Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

PhantomViper wrote:
In what planet do you live in?

Real life is anything BUT fair! If a kid is gay, name calling is the least form of adversity that he will have to deal with while growing up.

You people seem to live in some fantasy land where everything is rosy and perfect and everyone is nice to each other... Guess what? When you become an adult you will get beaten, robbed, lied to, stealed from, back stabbed and will generally have a whole lot of very unfair stuff happen to you. Better that you learn to deal with it when its just a big dumb jock trying to take your lunch money and calling you names.

What planet do you live on?

I have never been beaten, robbed, stolen from or stabbed in the back.
I have been lied to, but who hasn't.

hotsauceman1 wrote:Ok how about this then? not everyone has the emotional resources to deal with bullying, some many have parents or teachers that cant help them deal with. even if its the father that teaches them boxing or such many today do not have the resources.
Also wwe have defined bullying

bul·ly 1 (bl)
n. pl. bul·lies
1. A person who is habitually cruel or overbearing, especially to smaller or weaker people.
2. A hired ruffian; a thug.
3. A pimp.
4. Archaic A fine person.
5. Archaic A sweetheart.
v. bul·lied, bul·ly·ing, bul·lies
v.tr.
1. To treat in an overbearing or intimidating manner. See Synonyms at intimidate.
2. To make (one's way) aggressively.v.intr.
1. To behave like a bully.
2. To force one's way aggressively or by intimidation: "They bully into line at the gas pump" (Martin Gottfried).
adj.
Excellent; splendid: did a bully job of persuading the members.
interj.
Used to express approval: Bully for you!

Your definition is too broad (see bold). Thats a substantial amount of human behavior. You can't stop that.

I'll ask again. What specific behavior are you looking to control?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dæl wrote:
I have never been beaten, robbed, stolen from or stabbed in the back.

try harder?

Ok, how about we control threats, insults and actualy physical violence?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Just because life isnt fair now doesnt mean we should strive to make it, Isnt that why we have a democracy? Fairness and everyone is equal?
People somehow think that How it is=how it should be.

PhantomViper wrote:

hotsauceman1 wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:Why is it undesirable?

"Bullying" (in my opinion there is no such thing), prepares children for adult life.

Trying to eliminate these social interactions between children will just help to reinforce the "reward everything, even failure" society that we live in!

So making a kid who is gay feel horrible enough to kill himself is good?
Also newsflash, a teens brain isnt the same as an adults brain, many times they cant think past the moment.
And no it would reinforce that idea, it would make things fair.

In what planet do you live in?

Real life is anything BUT fair! If a kid is gay, name calling is the least form of adversity that he will have to deal with while growing up.

You people seem to live in some fantasy land where everything is rosy and perfect and everyone is nice to each other... Guess what? When you become an adult you will get beaten, robbed, lied to, stealed from, back stabbed and will generally have a whole lot of very unfair stuff happen to you. Better that you learn to deal with it when its just a big dumb jock trying to take your lunch money and calling you names.

You should move.

We can make it better though, that's the point. but to sit back and let these bullies go through life being bullies with no consequences is rewarding bad behavior. Bullies need to be suspended or expelled, and the parents sued. But its funny how all the pro bullies think its up to the victim to stand up for himself and never mention that bullying should have consequences.

AGain define bully. If you think harsh words stops at high school, I have a bridge to sell you.

Frazzled wrote:AGain define bully. If you think harsh words stops at high school, I have a bridge to sell you.

The same way you define sexual harassment, If you feel harassed, then you were. If you feel bullied, then you were.

This is how I think it should work:
someone accuses a kid of bullying him.
parents of both kids, the teacher, and a counselor meet to get to the bottom of it.
Appropriate punishment assigned.

Trimming the quote trees, apologies if somethig is lost.

PhantomViper wrote:We are pack animals. We are constantly fighting with each other to "reach the top of the food chain" as it were and this starts as children with the so called "bullying" and progresses through our entire adult life. Its human nature and it will never disappear.

You are kidding yourself if you think that how you dealt with bullies in your childhood doesn't affect the way you deal with adversity and competition in your adult life / career, even if in an unconscious way.

I was always a smallish child and a smart one to booth. I was also always a prime target for bullies and I learned to deal with them, most "normal" children do. And that IS one of the lessons that bullying is supposed to teach a child, that sometimes she has to deal with these problems herself. The most a parent can do is give her the "tools" to do so.

I have repeatedly said that I am aware it will never disappear. What I have argued is that bullying is not something we, as a society, should find acceptable. I have also found that outside of the interwebs, bulling does not continue to adult life, at least, not nearly at the level of a bunch of hormonal and emotionally unbalanced teenagers forced to be together. I can choose who to be around, children in schools do not have that luxury.

