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pretre wrote:You can't run and assault.

When I say, "When it's a turn to assault you use the new assault rules which fleet lets you re-roll" I should of defined it better to say, "During a turn in which you want to assault you would not run but use the new assault rules which fleet lets you re-roll."

I just assumed everyone was going on the ideal that run has never allowed you to run and assault. My point being that its not like hormagaunts and genestealers will only be moving 6 inches a turn instead of 6+d6. So its not incredibly slower.

OK this is for everyone who think tyranids should not get allies


WRONG

The genestealer cults would allow for IG allies, that and the dark eldar mind controlled a whole bunch. so I think those two should be able to be taken as allies, or vice versa. i cite the dark eldar codex and codex tyranids.

Thrawn2600 wrote:OK this is for everyone who think tyranids should not get allies


WRONG

The genestealer cults would allow for IG allies, that and the dark eldar mind controlled a whole bunch. so I think those two should be able to be taken as allies, or vice versa. i cite the dark eldar codex and codex tyranids.

^ This ^

I think I'm going to ally my nids with some IG anyways, I'm sure the guys at my flgs will be cool with it.

it is, of course, your hobby and you can do whatever you want with it. However, Tyranid fluff is very clear on what happens to Genestealer cults when the Hive Fleet arrives. When the Shadow in the Warp is close enough, it dominates the Brood mind of the Patriarch and its progeney, and marches them straight into the digestion pools or landing brood ships. Genestealer cults sow discord and terror until the actual invasion begins, but after that they are just lunch.

Of course, the fluff has evolved over the years, and they barely even dwell on them in 5th ed. But the 4th edition books mentioned them frequently and what happens to the cult when the fleet arrives.

Its a shame you cannot ally with your own race to gain more force org slots

If Moronic Nonsense agrees with you is he undermining your cause?

well yes i believe we can make a comeback, a few of the new psychic powers are brillant and really do help our army, as well as the new way psychic hoods work (only a 12" bubble that improves deny the witch i believe) and is only for powers that target squads so powers like catalyst aren't getting block as much (although space wolves still do have the 24" bubble to note)
BTW i thought i would put our FAQ here just incase ):http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420321a_Tyranid_6th_Ed_V1.pdf =)

I think that nids have an instant improvement in several categories. First our monstrous creatures. They now have fear, hammer of wrath, smash, and a couple have new psychic abilities. We also have flying MC, I'm personally not sure of their effectiveness so i guess we will see there. They also get a cover save at being covered 25%. I think most if not all missions start with night fight. so thats a little closing distance. Now the reserve armies took hit so i guess suck it up and adapt. You can still pod in from what i understand. Now lets move to little things. Gaunts are honestly now the gak. Not having to make fearless saves did everything for these guys. Hormagaunts the same applies and they have the best run in the game with leaping bound. I know people are complaining about fleeting and running but nothing really changed. We still move 6 and can run D6 re-rolling if we have fleet, now if we wanna charge don't run but charging distance is now 2d6 and with fleet we can re-roll one, none, or all so if you roll a 6 and a 1 keep the 6 and then re roll the other. we can also premeasure things so we will know what we need in advanced. Gargoyles also got a little better. They get that extra attack with hammer of wrath and can re roll charge distance also. Anything with a +2 save is a little better now that power weapons can't cut through you, this goes for hive tyrants and tyrannofex. I know there used to be a lot of complaints that we needs more shooting to take out vehicles. I don't think vehicles will be quite as plentiful this edition now that they can be alot easier to hit. The last thing that i feel will be fun is the double force organization chart at 2000+ points. So we can have 18 Zoans, 18 Hive Guards, a mix of those, 6 Trygons, 4 flyrants, 18 fexes, or my favorite 10 Tervigons.

HiveFleet wrote:it is, of course, your hobby and you can do whatever you want with it. However, Tyranid fluff is very clear on what happens to Genestealer cults when the Hive Fleet arrives. When the Shadow in the Warp is close enough, it dominates the Brood mind of the Patriarch and its progeney, and marches them straight into the digestion pools or landing brood ships. Genestealer cults sow discord and terror until the actual invasion begins, but after that they are just lunch.

Of course, the fluff has evolved over the years, and they barely even dwell on them in 5th ed. But the 4th edition books mentioned them frequently and what happens to the cult when the fleet arrives.

