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"Dungeons & Dragons, Descent, Heroes Quest and Warhammer 40K (but with a single squad)"

I actually like the idea of multiplayer asynchronous dungeon crawls.
They seem to have thrown TTGs and 40k around to snag the interest of that audience, but this really has nothing to do with recreating army or even skirmish based games digitally.
Pox-nora sort of did the mini/ccg thing already, although they had inter player trading options and you could avoid the "random buy" stuff entirely.

This could be quite cool, I just think they are going to confuse and therefore annoy some people wth the angle their pitch is taking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AlexHolker wrote:

With over 100 Minis at launch, you will have a hard time deciding which one to take into battle.

Right now the plan is that each copy of Minis with Enemies will come with a set of 4 minis (these numbers are still being finalized with your help!). These 4 minis will be selected randomly from a pool of 20 common minis.

-_-

The least they could do is let the owner choose which 4 units they start with. The comparison was made to CCGs like Magic before, but at least there if you decide you like, say, Vampires, you can just go and buy a Vampire theme deck instead of getting stuck with two Goblins, an Elf and some sort of Ooze. Being given the choice to either fork over more money or playing with units you don't like to maybe get some units you actually like is such an unappealing idea that their failure to cotton on to that fact should render the whole project suspect.

It's not units though, as far as I can tell. You'd get Steve the Ranger, Mary-Sue the sensual barbarian, Philip the black-market dentist, and Axeface the Goblin...I think?
At the very least theme packs seem like a good idea, at least as a starter.

So. Frozen Synapse (or any other tactical strategy turn-based game FWIW) with customizable characters. But having to pay to customize them? I think I won't jump in, I'm sorry.

Edit: oh, random minis in the blisters, like colletible pre-painted games. No, thanks.

Cadaver wrote:
They are an established video game company, and right in the description shows some of the very well known games they've worked on. Congrats on not bothering to read the handful of paragraphs and jumping to the conclusion they're running some sort of scam.

A single game company did not make all of those games, these "guys' have made nothing.

I think they actually did it this way, as they say, to gauge interest- if the community wanted it, it'd get funded and they'd make it.

If not, they don't go through with it. It's a cheap way to either scratch an idea off the list or to have it get funded.

No real loss for them, assuming their reputation doesn't take a hit (which it shouldn't).

I think the logo is fantastic, and would've considered chipping in if they had actually worked on the game. But as a concept, I can't do so...

Worst kickstarter pitch I have seen so far. Let' s see now; they want 300k bloody dollars to start making an unoriginal project which sounds about as advanced as a 2009 flash game at best AND they will make use of microtransactions WITH random elements (to incentivise more purchases) and on top of that heaping pile of oxen manure they insist that this is somehow something revolutionary. The gall of these fething people amazes me and I would tell anyone and everyone to stay far away from this poop.

Grundz wrote:

Cadaver wrote:
They are an established video game company, and right in the description shows some of the very well known games they've worked on. Congrats on not bothering to read the handful of paragraphs and jumping to the conclusion they're running some sort of scam.

A single game company did not make all of those games, these "guys' have made nothing.

You're right these guys did not create all the games listed on their resumes as Heatwave Interactive, but they did participate in the development at some point in their career. And they do have their own games: http://heatwave.com/products.php So they've hardly created nothing.

As others have said, if they don't get funding, that's no big loss. They tested the waters and noone looses anything. However, you've said 1) they are out to make a quick buck and 2) they have no professional experience as a company, which is completely false. If you want to post valid criticism, as many others have here, please do. But making comments in direct contradiction to what can be found by simply reading their Kickstarter page and a quick look at their website does nothing but make you look foolish.

RiTides wrote:I think they actually did it this way, as they say, to gauge interest- if the community wanted it, it'd get funded and they'd make it.

If not, they don't go through with it. It's a cheap way to either scratch an idea off the list or to have it get funded.

No real loss for them, assuming their reputation doesn't take a hit (which it shouldn't).

I think the logo is fantastic, and would've considered chipping in if they had actually worked on the game. But as a concept, I can't do so...

Very true. The beauty of crowdfunding as they say

Windir83 wrote:Worst kickstarter pitch I have seen so far. Let' s see now; they want 300k bloody dollars to start making an unoriginal project which sounds about as advanced as a 2009 flash game at best AND they will make use of microtransactions WITH random elements (to incentivise more purchases) and on top of that heaping pile of oxen manure they insist that this is somehow something revolutionary. The gall of these fething people amazes me and I would tell anyone and everyone to stay far away from this poop.

It could be worse: the booster packs could be random drops that you can then pay real money to open.

