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I play an Elysian airborne army with all fast attack slots full of valkyries and vendettas with hydras as heavy support so I'm not gonna change my army at all. This new "flyers" thing should make my army a bit better by the sounds of it

I'm curious to see how many hull points Chimeras wind up with. 3? LR chassis' will more than likely get 4 so 3 makes sense.

Vendettas as flyers is so rude too. They auto glance most other aircraft and have extra armor for free. Emperor help the enemies of the IG.

Joey wrote:You assume AP 2 is +1 and AP 1 is +2. I've also heard AP2 is standard and AP3 and above is -1.
Frankly I can't see lascannons getting a huge buff.

AP2 should get the +1 but it's not really a buff when you look at the new Vehicle Damage table. Only a 6 destroys the vehicle since wrecked is only caused by removing all hull points. So a lascannon penetrating hit destroys a normal vehicle on a 5 or 6 which is the same as the last edition. The difference is that it explodes for both results.





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edbradders wrote:I play an Elysian airborne army with all fast attack slots full of valkyries and vendettas with hydras as heavy support so I'm not gonna change my army at all. This new "flyers" thing should make my army a bit better by the sounds of it

Your army should be OK as long as you don't lose many fully loaded aircraft while Zooming. You will also probably be dropping troops via Grav Chute insertion because transports seem to have a new limitation on how far they can move before passengers disembark. We are not sure yet if that applies to flying transports. Fliers are also much more vulnerable when they hover to unload passengers.





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KrimsunBaron wrote:Well the overwatch special rule has been confirmed, sounds like something that is rule breaking but broken down it's really not.

30 Shots, 6 to hit, 5 hits and that's not many wounds at all.
I would say 3 wounds tops, now that's not going to make them more efficient.

Either way until the full book comes out tactics are rather redundant due to the lack of a full picture.

If the rumor is true that Overwatch is like normal shooting with a BS1, then you also get Rapid Fire plus heavy weapons (heavy bolters may surface again) and special weapons. You may also get to throw one grenade per unit which has a slightly higher strength than a lasrifle. All of my blobs will keep at least one flamer to help out versus assault.

From the Rulebook:

AP 2 is +1

AP 1 does something different, can't remember what it was.

Overwatch doesn't exist. It is all under Snap Fire rules.

Snapfire, once per turn, per squad, pick target in multiple assaults, can use when move, no blast weapons, BS1. Template weapons get d3 hits.


Hull Points:
Glancing hits don't do anything except take a hull point.
Can be repaired, a Techmarine can repair d3 hull points a turn.
Dreads - 3
Russ, Raiders - 4
Rhinos - 3
Pens take hull points and do damage.
Cover for vehicles is much harder.
Vehicles have the same shooting.
Can always shoot with snapfire.

Hmmm...my techpriest and his servitors may have a job again.

JB wrote:Hmmm...my techpriest and his servitors may have a job again.

Right? Put them in a Chimera, they don't take an HQ slot, unlike a Master of the Forge. They don't take an Elite spot unlike Techmarines.

I think Techpriest are going to be awesome!

I'm gonna play Devil's Advocate here.

Necrons have Rapid Fire Snipers, on units that can mark enemy units for 2+ wounding. The same unit can also pull Marbo on that CCS with your OotF as soon as any of your Valks/Vendettas turns up. Add in a Res Orb Lord, and that unit will survive unless your opponent rolls very badly.


++End Devil's Advocation++

IHateNids wrote:I'm gonna play Devil's Advocate here.

Necrons have Rapid Fire Snipers, on units that can mark enemy units for 2+ wounding. The same unit can also pull Marbo on that CCS with your OotF as soon as any of your Valks/Vendettas turns up. Add in a Res Orb Lord, and that unit will survive unless your opponent rolls very badly.


++End Devil's Advocation++

I see your deathmarks and raise you broadsides with pathfinders.

I haven't read much of the rumors for the yet but it seems that Basilisks might be able to pull double duty as anti-flyers.

Since the roll for scatter as opposing to hit, they don't take the major penalties for fireing at the fast moving flyer, and since they are strength 9 even on the edge of the blast template, you've got as good a chance of hitting a flyer with a Earthshaker round as any other tank, better even since they tend to have absurdly large wingspans.

I really like this idea, mostly because of how absurd it seems.

