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kinratha wrote:I think IG should beable to ally with them.. Genestealer cult anyone?

Only if the ally list is restricted to Broodlords and Genestealers.

But, what the Genestealer Cult needs is its own list. Even if it is a "Go away, leave us alone!" White Dwarf list like the Sisters got.


If you open the floodgates on Tyranids and I Guard allies, you're going to create a bunch of min/maxed combinations that have nothing to do with the original Genestealer Cult fluff. So I'm against it. And this is coming from a guy who would happily dust off his Genestealer Cult army if it came back. But I don't want it being half, or even quarter assed.

Ol'Dirty wrote:I don't know that much about all the "fluff" yet, but it seems like maybe Tyranids would ignore Necrons since they wouldn't have biomass and maybe Necrons would let Tyranids just do their thing since it involves killing the other organic life (at least untill they get rid of whoever else is on the planet they happen to be fighting on). It might be a bit of a stretch, but that's all I could come up with for a semi feasable Tyranid alliance.

I have wondered if Tyranids can interface/comprehend technology. If they can I could see them attacking Necrons to get information. If not I could see them attacking them because the Necrons are poaching their prey (eleminate compitition). Either way I do not see the Tyranids have allys (though I could see a situation were another race could find a way to enslave a group of Tyranids by somehow using technology to mimic a hivemind like control.

You will be able to take extra nid units.

You also have the most monstrous creatures of any codex.

You are getting a massive monstrous creature buff.

Be happy, it's not as bad as you think it will be :-) Be prepared to be surprised.

Each army was given a list of allies containing:
1. All armies which actually made sense for them.
2. Randomly chosen armies until the quota of 11 potential allies was met.

Or, conversely, you could say that each army had 5 armies chosen for it which were a no-go zone. Plus Tyranids.

Kanluwen wrote:

Zookie wrote:Do you think the tyranids will get some other kind of bonus to off set that they cannot take allies?

Why would they?

To provide gameplay balance

Granted it is just speculation at this point. But If an army is allowed to take one or two chooses to augment their army (like the tau being able a unit of assault marines to give them a CC boost). Then the Tyranids be at serious disadvantage as they would not be able supplement there weakness but other armies will be able to. So it might make sense to give them some other kind of benefit to counter this disadvantage.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

kinratha wrote:I think IG should beable to ally with them.. Genestealer cult anyone?

If you open the floodgates on Tyranids and I Guard allies, you're going to create a bunch of min/maxed combinations that have nothing to do with the original Genestealer Cult fluff. So I'm against it. And this is coming from a guy who would happily dust off his Genestealer Cult army if it came back. But I don't want it being half, or even quarter assed.

And you don't think that you're already see that? People are going to be slipping GKs, Blood Angels, etc into their lists anyways. Allowing people to have the chance to take an army that would be fun at the risk of having overpowered combinations is something GW has been doing for some time.

PS- I'm jealous you had a GCult, I always just drooled over it as a kid in 2nd.

Zookie wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Zookie wrote:Do you think the tyranids will get some other kind of bonus to off set that they cannot take allies?

Why would they?

To provide gameplay balance

Granted it is just speculation at this point. But If an army is allowed to take one or two chooses to augment their army (like the tau being able a unit of assault marines to give them a CC boost). Then the Tyranids be at serious disadvantage as they would not be able supplement there weakness but other armies will be able to. So it might make sense to give them some other kind of benefit to counter this disadvantage.

We don't know what is able to be taken yet.

Plus, this idea that "Tyranids would be at a serious disadvantage" is a day late and a dollar short. They're already at a disadvantage, thanks to a rather "meh" Codex. That does not, however, mean that there needs to be some "Tyranid only superspecial bonus" put into play.

Kanluwen wrote:

Zookie wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Zookie wrote:Do you think the tyranids will get some other kind of bonus to off set that they cannot take allies?

Why would they?

