Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

SunSword wrote:FIRST I want to make sure that it's cool for me to post here? I know I'm not part of the community by default. Let me know and I'd be happy to provide more info.

Yeah, it's cool. There are more than a few game developers who post here about their products, so there's no reason to object to one more.

SunSword wrote:Hey folks. Anthony Castoro here from Heatwave. You guys were the first to raise a lot of the questions we've seen, particularly in minatures and wargaming communities. I've got lots of answers, much of which will go up on our kickstarter on Monday, but FIRST I want to make sure that it's cool for me to post here? I know I'm not part of the community by default. Let me know and I'd be happy to provide more info.

You joined, dude... You're part of the community, now! LOL

PLEASE, post here. Many of us would love to see/hear what you've got to say. As for myself, you've got a CHANCE to sway me into a market that typically holds NO interest for me; video games. So, do a good job. LOL

Eric

Cadaver wrote:
They do have their qualifications and the companies they worked for on the Kickstarter page. You wanted to know specifically what they did at each of those companies and their website lists that. Most Kickstarters I don't believe have the entire resume of the individuals listed there. All that said, if you aren't comfortable with their Kickstarter page providing enough information to make you confident in donating, then don't donate. It is on them to sell the idea to backers.

My point is if you are a person without a known name / reputation it is foolish to not be VERY up front about what you have done. My guess is I am not the only one who is put off not only by the idea but also the feeling of "who?". Most kickstarters that are successful in the gaming section either have people who are well known (OGRE, zombiecide, battle for alabaster, wasteland 2, etc... etc...) or have some kind of already put together project for you to look at and judge the merits of the project on. So it really would help to say what they have done in the past and how they fit into it.

Cadaver wrote:
All I'm saying is their professional experience is provided, and for those who require a deeper understanding of that experience two clicks on their website will get you there. I'm calling out people who jump to calling them fakes, scammers and say they're actual game developers without a shred of proof to back up those claims. In fact, they are easily disproven with the slightest amount of research. Maybe I'm just less skeptical that most, but it seems a large number of people jump to the assumption Kickstarters are scams. If you don't like it don't donate, we don't need to call the guys thieves or con men in the process.

Most people will want a little more info about these people and they should have understood that before posting their kickstarter. But your point is well taken. There is no reason to suggest these people are scamming anyone (and I in no way suggested they were). My point was solely that they need to show up front that they have the experience to make this a reality.

AlexHolker wrote:

SunSword wrote:FIRST I want to make sure that it's cool for me to post here? I know I'm not part of the community by default. Let me know and I'd be happy to provide more info.

Yeah, it's cool. There are more than a few game developers who post here about their products, so there's no reason to object to one more.

Great, thanks.

So, I suppose there are three big topics. I'll do short-answers first and then long answers so you can stop reading before it's TLDR.

Short Answers:
A) Who is Heatwave and is this a scam?
Heatwave has been around since 2007. We are backed by a well established VC firm and staffed by game industry professionals. No, this is not a scam.

B) WTF is this game really all about? (followed by a variety of opinions, ideas, suggestions and derision)
The team had an idea to make a digital game based on MINIs, in some ways inspired by Words with Friends and Drawsomething. Specifically, the Lead Designer wanted to create a cross platform toolset for playing round-robin tactical combat that didn't require everyone to be logged on or in the same place, at the same time. A hi-res version of play-by-email. It's an original game, and they're currently designing a High Fantasy setting for the first release.

C) $300k? Couldn't this be done for 5 nickles and a case of mountain dew?
Yes. No.

Stop reading now if that's all you need to know.
===================================
Long answers:
A) Who is Heatwave and is this a scam
The core team has a ton of experience making games, all of the ones listed on the site are projects where the member was a significant contributor (whether Designer, Producer, Programmer, etc...). A google, linkedin or mobygames search will give you plenty of info on that. I co-founded the company in 2007 on the concept of building large online games that were funded through private equity and other forms of investment, rather than through the classic Publisher/Developer relationship, which in my experience has often been destructive. I've been the Publisher and I've been the Developer, and I've never liked it. For the first year, we bootstrapped the company doing consulting work for MTV and Icarus Studios, but we quickly realized that we were so busy working for other people, we couldn't make any progress on our own projects. So my partner and I went out and raised Venture Capital to the tune of $7.5M. The purpose of that money was to build the studio's core talent and seed a basket of projects to raise a more significant round of capital (more like $75-100 million) to finance the games. Unfortunately, this all happened in 2008 and private equity evaporated along with most other liquid forms of capital for risky ventures like mine.

So, we took what resources we had and have fought through the past 4 years of recession and massive upheaval in the game industry (social games) and managed to stay alive. Along the way, we've gotten to work with some pretty cool talent and celebrity which we'll continue to bring to our projects. We bought Gods & Heroes out of effective bankruptcy and despite exceptionally difficult circumstances managed to launch it about this time last year. It failed. That's the risky part I mentioned earlier. I could get into the why's, but you guys probably don't care that much. Suffice to say it was exceptionally painful and even though we're still looking for a way to improve it, we've had to move on.

In fall of last year, we launched a new division of the company doing work-for-hire, called Ignite. Ignite is doing pretty well for us, we have several clients who keep giving us business and we're getting to work on MMOs, kids games, government portals, and mobile applications.

So a month ago the management team came to me and said they really wanted to hold an internal competition to see who had the best idea for a kickstarter project, something everyone could be excited about and that someone else wasn't already doing. We had lots of great pitches, but MINIs with Enemies won out. So here we are. We've got a lot of Unity expertise and we've built a great backend toolset for running cross-platform games.

B) Is this a good idea or not (and in some cases, WTF is this game idea really?)
Well, obviously we think it's a cool idea, but we're not doign the best job of communicating it, so we're working to improve it. A few topics:

1) Collectable? There's been a lot of feedback on this particular topic. Essentially, we have to monetize by either charging for it all up front, or having a low barrier to entry with an up-sell. Honestly, I don't care either way, and I think the team is open to either. With regards to randomness, we all agree that you should be able to specifically purchase any asset that you want. The "blister" pack concept is a way of purchasing a set of things without having to get specific if you don't want to.