Frazzled wrote:Who's saying bullying isn't horrible? It can be.
Its also life, unless you want to live in some PC thought control gulag. Thats the only way you can stop it, but even then you can't stop it.

Schools, like everywhere should be free from physical assault or threat thereof. Everything else...put on your big girl panties and just deal with it.

Saying its the bullying is not the only factor. Again no one said its good. Its just life.

In case no one ever told you...life sucks, then you die.

Schools should be free of physical assault or threat thereof, but let's be honest: they aren't. Bullying, both physical and emotional, happens all the time on school grounds and no one does anything about it. Why should emotional bullying be any different from physical? Just because you can't see the damage done?

Again, I'm not talking about two kids who get into a spat and have it out. I'm not talking about people making a couple off hand ugly comments.

I am talking about the systematic and continual abuse, whether physical or emotional, that some students or groups will heap onto another student or group. This gak is not accepted as adults, why on earth should we accept it when it happens to children?

PhantomViper wrote:No, I'm not blaming the kid. And I understand the whole "seemed able to handle it, until he killed himself" scenario allot better than you could ever imagine, but if bullying led to suicides there would be thousands of cases every year. Heck, we are all nerds in this forum (apart from mattyrm apparently), that means that ALL of us have been bullied during our school years, and we are all still here!

Like I said, bullying can be the catalyst, but the underlying cause to the suicide is always something else.

Firstly, I have no idea what you've been through and vice-versa, so throwing out lines like you "understand the whole "seemed able to handle it, until he killed himself" scenario allot better than [I]could ever imagine" is pointless and beyond arrogance.

As to the number of suicides, I can only link you to one of numerous studies out there. Salient points:

The statistics on bullying and suicide are alarming:

•Suicide is the third leading cause of death among young people, resulting in about 4,400 deaths per year, according to the CDC. For every suicide among young people, there are at least 100 suicide attempts. Over 14 percent of high school students have considered suicide, and almost 7 percent have attempted it.
•Bully victims are between 2 to 9 times more likely to consider suicide than non-victims, according to studies by Yale University
•A study in Britain found that at least half of suicides among young people are related to bullying
•10 to 14 year old girls may be at even higher risk for suicide, according to the study above
•According to statistics reported by ABC News, nearly 30 percent of students are either bullies or victims of bullying, and 160,000 kids stay home from school every day because of fear of bullying

PhantomViper wrote:In what planet do you live in?

Real life is anything BUT fair! If a kid is gay, name calling is the least form of adversity that he will have to deal with while growing up.

You people seem to live in some fantasy land where everything is rosy and perfect and everyone is nice to each other... Guess what? When you become an adult you will get beaten, robbed, lied to, stealed from, back stabbed and will generally have a whole lot of very unfair stuff happen to you. Better that you learn to deal with it when its just a big dumb jock trying to take your lunch money and calling you names.

And you seem to live in some fantasy world where every jibe turns into some emotional scar tissue, making everyone tougher and tougher, where reality shows that those scars make people more and more fragile.

sirlynchmob wrote:You should move.

We can make it better though, that's the point. but to sit back and let these bullies go through life being bullies with no consequences is rewarding bad behavior. Bullies need to be suspended or expelled, and the parents sued. But its funny how all the pro bullies think its up to the victim to stand up for himself and never mention that bullying should have consequences.

Also, this. When you tell the bullied kid "put on your big boy pants" but don't do gak to the guy causing the trouble, you're basically just part of the problem.

sirlynchmob wrote:

Frazzled wrote:AGain define bully. If you think harsh words stops at high school, I have a bridge to sell you.

The same way you define sexual harassment, If you feel harassed, then you were. If you feel bullied, then you were.

This is how I think it should work:
someone accuses a kid of bullying him.
parents of both kids, the teacher, and a counselor meet to get to the bottom of it.
Appropriate punishment assigned.

Frazzled response. School sued. Teacher sued. Parents accusing my child sued for defamation.

Next time try something approaching fairness.

As a kid, I was bullied quite badly, thrown into urinals, in front of a car, jumped and assaulted in various ways. The last case went to court as I required surgery from someone who assaulted me and had bullied me for 4 years. Most had stopped it after I fought back but not this one kid. I still get angry thinking about that incident that happened 6 years ago. Standing up doesn't always work.