To provide gameplay balance

Granted it is just speculation at this point. But If an army is allowed to take one or two chooses to augment their army (like the tau being able a unit of assault marines to give them a CC boost). Then the Tyranids be at serious disadvantage as they would not be able supplement there weakness but other armies will be able to. So it might make sense to give them some other kind of benefit to counter this disadvantage.

We don't know what is able to be taken yet.

Plus, this idea that "Tyranids would be at a serious disadvantage" is a day late and a dollar short. They're already at a disadvantage, thanks to a rather "meh" Codex. That does not, however, mean that there needs to be some "Tyranid only superspecial bonus" put into play.

And since it's be done it can't be fixed? How hard would it be for them to Errata in that IG can take a suppliment of Genestealers or visa versa? As for the Tyranids Codex being broken, it's the same. Just because they're currently crap doesn't mean they should be left that way. I don't play Tyranids but don't want to see them left as are

Kanluwen wrote:

Zookie wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Zookie wrote:Do you think the tyranids will get some other kind of bonus to off set that they cannot take allies?

Why would they?

To provide gameplay balance

Granted it is just speculation at this point. But If an army is allowed to take one or two chooses to augment their army (like the tau being able a unit of assault marines to give them a CC boost). Then the Tyranids be at serious disadvantage as they would not be able supplement there weakness but other armies will be able to. So it might make sense to give them some other kind of benefit to counter this disadvantage.

We don't know what is able to be taken yet.

Plus, this idea that "Tyranids would be at a serious disadvantage" is a day late and a dollar short. They're already at a disadvantage, thanks to a rather "meh" Codex. That does not, however, mean that there needs to be some "Tyranid only superspecial bonus" put into play.

Like I said it is all speculation and I am speculating even though Tyranids won’t take allies they will have some other kind of rule that will affect them in the similar way to ally’s rules. Just because the Tyranids do not have the strongest codex in game does not mean anything one way or the other about how the new 6th edition allies rules will apply.

Are there even set rules regarding how allies will work that we know of?

felixander wrote:
And since it's be done it can't be fixed? How hard would it be for them to Errata in that IG can take a suppliment of Genestealers or visa versa?

The point.

You've missed it.
There's no reason, at all, for IG to get Genestealers as some kind of "Genestealer Cult".
First and foremost--that's not what a Genestealer Cult was. Secondly--that's the lazy way out.

As for the Tyranids Codex being broken, it's the same.

No, it's not. The Tyranid codex being broken is symptomatic of Robin Cruddace's work. He writes poorly balanced books, where there is at best two ways to play your force effectively without a lot of trial and error.

It being broken also means that quite likely we will see, much like the Vampire Counts and Empire, a new book in a relatively short amount of time as GW has taken a stance of "do things right the first time and we can keep the book on the shelves longer".

Just because they're currently crap doesn't mean they should be left that way. I don't play Tyranids but don't want to see them left as are

I'm sorry, I must have missed something.

Where did I type "They're crap and should be left that way!"?

Oh. I didn't. You're taking your own interpretation of my post and then trying to create an inflammatory perception to justify it.

You don't fix a problem as large as the Tyranids by simply releasing an errata allowing them to take Guardsmen or vice versa. You fix it by FIXING IT with having another author go over it and undo the shoddy work that Cruddace did.
You also don't fix the problem by making it a universal rule in the main rulebook that "Since Tyranids can't take allies, they get X, Y, and Z".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Amaya wrote:Are there even set rules regarding how allies will work that we know of?

We know there's different levels of allies, and that "Alliances of Convenience" essentially treat each other as foes who cannot be shot at.

Amaya wrote:Are there even set rules regarding how allies will work that we know of?

Not really there are some rumors that you can only take up to 1 HQ and 2 troops. Others say you will be able to other types of units. And clearly there is a difference between brother in arms, grudging allies and unholy alliances. But we do not know what they are yet..

Zookie wrote:

Amaya wrote:Are there even set rules regarding how allies will work that we know of?

Not really there are some rumors that you can only take up to 1 HQ and 2 troops. Others say you will be able to other types of units. And clearly there is a difference between brother in arms, grudging allies and unholy alliances. But we do not know what they are yet..