2) Wargame or tactical game? The first release of this game will be a tactical game. The technology we're building can absolutely be modified to support larger scales, but that's not the initial thrust of the game. Personally, I like bigger armies, but it's not my idea, so I'll have to wait .

3) Why is digital even a good idea? I think there are a lot of us who struggle to get the time to play physical games together because of where we are in life. It would be awesome if I could have 6 games of MwE going on my phone or iPad all the time and I just take a turn when I have a minute. Not trying to replace real tabletop gaming.

C) $300k? Couldn't this be done for 5 nickles and a case of mountain dew?
$300k on kickstarter turns into $275k almost instantly. $275k turns into $225k when the taxman comes around. $225k turns into $200k pretty quickly after you factor the cost the rewards plus the pro video and miscellaneous. Keep in mind, this is a hi-res game for PC, so we're doing MINI models whose base hi-res models have oh, say 6,000,000 polys. Obviously that all gets crunched down to something in the thousands at real time, but this is all hi-end work. But just one mini could easily cost $1,000 to sculpt, pose and texture. So the art budget is significant, plus you've got a few programmers (client, backend, game logic), designers, producer, testers, etc...

Sure, one guy in the closet could make a turn-based prototype pretty quickly. But to make something with professional quality, that supports transactions, hi-end art, and is client-server... it's just not as cheap as you might think. I suppose we could have asked for less and hoped to reach the $300k mark, but honestly, we should raise $300k if we’re going to do the project. So that’s what we’re asking for.

I hope I’ve answered a lot of your questions. I’m sure I missed some. Interested to hear your feedback.

Regards,

Anthony

SunSword wrote:C) $300k? Couldn't this be done for 5 nickles and a case of mountain dew?
Yes. No.

Sorry to say, I find your lack of faith in Mountain Dew disturbing...


Any plans for a Mac version (not hippy iPads, but real Macs)?

Oh man, I think we've seen the first kickstarter troll.

300k. I laughed so hard I had to be taken to the hospital for oxygen treatment and potential brain damage.

Necros wrote:

SunSword wrote:C) $300k? Couldn't this be done for 5 nickles and a case of mountain dew?
Yes. No.

Sorry to say, I find your lack of faith in Mountain Dew disturbing...


Any plans for a Mac version (not hippy iPads, but real Macs)?

Yep, we're using Unity which supports the Mac!

My problem is, if it is indeed easy to whip up a prototype, why didn't you do so to pitch this? Right now, it's just a logo and text.

Perhaps there's still time for you to do so? People don't need to see high res to grasp the concept, but text and a logo just can't convey this concept.

Thanks for posting here, by the way! If nothing else, you certainly have folks' attention

Such a confused message and poor choice of words - I mean the rewards talk about Platinum Boxed Mini Pack... Boxed? Pack? It's a selection of pixels that I have to colour in!

A Tabletop miniatures game without the tabletop or the miniatures, and no word on how the game will look or how the miniatures will look - i'm not going to pay for them to use my creativity because they've not bothered to fully think through the idea!

Pass.

How much of the $7.5 million went on the Samuel L Jackson soundboard?

SunSword wrote:With regards to randomness, we all agree that you should be able to specifically purchase any asset that you want.

Does this mean you'll let people choose which 4 units they get to start with, of the 20 commons?

RiTides wrote:My problem is, if it is indeed easy to whip up a prototype, why didn't you do so to pitch this? Right now, it's just a logo and text.

Perhaps there's still time for you to do so? People don't need to see high res to grasp the concept, but text and a logo just can't convey this concept.

Thanks for posting here, by the way! If nothing else, you certainly have folks' attention

We're actually going to be posting some material next week that is more representative of what the game will look like.

We didn't do a prototype for the launch because we didn't feel it would be visually compelling and could have turned people off. Admittedly, that may have been a mistake, but that's the reasoning we did it the way we did.

You guys are the core group of people who would "get it," so I consider it time well spent!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AlexHolker wrote:

SunSword wrote:With regards to randomness, we all agree that you should be able to specifically purchase any asset that you want.

Does this mean you'll let people choose which 4 units they get to start with, of the 20 commons?

I don't see why not, the whole point of having the discussion is to figure out what people want.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

WarMill wrote:How much of the $7.5 million went on the Samuel L Jackson soundboard?

Not something I would normally disclose, but my curiosity is piqued. Why do you ask?

Black Nexus wrote:Such a confused message and poor choice of words - I mean the rewards talk about Platinum Boxed Mini Pack... Boxed? Pack? It's a selection of pixels that I have to colour in!

A Tabletop miniatures game without the tabletop or the miniatures, and no word on how the game will look or how the miniatures will look - i'm not going to pay for them to use my creativity because they've not bothered to fully think through the idea!

Pass.

On one hand this game reminds me of Exillis, which thankfully failed....

On the other hand this reminds me of Vassal, which is free and fairly well established....

While you have a video and a logo you come to the table with little else but.... "Hey were people who have worked with stuff before give us your money so that we can make this thing that one of us came up with that apparently no one wants..." You really need to do soemthing to convince me that its something I want to be involved with. Until you do that I'll go throw my money at the likes of Sedition Wars and Mantic.

Any thought of licensing the IP of an established miniatures game? Not saying Warhammer, but there are a number of games out there now with established fanbases.

SunSword wrote:So a month ago the management team came to me and said they really wanted to hold an internal competition to see who had the best idea for a kickstarter project, something everyone could be excited about and that someone else wasn't already doing. We had lots of great pitches, but MINIs with Enemies won out. So here we are. We've got a lot of Unity expertise and we've built a great backend toolset for running cross-platform games.

sorry to rehash this from earlier in the topic, but are you REALLY sure you want to go with a name like that? I mean, it suddenly makes a world of sense to me, for an internal pitch. For a product title (and with kickstarter taking off the way it has, you'll have to treat your pitch as such in many ways), are you really sure it's a good idea?

Hey Anthony,

Welcome to Dakka.

First off I would like to thank you for making an effort to not only answer questions, but to be truthful with them. It was when you mentioned the need to successfully monetize a project I figured we weren't going to see much wriggling from you, and that's appreciated.

I'd like to address a few things.