Its a shame you cannot ally with your own race to gain more force org slots

What they could do is allow IG to ally with tyranids, but they are only allowed to take genestealers and can ignore the mandatory HQ. That would pretty accurately represent a genestealer cult that is still active due to the absence of a hive fleet. Maybe if we're really lucky genestealer cults will get a white dwarf codex giving them a patriarch as a HQ but only allowing them to be an IG detachment and not a full army.

Bugs mostly got nerfed hard. I had a competitive army in 5th; I see no viable options to replicate that success in 6th. The new vehicle rules make them harder to kill with most of our troops, not easier. We have nothing to deal with the flier spam that everyone else is so excited about. Our MC's mostly got nerfed hard, now being almost certainly unable to kill vehicles in a round of combat, something that they could all reliably do before. The Carnifex will still be ok for that, but still also not likely to survive long enough to do it. Smash is no even trade for losing 2d6 pen; in pretty much all cases it lowers the probability for success enormously because we have half as many attacks and our strength is capped at 10.

Devilgaunt spam is promising, IF the enemy gets out of their vehicles and doesn't nerf their shooting with psi and doesn't just blow the very weak gaunts away.

Genestealers just took it hard. Their total charge range average actually decreased, from a flat 13-18 (average 15.5") to a nasty 7-18" bell curve with an average of 14". They can no longer assault on outflanking, so you no longer have any deterrent to opponents gunlining in corners.

Maybe Ymgarl can still assault from reserve, I am not clear on that point. Still, that is the slot that HG and thropes are in. They don't get poison, and unit size is capped at 10 with no Broodlord.

All shooting troops are going to kill enough bugs with overwatch that I will bet a third of declared charges just fail outright. You must move up to within 4" of the enemy to have confidence of your charge reaching the enemy after overwatch. There will be a few lucky instances of units you didn't think were going to make it getting in, but they will be the exceptions, and costly ones since betting on a 10" charge will mean you just get an extra round of shooting against your troops without actually engaging over 80% of the time. Every enemy unit will have a flamer or two or four to make sure the front bug ranks are dead.

We are losing 4+ cover saves and FNP from Tervigons.

Gargoyles got a lot better. They are one of the very few bright points for the new edition. Winged HT's likewise are better, though the MC nerfs will still hurt a lot for taking out vehicles.

We've got nothing for effectively dealing with flyers, which are the most boosted unit in the game now. Everyone is a atitter over big flyer armies.

Now, what we will get is great new psychic options. Most bugs will not want to give up their very useful powers for the new cards, but broodlords are very inexpensive and their psychic power isn't going to be particularly relevant considering their very low likelihood of survival to charge. So load up on brood lords to try to get useful psychic powers!

18 Hive Guard and Zoanthropes is lame, but probably our best bet. It should be noted that enemy bikes are no longer instagibbed by S8, so that is going to hurt a lot too.

Raveners might be a little better now, getting good charges and movement and +2 attacks when feeding. Still going to be instagibbed a lot.

It's been mentioned that flying MC's and basically everything in the Nid dex with wings will count as flyers, AFAIK

Meaning that you'll need 6's to hit them (at range, unsure about melee) without intercept/skyfire USRs. That signifcantly improves what
were some of our dex's least favored units. It also makes the near mandatory Flyrant a serious force to be
reckoned with!

Somwhat disapointed that the Swarmlord is our only tiered pysker, but eh. The nids should be able to field more
than many armies, anyway!

While the flanking genestealer bomb has been nulled, so has other armie's flankers, too. Not much of a consultation,
but there it is. The prefered enemy buff makes the Hive Tyrant/Swarmlord very enticing and without a doubt improves
our shooty bits!

Also, lashwhips got a bump up, negating most int modifiers again (including 'shee masks!); still doesn't work on//for
sweeping advances, though.

Harpies are now are our army's go-to for smashing into units in cover; they totally ignore cover's int bonus and still halves
int for the rest of our guys!

Bloody Adair wrote:It's been mentioned that flying MC's and basically everything in the Nid dex with wings will count as flyers, AFAIK

FAQ; Wings: Add the following sentence, "Hive Tyrants with the Wings biomorpth are Flying Monstrous Creatures". So by my count we only have the Winged Tyrand and Harpys as flyers. Will be fun to use gargoyles now that they have Hammer of wrath thought. How does hammer of wrath work with toxin sacs btw? After reading the rule, it would seem that you have to use the gargoyles strenght...