That table of "Grudging Allies" and "Unholy Alliances" is for a GW Doubles tournament which is going on right now and continuing into July; and likely will be invalidated by the release of the rulebook.

It's likely a stopgap measure prior to the release of the book.

It being broken also means that quite likely we will see, much like the Vampire Counts and Empire, a new book in a relatively short amount of time as GW has taken a stance of "do things right the first time and we can keep the book on the shelves longer".

Why are VC and Empire broken now? They seem rather well done, especially considering VC's was one of the "Big Four" in 7th.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

It being broken also means that quite likely we will see, much like the Vampire Counts and Empire, a new book in a relatively short amount of time as GW has taken a stance of "do things right the first time and we can keep the book on the shelves longer".

Why are VC and Empire broken now? They seem rather well done, especially considering VC's was one of the "Big Four" in 7th.

They aren't broken now.

They WERE broken, through a few errors.

Basically, the deal was that Vampires were pigeonholed into specific builds that were not very well liked by the designers through the way 8th went.

Kanluwen wrote:

felixander wrote:
And since it's be done it can't be fixed? How hard would it be for them to Errata in that IG can take a suppliment of Genestealers or visa versa?

The point.

You've missed it.
There's no reason, at all, for IG to get Genestealers as some kind of "Genestealer Cult".
First and foremost--that's not what a Genestealer Cult was. Secondly--that's the lazy way out.

felixander wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

kinratha wrote:I think IG should beable to ally with them.. Genestealer cult anyone?

If you open the floodgates on Tyranids and I Guard allies, you're going to create a bunch of min/maxed combinations that have nothing to do with the original Genestealer Cult fluff. So I'm against it. And this is coming from a guy who would happily dust off his Genestealer Cult army if it came back. But I don't want it being half, or even quarter assed.

And you don't think that you're already see that? People are going to be slipping GKs, Blood Angels, etc into their lists anyways. Allowing people to have the chance to take an army that would be fun at the risk of having overpowered combinations is something GW has been doing for some time.

PS- I'm jealous you had a GCult, I always just drooled over it as a kid in 2nd.

I mean, I'm with you. I worry about allowing allies just because I know how people will exploit it.

But I don't see any reason to compound the issue, lol. GK/BA or SW/SM mixes might be unbalanced game wise, but an army of Tyranids supported by a squadron of Leman Russ Tanks and some I Guard veterans is just an unholy violation of every sacred orifice the fluff has, haha.

Where, exactly, does having and not having allies make an army better or worse? All it does is allow you to either a) even out an army's weakness in a certain area or b) allow you to create really fluffy armies.

If an army just can't live without a unit of GK Paladins, aren't you better off just playing Grey Knights?

Mahtamori wrote:Where, exactly, does having and not having allies make an army better or worse?

If you can use allies to even out weaknesses of your army, by definition your army gets better.
Conversely, armies that cannot even out their weaknesses with allies are worse.

Kanluwen wrote:

felixander wrote:
And since it's be done it can't be fixed? How hard would it be for them to Errata in that IG can take a suppliment of Genestealers or visa versa?

The point.

You've missed it.
There's no reason, at all, for IG to get Genestealers as some kind of "Genestealer Cult".
First and foremost--that's not what a Genestealer Cult was. Secondly--that's the lazy way out.

There was never a really hard and fast way to have a Genestealer Cult. There were plenty of phases of the process that would have taken decades to come to fruition. The infiltration phases, and then all the way to the all-out rebellion and disruption phases that would have preceded the invasion as the now-strengthened Cult made power moves.

The 2E Codex: Tyranids had rules for what was essentially PDF(Guard) Brood Brothers, complete with Chimeras, Leman Russ tanks, etc. That would simply be the later phases of the Cult infestation where it had managed to take control of more important facets of the populace.