1) I can't imagine that the idea behind Kickstarter is for a company with venture and investment capital to get in and get some of that free money thats out there. Being told by management to pitch an idea that could probably be profitable over KS seems to fly in the face of a funding medium set up to help people without corporate backing get an idea for a project (not a business.. thats explicitly against KS rules) off the ground.

2) I'm glad you have decided to be more clear in the direction of your game. A lot of people who donate seeing all the 40k images would be pretty dissapointed to find out they arent getting a program like Vassal with free community updates supporting their game of choice, but a hero-clix-esque random character system with it's only immediate programming being set for a High Fantasy campaign. I'm not saying you were being intentionally misleading, but you were misleading in my opinion.

3) Rather than the blister pack option, which I absolutely despise, perhaps you could model yourself a little more in the realm of League of Legends? They offer a rotation of free weekly characters and special discount on characters each week. People will play with a freebie and if they like them, they will purchase their favorites. It's stupid how much money I spent on that free to play game over the years.. =(

4) Your game system. Are all the mini's blank slates in terms of abilities or does Mike the Minotaur always have 10 STR, 8 TGH, and 2 INT? If the latter is the truth, the program isn't really useful in terms of running a pen and paper RPG with pals unless you have all sorts of ancilleries that could support it. That's fine if the game is its own animal, but again, your being misleading by hinting people can run their own game campains using your online tabletop. .. (Because it really isnt an online table-top open for gaming, it's your own IP game on which your game can be played.)

5) This isn't so much to Anthony, but everyone else. Stop comparing this to a tabletop miniatures game played on the internet, as I think that's going to wind up being pretty innacurate. Whether intentionally or not, that does seem how it was advertised for a second there. Think of it more as Neopets or Dota turned into a turn by turn strategy game, if I understand Anthonys vision, which is admittedly a little bit blurry.

dkellyj wrote:The common denominator in playing mini-based games is your interacting with a real person. face to face. Usually a freind. Drinking a beer/soda or 6, pizza, chit chat, game play...all of that human interaction.

And minis. And for some people, paint.

Also I read this which I agree with http://blog.coolminiornot.com/entry.php?1398

ThomasPolder wrote:

SunSword wrote:So a month ago the management team came to me and said they really wanted to hold an internal competition to see who had the best idea for a kickstarter project, something everyone could be excited about and that someone else wasn't already doing. We had lots of great pitches, but MINIs with Enemies won out. So here we are. We've got a lot of Unity expertise and we've built a great backend toolset for running cross-platform games.

sorry to rehash this from earlier in the topic, but are you REALLY sure you want to go with a name like that? I mean, it suddenly makes a world of sense to me, for an internal pitch. For a product title (and with kickstarter taking off the way it has, you'll have to treat your pitch as such in many ways), are you really sure it's a good idea?

Too cute?

Hey dude, I'm one of the people griping on the previous pages.

First, glad to see you stepping up.

Second: I Just want to point you at this expired kickstarter: http://www.indiegogo.com/darkpotential

Now he didnt make nearly as much as you are looking for, and had some cool physical stuff, and has some clout in wargaming, but bear with me.

Just watch the video,
We dont need a pro video, this is just one dude who we sort of know, rambling on about his plans with some long screens of some artwork.

Thats it, we don't need pro-video with fancy starwipes and great resolution, we want a better idea of what you are selling here. As you can see from many of the comments, it's a little confusing. Even someone minimally involved could make up a powerpoint that could plug all this stuff together.

I've done 3d modeling/dev, not with modern tools mind you, this was back when you had to do individual vertex animations and try to make things not look like jelly men, and even then I'd be hard pressed to put $1000 worth of work into something. Nobody wants poser models chunked down to usable size for seemingly no reason, thats just a waste of effort and money.

Places that I've worked with, in their SDLC, Do some sort of pre-production, then the pitch, and man its hard to put money on the table when you have no idea what you're buying.

Thunderfrog wrote:Hey Anthony,

Welcome to Dakka.

First off I would like to thank you for making an effort to not only answer questions, but to be truthful with them. It was when you mentioned the need to successfully monetize a project I figured we weren't going to see much wriggling from you, and that's appreciated.

You bet. That's how I operate. I'm going to respond to most of your points because they are generally well constructed, but to keep the conversation civil, I'm going to ignore some of the more obvious insults and intentional backhanded compliments.

I'd like to address a few things.

1) I can't imagine that the idea behind Kickstarter is for a company with venture and investment capital to get in and get some of that free money thats out there.

There's nothing wrong with your imagination, Kickstarter is about funding projects, which is what we're doing. My point in talking about the history of the company was to alleviate people's fears that this was a fly-by-night operation, a scam, or being done by amateurs. Being VC backed in no way means we have an endless supply of operating capital, or even a substantial surplus. The project is going to cost far more than $300k to launch, but without substantial interest shown by an audience on a site like Kickstarter, it would be foolish for us to build it. Your concern about KS is invalid, otherwise companies like Double Fine wouldn't be able to get their projects funded. Kickstarter is a way of mating creative projects with interested patronage. For more info see: http://www.kickstarter.com/start and http://www.kickstarter.com/help/guidelines.

Being told by management to pitch an idea that could probably be profitable over KS seems to fly in the face of a funding medium set up to help people without corporate backing get an idea for a project (not a business.. thats explicitly against KS rules) off the ground.

You must've mis-understood what I wrote in my original post. The team came to me and asked me to allow them to pitch for kickstarter, not the other way around. Kickstarter is for projects, yes, but it doesn't not prevent companies from pitching them (see above links for more information).

2) I'm glad you have decided to be more clear in the direction of your game. A lot of people who donate seeing all the 40k images would be pretty dissapointed to find out they arent getting a program like Vassal with free community updates supporting their game of choice, but a hero-clix-esque random character system with it's only immediate programming being set for a High Fantasy campaign. I'm not saying you were being intentionally misleading, but you were misleading in my opinion.

I think we were pretty explicit about the for-pay aspect of the game in the original pitch, so your innuendo that we might have fooled people into backing a game that would have free community updates is unnecessary. Unfortunately, our filmmaker was only available for a short period of time before he went out of town, and Dragon's Lair was hosting one of it's MINIs gaming nights during that period. Unshockingly, most people were playing 40k and that's a lot of what he filmed. We should've done a better job of clarifying the launch genre.

