skilled etc. but so are many things in wh40k.
They do apparently stroll around webway and EoT alone, are practically immortal, have several times the experience of any living being, their physique is way above already incredible fast race, but there are very few specifics about them (excluding maybe the already mentioned Ra). This makes it hard for me to put them in their right place on a food chain.

Macok wrote:
I've read somewhere (might have been a hogwash) that Baharroth is the fastest Eldar that ever existed. That is basically "WTF just happened?" to almost any living creature.

Lelith Hesperax and her Initiative 9 would like a word with you...

Iranna.

Fluff///tabletop, Iranna.

Eiríkr wrote:Fluff///tabletop, Iranna.

No no, rules =/= fluff.

Stats can be quite indicative of a character's abilities; especially those above 8.

Iranna.

sorry but no phoenix lord comes close to the primarchs in the fluff, they have a level of fluff armour that cannot be matched by any Xenos race lol

but this isnt about that anyway, i do agee that the P lords do need to become masters of there aspects (properly) id even go as far as something as broken as Maugan having a heavy 6 Eldar missile launcher... that would delete anything lol

Primarch > Phoenix Lord

Let me point this out: Lorgar, one of the less combat-oriented Primarchs, defeated an Avatar and Ann'grath on the same day, and only with 'serious' injuries (before anyone says 'It's BL, its not canon!', GW has since declared the HH novels canon). What more if I pit a combat-oriented Primarch, like Sanguinius or Angron, against a Phoenix Lord? Those two would destroy any Phoenix Lord sent against them. And Heaven forbid, I send Leman Russ. Knowing him, once the Phoenix Lord is dead, he'd probably destroy the armor. Normally I'm not fond of Russ or his douchebaggery, but in this case, it would be very interesting to see what happens when a Phoenix Lord's armor is destroyed. Those guys aren't represented on the TT simply because they'd tear through anything sent against them, except another Primarch or the Emperor.

There isn't enough fluff about Phoenix Lords to make the assumption that they are not as powerful as a primarch. They may very well be. I guess we may find out when the next codex comes out for Eldar.

So far the fluff has them doing things you would expect a Primarch to do and in some cases even more.

Maugan Ra going into the Eye of Terror, fighting innumerable daemons, finding his lost craftworld, leading them back out of the EOT and using them to stop Abbadon the Despoiler from gaining ultimate victory is a pretty primarchy thing to do...if...ya know...primarchs were Eldar.

Fluff wise Primarchs are not gods and Eldar Phoenix Lords ARE demi gods.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
Maugan Ra going into the Eye of Terror, fighting innumerable daemons, finding his lost craftworld, leading them back out of the EOT and using them to stop Abbadon the Despoiler from gaining ultimate victory is a pretty primarchy thing to do...if...ya know...primarchs were Eldar.

"Sakura, did you know Lorgar and the Word Bearers went into the Eye of Terror too?"
"I didn't know that!"

Fluff wise Primarchs are not gods and Eldar Phoenix Lords ARE demi gods.

Wrong. The funny thing is, while the Emperor kept on denying that He was a god, people kept referring to the Primarchs as demi-gods during the Crusade. The Emperor was a god in all but name - He just kept on denying it. That makes Primarchs demi-gods. Phoenix Lords are not - they're just Exarchs on steroids.

Your making my point Tadashi...It's a primarch thing to do...enter the Eye of Terror and all that...Lorgar is a primarch, no?

And from Codex Eldar 4th edition page 54 " The Phoenix Lords are demigods of battle, whose legends span the stars, the most ancient of the Eldar exarchs."

They ARE demi gods and were worshiped as such.

And just because people believed the Emperor was a diety doesn't make the Primarchs demi gods. That's like saying your car is a demi god of whatever car company made it based on the idea that the car company simply made said car...

The Eldar codex does say the Phoenix Lords are demi gods, it doesn't need an assumption.

But like I said, there isn't enough information to say wether they are an equal to a primarch...I suspect they are greater, but that's just speculation.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:

And from Codex Eldar 4th edition page 54 " The Phoenix Lords are demigods of battle, whose legends span the stars, the most ancient of the Eldar exarchs."

They ARE demi gods and were worshiped as such.