As an adult, the types of bullying and abuse change. Fiscal and industrial abuse all occur and can affect anyone. An example that ended earlier this year, 'my boss' used to hit me round the back of the head, sort of like Gibbs in NCIS. I ended up leaving in February due to this, which had been going on for a while. I left because I was on the verge of getting physical to a whole other level. So I felt best to leave before I done something stupid, (I am around 7 inches taller and a good 50kg heavier than this guy yet it still happened). The jokes and stuff I can normally brush off no problem, but the hitting I did not see as a easy thing to ignore.

All this bullying taught me not to keep my feelings bottled up and talk to people before something happened, as it has in the past. For that I am glad, but if I hadn't have been bullied in the first place then this wouldn't have happened. It has also damaged my social skills and I have problems trusting people now as well as being quick to anger. It has not prepared me for adult life, I do at times struggle.

I fully agree with at least two people in this thread. Bullying is good. If you as a child are bothered by people mistreating you, you are weak and do not know how to live in the "real world", as they call it. Children who can't deal with being surrounded by people who all seek to cause them unhappiness should do themselves and everyone else a favour and kill themselves.

And since people on Dakka don't understand sarcasm.... whatever.

Frazzled wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

Frazzled wrote:AGain define bully. If you think harsh words stops at high school, I have a bridge to sell you.

The same way you define sexual harassment, If you feel harassed, then you were. If you feel bullied, then you were.

This is how I think it should work:
someone accuses a kid of bullying him.
parents of both kids, the teacher, and a counselor meet to get to the bottom of it.
Appropriate punishment assigned.

Frazzled response. School sued. Teacher sued. Parents accusing my child sued for defamation.

Next time try something approaching fairness.

if the school did as I suggest, then the results would go:
school, lawsuit dismissed
teacher, lawsuit dismissed
Parents of abused child, awarded much money
You, lawsuit dismissed, pay all court fee's.

So how are you defining "Fair?" I don't think your using it the right way.

sirlynchmob wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

Frazzled wrote:AGain define bully. If you think harsh words stops at high school, I have a bridge to sell you.

The same way you define sexual harassment, If you feel harassed, then you were. If you feel bullied, then you were.

This is how I think it should work:
someone accuses a kid of bullying him.
parents of both kids, the teacher, and a counselor meet to get to the bottom of it.
Appropriate punishment assigned.

Frazzled response. School sued. Teacher sued. Parents accusing my child sued for defamation.

Next time try something approaching fairness.

if the school did as I suggest, then the results would go:
school, lawsuit dismissed
teacher, lawsuit dismissed
Parents of abused child, awarded much money
You, lawsuit dismissed, pay all court fee's.

So how are you defining "Fair?" I don't think your using it the right way.

You don't know much about the law do you boy?

Frazzled wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

Frazzled wrote:AGain define bully. If you think harsh words stops at high school, I have a bridge to sell you.

The same way you define sexual harassment, If you feel harassed, then you were. If you feel bullied, then you were.

This is how I think it should work:
someone accuses a kid of bullying him.
parents of both kids, the teacher, and a counselor meet to get to the bottom of it.
Appropriate punishment assigned.

Frazzled response. School sued. Teacher sued. Parents accusing my child sued for defamation.

Next time try something approaching fairness.

if the school did as I suggest, then the results would go:
school, lawsuit dismissed
teacher, lawsuit dismissed
Parents of abused child, awarded much money
You, lawsuit dismissed, pay all court fee's.

So how are you defining "Fair?" I don't think your using it the right way.

You don't know much about the law do you boy?

Sure I do sonny. I lived in Cali for 20 years, I've seen some of the greatest lawsuits ever. That is why schools now take action on bullies, they don't want to get sued. If reported and the school does nothing, then it loses and pays. Which really just means if its in your area, you pay. Your taxes at work and all.

If I sue you because your son bullied my son, and you counter sue. then one wins and one loses. If its in court odds are I've already won and we're just figuring out the amount I'm going to get. Now it might be different in texas, but in cali the loser pays all the court fees, and my lawyers bill.

So sue for defamation because your kid might be a bully?
D you realise how stupid that sounds?

hotsauceman1 wrote:So sue for defamation because your kid might be a bully?
D you realise how stupid that sounds?

No I'm hitting them with a SLAPP suit for threatening my kid based on some sort of half assed nonfinding in your PC court.
Whats fun is what happens to your kid when my kid finds him later...:O



Automatically Appended Next Post:

sirlynchmob wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

Frazzled wrote:AGain define bully. If you think harsh words stops at high school, I have a bridge to sell you.

The same way you define sexual harassment, If you feel harassed, then you were. If you feel bullied, then you were.