3) Rather than the blister pack option, which I absolutely despise, perhaps you could model yourself a little more in the realm of League of Legends? They offer a rotation of free weekly characters and special discount on characters each week. People will play with a freebie and if they like them, they will purchase their favorites. It's stupid how much money I spent on that free to play game over the years.. =(

Great suggestion!

4) Your game system. Are all the mini's blank slates in terms of abilities or does Mike the Minotaur always have 10 STR, 8 TGH, and 2 INT? If the latter is the truth, the program isn't really useful in terms of running a pen and paper RPG with pals unless you have all sorts of ancilleries that could support it. That's fine if the game is its own animal, but again, your being misleading by hinting people can run their own game campains using your online tabletop. .. (Because it really isnt an online table-top open for gaming, it's your own IP game on which your game can be played.)

There's actually a new video update that answers this question (and some of the others) here: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/heatwave/minis-with-enemies-taking-tabletop-mini-gaming-dig-0/posts

The short answer is that it is a MINI-style game, not an RPG. So the MINIs have fixed character sheets. People can build their own dungeons/scenarios/campaigns, but it isn't an RPG system. In other words, a GM can make rooms, populate them with enemy MINIs, traps and objectives and then have other players play through. There's been some discussion of allowing other kinds of events like dialogue, but I think the team is currently steering away from a story-telling RPG feel. I don't think we ever suggested that people could use it to play other games.

5) This isn't so much to Anthony, but everyone else. Stop comparing this to a tabletop miniatures game played on the internet, as I think that's going to wind up being pretty innacurate. Whether intentionally or not, that does seem how it was advertised for a second there. Think of it more as Neopets or Dota turned into a turn by turn strategy game, if I understand Anthonys vision, which is admittedly a little bit blurry.

Neopets. Nice.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grundz wrote:Hey dude, I'm one of the people griping on the previous pages.

First, glad to see you stepping up.

Second: I Just want to point you at this expired kickstarter: http://www.indiegogo.com/darkpotential

Now he didnt make nearly as much as you are looking for, and had some cool physical stuff, and has some clout in wargaming, but bear with me.

Just watch the video,
We dont need a pro video, this is just one dude who we sort of know, rambling on about his plans with some long screens of some artwork.

Thats it, we don't need pro-video with fancy starwipes and great resolution, we want a better idea of what you are selling here. As you can see from many of the comments, it's a little confusing. Even someone minimally involved could make up a powerpoint that could plug all this stuff together.

I've done 3d modeling/dev, not with modern tools mind you, this was back when you had to do individual vertex animations and try to make things not look like jelly men, and even then I'd be hard pressed to put $1000 worth of work into something. Nobody wants poser models chunked down to usable size for seemingly no reason, thats just a waste of effort and money.

Places that I've worked with, in their SDLC, Do some sort of pre-production, then the pitch, and man its hard to put money on the table when you have no idea what you're buying.

I hear you. That's a great link, I hadn't seen that one. We'll do a better job of communicating the idea next week. The guys just posted a new quick video with a bit more info http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/heatwave/minis-with-enemies-taking-tabletop-mini-gaming-dig-0/posts. If you're still interested enough to give it a look next week when we start posting artwork and some prototypes, great. If not, it's all on us. I appreciate the input for sure.

SunSword wrote:

Thunderfrog wrote:Hey Anthony,

Welcome to Dakka.

First off I would like to thank you for making an effort to not only answer questions, but to be truthful with them. It was when you mentioned the need to successfully monetize a project I figured we weren't going to see much wriggling from you, and that's appreciated.

You bet. That's how I operate. I'm going to respond to most of your points because they are generally well constructed, but to keep the conversation civil, I'm going to ignore some of the more obvious insults and intentional backhanded compliments.

Anthony,

Thanks for taking the time to post! And yeah, I agree the best policy is always to address those who take the time to give criticism constructively and simply ignore those who do not.

Your 2nd video helps a GREAT DEAL towards actually letting us know what the game itself actually will be a bit like, and I almost think you should consider re-editing the original piece to get some of this information in there. The reason I say this is because the original video spends much of the time talking about the look, feel and positive nature of tabletop miniature games and shows dozens of images of people playing traditional tabletop miniature games like 40K, warmachine, DUST Warfare, etc, however unfortunately your game does not sound to emulate those types of experiences at all...it sounds more like a digital version of the Descent Boardgame, but with collectible virtual miniatures.

There's nothing wrong with putting out a digital version of Descent with collectible virtual miniatures, but that is not the product your original video seems to indicate you will be producing. That sort of incongruity between the original message and the follow-up video will most certainly lead to the more pessimistic amongst us to thinking that perhaps some sort of bait-and-switch attempt is being made, which can never be good for a kickstarter campaign that relies heavily upon the implicit trust of potential backers.

In fact, I'd personally guess that if you guys hope to have any chance of meeting your goal you would need to pull your original video immediately and get a new video up that very, very clearly explains what the game will actually look and play like...but that's just my take, of course!

----

When it comes to me pledging or not, sadly the revelation about what type of game it will be definitely means it is something I would not back, simply because its not a style of game that's in my wheelhouse of interest.

However, were I actually interested in that style of game, I still would be incredibly hesitant about pledging without seeing any visual representation of what the game will look like and/or a very clear indication of how the game would actually play. That's really just the nature of video game kickstarters (or any kickstarter in general). Without any art assets or gaemplay examples, there's no way I would consider backing the project even if I was in love with the concept just because even the best concept can end up being poorly implemented.

So while I won't personally be backing you, I do wish you guys the best in producing a great game. And if you ever do want to make a game in a similar genre that someone like me would be interested in, it would be something like this:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/455396.page#4404000


Anyway, thanks again for taking the time to post here, and best of luck!

Hey Anthony,

Thanks for hitting all my points from my previous post. Adding this to your video I feel like it's a pretty cool concept altogether, where originally I didn't think it was worth looking into.

I think your model could work after all, although I'm just a guy on the internet. I'm waffling at the 75$ contribution level. I can imagine it would be pretty neat to be able to have my tablet buzz me to take a turn at whackin monsters with spells or swords instead of trying to squeeze the word jorgmunifter into a triple letter space. The fact the updates roll to all my devices is pretty neat too.