Yeah, there is no way I would personally consider backing this project because:

A) It is blind purchase.
B) From what I can tell you're not playing the game with a bunch of virtual minis, you're playing with a handful (at most).
C) Their initial pitch, including their video does not cover what the actual gameplay of the game will be like.


To expand on each:


A) There are no successful miniature games on the market that use blind purchases at their core and those that have tried have all failed...and certainly none that required painting your models. So if this game is trying to virtually simulate a miniature game where you paint your own models then they are missing the boat: in the mini gaming hobby you choose which models you like either from an aesthetics or gameplay perspective and then you purchase THOSE models because you like them. Adding blind purchase into the mix means this is something I will never, ever, ever be interested in...even if the blind purchase can be made via in-game money.


B) The video uses tabeltop gaming as the example and shows many, many images of people playing 40K, Warmachine, Dust Warfare, etc, which are all games where you're using a ton of miniatures. But then if you read their descriptions the game sounds like it will use only a handful of virtual miniatures at most...in fact, the game sounds a whole lot more like a RPG than a traditional tabletop game. So what's the point of showing all these mass miniature games in the video if the actual game won't be anything like that? I just don't get it.


C) I know video game kickstarters can be tough because it can be too costly to come up with demo art assets, etc, to really show what the game will be like until the company actually raises some money, but frankly if you're going to go the route of not showing *any* art assets or gameplay examples then you better have a really, really solid explanation of exactly what gameplay will be like. But that just isn't the case here. The entire pitch basically is explaining the 'feeling' of miniature gaming without ever explaining how this feeling will actually be translated into an actual GAME. Where are the descriptions of the game? Even if alot of that can still be changed or developed, there should at least be some baseline explanations about what the game will look like and how it will actually play. There simply is no way I would ever consider backing a project like this without knowing what the freaking game will actually consist of!

Yes, the game will have collectible miniatures, yes you can paint them, yes you can trade and sell them, yes you can play asynchronously, co-op, etc, but what is the freaking game like? How can this game possibly give me the same virtual feeling as the tabeltop games I'm used to if each side is only using a handful of miniatures?

1. I feel they presented what they intend to make, a way to make money, not a fun game.

2. Of the "games" they have made, 1 is some sort of farmville facebook game, 1 is buggy and terrible, and one has something to do with samuel jackson and I phones.

Not saying they can't make a good game, but when you start with the question, "how is this going to make money?" Instead of "how can we make this fun?" I have a hard time putting any faith in the ability to produce anything enjoyable.

You will be able to buy Platinum Blister packs using real world money. Platinum Blister Packs will contain 1 random rare mini and three uncommon minis with a slight chance of getting additional rare minis.

You will be able to bypass the Blister Packs and purchase specific minis at a premium price.

That kills the idea of a good game right there.. It's pay to win. most pay to win games go down hill in terms of balance very quickly.

Considering that many new games are going free to play with no buyable power of sorts, this idea seems a bit dated.

Superscope wrote:That kills the idea of a good game right there.. It's pay to win. most pay to win games go down hill in terms of balance very quickly.

I think they said you'd be able to also purchase stuff with in-game currency that you build up after playing the game, which would be totally fine with me personally if they didn't have blind purchase involved.

Because if basically everyone started out with the same amount of virtual currency to purchase their first models and then you could purchase the other models you like as you go along also with virtual currency (but you also have the option to buy them with real money to speed things up), it could totally work because it would be like a real miniatures game where you decide which models you want to buy next to include in your army.

But they're not going that route it seems, instead they're making this more heroclix than 40K, which personally has absolutely zero appeal to me.

So I can spend a truck load of money on blisters and STILL not get my Charezard? Uber-PASS!!! Out of 100 "available" minis, 20 will be commons. That means that 80 are uncommon/rare.

I stopped playing the player unfriendly "collectable" games a long time ago. Collectable in this case is read as "prison raping you through your wallet".

I'll give it a go when it comes out, definitely. Not about to donate just yet, though.

yakface wrote:
B) The video uses tabeltop gaming as the example and shows many, many images of people playing 40K, Warmachine, Dust Warfare, etc, which are all games where you're using a ton of miniatures. But then if you read their descriptions the game sounds like it will use only a handful of virtual miniatures at most...in fact, the game sounds a whole lot more like a RPG than a traditional tabletop game. So what's the point of showing all these mass miniature games in the video if the actual game won't be anything like that? I just don't get it.