This is how I think it should work:
someone accuses a kid of bullying him.
parents of both kids, the teacher, and a counselor meet to get to the bottom of it.
Appropriate punishment assigned.

Frazzled response. School sued. Teacher sued. Parents accusing my child sued for defamation.

Next time try something approaching fairness.

if the school did as I suggest, then the results would go:
school, lawsuit dismissed
teacher, lawsuit dismissed
Parents of abused child, awarded much money
You, lawsuit dismissed, pay all court fee's.

So how are you defining "Fair?" I don't think your using it the right way.

You don't know much about the law do you boy?

Sure I do sonny. I lived in Cali for 20 years, I've seen some of the greatest lawsuits ever. That is why schools now take action on bullies, they don't want to get sued. If reported and the school does nothing, then it loses and pays. Which really just means if its in your area, you pay. Your taxes at work and all.

If I sue you because your son bullied my son, and you counter sue. then one wins and one loses. If its in court odds are I've already won and we're just figuring out the amount I'm going to get. Now it might be different in texas, but in cali the loser pays all the court fees, and my lawyers bill.

I win against the school because your standard is no standard. I also win because the threat is enough to stop them cold.

Wait you're claiming California has style loser pays in practice?

California already lags well behind Texas, and most other states, when it comes to legal climate. California is ranked the fifth-worst among the states, according to the Institute for Legal Reform, an affiliate of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. The institute found that frivolous or abusive lawsuits contribute to unemployment. A survey of 1,482 corporate attorneys and executives found 67 percent who said a state's litigation environment is likely to impact important business decisions at their company, such as where to locate or expand their businesses.
Moreover, California recently was declared the nation's second-worst "judicial hellhole" by the American Tort Reform Association, based on that business group's assessment of civil court excesses. "California has a history of wacky consumer class actions that further encourages plaintiffs' lawyers to seize on minor missteps as a means to lots of cash," the association said. Despite a voter-passed initiative in 2004 to curb excesses, "it remains big business for certain California plaintiffs' lawyers."

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/california-282101-texas-pays.html


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But enough of that. You still haven't defined what bullying is.

We're all agreed violence or the threat of violence should be dealt with, harshly.

Thats nothing to da wimminz though. Their best bullying is exclusion, or caddy talking about each other. Ist das verbotten under your new regeme? How are you going to enforce that?

What if the moment they leave the school grounds the entire school forms a giant circle around said student and just laughs?

EDIT: Don't pin me down as being in favor of bullying. I am not, nor would I tolerate it in my kids, nor against my kids (as the neighbor and school found out on separate occasions).
But your standard being proposed is pretty much "if they don't love me and welcome me with open arms they are bullies and must be punished!"
Hardly.

First, I forgot to add "I would" at the end of that sentence, so it should have read: "And I understand the whole "seemed able to handle it, until he killed himself" scenario allot better than you could ever imagine I would" (In the sense that I'm not making any assumption of your understanding of the problem but that I possess some as well).

While I'm considerably proud of my skill with the English language, it is not my first language so I will not always turn the best phrase. Don't assume that I'm always trying to offend you when the sentence could also be explained by a lack of grammatical proficiency, shall we say...

streamdragon wrote:
I have repeatedly said that I am aware it will never disappear. What I have argued is that bullying is not something we, as a society, should find acceptable. I have also found that outside of the interwebs, bulling does not continue to adult life, at least, not nearly at the level of a bunch of hormonal and emotionally unbalanced teenagers forced to be together. I can choose who to be around, children in schools do not have that luxury.

Society doesn't find bullying acceptable, what society generally understands is that kids aren't bound by the same societarial (is that even a word?) constraints as adults do, it is also the reason why, baring some extreme exceptions, kids aren't criminally responsible for their actions. The behaviour that society deems as bullying is normal human behaviour, adults have learned to repress it, children don't have the maturity for it.

That is also the reason why you still find it on the internet btw, normal societarial constraints usually break down on the internet because of the anonymity that it affords...

And if you agree that bullying will never disappear, and that obviously schools have limited resources to deal with such a thing, shouldn't those resources be better directed towards identifying and providing help to the children that are more emotionally susceptible to it instead of squandering it on a "lets eradicate bullying" campaign that by its very nature is doomed to failure?

streamdragon wrote:
Schools should be free of physical assault or threat thereof, but let's be honest: they aren't. Bullying, both physical and emotional, happens all the time on school grounds and no one does anything about it. Why should emotional bullying be any different from physical? Just because you can't see the damage done?

Again, I'm not talking about two kids who get into a spat and have it out. I'm not talking about people making a couple off hand ugly comments.