So.. a few more questions!

1) Are there going to be different graphical standards across platforms? I can imagine a game dumbed down enough for my Droid or iphone is probably going to look pretty dated on my super pc. Vice versa, and the weaker hardware cannot handle it.

2) This won't apply to me if I donate at the 75 bucks range, but will others coming in later have to buy MwE for every platform they own? Or is getting it once enough?

3) ( A wild question appears!)

What is the estimated price of this game? If it's got all the features Im seeing for around 15$ (The lowest pledge to get the system on all platforms) then this is actually a good deal.

I realize that your revenue will come mostly from micro purchases, but honestly people who can stick to the f2p format seem to be getting a good deal of content for their money at 15 dollars.

4) Will there be a single-player mode?

SunSword wrote: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/heatwave/minis-with-enemies-taking-tabletop-mini-gaming-dig-0/posts

Wow... that's actually a very informative video. And I like the sound of it. The downside is that I have a windows phone which I'm pretty sure wouldn't be one of the devices supported.

I agree with perhaps editing that information into the original video or the like. But mobile, turn-based, words with friends with miniatures would be... pretty great, imo.

Not sure why that was so hard to convey to start but live and learn!

I hope you guys may decide to do something with it even if you don't reach the (rather ambitious) kickstarter goal. Someone linked to Dark Potential's indiegogo above, but I actually found that to be the exception, rather than the rule, in that they did not have ENOUGH initial content to really generate as much funding as they could have. They did, however, have a very recognizable name to tabletop wargamers, which carried them pretty far (and they put out more content as they went along with the campaign... but surprisingly, started with just a few pieces of artwork, and could have gotten a lot more if they'd been better prepared, imo).

I am also curious if you are the bearded or sans-bearded speaker not that you have to reveal that, of course (and perhaps you're neither).

Anyway, greatly appreciate your clarifying, and I would actually be very likely to purchase a game like what your second video describes, if it were available for one of my devices (perhaps even PC, although since it's turn-based, I wouldn't really be able to make use of it in a word with friends fashion).

yakface wrote:

SunSword wrote:

Thunderfrog wrote:Hey Anthony,

Welcome to Dakka.

First off I would like to thank you for making an effort to not only answer questions, but to be truthful with them. It was when you mentioned the need to successfully monetize a project I figured we weren't going to see much wriggling from you, and that's appreciated.

You bet. That's how I operate. I'm going to respond to most of your points because they are generally well constructed, but to keep the conversation civil, I'm going to ignore some of the more obvious insults and intentional backhanded compliments.

Anthony,

Thanks for taking the time to post! And yeah, I agree the best policy is always to address those who take the time to give criticism constructively and simply ignore those who do not.

Your 2nd video helps a GREAT DEAL towards actually letting us know what the game itself actually will be a bit like, and I almost think you should consider re-editing the original piece to get some of this information in there. The reason I say this is because the original video spends much of the time talking about the look, feel and positive nature of tabletop miniature games and shows dozens of images of people playing traditional tabletop miniature games like 40K, warmachine, DUST Warfare, etc, however unfortunately your game does not sound to emulate those types of experiences at all...it sounds more like a digital version of the Descent Boardgame, but with collectible virtual miniatures.

There's nothing wrong with putting out a digital version of Descent with collectible virtual miniatures, but that is not the product your original video seems to indicate you will be producing. That sort of incongruity between the original message and the follow-up video will most certainly lead to the more pessimistic amongst us to thinking that perhaps some sort of bait-and-switch attempt is being made, which can never be good for a kickstarter campaign that relies heavily upon the implicit trust of potential backers.

In fact, I'd personally guess that if you guys hope to have any chance of meeting your goal you would need to pull your original video immediately and get a new video up that very, very clearly explains what the game will actually look and play like...but that's just my take, of course!

----

When it comes to me pledging or not, sadly the revelation about what type of game it will be definitely means it is something I would not back, simply because its not a style of game that's in my wheelhouse of interest.

However, were I actually interested in that style of game, I still would be incredibly hesitant about pledging without seeing any visual representation of what the game will look like and/or a very clear indication of how the game would actually play. That's really just the nature of video game kickstarters (or any kickstarter in general). Without any art assets or gaemplay examples, there's no way I would consider backing the project even if I was in love with the concept just because even the best concept can end up being poorly implemented.

So while I won't personally be backing you, I do wish you guys the best in producing a great game. And if you ever do want to make a game in a similar genre that someone like me would be interested in, it would be something like this:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/455396.page#4404000


Anyway, thanks again for taking the time to post here, and best of luck!

I think the Descent allusion is a good one. We considered using it, but were worried video game people would confuse it with the classic 6-axis space shooter. Thanks for the feedback and good questions. I've got a meeting first thing Monday with the team to re-edit the video and provide even more info. We've already got some additional updates ready to go so lots of stuff will follow on immediately.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Thunderfrog wrote:Hey Anthony,

Thanks for hitting all my points from my previous post. Adding this to your video I feel like it's a pretty cool concept altogether, where originally I didn't think it was worth looking into.

Obviously, that's excellent news for us!

I think your model could work after all, although I'm just a guy on the internet. I'm waffling at the 75$ contribution level. I can imagine it would be pretty neat to be able to have my tablet buzz me to take a turn at whackin monsters with spells or swords instead of trying to squeeze the word jorgmunifter into a triple letter space. The fact the updates roll to all my devices is pretty neat too.

So.. a few more questions!

1) Are there going to be different graphical standards across platforms? I can imagine a game dumbed down enough for my Droid or iphone is probably going to look pretty dated on my super pc. Vice versa, and the weaker hardware cannot handle it.

Yes, the reason the art will be hi-res is so that it can be down-res'd for the mobile platforms.

2) This won't apply to me if I donate at the 75 bucks range, but will others coming in later have to buy MwE for every platform they own? Or is getting it once enough?

The purchase will get you the desktop version (PC or Mac) with the full set of tools for customizing dungeons and your minis. We're currently considering making it free on mobile devices, but that limits you to playing with the first 4 minis that you get/choose. Once you purchase the full version, all of your stuff will be accessible on any platform.

3) ( A wild question appears!)