Most likely they saw the success of some of the big kickstarters with lots of minis for free that have been happening recently (zombicide, sedition wars, mantic) and decided

"Wow, people pay so much for MINIs, people love MINIs, what if we could get a slice of that pie, only we'll be cool and make MINIs 2.0 for the new digital age of social gaming instead of having to mess around with all that plastic and stuff."

"Wow, if we could sell the MINIs digitally, it'll be just like e-books, no need to buy the real-world thing when you can have digital MINIs and play against anyone anywhere in the world! Wow, this will be huge!"

It;s extremely poorly-thought out. Even the name of it "Minis with Enemies" sounds "noob" to be honest, like the kind of game title you'd expect to see from someone who doesn't have English as their first language.

There really is nothing to see here, it is just a video game idea, like the hundreds of other kickstarter video game ideas that do not get funded... developers spam them in the hopes that eventually they'll find enough people to pay them $100k to fund an easy flash game-style project that will take them 3 months to make, and then make them a ton of money on release via microtransactions after that.

scarletsquig wrote:Most likely they saw the success of some of the big kickstarters with lots of minis for free that have been happening recently (zombicide, sedition wars, mantic) and decided

"Wow, people pay so much for MINIs, people love MINIs, what if we could get a slice of that pie, only we'll be cool and make MINIs 2.0 for the new digital age of social gaming instead of having to mess around with all that plastic and stuff."

"Wow, if we could sell the MINIs digitally, it'll be just like e-books, no need to buy the real-world thing when you can have digital MINIs and play against anyone anywhere in the world! Wow, this will be huge!"

It;s extremely poorly-thought out. Even the name of it "Minis with Enemies" sounds "noob" to be honest, like the kind of game title you'd expect to see from someone who doesn't have English as their first language.

There really is nothing to see here, it is just a video game idea, like the hundreds of other kickstarter video game ideas that do not get funded... developers spam them in the hopes that eventually they'll find enough people to pay them $100k to fund an easy flash game-style project that will take them 3 months to make, and then make them a ton of money on release via microtransactions after that.

Well, the name is clearly a riff on the incredibly popular 'words with friends' game, so I wouldn't give them grief for that personally.


But the really sad part to me is that the premise of creating a faux digital miniature game online could be really cool I think.

Just imagine this:

You launch the game and for free you're given enough virtual coins to buy say 500 points of models for a 40K army (obviously it wouldn't be 40K, it would be their own unique game, but I'll use 40K as the example because we all understand it).

Now, just like real 40K you have a choice of a bunch of factions and way more model choices than you can actually fit in your 500 point army. You look through all the factions, pick one and 'buy' enough models to play your first game...and no worries if you screw up on your first selections, you can always reset your profile and start over again from scratch if you'd like.

After that you jump right into your first game or even tons of games against your friends. The games are asynchronous, so you can play a bunch of games at the same time. If you lose a game, you get a few virtual coins. If you win a game, you get even more virtual coins. After each game your ranking also goes up or down depending on whether you won or lost vs. your opponent's ranking. So if you ended up playing against a really tough opponent, even though you lost you'd get a few extra coins because of the difficulty and conversely if your ranking was way ahead of your opponents a victory would net you less coins.

You could then use these coins to buy upgrades for your models (like a plasma gun, for example) or even entirely new models...and naturally playing higher point games will net you additional coins, so you have incentive to 'earn' bigger armies.

And on top of all of that, real world money can be spent to purchase the virtual coins for people who just want to skip ahead and buy all the models and upgrades they want without earning the virtual currency.


Honestly, I think a game like that could be really, really awesome if the actual strategy game you're playing with the virtual 'models' was awesome as well. In fact, I kind of already play a game sort of like this on iOS called 'Battle Nations', but its really just like a farmville spinoff where the actual battles pretty much sucks and most of the 'earning' comes from a version of farming instead of just playing games.

Therefore I believe this is a big missed opportunity...if the actual gameplay was intriguing and the factions were well balanced and varied then I think a system where you have to purchase your army over time just like a real mini game could be very engrossing.

I really like this idea but IMO $300,000 seems a bit ambitious...
I'd buy it if they do end up making it though...

yakface wrote:

Spoiler:

Well, the name is clearly a riff on the incredibly popular 'words with friends' game, so I wouldn't give them grief for that personally.


But the really sad part to me is that the premise of creating a faux digital miniature game online could be really cool I think.

Just imagine this:

You launch the game and for free you're given enough virtual coins to buy say 500 points of models for a 40K army (obviously it wouldn't be 40K, it would be their own unique game, but I'll use 40K as the example because we all understand it).

Now, just like real 40K you have a choice of a bunch of factions and way more model choices than you can actually fit in your 500 point army. You look through all the factions, pick one and 'buy' enough models to play your first game...and no worries if you screw up on your first selections, you can always reset your profile and start over again from scratch if you'd like.

