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Also, Horus killed the false Emperor at the beginning of Horus Rising with a gun, not with his sword.

BlaxicanX wrote:Mortarion. Your argument is invalid. lol

What with what? This is several of the PLords bread and butter.

Now if we're saying "tiers of badassness" I'd definitely put them at primarch level. Like primarchs they are demigods in their own culture, and have a slew of victories far beyond mortals of their species. They have the capability to lead their aspects, and advanced weaponry.

Are they more powerful thean primarchs? As primarchs have no stats that impossible to say for certain. But they definitely have the same position in their respective cultures. Of course, they are still kicking about.

Frazzled wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:Mortarion. Your argument is invalid. lol

What with what?

You asked, "when has a Primarch ever killed someone with a ranged weapon".

I just told you when. lol

DOW2 has a Phoenix Lord as a boss in one level. That puts their power level at around 12 SMs. (Gain of salt)

is that good? I don't play Dawn of War.

nomotog wrote:DOW2 has a Phoenix Lord as a boss in one level. That puts their power level at around 12 SMs. (Gain of salt)

What? I don't remember a Phoenix Lord ever appearing.

Frazzled wrote:is that good? I don't play Dawn of War.

Also, is that a PLord or just an exarch?

There was never a phoenix lord in DoW2.

I hestitate to join a debate like this. I certanly do not want to start comparing them to other things in the fluff. Often it will depend on the need of the author in a given situation. Thinks to keep in mind with the Phoenix lords is that they are important fogures to the eldar. Eather in poletics or on the battlefield as commanders or as a hidden hand shaping the race the phoenix lords have a really big impact. A good place to read about theyr powers and limitattions would be the doom of myrelia the forge world book.

spoiler alert

there they talk about how a phoenix lord reads the runes or get help reading the runes and goes out and save the eldar race from an unknown race. and after that the imperial forces defeats the eldars but, being imortal, the eldars manadge to reclaim one of the lost phoenix lords, something witch is a big tip of the scales in the eldars favor in along term perspective.

It would be an interesting battle between a Primarch and a Phoenix Lord. They both have weapons that would be able to kill each other, but they are indicative of their species. The Primarchs are going to be much more "head on" scary, and if they catch you straight up at the beginning they will rip the Phoenix Lord limb from limb. However, the Eldar are extremely fast and skilled, so the Primarch wouldn't have the easiest time catching them either. Certain matchs would be much harder for one side or the other. Baharroth vs Angron would probably give Baharroth the advantage. Fly around until he sees a weak point, and use his incredible Eldar speed while dropping Grenades to exploit it. However, Baharroth vs Magnus would than put Magnus ahead as he could easily blow him out out of the sky. Magnus is weak vs either Karandras or Jain Zar but Angron could probably take them.

On and on as such. With lack of lore about them fighting we'll never know, and it's all so situation since everyone has their own Niche that the matchup is entirely dependent. The only thing I could say is the Primarchs are still human, and may be able to be outwitted in the fight by an Eldar. Someone like Asurmen may let a Primarch have the upper ground during the fight, just so when they became too pompous a single strike from his dire sword would end their life. It's all so situational.

I consider the Phoenix Lords like a Swiss Army Knife, with many gadgets and tricks but it would stink to use when taking down a tree. Primarchs would be like an Axe, real brute strength and can take down a tree or log with ease, but try to cut a precise line on clothe with them and they fail where the Phoenix Lords could succeed.

Gulliman killed Alpharius with a bolter.

As for Void Stalker, which I haven't read yet; did the "phoenix lord" in there bleed? If so, that wasn't a phoenix lord. They don't have physical bodies. Their body is completely annihilated when they first put on the armor.

Frazzled wrote:

Frazzled wrote:is that good? I don't play Dawn of War.

Also, is that a PLord or just an exarch?

I had to go back and check. It was just an exarch. I think I just remembered wrong.

DarknessEternal wrote:Gulliman killed Alpharius with a bolter.

You sure about that? This is the Alpha Legion we're talking about.

Tadashi wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Gulliman killed Alpharius with a bolter.

You sure about that? This is the Alpha Legion we're talking about.