Few people are going to want to play the weak, underground Genestealer Cult list, lol. It would be hideously weak, and would (and should) be squished by the current armies which represent hardened combat units. That sort of Genestealer Cult is a foe for a Dark Heresy game, or a Deathwatch Kill Team. If the Cult is making it to the 40K tabletop, it's going to be in a form that would have something to offer its players, as well as its opponents.

Kanluwen wrote:

No they could not have. Genestealer Cults are made up of random civilians and mutants

This isn't and never has been exclusively true. Cult fluff states that one of the first things they do is work their way into the PDF of the planet so that they have a real bodyguard force if they are discovered.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

felixander wrote:
And since it's be done it can't be fixed? How hard would it be for them to Errata in that IG can take a suppliment of Genestealers or visa versa?

The point.

You've missed it.
There's no reason, at all, for IG to get Genestealers as some kind of "Genestealer Cult".
First and foremost--that's not what a Genestealer Cult was. Secondly--that's the lazy way out.

There was never a really hard and fast way to have a Genestealer Cult. There were plenty of phases of the process that would have taken decades to come to fruition. The infiltration phases, and then all the way to the all-out rebellion and disruption phases that would have preceded the invasion as the now-strengthened Cult made power moves.

The 2E Codex: Tyranids had rules for what was essentially PDF(Guard) Brood Brothers, complete with Chimeras, Leman Russ tanks, etc. That would simply be the later phases of the Cult infestation where it had managed to take control of more important facets of the populace.


Few people are going to want to play the weak, underground Genestealer Cult list, lol. It would be hideously weak, and would (and should) be squished by the current armies which represent hardened combat units. That sort of Genestealer Cult is a foe for a Dark Heresy game, or a Deathwatch Kill Team. If the Cult is making it to the 40K tabletop, it's going to be in a form that would have something to offer its players, as well as its opponents.

Which is kinda the point I was making.

The Genestealer Cults which actually make it to the point you're talking about (the PDF subversion--also: PLANETARY DEFENSE FORCES ARE NOT IMPERIAL GUARD. I've gone into this multiple times and am not going to again.) are so rare they're not even worth mentioning on the tabletop format.

If someone wants them, use the Vraksian renegades as the basis for the cultists.

i dont think the tyranids have a "alliance" mentality. the hive mind dosent need friends or help....it just EATS. go there, eat that, move to the next. its like a starving fat man at a buffet....just OM NOM NOM...

it dosent want or need help in doing it. it just wants to do so, with as little resitance from the salad as possible.

as far as anyone else goes...why would you want a horde of rampaging beasts to aid you anyway? chances are your army has fought and lost a major battle vrs tyranids, and the prospect of an alliance with them would be crazy. any commander who suggested it would probally be exiled or executed in varying methods, swiftness and durations.

in game, sucks for the bugs.... but its understandable and acceptable.

@DarthSpader while i agree its understandable i do not agree that its acceptable, i personally find it a bad idea that one army is weaken because of the fluff, if so they shouldn't allow the games to have the rules, its that simple. I think that it will allow people to fill in weakness for their codex and take a bigger FOC while Tyranids (an army that struggles because of the FOC) hasn't got anything for it, yes if the rules for detachments allows for same army allies that would be find but from what we have read form various sources this may not be the case so not only will tyranids have to deal with superior codex (in terms of balance), superior armies(armies that have patched their weakness) they also have to deal with the fact they have to take unfavorable option to fill in the points as to build the list to the points level (we talking 2000+ which i believe from the rumors to be the new level for 40K). i find a few ways to correct this problem:
1)not allow allies without opponents consent
2) allow for armies to Allie with their own codex
3) don't fix it for a while, then release a new codex ( i see this as the least likely as its a 5th ed codex with overs really needing the fix first)
but GW is probably forget about it until they have to admit its a problem.
rant over sorry .

Kanluwen wrote:
The Genestealer Cults which actually make it to the point you're talking about (the PDF subversion--also: PLANETARY DEFENSE FORCES ARE NOT IMPERIAL GUARD. I've gone into this multiple times and am not going to again.) are so rare they're not even worth mentioning on the tabletop format..