What is the estimated price of this game? If it's got all the features Im seeing for around 15$ (The lowest pledge to get the system on all platforms) then this is actually a good deal.

I realize that your revenue will come mostly from micro purchases, but honestly people who can stick to the f2p format seem to be getting a good deal of content for their money at 15 dollars.

Good question! That's still under discussion. I've seen $19.99 thrown around, but we haven't finalized any pricing yet. Maybe we'd be better off charging $60 and you can get everything by just playing with no micro payments? Probably not, but it's something we'll have to discuss.

4) Will there be a single-player mode?

Yes, we're currently planning the following modes:
* Single player (control up to 4 minis through the campaign)
* Co-op (up to 4 players through the campaign)
* Gamemaster (4 players vs 1GM controlling monsters)
* PvP (1-on-1 or 2-on-2)

Not sure which is my favorite yet...



Automatically Appended Next Post:

RiTides wrote:

SunSword wrote: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/heatwave/minis-with-enemies-taking-tabletop-mini-gaming-dig-0/posts

Wow... that's actually a very informative video. And I like the sound of it. The downside is that I have a windows phone which I'm pretty sure wouldn't be one of the devices supported.

Unfortunately, the Unity platform is skipping the Windows Phone 7. Not sure what their plans are for Windows 8. On the bright side, you could still play it on a Mac or PC!

I agree with perhaps editing that information into the original video or the like. But mobile, turn-based, words with friends with miniatures would be... pretty great, imo.

Not sure why that was so hard to convey to start but live and learn!

I think perhaps they were just too close to it. And our film-maker was maybe...not close enough? As you say, live and learn.

I hope you guys may decide to do something with it even if you don't reach the (rather ambitious) kickstarter goal. Someone linked to Dark Potential's indiegogo above, but I actually found that to be the exception, rather than the rule, in that they did not have ENOUGH initial content to really generate as much funding as they could have. They did, however, have a very recognizable name to tabletop wargamers, which carried them pretty far (and they put out more content as they went along with the campaign... but surprisingly, started with just a few pieces of artwork, and could have gotten a lot more if they'd been better prepared, imo).

It's something I bet the team would try to slow-burn on the side. Plenty of people think its a good idea even if we botched the launch of the KS. But I've still got some tricks up my sleeve once we correct the messaging.

I am also curious if you are the bearded or sans-bearded speaker not that you have to reveal that, of course (and perhaps you're neither).

I'm neither. I trained the bearded guy (Binky) in his first game industry job in like... 1995? He started in customer service, did some QA, moved into Game Community on Ultima Online and then on to game Marketing at Sony and EA. The non-bearded guy (Toad) thought this idea up. He was a QA tester at Origin Systems back in the day, say 1993? Worked on some great games like the Wing Commander series, System Shock and Ultima Online before he became a professional game designer. We've worked together various times over the last 17 years. Super creative. Both good guys.

Anyway, greatly appreciate your clarifying, and I would actually be very likely to purchase a game like what your second video describes, if it were available for one of my devices (perhaps even PC, although since it's turn-based, I wouldn't really be able to make use of it in a word with friends fashion).

Anytime, the folks in this form have been SUPER helpful to us in figuring out where we went wrong. Let's hope we can fix it and get the word out! I'll mull over your PC only situation. Maybe a Facebook plugin would serve for turn notifications so you didn't have run it all the time?

Integrating it through facebook would be an interesting idea. Or, as you mention, maybe Windows Phone 8 (which I think my phone will be getting upgraded to when it hits) will support Unity / etc.

Anyway, will be continuing to watch this move forward!

Hmmmmm I am not sure about this. . . Listening to the video it seems kinda boorish. . . I would much rather prefer a real TTG 3d Vassal style. It would be alot more fun to be able to play a 40K game with a buddy half way across the world.

Is there a video with a demonstration of an alpha or early build of the software?

Kind of hard to back a project that isn't exactly clear on what it is going to do. The videos are well made but don't exactly showcase any of the work done on the project.

Jacko4smackos wrote:Is there a video with a demonstration of an alpha or early build of the software?

Kind of hard to back a project that isn't exactly clear on what it is going to do. The videos are well made but don't exactly showcase any of the work done on the project.

Video is coming, however we've just posted a first look at the direction the project is taking. To be clear, this is a render, not an in-game shot. We'll be posting in-engine footage using the same assets shortly. In this scene, a dwarf faces off against two goblins. Close-ups of the dwarf are on the way as well.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/heatwave/minis-with-enemies-taking-tabletop-mini-gaming-dig-0/posts/249239

B) Is this a good idea or not (and in some cases, WTF is this game idea really?)
Well, obviously we think it's a cool idea, but we're not doign the best job of communicating it, so we're working to improve it. A few topics:

1) Collectable? There's been a lot of feedback on this particular topic. Essentially, we have to monetize by either charging for it all up front, or having a low barrier to entry with an up-sell. Honestly, I don't care either way, and I think the team is open to either. With regards to randomness, we all agree that you should be able to specifically purchase any asset that you want. The "blister" pack concept is a way of purchasing a set of things without having to get specific if you don't want to.

2) Wargame or tactical game? The first release of this game will be a tactical game. The technology we're building can absolutely be modified to support larger scales, but that's not the initial thrust of the game. Personally, I like bigger armies, but it's not my idea, so I'll have to wait .

3) Why is digital even a good idea? I think there are a lot of us who struggle to get the time to play physical games together because of where we are in life. It would be awesome if I could have 6 games of MwE going on my phone or iPad all the time and I just take a turn when I have a minute. Not trying to replace real tabletop gaming.

1) Collectible: This is hit or miss, and mostly miss. I don't know what your experience is in tabletop gaming, but you should look into the success rate of collectible miniature games. At best, they tend to flare in the beginning, then fizzle out. There are ways that I think you can "hit" on this better, which I'll detail later.

2) I like the Tactical/RPG style option better. There are platforms already (like Vassal) for playing wargames.

3) I agree totally. This is why the option appeals to me, a notorious NON-video gamer.

We didn't do a prototype for the launch because we didn't feel it would be visually compelling and could have turned people off. Admittedly, that may have been a mistake, but that's the reasoning we did it the way we did.