No its completely wrong, they both went at each other samurai style and took a swing... alpharius dropped, Gulliman didnt. And thats even if it was Alpharius that was in the fight at all.

Formosa wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Gulliman killed Alpharius with a bolter.

You sure about that? This is the Alpha Legion we're talking about.

No its completely wrong, they both went at each other samurai style and took a swing... alpharius dropped, Gulliman didnt. And thats even if it was Alpharius that was in the fight at all.

My point was that do we really know it was Alpharius that Guilliman killed. Or was it Omegon? Or an Alpha Marine masquerading as one?

Tadashi wrote:

Formosa wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Gulliman killed Alpharius with a bolter.

You sure about that? This is the Alpha Legion we're talking about.

No its completely wrong, they both went at each other samurai style and took a swing... alpharius dropped, Gulliman didnt. And thats even if it was Alpharius that was in the fight at all.

My point was that do we really know it was Alpharius that Guilliman killed. Or was it Omegon? Or an Alpha Marine masquerading as one?

Im totally with you on that, i very much doubt it was A or O, as it was an honour thing and niether cared for such an outdated concept, why fight when you know you will lose? better to make the enemy think he has won... now that sounds like Alpha Legion

It was an Alpha Legionnaire pretending to be an Ultramarine pretending to be Omegon, but Guilliman though it was Alpharius.

Bobthehero wrote:It was an Alpha Legionnaire pretending to be an Ultramarine pretending to be Omegon, but Guilliman though it was Alpharius.

I asume this is lolz

Just to clarify, Omegon didnt exist in the fluff at the time and the Alpha impersonating ultra reinforcements was funny as hell, remember at this point the Legionaries had the Ultras soundly beaten, this war is an analogy of the U.S verus Vietnam or Russia vs Afganistan (my my how people forgot that one lol), I.E the small Gorilla army overcame the superior (in number ultras) force and forced them to leave (although the Ultras thought they left in Victory with the death of Alpharius)

Which version of that story are you remembering? Originally the Alpha Legion was soundly beaten. Alpharius had his rage-boner about Guilliman always disrespecting him and had the Alpha Legion engage in a stand up war so he could try and prove he could out-war Gulliman. Then the Alpha Legion got gutted like sheep.

DarknessEternal wrote:Which version of that story are you remembering? Originally the Alpha Legion was soundly beaten. Alpharius had his rage-boner about Guilliman always disrespecting him and had the Alpha Legion engage in a stand up war so he could try and prove he could out-war Gulliman. Then the Alpha Legion got gutted like sheep.

That never happened, I have no idea where you read that, but im getting this from index astartes

Alpha legion (note old fluff) felt slighted throughout the HH that they were looked down upon by the older legions and there fighting style was cowardly.... fast forward to the end of the heresy and the ultras (cant remmeber why) attack a planet occupied by the Alpha legion, Gulliman uses his codex and natural tactical genius to try and fight the Alphas in a straight up fight, this is not how the legion fights and ran rings around the ultras, even going so far as to paint themselves as ultras (this part here is why in 3rd youd see alot of AL armies with mixed loyalist units for lolz) Gulliman wanted a conventional war and never got one, it even at the end of the article goes on to say reagardless of "if" Alpharius had been killed, his way of waging war had won

Frazzled wrote:

Frazzled wrote:is that good? I don't play Dawn of War.

Also, is that a PLord or just an exarch?

Dawn of War series is not a grain of salt, it's the whole Atlantic ocean worth of salt. Relic's story writers likes to use Eldar in pretty much the same unimaginative way film writers use Soldiers. Essentially someone says they're strong and powerful, then the plot armour kicks into high gear and the brainless underdog that the film is about is the only one with foresight and the only one who has the means to do anything about a bad situation. What it all boils down to is thus; Relic is even worse than certain Black Library authors at portraying Eldar in the presence of the Space Marines.

I think the problem with the 40k Background is that the perspective is forgotten. Most stories have the Imperium or better yet the Space Marines as the heroes, yet when discussing the fluff people treat those stories as if completely unbiased canon.