TMC counts as flyers and can start a game in gliding mode.

imagine you get the 1st turn, you have 2 TL Dev. swoops at 24" within 18" range, 12A TL 6s AP- . hmmmm

Don't only think about we gotta change but also what they gotta change.

- Light transport vehicles are now easier for our little bugs to kill so i see less vehicles now

- KP aren't that big of an issue so we can split our squads more

- The fact that we don't have to take fearless saves is huge for our swarms.... I think this is our game changer.

We haven't gotten worse or better yet we just changed a bunch. We will have to change our tactics. All good army commander can adjust.

I'm not sure why you think it is easier for us to take down light vehicles. The odds of a penetration haven't changed for our weapons. The odds of a penetration killing the vehicle outright are halved. The glances do no damage, so no more preventing movement or firing or ripping off weapons. Yes, 3 glances kill them, but we have very few weapons that can glance an armor 11 or 12 front anyway - most of those that can have a better chance of pen anyway.

A Tfex used to have a good chance of crippling or destroying a light vehicle across the table each time it fired. Now it has very little chance. The Heavy Venom Cannon has zero chance, it will never roll a 6 on the damage table. Those were our two weapons that could reach out and touch a vehicle on the first turn, especially those the other player hid in the corner or on the edge.

And we have nothing with a decent chance of dropping a flyer until it gets close to us.

pretre wrote:

Deadman Walking wrote:Winged warriors with bone swords should be sweet with them striking at initiative 10.

They get one normal attack (without special weapon abilities) at I10. They don't 'strike at Initiative 10'.

This is incorrect, you don't use any special close combat weapons during Hammer of Wrath (you don't use their weapon profile), but we don't use close combat weapons anyways. All of our "close combat weapons" confer special rules to all our close combat attacks.

"No armour saves may be taken against wounds inflicted in close combat by a Tyranid with a Bonesword."(pg.83)

Boneswords do not have a weapon profile to be replaced by Hammer of Wrath. All that is required is that A) A wound is inflicted in close combat, and B) The Tyranid has a Bonesword.

On an interesting note, There is no more "remove whole models if possible" rule in regards to multi-wound models, so provided you have a Tyranid Prime attached to something and is the front most model (and successfully Look out Sir!), you can spread wounds as you please. Not that great against battle cannons and other pie plates, but our t4 units got stronger vs small arms and Carnifexes just got potentially a LOT tougher to take down against Lascannons and krak.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Also, we may be looking forward to a new codex. Nids are second to the codex marines for updates. Hopefully, we get carnifexes worth the time and trouble!

Carnifex units with Twin-Linked Devourers are very much worth your time and trouble. Not only will they make a joke out of any vehicle, but they still are good in combat. They are a fantastic unit for only 190 each in my opinion.

Light vehicles are much softer now, hull points means glancing a vehicle to death is now much easier.

Challenges are a huge boost for nids, allowing 'nid MCs to 'snipe' power fists out of squads, either by killing them in one on one combat or making them sit out the fight.

Flyers are only a marginal problem, higher Volume of fire at s5-s7 will do it, sure it takes 6's to hit, but it only takes any 2 damage results to knock them out of the air. Twin link.

Psyker Powers... Biomancy is insanely good for nids. +d3 str/Toug... yes please.

And holy crap, double force org at 2000 points? 10 Tervigons anyone?

junk wrote:Light vehicles are much softer now, hull points means glancing a vehicle to death is now much easier.

Challenges are a huge boost for nids, allowing 'nid MCs to 'snipe' power fists out of squads, either by killing them in one on one combat or making them sit out the fight.

Flyers are only a marginal problem, higher Volume of fire at s5-s7 will do it, sure it takes 6's to hit, but it only takes any 2 damage results to knock them out of the air. Twin link.

Psyker Powers... Biomancy is insanely good for nids. +d3 str/Toug... yes please.

And holy crap, double force org at 2000 points? 10 Tervigons anyone?

Don't be surprised when a lot of people won't play a double FoC game with you. It's just silly and only exacerbates balance/spam/mix-max problems.

pretre wrote:

Deadman Walking wrote:Winged warriors with bone swords should be sweet with them striking at initiative 10.

They get one normal attack (without special weapon abilities) at I10. They don't 'strike at Initiative 10'.