"It seems like the xeno scum has brought aircraft. Order the artillery to begin firing randomly into the air. "

JB wrote:Hmmm...my techpriest and his servitors may have a job again.

Yup, 6 Russes at >2000 points with a couple of techpriests for good measure will sort out Missile Spam easily

Thatguyoverthere wrote:I haven't read much of the rumors for the yet but it seems that Basilisks might be able to pull double duty as anti-flyers.

Since the roll for scatter as opposing to hit, they don't take the major penalties for fireing at the fast moving flyer, and since they are strength 9 even on the edge of the blast template, you've got as good a chance of hitting a flyer with a Earthshaker round as any other tank, better even since they tend to have absurdly large wingspans.

I really like this idea, mostly because of how absurd it seems.

"It seems like the xeno scum has brought aircraft. Order the artillery to begin firing randomly into the air. "

Don't laugh. The German 88 that the Basalisk was inspired by saw heavy use as an AA gun, lobbing high explosive shells into formations of Allied bombers.

Yeah, but Allied bombers tended to fly a little higher then treetop level.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:

Thatguyoverthere wrote:I haven't read much of the rumors for the yet but it seems that Basilisks might be able to pull double duty as anti-flyers.

Since the roll for scatter as opposing to hit, they don't take the major penalties for fireing at the fast moving flyer, and since they are strength 9 even on the edge of the blast template, you've got as good a chance of hitting a flyer with a Earthshaker round as any other tank, better even since they tend to have absurdly large wingspans.

I really like this idea, mostly because of how absurd it seems.

"It seems like the xeno scum has brought aircraft. Order the artillery to begin firing randomly into the air. "

Don't laugh. The German 88 that the Basalisk was inspired by saw heavy use as an AA gun, lobbing high explosive shells into formations of Allied bombers.

The Flak 18 cannon was built as a flak cannon at Krupp and Rhinemetall, it's MO was anti-aircraft. Only in Spain did German commanders realize its force multiplying capability after they developed the AT round for the cannon. Also, standard HE rounds of the era were dependent on contact to explode, flak rounds had warheads with pre-scored hulls to shatter when they exploded (basically a giant hand grenade) after their preset fuse was spent (usually 15 seconds when dealing with high level bombers at 25,000-30,000 feet).

I'd say the bassie looks like a Hummel, the Armageddon or Vanaheim patterns are near clones.


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Thatguyoverthere wrote:Yeah, but Allied bombers tended to fly a little higher then treetop level.

That's what the Wirbelwind aka Hydra is for

Thatguyoverthere wrote:I haven't read much of the rumors for the yet but it seems that Basilisks might be able to pull double duty as anti-flyers.

Since the roll for scatter as opposing to hit, they don't take the major penalties for fireing at the fast moving flyer, and since they are strength 9 even on the edge of the blast template, you've got as good a chance of hitting a flyer with a Earthshaker round as any other tank, better even since they tend to have absurdly large wingspans.

I really like this idea, mostly because of how absurd it seems.

"It seems like the xeno scum has brought aircraft. Order the artillery to begin firing randomly into the air. "

I'm planning to use my Manticore and MoO for this. The Manticore ought to be particularly good because of the possible extra pie plates and S10 ordnance which will usually penetrate most fliers.





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IHateNids wrote:I'm gonna play Devil's Advocate here.

Necrons have Rapid Fire Snipers, on units that can mark enemy units for 2+ wounding. The same unit can also pull Marbo on that CCS with your OotF as soon as any of your Valks/Vendettas turns up. Add in a Res Orb Lord, and that unit will survive unless your opponent rolls very badly.


++End Devil's Advocation++

I don't understand what you mean exactly. Deathmarks are nasty but I don't see them often and they have never tried to show up in my deployment zone. Can they even take a Res Orb Lord and if so, why would you suicide them near my CCS? Its not like they can pen my CCS Chimera.

Hmmm.

After a bit of number crunching:

On average, a hydra will get about 1 penetrating hit against an AV11 flyier, regardless of speed.

A Basilisk has a little better then a 1/3 chance of getting a pen, at any speed.

4 missile launchers (long fangs) have about the same chance of getting a pen as the Basilisk, if the flyer went at top speed.

While not amazing, shooting at flyer's isn't the Bassie's normal job. Of course the bassie can target the Flyier even if it was for some reason out of LOS. And the odds shift in the favor of the Basalisk as the AV of the target goes up.