And just because people believed the Emperor was a diety doesn't make the Primarchs demi gods. That's like saying your car is a demi god of whatever car company made it based on the idea that the car company simply made said car...

And by that logic just because the Eldar worship them as demi-gods doesn't make them demi-gods either. In 40k, people believing in something makes it true. So if Humans believe the Emperor is a god, He becomes a god, even if He originally didn't want that. So Primarchs are demi-gods because they're the sons of a god (and are considered as such), and Phoenix Lords are demi-gods because the Eldar worship them.

The codex comes right out and says they ARE demi gods Tadashi. I even quoted it to you. You can't deny that they are because the proof is in the codex. But show me in your Space Marine codex where the Primarchs are demi gods?

Roadkill Zombie wrote:The codex comes right out and says they ARE demi gods Tadashi. I even quoted it to you. You can't deny that they are because the proof is in the codex. But show me in your Space Marine codex where the Primarchs are demi gods?

The HH novels which are canon since GW said so, speaks of Primarchs as demi-gods. Even Rogal Dorn was called a war god in Last Remembrancer.

But like I said, there isn't enough information to say wether they are an equal to a primarch...I suspect they are greater, but that's just speculation.

Primarchs are greater because the simple fact is that they're impossible to represent on the table top because they're too OP.

Tadashi wrote:
Primarchs are greater because the simple fact is that they're impossible to represent on the table top because they're too OP.

Angron has official rules for 5th edition 40k.

Angron, Mortarion, Fulgrim, and Magnus all head rules in Space Marine.

Primarchs aren't impossible to represent on the table. Angron has rules, as DarknessEternal pointed out. And they're not that crazy, all things considered.

I think the Pheonix Lords don't get enough credit. They're hardly talked about in the Eldar book, which is old enough anyway.

If anything, people keep giving the primarchs huge amounts of credit. It's like every Primarch has 7s for every stat across the board minimum (barring LD of course) and saying otherwise is sacrilegious.

Tadashi wrote:
Primarchs are greater because the simple fact is that they're impossible to represent on the table top because they're too OP.

For perhaps the first time I'm going to have to disagree with you. I think they aren't that OP and could all be represented on the tabletop (admittingly scary as hell, but I could see it being done). Frankly, I feel that people exaggerate the power of the Primarchs. Aside from the DP Primarchs, I'd imagine them being around Mephiston's statline with some greater here and there and some lesser here and there. With the DP Primarchs, I'd say figure out their Pre-Heresy statline (something similar to Mephiston) and then +1 to everything (With the exception of Angron, with his rage factor being over 9000 + Daemonhood, increase his strength to 10 and add on a unnegatable FNP)

Bobthehero wrote:

Compel wrote:Karandras was able to take on a (Venerable?) Dreadnought in close combat in Path of the Warrior.

I won't spoil how it turned out.... However, I think it's a fair comparison really, all things considered.

Meh... considering a squad of Kasrkins and an IG captain managed to take out a Chaos dread by charging it...

Pshhhh Mkoll took out a dreadnought by himself in Gaunt's Ghosts

A damaged one, and he did not charge the thing

I've seen the rules for Angron in Apocalypse. Being a Daemon Prince like he is they didn't make him so tough. He's basically a Daemon Prince with some nifty rules. He really isn't all that impressive. Some of his stats are not as good as a phoenix lord and some are better. I don't have any problems confidently taking Asurmen against him or Jain Zar or any of the other Phoenix Lords.

And he's a Primarch+Daemon. Given that the stats for him are daemonized, that would make the non daemon version about the same as a Phoenix Lord.

And just so you know, some of his stats are below 7

Bobthehero wrote:A damaged one, and he did not charge the thing

Still counts...

In the newest night lord book Void Stalker they fight the banshee P lord. She killed all of them except one. Even 6 to 1 they were no match for her. I thought it represented what a P lord should be capable of well.

VOID STALKER SPOILER-

I thought she was under-represented, personally. Yes, it was pretty much established that Jain Zarr was superior to any of them 1 on 1. However, she spent the entire book getting wounded pretty bad by Talos and co. before her eventually death. All things considered, I feel that the Howling Banshee P. Lord should have had an easier time taking out ten or so CSM.

Same for that P. Lord from the Path of the Warrior books. His death was lame.