I agree. I think it was a mistake. A video of what we could expect (in low res mode) that opened with a statement that it was meant to represent game play and feel, but that the image quality in the game would be superior in resolution (maybe, with some still shots of what actual game play mode would look like) would have gone a long way towards silencing some of your detractors (at best) or (at worst) some of their complaints.

ThomasPolder wrote:

SunSword wrote:So a month ago the management team came to me and said they really wanted to hold an internal competition to see who had the best idea for a kickstarter project, something everyone could be excited about and that someone else wasn't already doing. We had lots of great pitches, but MINIs with Enemies won out. So here we are. We've got a lot of Unity expertise and we've built a great backend toolset for running cross-platform games.

sorry to rehash this from earlier in the topic, but are you REALLY sure you want to go with a name like that? I mean, it suddenly makes a world of sense to me, for an internal pitch. For a product title (and with kickstarter taking off the way it has, you'll have to treat your pitch as such in many ways), are you really sure it's a good idea?

I'm inclined to agree here. While I think your logo looks good, I think it would look better if it was a logo of a better name.
Do I have any suggestions? Nope. Sorry. Not at the moment. I can tell you this much, though; Dakka's FULL of creative people. There are game companies (like Mantic and Battlefoam) that have successfully named products based on contests run online on sites like DakkaDakka.

SunSword wrote:Too cute?

Too uninspiring. It doesn't fuel the imagination.

Descent, Magic: the Gathering, Dungeons & Dragons, Doom, Diablo, Last Night on Earth, Red Dead Redemption; these games have attractive and creative names. "Minis with Enemies" sounds, frankly, like someone thought it would be clever to riff on the "Words with Friends" name, since the idea's the same. It's good for making your pitch to the boss, but it's not going to inspire someone to pick your box up off of the shelf at random in Walmart. I know I'd walk right past a box with that name, myself. Maybe I'm not the best test subject since, as I said earlier, I'm not a video gamer, but there have been plenty of games that I've picked up and looked at SOLELY because of the name, box art, or "catch phrase / tag line" on the front of the box.

SunSword wrote:There's actually a new video update that answers this question (and some of the others) here: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/heatwave/minis-with-enemies-taking-tabletop-mini-gaming-dig-0/posts

The short answer is that it is a MINI-style game, not an RPG. So the MINIs have fixed character sheets. People can build their own dungeons/scenarios/campaigns, but it isn't an RPG system. In other words, a GM can make rooms, populate them with enemy MINIs, traps and objectives and then have other players play through. There's been some discussion of allowing other kinds of events like dialogue, but I think the team is currently steering away from a story-telling RPG feel. I don't think we ever suggested that people could use it to play other games.

I'll have to check your video later. My work PC has no speakers. For now, though, these thoughts/issues/questions arise. Forgive me, if the video covers them:

Will there be a chat mode? If I'm playing a cooperative game with 3 other people, and I've got to communicate with them OUTSIDE the game, that won't go well, if they're strangers. To begin with, I don't want to give out my email address to strangers that I might only be playing with for one game. They'll likely feel the same. As for my friends? Well, it would just be easier to type in a message and know they're going to see it the next time they log in, rather than HOPING they check their email before firing off that fireball.
While I'm thinking of that, will there be an integral notification? Perhaps something that sends out a message (email or otherwise) when it's your turn again, or will we have to keep logging in to check and see whose turn it is?

SunSword wrote:Good question! That's still under discussion. I've seen $19.99 thrown around, but we haven't finalized any pricing yet. Maybe we'd be better off charging $60 and you can get everything by just playing with no micro payments? Probably not, but it's something we'll have to discuss.

Whether or not I support the KS project has to do with 2 factors:
1) My personal financial situation, once I'm convinced I'll like the game engine (times are tough, after all)
2) What I see in the Kickstarter

If I'm uncertain and don't support the KS, but the project funds & gets off the ground, I would definitely look into it when it hits the market. At $20, I'd probably be in. At $60, I'm putting down the box and walking away.

Lysenis wrote:Hmmmmm I am not sure about this. . . Listening to the video it seems kinda boorish. . . I would much rather prefer a real TTG 3d Vassal style. It would be alot more fun to be able to play a 40K game with a buddy half way across the world.

You can... with Vassal.
While I see some (for me) imperfections in their approach, I fail to see why you'd want this to just be another Vassal?



Those aside, here are some comments/questions I have for you, SunSword:


Will you be able to use one mini simultaneously in multiple games, or will it be unavailable for secondary games, once a primary game is initiated?

Why not some sort of ability escalation?

For privately created games, why make the DM have to furnish all the treasure, etc? If he's taking the time to create a dungeon, why not 'front' a certain amount of treasure, based on the monsters he's including, and allow him to add other treasures from his collection, if he desires?
For that matter, why not reward DM's who make their creations public for ANYONE to play by furnishing the monsters AND treasures for that dungeon? He determines what monsters will be in the game (perhaps he has to "own" those monsters first, so you can still monetize it) and, if he makes it a public dungeon, you supply those monsters and, just like my previous suggestion, appropriate treasure? Essentially, he does the creation work and you get (a) the money for the monsters he's had to buy and (b) a free dungeon for all of your members/subscribers/players to use, thus increasing the value to them, since they now have more game play options.

Why not have the models come pre-painted, but allow them to be repainted? Some people won't want to take the time to paint their own models, and this would help them... that, or have a "pre-designed" template or 2 for each model that they can just click on.
Will a player have the ability to have his collection visible to the public? If so, you could have an 'emulate' option, so someone could just click it & have their model match? Maybe the owner of the original model has the option to allow emulation but, if he does, you give him a tiny amount of game credit?

How will you handle dungeon vs. character "levels?" How will you be sure that your dungeons, or the dungeons created by others, are not overpowered? Will the system compute a recommended level (by player or by party) based on the contents of the dungeon? Or, vice versa, will there be limits on what can be used by dungeon creators, based on which models he inputs that his players will be using? I don't want to be playing my "common" halfling thief with an equivalent character level of 2 in a dungeon where you walk around the corner and, "SURPRISE! Ancient Red Dragon! You die!"