After that you jump right into your first game or even tons of games against your friends. The games are asynchronous, so you can play a bunch of games at the same time. If you lose a game, you get a few virtual coins. If you win a game, you get even more virtual coins. After each game your ranking also goes up or down depending on whether you won or lost vs. your opponent's ranking. So if you ended up playing against a really tough opponent, even though you lost you'd get a few extra coins because of the difficulty and conversely if your ranking was way ahead of your opponents a victory would net you less coins.

You could then use these coins to buy upgrades for your models (like a plasma gun, for example) or even entirely new models...and naturally playing higher point games will net you additional coins, so you have incentive to 'earn' bigger armies.

And on top of all of that, real world money can be spent to purchase the virtual coins for people who just want to skip ahead and buy all the models and upgrades they want without earning the virtual currency.


Honestly, I think a game like that could be really, really awesome if the actual strategy game you're playing with the virtual 'models' was awesome as well. In fact, I kind of already play a game sort of like this on iOS called 'Battle Nations', but its really just like a farmville spinoff where the actual battles pretty much sucks and most of the 'earning' comes from a version of farming instead of just playing games.

Therefore I believe this is a big missed opportunity...if the actual gameplay was intriguing and the factions were well balanced and varied then I think a system where you have to purchase your army over time just like a real mini game could be very engrossing.

I'd back that project.. Go find some programmers!

Might as well spend your money on magic beans, nothing will come of this. They claim to have worked on pretty much every major game for every major company, but their only products are a Samuel L Jackson soundboard app, a facebook game (with an under construction official website) and an online game that's died a death. It may or may not be a scam, but it's ringing all the alarm bells.

Cadaver wrote:
You're right these guys did not create all the games listed on their resumes as Heatwave Interactive, but they did participate in the development at some point in their career. And they do have their own games: http://heatwave.com/products.php So they've hardly created nothing.

Yeah, one of those is unreleased, one is a refurbed game someone else made, and one is isamulejackson which I'm not even going to dignify with a response.

These aren't the guys that made something pretty amazing (ex. spring http://springrts.com/ I helped with, do I claim I "made?" hell no) they pooped out one torque-cut and paste job with a transaction model and an app you can make sam jackson say things about mfking planes with.

That does not increase my confidence.

If this was like 30, 40, 50k I can see one passionate programmer putting a cool vassel-like thing together which I could play with my phone, that would be cool.
Ten times that? Is ridiculous. DOUBLE FINE ADVENTURE asked for 400,000 and they have an entire, established studio that has put out multiple awesome games. Handing out that kind of cash to what amount to pretty much nobody, without any proof of concept, is just a bad move. I mean this thing looks to me like they had an idea one afternoon, made a few videos, made a banner and started the kickstarter.

Someone on Frothers has pointed out all the silhouettes of models they use are Reaper figures, which is a bit cheeky..

Much of this is filmed at Dragon's Lair in Austin, Texas. Isn't that where the BoLS guys play?

yakface wrote:

Superscope wrote:That kills the idea of a good game right there.. It's pay to win. most pay to win games go down hill in terms of balance very quickly.

I think they said you'd be able to also purchase stuff with in-game currency that you build up after playing the game, which would be totally fine with me personally if they didn't have blind purchase involved.

If you look though, only the platinum pack ensures you don't get a bunch of commons. And of course, the platinum pack can only be purchased with money. =)

Cadaver wrote:
You're right these guys did not create all the games listed on their resumes as Heatwave Interactive, but they did participate in the development at some point in their career. And they do have their own games: http://heatwave.com/products.php So they've hardly created nothing.

I understand they claim to have worked on these projects but does that mean they were lead programers or am I looking at 2 guys who made coffee and another guy who got donuts? It is pretty easy to say I worked on something but what exactly did they do? Besides their other games look pretty crappy.

The common denominator in playing mini-based games is your interacting with a real person. face to face. Usually a freind. Drinking a beer/soda or 6, pizza, chit chat, game play...all of that human interaction.
This game plan bypasses that interaction and just drops you into the system itself.
Thats why I don't play WoW, EverCrack, or any other MMO (this game system being just another form)...ultimately your still just sitting in your underwear in your mothers basement playing with a keyboard and a screen.