I am talking about the systematic and continual abuse, whether physical or emotional, that some students or groups will heap onto another student or group. This gak is not accepted as adults, why on earth should we accept it when it happens to children?

Physical bullying is the easy one to identify and stop and I think everyone agrees that schools should be free of such things.

But then we enter the slippery slope of "emotional bullying". What is that? Is it being constantly called a derogatory term like "nerd" or "weird" or "[see forum posting rules]"? Is it never being chosen to take part in a sports team? Is it when no one wants to talk to you because of some perceived fault by your peers? Is it having all the girls refuse to be your date for the prom because you are butt ugly? And how can you possibly hope to change that kind of behaviour by children or teenagers?

streamdragon wrote:
As to the number of suicides, I can only link you to one of numerous studies out there. Salient points:

The statistics on bullying and suicide are alarming:

•Suicide is the third leading cause of death among young people, resulting in about 4,400 deaths per year, according to the CDC. For every suicide among young people, there are at least 100 suicide attempts. Over 14 percent of high school students have considered suicide, and almost 7 percent have attempted it.
•Bully victims are between 2 to 9 times more likely to consider suicide than non-victims, according to studies by Yale University
•A study in Britain found that at least half of suicides among young people are related to bullying
•10 to 14 year old girls may be at even higher risk for suicide, according to the study above
•According to statistics reported by ABC News, nearly 30 percent of students are either bullies or victims of bullying, and 160,000 kids stay home from school every day because of fear of bullying

That site is understandably bias and those statistics don't match the link given in the same article...

http://www.familyfirstaid.org/suicide.html

Teen suicide was the 3rd leading cause of death among young adults and adolescents 15 to 24 years of age, following unintentional injuries and homicide. The rate was 9.9/100,000 or .01%.

The adolescent suicide rate among youth ages 10-14 was 1.3/100,000 or 272 deaths among 20,910,440 children in this age group. The gender ratio for this age group was 3:1 (males: females).

The teen suicide rate among youth aged 15-19 was 7.9/100,000 or 1,611 deaths among 20,271,312 teenagers in this age group. The gender ratio for teenage group was 5:1 (males: females).

Attempted Teenage Suicides
No annual national data on all attempted teenage suicides are available.
Other research indicates that:
There are an estimated 8-25 attempted suicides for each teen suicide death; the ratio is higher in women and youth and lower in men and the elderly.
More women than men report a history of attempted suicide, with a gender ratio of 3:1.
Four out of five teens who attempt suicide have given clear warnings.

Nowhere on that site even refers that bullying is even a cause for those suicides! Instead the signs that the sites warns to are:

Pay attention to these teen suicide warning signs:
Suicide threats, direct and indirect
Teen depression
Obsession with death
Poems, essays and drawings that refer to death
Dramatic change in personality or appearance
Irrational, bizarre behavior
Overwhelming sense of guilt, shame or reflection
Changed eating or sleeping patterns
Severe drop in school performance
Giving away belongings

And again, I'll reiterate my position on this subject: while bullying might be a catalyst, it will not be the real cause for those suicides.

Frazzled wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
The same way you define sexual harassment, If you feel harassed, then you were. If you feel bullied, then you were.

I win against the school because your standard is no standard. I also win because the threat is enough to stop them cold.

Frazzled wrote:

But enough of that. You still haven't defined what bullying is.

We're all agreed violence or the threat of violence should be dealt with, harshly.

Thats nothing to da wimminz though. Their best bullying is exclusion, or caddy talking about each other. Ist das verbotten under your new regeme? How are you going to enforce that?

What if the moment they leave the school grounds the entire school forms a giant circle around said student and just laughs?

EDIT: Don't pin me down as being in favor of bullying. I am not, nor would I tolerate it in my kids, nor against my kids (as the neighbor and school found out on separate occasions).
But your standard being proposed is pretty much "if they don't love me and welcome me with open arms they are bullies and must be punished!"
Hardly.

See I already defined bullying, and its the same as the way courts handle cases of sexual harassment. You even quoted my definition. Where did I even set a standard or start a regime?
and finishing our hypothetical situation, odds are if its in court, i can prove you kid was being a bully. and as we'd both be set to sue the school their testimonies would be part of my evidence and we'd win. so you can counter sue all you'd like, but it wouldn't help you any.

You've got some nice Reductio ad absurdum there though.


/edit, fixed quotes.

sirlynchmob wrote:
See I already defined bullying, and its the same as the way courts handle cases of sexual harassment. You even quoted my definition. Where did I even set a standard or start a regime?