What kind of treasure will there be? Will it all be in the vein of "game credits/gold," or will there also be magic items that can be assigned to a model, either permanently or swappable between minis? If it's swappable, will there be a limit on which minis can use it? A cloak of invisibility and ring of ice resistance would NOT be fair on the aforementioned ancient red dragon.
IF there's non-monetary treasure and IF it's permanently assigned to whichever model you give it to, what happens if you trade that model? Do you have to trade the items with it or are they unassigned and, therefore, able to be assigned to someone new?
Hmm... Saw this on your KS page:

Defeat the Adventure Map objective to win Items, Minis, and Gold! Gold can be used to buy new Minis, usable items, Adventure Editor pieces and creatures as well as user generated Adventure Maps.

The Minis with Enemies Bazaar is a marketplace where you can browse and buy Minis, Adventure Maps, Set Decorations, Tile Sets, and other items using your in-game Gold and cold hard cash!

Okay... I'm partially answered. There are usable items. The SPECIFICS of my question re: items is unanswered, but I know there will be items, at least.
What about those Adventure Editor pieces? Will those be dropped as random treasures at the end? If so, what if I don't want to create my own maps? Can I opt out of certain treasure types? Will there be a gold/credit value associated with each, so I can swap it out for something else? If so, could I swap out 2 or 3 things for ONE item that's equal to their total value (or less)? Would there, otherwise, be a "trade zone," where 2 players could agree on a trade, enter their items, and the system automatically processes the trade?




From a previous post of mine:

The "miniatures" in these packs come unpainted. Will you HAVE to paint them before playing with them? If not, how soon until we see a rise of people criticizing you and refusing to play you with your gray, unpainted digi-models?

If you're not familiar with the community surrounding Warhammer 40K and the like, there are many people who will refuse to play against people who do not have completely painted armies. So, really, I think this is a valid question and something you should explore. My earlier questions/suggestions re: painting could do wonders towards solving the issue.

Each Mini comes with a character card that tells its name, backstory, stats, skills and abilities. The character card also shows the Mini’s die rolls and keeps track of its health and penalties.

Will my mini revert to normal after the game ends? What if it "dies" in the game? I presume it's not lost, entirely?


Earlier, I mentioned the problems I see with the collectible aspect of your game and said I had suggestions on improving it. Well, here goes. I'll start with a quote of an earlier post of mine:

I wouldn't mind the randomness as much, if the packs were, at least, targeted.
I mean, if I plan on being a DM for a group, maybe I don't want to risk getting a bunch of halflings and a half orc. Let me buy a "Goblin pack" that contains, if not ALL Goblins, at least goblinoids. Let me buy an undead pack, a drow pack, etc. This way, I can have a CHANCE to get something I need to populate my dungeon with. If I'm creating "Assault on the goblin warrens," I don't want to have to buy 500 packs in hopes of getting together 50 or 60 goblin troops.

You want 3 types of packs:

Common Blister Packs: These contain 4 random common minis with a small chance of getting 1 uncommon mini
Gold Blister Packs: These contain 1 random uncommon mini and have a higher chance of getting additional uncommon minis as well as a very slight chance of getting a rare mini
You will be able to buy Platinum Blister packs using real world money. Platinum Blister Packs will contain 1 random rare mini and three uncommon minis with a slight chance of getting additional rare minis.

Target those packs as best possible. I don't have a list of you 100 models, so I can't be specific. I'll just use commong fantasy creatures/monsters.

Common Blister Pack: 4 Random Common minis of one type This could be all goblins, for example, with a mix of types, if applicable (spearmen, archers, etc), with a chance of getting 1 uncommon mini (a hobgoblin, goblin shaman, etc). Orcs, halflings, adventurers, dwarves, missile wielding adventurers, close combat adventurers, magic wielders (arcane, divine and/or a mix) etc. could all potentially be packs.

Gold Blister Pack: 1 Uncommon Mini (goblin shaman, hobgoblin, etc., as above) and commons. Maybe another shaman, hobgoblin, etc., and maybe a rare (Goblin Chieftan)., Etc.
Platinum Blister: Dark Elf Pack - 1 Rare (Dark Elf Priestess), 3 uncommons (Dark Elf wizard. fighters, etc). Maybe another Priestess or a Giant Poisonous Spider as a bonus rare.

This would allow you to target your audiences or, rather, allow your audience to target themselves. If you see that a few packs are outselling the rest, you know that more minis along those lines will probably be popular in future expansions. If a few are failing utterly (nobody's buying the Platinum "Oozes and Slimes" pack), you know that you need to (a) phase it out or (b) bring out models to support it better, so that it's more attractive.

And, for heaven's sake, DON'T discontinue any of the models. Ever. This will only cause a false inflation of any secondary/after market value on them if you DO allow inter-player trading. That will KILL the market.



I look forward to your responses.

Eric


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SunSword wrote:

Jacko4smackos wrote:Is there a video with a demonstration of an alpha or early build of the software?

Kind of hard to back a project that isn't exactly clear on what it is going to do. The videos are well made but don't exactly showcase any of the work done on the project.

Video is coming, however we've just posted a first look at the direction the project is taking. To be clear, this is a render, not an in-game shot. We'll be posting in-engine footage using the same assets shortly. In this scene, a dwarf faces off against two goblins. Close-ups of the dwarf are on the way as well.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/heatwave/minis-with-enemies-taking-tabletop-mini-gaming-dig-0/posts/249239

Looks like you covered one of my points here.
I'm at work, posting in my free time. The previous post was about 2 hours in the making. LOL So, I missed this post.

Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:

Lysenis wrote:Hmmmmm I am not sure about this. . . Listening to the video it seems kinda boorish. . . I would much rather prefer a real TTG 3d Vassal style. It would be alot more fun to be able to play a 40K game with a buddy half way across the world.

You can... with Vassal.
While I see some (for me) imperfections in their approach, I fail to see why you'd want this to just be another Vassal?

Looking at vassal I am stuck looking at the game from a 12 noon position. What I want is the ability to set up a Malifaux, Necromunda, BFG, Epic style games. I want the ability to host a Deathwatch, All is war, Pathfinder games, not just their game. Since this game is being Kickstarted for $300,000 I would think that this style of game would be able to host multiple versions, if not I am getting a copy (if it gets created) creating a free mod file since it will not be that difficult to do, and release it to all those that want to play.