Did you include the ordnance roll two dice and pick the highest? We don't know if that rule will be in the new edition but if it does appear it will help artillery to kill fliers.

I didn't include that no.

Mostly because I like my maths like I like my women, nice and simple.

I play a hybrid list of a blob gunline with autocannons and sometimes power weapons, a HWS squad or two, a Hydra, Manticore and then a couple of Chimera Vets and at higher points levels I will throw in a LRBT and Vendetta.

From what i've read here it seems I wont have to change much.

The only thing that worries me is that snipers can pick out commissars. What is the actual rule for this? Is it only when snipers roll a 6 they get to allocate the wound? Or all the time?
Regardless, any ideas what could negate this?

From what i've read, the snapfire rule will make flamers within a blob-gunline extremely handy (possibly essential?) at countering assaults. D3 hits per flamer? Sounds good.

One thing that strikes me is that It seems artillery just got a whole lot better with ordnance blasts now being full strength even when only partially covered by a template.
I am thinking Manticores will become one of the core long-range AT units. Infact Basilisks could probably do a great job too (mulirole) with AP2 and LRBT battlecannon at AP3 suddenly has become a multi-tasking weapon (can feth up vehicles and MEQ infantry).

Why is everyone saying flyers are going to be amazing? What is the thinking behind that? And for that matter why is the Hydra suddenly so much better?

@JB, true but a Res Orblord with a warscythe will

The hydra has the rule that allows it do ignore the cover saved gained from fast skimmers moving fast out. It is assumed it will have the AA rule that allows it to fire at regular bs instead of needing 6's to hit. That is because it is an AA tank...

I see the basilisk as getting a bump, as well as the manticore. Although it would depend how how/f the vehicle squadron rules have changed.

I know I will be looking for a few changes to my guard. RR's just gained +2 in CC with no negative, at least thats what has been said. That makes Mogul Kamir looking pretty good right about now.

Next is allies. Guard can now bring dedicated CC units that will be amazing with their long range fire. Termies, Assault Marines, etc. All great choices.

Guard will also be a very keen ally. Providing lots of scoring units and great access to crazy good vehicles. As well as the potential for orders to be used in other armies.

Last, the Tech priest. If he can repair D3 structure points AND the faq that he can repair vehicles he is in still stands he s going to be amazing. As well as the fact that he is the cheapest and with 4 HQ's in 2K games you can take 4.

I think the fear of snipers is overblown. First of all, very few armies have them: GK, Eldar, IG, SM, and Necrons. The GK have only the Vindicare Assassin and he already had the ability to call his shots. How many times have you faced one? every GK army that I've seen has not blown points on assassins.

The Eldar, IG, and SM have ordinary sniper rifles. They hit on BS, wound on 4+, and have AP6. So the snipers have to roll to hit, get a 6 in order to call the shot, have a 50% chance to wound, and then the Commissar gets a 50% chance to pass the wound on to an ordinary trooper. If that fails, the Commissar still has a 33% chance to make his armor save.

The ordinary sniper rifle has a 36" range and is Heavy 1. If he moves the unit of snipers to get a commissar within range, then he will have to Snap Fire at BS1 that turn.

Necron Deathmarks have only a 24" range. They still only wound on a 4+ but they will nullify the armor save. if they nominated the Commissar's unit as their special target then they wound on a 2+. That is powerful but they still have to get roll a 6 to hit in order to get the called shot. Then the Commissar still has a 50% chance to push the wound off to another model in his unit. Frankly, given Deathmarks high price, short range, and low utility against most models, I would be very surprised to see a unit of them in play.

Bottom line is that snipers aren't going to cripple blobs by killing off commissars on a regular basis. It's a low yield gimmick tactic that most players will avoid because snipers are not much good for most battles. Maybe you will see it happen more in friendly games where your opponent tools to play against your army. If so, buy two commissars for each blob and keep one at the rear of your blob as far from enemy snipers as possible. Block him from view with a vehicle or terrain. In sixth edition, you can't kill what you can't see.

JB, Tau also have snipers. Although I don't know if they will get the rule that lets them pick who they shoot at because they aren't like traditional snipers.

Are there any armies (besides guard) that sniping a specific model could cause them to crumble. Tau with ethereal maybe? Because I might consider adding my ratlings back into my list.

jwhitehead333 wrote:JB, Tau also have snipers. Although I don't know if they will get the rule that lets them pick who they shoot at because they aren't like traditional snipers.