I wouldn't mind the randomness as much, if the packs were, at least, targeted.
I mean, if I plan on being a DM for a group, maybe I don't want to risk getting a bunch of halflings and a half orc. Let me buy a "Goblin pack" that contains, if not ALL Goblins, at least goblinoids. Let me buy an undead pack, a drow pack, etc. This way, I can have a CHANCE to get something I need to populate my dungeon with. If I'm creating "Assault on the goblin warrens," I don't want to have to buy 500 packs in hopes of getting together 50 or 60 goblin troops.

Another interesting observation; The "miniatures" in these packs come unpainted. Will you HAVE to paint them before playing with them? If not, how soon until we see a rise of people criticizing you and refusing to play you with your gray, unpainted digi-models?

Eric

Grundz wrote:Yeah, one of those is unreleased, one is a refurbed game someone else made, and one is isamulejackson which I'm not even going to dignify with a response.

The fact is you said they created nothing. I was simply pointed out they have made games, I'm not concerned about the quality of those games in this context. If you are going to make claims about anyone that they are either a fly-by-night con artist or completely unqualified for the venture they are pursuing, have something to back that up. Otherwise you are making unfounded accusations, and I'm going to call you on that.

Just for the record, I'm not backing this project. It's not something I see myself using with any regularity. I just thought it might be of interest to members here, so I shared it.

brettz123 wrote:

Cadaver wrote:
You're right these guys did not create all the games listed on their resumes as Heatwave Interactive, but they did participate in the development at some point in their career. And they do have their own games: http://heatwave.com/products.php So they've hardly created nothing.

I understand they claim to have worked on these projects but does that mean they were lead programers or am I looking at 2 guys who made coffee and another guy who got donuts? It is pretty easy to say I worked on something but what exactly did they do? Besides their other games look pretty crappy.

Employee bios can be found here:

http://www.heatwave.com/about-castoro.php

It is a good thing to as these types of questions when considering investing in a Kickstarter. My point was this info can be found with quick search of their website.

Cadaver wrote:

brettz123 wrote:

Cadaver wrote:
You're right these guys did not create all the games listed on their resumes as Heatwave Interactive, but they did participate in the development at some point in their career. And they do have their own games: http://heatwave.com/products.php So they've hardly created nothing.

I understand they claim to have worked on these projects but does that mean they were lead programers or am I looking at 2 guys who made coffee and another guy who got donuts? It is pretty easy to say I worked on something but what exactly did they do? Besides their other games look pretty crappy.

Employee bios can be found here:

http://www.heatwave.com/about-castoro.php

It is a good thing to as these types of questions when considering investing in a Kickstarter. My point was this info can be found with quick search of their website.

These are questions they should answer without people having to look at their website. Most customers are going to make up their mind based on the video and what is on the kickstarter page. They usually do not have the inclination to root around webpages.

Hey folks. Anthony Castoro here from Heatwave. You guys were the first to raise a lot of the questions we've seen, particularly in minatures and wargaming communities. I've got lots of answers, much of which will go up on our kickstarter on Monday, but FIRST I want to make sure that it's cool for me to post here? I know I'm not part of the community by default. Let me know and I'd be happy to provide more info.

brettz123 wrote:

Cadaver wrote:

brettz123 wrote:

Cadaver wrote:
You're right these guys did not create all the games listed on their resumes as Heatwave Interactive, but they did participate in the development at some point in their career. And they do have their own games: http://heatwave.com/products.php So they've hardly created nothing.

I understand they claim to have worked on these projects but does that mean they were lead programers or am I looking at 2 guys who made coffee and another guy who got donuts? It is pretty easy to say I worked on something but what exactly did they do? Besides their other games look pretty crappy.

Employee bios can be found here:

http://www.heatwave.com/about-castoro.php

It is a good thing to as these types of questions when considering investing in a Kickstarter. My point was this info can be found with quick search of their website.

These are questions they should answer without people having to look at their website. Most customers are going to make up their mind based on the video and what is on the kickstarter page. They usually do not have the inclination to root around webpages.

They do have their qualifications and the companies they worked for on the Kickstarter page. You wanted to know specifically what they did at each of those companies and their website lists that. Most Kickstarters I don't believe have the entire resume of the individuals listed there. All that said, if you aren't comfortable with their Kickstarter page providing enough information to make you confident in donating, then don't donate. It is on them to sell the idea to backers.

All I'm saying is their professional experience is provided, and for those who require a deeper understanding of that experience two clicks on their website will get you there. I'm calling out people who jump to calling them fakes, scammers and say they're actual game developers without a shred of proof to back up those claims. In fact, they are easily disproven with the slightest amount of research. Maybe I'm just less skeptical that most, but it seems a large number of people jump to the assumption Kickstarters are scams. If you don't like it don't donate, we don't need to call the guys thieves or con men in the process.