***Thats now how sexual harassment laws work generally. "Feeling like" doesn't cut it. PLus the actual language is via legislation and enforced by the EEOC.

and finishing our hypothetical situation, odds are if its in court, i can prove you kid was being a bully.

***Good luck with that. My attorney will be better than yours, and I'll bleed you for years. I know, I've done it.

and as we'd both be set to sue the school their testimonies would be part of my evidence and we'd win. so you can counter sue all you'd like, but it wouldn't help you any.

***Again good luck with that. The school will likely already have settled which will put all that testimony away nicely.

You've got some nice Reductio ad absurdum there though.

***Mmm Latin. Most of the time its prima facae evidence of bs. The trick is to figure when it isn't, wouldn't you agree?

Frazzled wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
See I already defined bullying, and its the same as the way courts handle cases of sexual harassment. You even quoted my definition. Where did I even set a standard or start a regime?

***Thats now how sexual harassment laws work generally. "Feeling like" doesn't cut it. PLus the actual language is via legislation and enforced by the EEOC.

and finishing our hypothetical situation, odds are if its in court, i can prove you kid was being a bully.

***Good luck with that. My attorney will be better than yours, and I'll bleed you for years. I know, I've done it.

and as we'd both be set to sue the school their testimonies would be part of my evidence and we'd win. so you can counter sue all you'd like, but it wouldn't help you any.

***Again good luck with that. The school will likely already have settled which will put all that testimony away nicely.

You've got some nice Reductio ad absurdum there though.

***Mmm Latin. Most of the time its prima facae evidence of bs. The trick is to figure when it isn't, wouldn't you agree?

Feelings, nothing more than feelings.

"Interpretation of the harassment law strongly favors the victim and almost any "victim" can get a harassment order against any person who continues to contact him/her even in the mildest and most unobtrusive way. Legal defense against a harassment order is usually fruitless, as the general sentiment is that if the "victim" finds you offensive, then you are. The "victim" is required to show a pattern of conduct, but it only takes a couple of incidents to prove the pattern to the court, and the pattern only needs to show that the "victim" did not want contact."

If your lawyer was that good he'd tell you to settle. Its just amazing that you think your kid is free to bully other kids and neither you nor your kid should face any consequences for that. But as its all hypothetical anyways, if your kid bullies mine, I'd just shoot your dog and call it even

Its amazing that
1. You want that standard in public schools
2. You think anyone would vote for it.
3. You think it would pass constitutional muster (reminder the 1964 Civil Rights Act is based on Amendments to the Constitution)
4. You're conflating harassment with sexual harassment.
5. You're trying to get the organs of government involved.

In short you're espousing a standard that lacks sanity when pressed into a school environment.

You're right. You have to have lived in California.

I'm, I'm.... honestly lost for words with some of the responses in this thread. Yes, I can say from first hand experience that bullying does toughen one up for the "real world", it affects you dramatically. For example I still have trouble looking people in the eye when talking to them, people have to really well and truly be in my "circle of trust" before I'll open up to them, esp. with women (yes, I was picked on by girls at one time. Yeah, I'll admit it).

The schools do nothing to protect you. Whilst I am aware of this whole "B.A Star" thing in the states or whatever it is, it kindof seems a bit too... schmaltzy for what it is. The messages of "like everyone and show tolerance and respect" don't really mix. I tolerate a baby crying in a restaurant, I don't have to like it.

Same goes for bullies. I can honestly say hand on heart I would actually dance on some of the people's graves who picked on me were they to die tomorrow. I feel no remorse for them just like they felt no remorse for me. I've had stuff chucked at my head, A guy who ran around knocking on my head like a door (I hope you die you fether). People spread a rumour around the school I was gay, which everyone believed, thus no-one wants to be your girlfriend, you have no idea how much this can affect someone. (feth you). The list goes on. It affects you on a level that people who have never been bullied fail to understand.

Sure, I hardened me, but in a way to not truly trust anyone and have to make my own way in this world. Rant over (for now).

Frazzled wrote:Its amazing that
1. You want that standard in public schools
2. You think anyone would vote for it.
3. You think it would pass constitutional muster (reminder the 1964 Civil Rights Act is based on Amendments to the Constitution)
4. You're conflating harassment with sexual harassment.
5. You're trying to get the organs of government involved.

In short you're espousing a standard that lacks sanity when pressed into a school environment.

You're right. You have to have lived in California.