A certain Primarch beats an Avatar and it's suddenly established fact that Primarchs > Avatar, while since it was entertaining fiction with the Primarch being the hero of the story the Avatar is there to portray what a great feat of strength and what level of nearly impossible challenges the Primarchs have to overcome. This establishes that the Avatar is a very, very, serious threat to the Primarch and that the Avatar is more than the better of the Primarch, but through devious cunning, luck, or simply extraordinary willpower the Avatar is still overcome. Unfortunately in this hypothetical situation we have that people forget who the underdog is or they forget what it means to be the underdog. If the Avatar had won, it wouldn't have been a huge thing, just more blood to mingle with Eldanesh' on the floor - it would have been the expected outcome and it would have destroyed the story since the hero would've been dead.

The Eldar are the side figures of this story, and many authors do not know how to properly take care of them. Eldar are the guys sitting with all the cards, but in the stories for some reason those cards are always wrong. It's just poor storytelling. Or plot armour.

(Oh, and the Phoenix Lords are demi-gods, because much like the Emperor they can not be killed permanently, are supremely powerful, and no longer have cognitive patterns along the same lines as mortals of their race - unlike the primarchs whom are still pretty much mortals. And because GW says so, if nothing else.)

Nice post Mahtamori. Unfortunately "Worfing" is pretty common in wh40k, not only towards Eldar.

As for how Eldar are portrayed in DoWs I noticed one thing. Space Marines should really stop attacking Eldar Warlocks and Seers.
SMs attack Farseer Macha - Chaos gets Maledictum
SMs kill farseer - they break the ritual against the Tyranids.
SMs kill seer council - exterminatus is unleashed.
I mean fool me once, but three times?

Macok wrote:Nice post Mahtamori. Unfortunately "Worfing" is pretty common in wh40k, not only towards Eldar.

As for how Eldar are portrayed in DoWs I noticed one thing. Space Marines should really stop attacking Eldar Warlocks and Seers.
SMs attack Farseer Macha - Chaos gets Maledictum
SMs kill farseer - they break the ritual against the Tyranids.
SMs kill seer council - exterminatus is unleashed.
I mean fool me once, but three times?

Well, it's not like Astartes have a lot of reasons to trust the Eldar, do they? Perhaps the Eldar got off their high horse and actually told them why they were doing it the Astartes might not attack them.

It's not as if the Imperium is so receptive to anyone trying to explain anything to them. Why bother explaining everything when they already know what the answer will be?

The Astartes will attack them regardless of what the Eldar have to say. The Astartes have been doing just that since before the Heresy. Remember the Great Crusade? The Imperium is and always has been afraid of Xenos. That's why they call them Xenos!

Eldar know better than to cast the pearls before the swine. The swine will not realize their value and trample them underfoot.

Better to just take action. Actions are worth a thousand words. No need to explain yourself to a human when they are ignorant anyway and refuse to listen to reason.

With the accumulated combat prowess and wisdom of countless exarchs, the ability to not only reverse their own death, but thereby accrue even more deadliness, I'd say that Phoenix Lords are second only to the C'tan in terms of powerful beings. By comparison, Primarchs possessed the minds of children.
I mean the Primarchs are dead/can die... That in itself makes them pretty inferior in my book.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:It's not as if the Imperium is so receptive to anyone trying to explain anything to them. Why bother explaining everything when they already know what the answer will be?

The Astartes will attack them regardless of what the Eldar have to say. The Astartes have been doing just that since before the Heresy. Remember the Great Crusade? The Imperium is and always has been afraid of Xenos. That's why they call them Xenos!

Eldar know better than to cast the pearls before the swine. The swine will not realize their value and trample them underfoot.

Better to just take action. Actions are worth a thousand words. No need to explain yourself to a human when they are ignorant anyway and refuse to listen to reason.

Then don't complain when Astartes open fire on sight.

Archonate wrote:With the accumulated combat prowess and wisdom of countless exarchs, the ability to not only reverse their own death, but thereby accrue even more deadliness, I'd say that Phoenix Lords are second only to the C'tan in terms of powerful beings. By comparison, Primarchs possessed the minds of children.
I mean the Primarchs are dead/can die... That in itself makes them pretty inferior in my book.