Two things: First, probably a really good idea not to get into the differentiation between Guard and PDF, lol. On the tabletop it's almost irrelevant and there's no place you're going to go with that.

Second, everything that happens in 40K is rare. It's kinda silly to suggest one thing would be more silly than another. It's a game, not a historical reenactment.

i dont think the tyranids have a "alliance" mentality. the hive mind dosent need friends or help....it just EATS. go there, eat that, move to the next. its like a starving fat man at a buffet....just OM NOM NOM...

it dosent want or need help in doing it. it just wants to do so, with as little resitance from the salad as possible.

However it can understand tactical benefits, if it would benefit itself to leave those "Allies" on the field and concentrate on those who are killing it, it will ignore the willing gene cult and concentrate on the vital things first..And than eat the genecult. Though there should be a penalty, like if something isn't in synapse range and it's near a genecult IG, it has a chance of going beserk and trying to kill it anyways, to represent the weaker mind of lesser beasts.

rigeld2 wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:Where, exactly, does having and not having allies make an army better or worse?

If you can use allies to even out weaknesses of your army, by definition your army gets better.
Conversely, armies that cannot even out their weaknesses with allies are worse.

I think my point is that having an ally doesn't necessarily make your army better. Additionally, evening out a weakness doesn't make your army better either, I should know since I play Eldar where evening out weaknesses is the last thing you want to do - you want to emphasise on a single strength.

However, what does make an army better from having allies is where the army can be benefited disproportionally through synergy, I'll give you that. What I mean to say is: expect to see a whole bunch of Eldrad running around, leading to psychers being out of flavour (except for Eldrad/Farseer) for the coming half year.

Nids' did not get allies, but I understand that they can still use detachments,of which allies are on type, to beef up things like the elite slot allowing, in the example i saw, up 12 hive guard. That means basicly you now get 4 elite slots. I expect to see more of the other elites on the table now.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
The Genestealer Cults which actually make it to the point you're talking about (the PDF subversion--also: PLANETARY DEFENSE FORCES ARE NOT IMPERIAL GUARD. I've gone into this multiple times and am not going to again.) are so rare they're not even worth mentioning on the tabletop format..

Two things: First, probably a really good idea not to get into the differentiation between Guard and PDF, lol. On the tabletop it's almost irrelevant and there's no place you're going to go with that.

Except there is a difference.
Conscripts are, for all intents and purposes, the statlines of PDF troopers. As a rule, the PDF are not necessarily made up of the best trained or best equipped troops. You have a few exceptions, but by and large they're low on morale but high in manpower.

Second, everything that happens in 40K is rare. It's kinda silly to suggest one thing would be more silly than another. It's a game, not a historical reenactment.

While it's certainly not a historical reenactment, there is still a framework of background to go from.

Kanluwen wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
The Genestealer Cults which actually make it to the point you're talking about (the PDF subversion--also: PLANETARY DEFENSE FORCES ARE NOT IMPERIAL GUARD. I've gone into this multiple times and am not going to again.) are so rare they're not even worth mentioning on the tabletop format..

Two things: First, probably a really good idea not to get into the differentiation between Guard and PDF, lol. On the tabletop it's almost irrelevant and there's no place you're going to go with that.

Except there is a difference.
Conscripts are, for all intents and purposes, the statlines of PDF troopers. As a rule, the PDF are not necessarily made up of the best trained or best equipped troops. You have a few exceptions, but by and large they're low on morale but high in manpower.

Second, everything that happens in 40K is rare. It's kinda silly to suggest one thing would be more silly than another. It's a game, not a historical reenactment.

While it's certainly not a historical reenactment, there is still a framework of background to go from.

Sorry but the PDF varies from world to world, some are good enough to stand aside IG, some are even worse than the worst of the conscripts, it's what happens when the PDF isn't a unified force and depends on the planet they are on for weapons and such. There are even some really rich worlds that can afford IG level equipment, and some have purchased gear from Rogue Traders, and potentially Xeno's. So they may be even better equipped at times than IG.