1. yes
2. no votes, you will do it or suffer the consequences. Your state is already pushing to get what I posted enacted in all schools.
http://www.equalitytexas.org/content.aspx?id=439

3. its already a legal definition backed by numerous court cases.
4. harassment is harassment. bullying is harassment
5. I never said the government should be involved, that's your hysteria kicking in.


so hey look at that, your state agrees with me

Its amazing that you think we should live in the past and not work to ensure our kids have a place where they can go to school to learn in a non hostile environment. So again, why do you think bullies should be allowed to harass anyone they please without consequences? Why do you only think the victim is at fault in bullying cases?

If you get beaten up and robbed as an adult, they are criminal offences. If you are beaten up and stolen from in school, it's not right to sweep it away as just 'bullying' that will toughen you up. What the feth? It may not be appropriate to prosecute, but you don't treat it like some kind of character building exercise kids have to endure. We have a duty to protect children in our care in schools. If people appreciated the harm caused by bullying upon children they wouldn't be dismissive. It can make lives hell and affect them for years.

Also for people saying anything less than physical abuse isn't to be taken seriously, name calling and rumour spreading, particularly when done relentlessly also messes people up, kids or adults. When you are an adult it's called 'harassment' and can also add up to criminal offences particularly with racial or sexual connotations. So why are people so keen to treat kids differently again? You don't ignore this gak and you don't reward the bully by effectively blaming the victim or treating it as something kids just have to endure.

Grimtuff wrote:I'm, I'm.... honestly lost for words with some of the responses in this thread. Yes, I can say from first hand experience that bullying does toughen one up for the "real world", it affects you dramatically. For example I still have trouble looking people in the eye when talking to them, people have to really well and truly be in my "circle of trust" before I'll open up to them, esp. with women (yes, I was picked on by girls at one time. Yeah, I'll admit it).

The schools do nothing to protect you. Whilst I am aware of this whole "B.A Star" thing in the states or whatever it is, it kindof seems a bit too... schmaltzy for what it is. The messages of "like everyone and show tolerance and respect" don't really mix. I tolerate a baby crying in a restaurant, I don't have to like it.

Same goes for bullies. I can honestly say hand on heart I would actually dance on some of the people's graves who picked on me were they to die tomorrow. I feel no remorse for them just like they felt no remorse for me. I've had stuff chucked at my head, A guy who ran around knocking on my head like a door (I hope you die you fether). People spread a rumour around the school I was gay, which everyone believed, thus no-one wants to be your girlfriend, you have no idea how much this can affect someone. (feth you). The list goes on. It affects you on a level that people who have never been bullied fail to understand.

Sure, I hardened me, but in a way to not truly trust anyone and have to make my own way in this world. Rant over (for now).

Especially when your friends turn into bullies. It hardens you, but not in the "Shrug off the offhand fat comment" in the "Cant trust anyone and think that any compliment is false" way

The strong do what they will.
The weak suffer what they must.
Welcome to humanity!

Bullying is bad.
Some kids commit suicide because of it.
Its fine when it is only one kid. that is bullying. Because that is easier to deal with. (hopefully)
But a whole bunch of people doing it to one kid, really messes kids up.
Because they start to blame themselves because of it. It happens and it should be stopped when seen.
Really matters on the kid that is being bullied.
I use to be bullied but then I learned I was better than all of them, so I just ignored them.

hotsauceman1 wrote:

Grimtuff wrote:I'm, I'm.... honestly lost for words with some of the responses in this thread. Yes, I can say from first hand experience that bullying does toughen one up for the "real world", it affects you dramatically. For example I still have trouble looking people in the eye when talking to them, people have to really well and truly be in my "circle of trust" before I'll open up to them, esp. with women (yes, I was picked on by girls at one time. Yeah, I'll admit it).

The schools do nothing to protect you. Whilst I am aware of this whole "B.A Star" thing in the states or whatever it is, it kindof seems a bit too... schmaltzy for what it is. The messages of "like everyone and show tolerance and respect" don't really mix. I tolerate a baby crying in a restaurant, I don't have to like it.

Same goes for bullies. I can honestly say hand on heart I would actually dance on some of the people's graves who picked on me were they to die tomorrow. I feel no remorse for them just like they felt no remorse for me. I've had stuff chucked at my head, A guy who ran around knocking on my head like a door (I hope you die you fether). People spread a rumour around the school I was gay, which everyone believed, thus no-one wants to be your girlfriend, you have no idea how much this can affect someone. (feth you). The list goes on. It affects you on a level that people who have never been bullied fail to understand.

Sure, I hardened me, but in a way to not truly trust anyone and have to make my own way in this world. Rant over (for now).