If so powerful, why flee Slaanesh? If so powerful, why not confront yourselves like the Harlequins do instead of following the Paths? If so powerful, why not slay the Emperor before He could put His plans into motion? Or, for that matter, break into the Imperial Palace and slay the Emperor and end the Human threat once and for all? After all, if the Phoenix Lords are as powerful as you claim, then the Emperor should be no trouble, since He was incapacitated by a 'mere' Primarch - His own son.

Tadashi wrote:If so powerful, why flee Slaanesh? If so powerful, why not confront yourselves like the Harlequins do instead of following the Paths? If so powerful, why not slay the Emperor before He could put His plans into motion? Or, for that matter, break into the Imperial Palace and slay the Emperor and end the Human threat once and for all? After all, if the Phoenix Lords are as powerful as you claim, then the Emperor should be no trouble, since He was incapacitated by a 'mere' Primarch - His own son.

Firstly, the Harlequins do not directly confront Slaanesh. They hide in the Webway and play around, sometimes coming out to fight in certain battles. Much like the Laughing God who did not confront Slaanesh but escaped into the webway by tricking his way out.

Also, the Eldar do not want to kill the Imperium because they are effectly a giant meatshield between them and alot of stuff out there in the galaxy. As you said yourself in the other, thread, Chaos considers mankind more of a threat than the Eldar. If the Imperium dies, then so does the eldar. Orks will become much more powerful, as will Nids and Chaos. Eldar wouldn't stand a chance, so keeping the Emperor alive is more in their favour thank killing him.

And I doubt a primarch, say even a Demon primarch, could break into the imperial palace and kill the Emperor all by himself. Heck, the traitor legions all combined couldn't even do that.

Lord Rogukiel wrote:

Tadashi wrote:If so powerful, why flee Slaanesh? If so powerful, why not confront yourselves like the Harlequins do instead of following the Paths? If so powerful, why not slay the Emperor before He could put His plans into motion? Or, for that matter, break into the Imperial Palace and slay the Emperor and end the Human threat once and for all? After all, if the Phoenix Lords are as powerful as you claim, then the Emperor should be no trouble, since He was incapacitated by a 'mere' Primarch - His own son.

Firstly, the Harlequins do not directly confront Slaanesh. They hide in the Webway and play around, sometimes coming out to fight in certain battles. Much like the Laughing God who did not confront Slaanesh but escaped into the webway by tricking his way out.[/ quote]

I meant confront yourself instead of running through the Paths, or indulging yourself like the Dark Eldar. In doing so the Eldar become less than themselves.

Also, the Eldar do not want to kill the Imperium because they are effectly a giant meatshield between them and alot of stuff out there in the galaxy. As you said yourself in the other, thread, Chaos considers mankind more of a threat than the Eldar. If the Imperium dies, then so does the eldar. Orks will become much more powerful, as will Nids and Chaos. Eldar wouldn't stand a chance, so keeping the Emperor alive is more in their favour thank killing him.


And I doubt a primarch, say even a Demon primarch, could break into the imperial palace and kill the Emperor all by himself. Heck, the traitor legions all combined couldn't even do that.

Lord Rogukiel your assumption about how Eldar would die if humanity were to all be killed off is just speculation. Some Eldar craftworlds are trying to do just that. They kill every human they see.

The reason they don't bother with the Emperor is because they know the Emperor isn't the real Emperor. The real one is in Trazyn's collection. They also know the Emperor holds no real power in the Imperium. Instead it's the 12 High Lords of Terra that do.

If you think the Eldar so weak, watch what happens to an Imperial citizen when they steal away Eldar spirit stones. Even High Lords of Terra aren't stupid enough to do that kind of thing. The last Imperial that did was gathered up by Eldar, Handed over to the Harlequins, and they handed him over to the Dark Eldar for re education on what not to do to the Eldar.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
The reason they don't bother with the Emperor is because they know the Emperor isn't the real Emperor. The real one is in Trazyn's collection. They also know the Emperor holds no real power in the Imperium. Instead it's the 12 High Lords of Terra that do.

The Emperor's not the only one who wore baroque power armor. A few Primarchs are missing and are far more likely to be the one in Trazyn's collection. A man who defeated and imprisoned a C'tan by himself is too powerful for Trazyn to handle.