Are there any armies (besides guard) that sniping a specific model could cause them to crumble. Tau with ethereal maybe? Because I might consider adding my ratlings back into my list.

Yes, Tau have sniper drones but, as you pointed out, their rail rifles don't have the sniper rule.

I don't think you will ever see a Tau Etheral unless someone is just feeling fluffy or wants to get the Rage USR for part of his army.

I thought about adding snipers and ruled out Ratlings because of their low LD and since I don't use a Lord Commissar or Yarrick. I may run 2-4 snipers in one of my PCS just to make my opponents nervous. I believe that fear of snipers killing models will be far more potent than what they actually accomplish on the tabletop. Most worthwhile targets have Invuln and armor saves, multiple wounds, and that Look Out Sir roll. The one exception might be Ork special weapons and Dark Eldar Haemonculi. The latter have 2-3 wounds but are not otherwise durable. as ICs you might get a kill point for them, just don't expect much in-game advantage from killing them because they will probably have fulfilled their Pain Token donating function before you can kill them.

I guess you might try sniping Jokaero for fun if your opponent uses them.

I haven't been able to read much about the rumors on cover saves and vehicles, but from what I do know wouldn't it be quite nice to take a Big Mek with KFF to sit in your parking lot and bubble wrap your guardsmen with a unit of ork boyz, possibly a Deff Dread with 2 scorchas? Granted it only gives you a 5+, pending actual rules and FAQs, but a 5+ save against everything could keep your tanks alive longer even more so when you consider adding in Tech Priests.

JB wrote:Yes, Tau have sniper drones but, as you pointed out, their rail rifles don't have the sniper rule.

I don't think you will ever see a Tau Etheral unless someone is just feeling fluffy or wants to get the Rage USR for part of his army.

I thought about adding snipers and ruled out Ratlings because of their low LD and since I don't use a Lord Commissar or Yarrick. I may run 2-4 snipers in one of my PCS just to make my opponents nervous. I believe that fear of snipers killing models will be far more potent than what they actually accomplish on the tabletop. Most worthwhile targets have Invuln and armor saves, multiple wounds, and that Look Out Sir roll. The one exception might be Ork special weapons and Dark Eldar Haemonculi. The latter have 2-3 wounds but are not otherwise durable. as ICs you might get a kill point for them, just don't expect much in-game advantage from killing them because they will probably have fulfilled their Pain Token donating function before you can kill them.

I guess you might try sniping Jokaero for fun if your opponent uses them.

My friend who plays tau has been trying a new build using two ethereals and two bodyguard squads. Those squads are quite scary. Taking two ethereals means that if one dies, he gets the bonus but because all his other units are within line of site of his other ethereal, they get the reroll on the leadership test and don't run. Snipers could be good against this particular build.

Otherwise i agree with you, most armies won't actually have much to worry about.

Where is the rule that allows commissars 'look out, argh'? Is it a new 6th ed rule? or did i miss it somewhere in the guard codex?

I have a special weapon squad in my army with snipers. At only 50 points for the squad, I think they will be very useful at keeping certain areas of the table clear due to the fear factor of maybe having your most important model in a squad being picked off before he's had a chance to do anything. I know there's only a slight chance of it happening, but that's all you need

edbradders wrote:I have a special weapon squad in my army with snipers. At only 50 points for the squad, I think they will be very useful at keeping certain areas of the table clear due to the fear factor of maybe having your most important model in a squad being picked off before he's had a chance to do anything. I know there's only a slight chance of it happening, but that's all you need

You could also get 5 ratlings for 50pts. They have better BS, 5 of them have snipers rather then 3 and a +1 to any cover saves. I think I would prefer ratlings over a SWS.

Nothing. I'm not going to change a thing. I play guard and use the units I do purely for the fun of it. Even in tournaments. I've even won a couple just by throwing everyone off so badbly they couldn't compensate.

Can you move run then snapfire?

Well, if the rumours are indeed true about wound allocation from shooting, assault blob guard will be very, very nerfed. Saddening, especially considering I invested in A LOT of all Mordian Iron Guard for the express purpose of fielding three assault blobs and support. Oh well, I'll likely just flesh out the mechanized portion of my Guard. Invest in some Hydras, Manticores, and some Vendettas.