Especially when your friends turn into bullies. It hardens you, but not in the "Shrug off the offhand fat comment" in the "Cant trust anyone and think that any compliment is false" way

Oh God yes! That too. I in all honestly need some kind of sincerity detector sometimes. Now, I really do not know how to take a compliment, at work I shrug it off as a "yeah whatever", which makes me come across as a bit aloof, even when I'm not. It just makes you unable to register when people really like you.

Grimtuff wrote:

hotsauceman1 wrote:

Grimtuff wrote:I'm, I'm.... honestly lost for words with some of the responses in this thread. Yes, I can say from first hand experience that bullying does toughen one up for the "real world", it affects you dramatically. For example I still have trouble looking people in the eye when talking to them, people have to really well and truly be in my "circle of trust" before I'll open up to them, esp. with women (yes, I was picked on by girls at one time. Yeah, I'll admit it).

The schools do nothing to protect you. Whilst I am aware of this whole "B.A Star" thing in the states or whatever it is, it kindof seems a bit too... schmaltzy for what it is. The messages of "like everyone and show tolerance and respect" don't really mix. I tolerate a baby crying in a restaurant, I don't have to like it.

Same goes for bullies. I can honestly say hand on heart I would actually dance on some of the people's graves who picked on me were they to die tomorrow. I feel no remorse for them just like they felt no remorse for me. I've had stuff chucked at my head, A guy who ran around knocking on my head like a door (I hope you die you fether). People spread a rumour around the school I was gay, which everyone believed, thus no-one wants to be your girlfriend, you have no idea how much this can affect someone. (feth you). The list goes on. It affects you on a level that people who have never been bullied fail to understand.

Sure, I hardened me, but in a way to not truly trust anyone and have to make my own way in this world. Rant over (for now).

Especially when your friends turn into bullies. It hardens you, but not in the "Shrug off the offhand fat comment" in the "Cant trust anyone and think that any compliment is false" way

Oh God yes! That too. I in all honestly need some kind of sincerity detector sometimes. Now, I really do not know how to take a compliment, at work I shrug it off as a "yeah whatever", which makes me come across as a bit aloof, even when I'm not. It just makes you unable to register when people really like you.

Agreed. You can't trust anyone but then you find something that changes you. Then your life becomes a wreak.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Howard A Treesong wrote:If you get beaten up and robbed as an adult, they are criminal offences. If you are beaten up and stolen from in school, it's not right to sweep it away as just 'bullying' that will toughen you up. What the feth? It may not be appropriate to prosecute, but you don't treat it like some kind of character building exercise kids have to endure. We have a duty to protect children in our care in schools. If people appreciated the harm caused by bullying upon children they wouldn't be dismissive. It can make lives hell and affect them for years.

Also for people saying anything less than physical abuse isn't to be taken seriously, name calling and rumour spreading, particularly when done relentlessly also messes people up, kids or adults. When you are an adult it's called 'harassment' and can also add up to criminal offences particularly with racial or sexual connotations. So why are people so keen to treat kids differently again? You don't ignore this gak and you don't reward the bully by effectively blaming the victim or treating it as something kids just have to endure.

Howard I must give you the royal thumbs up because I agree with you completely.

Grimtuff wrote:I'm, I'm.... honestly lost for words with some of the responses in this thread. Yes, I can say from first hand experience that bullying does toughen one up for the "real world", it affects you dramatically. For example I still have trouble looking people in the eye when talking to them, people have to really well and truly be in my "circle of trust" before I'll open up to them, esp. with women (yes, I was picked on by girls at one time. Yeah, I'll admit it).

The schools do nothing to protect you. Whilst I am aware of this whole "B.A Star" thing in the states or whatever it is, it kindof seems a bit too... schmaltzy for what it is. The messages of "like everyone and show tolerance and respect" don't really mix. I tolerate a baby crying in a restaurant, I don't have to like it.

Same goes for bullies. I can honestly say hand on heart I would actually dance on some of the people's graves who picked on me were they to die tomorrow. I feel no remorse for them just like they felt no remorse for me. I've had stuff chucked at my head, A guy who ran around knocking on my head like a door (I hope you die you fether). People spread a rumour around the school I was gay, which everyone believed, thus no-one wants to be your girlfriend, you have no idea how much this can affect someone. (feth you). The list goes on. It affects you on a level that people who have never been bullied fail to understand.

Sure, I hardened me, but in a way to not truly trust anyone and have to make my own way in this world. Rant over (for now).

I never said it was good, just said it was life. Most things in life aren't good.

Frazzled wrote:AGain define bully. If you think harsh words stops at high school, I have a bridge to sell you.

Exactly, just wait till you get in the work force or god forbid their thin skin gets in the military.