It never says they don't get the bonuses from special abilities, just that you don't get strength modification or AP, happily boneswords don't actually have an AP as they are not power weapons, they just ignore armour, which means they can jump in, get a very nice first strike and still get to attack with the rest of their attacks.

It definitely causes spam problems (the funniest of which is suicide wolves with 6 lone wolves), but it also unlocks an armies real potential.

Tangental, but Necrons have an amazing Fast Attack slot, and thanks to double force org you can run tomb blades, wraiths, destroyers, and scarabs in the same army.

The same goes for Nids, you no longer need to decide between Zoanthropes and Hive Guard, you can fill up your army with the units you want.

lord_bobbington wrote:

pretre wrote:

Deadman Walking wrote:Winged warriors with bone swords should be sweet with them striking at initiative 10.

They get one normal attack (without special weapon abilities) at I10. They don't 'strike at Initiative 10'.

It never says they don't get the bonuses from special abilities, just that you don't get strength modification or AP, happily boneswords don't actually have an AP as they are not power weapons, they just ignore armour, which means they can jump in, get a very nice first strike and still get to attack with the rest of their attacks.

I get the feeling they'll FAQ this, but for now that's just evil...

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

lord_bobbington wrote:

pretre wrote:

Deadman Walking wrote:Winged warriors with bone swords should be sweet with them striking at initiative 10.

They get one normal attack (without special weapon abilities) at I10. They don't 'strike at Initiative 10'.

It never says they don't get the bonuses from special abilities, just that you don't get strength modification or AP, happily boneswords don't actually have an AP as they are not power weapons, they just ignore armour, which means they can jump in, get a very nice first strike and still get to attack with the rest of their attacks.

I get the feeling they'll FAQ this, but for now that's just evil...

Oh yes, the Tyranids might not get allies, but for the most part there are a lot of nice things for them this codex (barring oversights like broodlord BS). For instance very nice psychic defence with deny the witch and SiTW

Mysticdog wrote:Bugs mostly got nerfed hard. I had a competitive army in 5th; I see no viable options to replicate that success in 6th. The new vehicle rules make them harder to kill with most of our troops, not easier. We have nothing to deal with the flier spam that everyone else is so excited about. Our MC's mostly got nerfed hard, now being almost certainly unable to kill vehicles in a round of combat, something that they could all reliably do before. The Carnifex will still be ok for that, but still also not likely to survive long enough to do it. Smash is no even trade for losing 2d6 pen; in pretty much all cases it lowers the probability for success enormously because we have half as many attacks and our strength is capped at 10.

We no longer hit vehicles on 6s in CC and combined with hull points means your standard Ar10 rear tanks are super vulnerable to all of our S4+ units (a 10 man stealer unit should on average cause 3 glances to a moving rhino, a non smashing trygon with glands should get 2-3 glances min with decent shot at AP2 pen). We lose a bit of CC ability against land raiders, but hull points means its less likely they will hang around till end game (and even if they do they don't contest so I am not super concerned).

Also wrecking transports means the contents cannot assault on their turn. That is huge for bugs against mech since we no longer just get shot and charged by the contents like before.

If 2d6 pen had been retained by MCs it woulda been silly wen we hit on 3's with all the rerolls available to us. I don't mind the change, it rebalances our codex internally, giving carnifexes a needed boost against their fellows.

Genestealers just took it hard. Their total charge range average actually decreased, from a flat 13-18 (average 15.5") to a nasty 7-18" bell curve with an average of 14". They can no longer assault on outflanking, so you no longer have any deterrent to opponents gunlining in corners.

Stealers also have got back a bit of their 4ed edge in CC due to how pile ins work. That of course has some issues due to still going at I1 due to terrain but its a start. The fact that our army has more tendency to wreck vehciles rather then explode helps this a bit. I agree though many of the changes to reserves hurt tyranids and stealers in particular. Overall I think stealers are probably the unit in our codex hurt the most by the new rules. I still think they have a purpose but I think the days of 60 stealers zerging the enemy are behind us.

Maybe Ymgarl can still assault from reserve, I am not clear on that point. Still, that is the slot that HG and thropes are in. They don't get poison, and unit size is capped at 10 with no Broodlord.

They can still assault, it is crystal clear. And frankly mech spam will get less and less so more then two hive guard units seems excessive. The new reserve rules also boost ymgarls a great deal. They can also get T5 verses overwatch which is nice. Frankly for their purposes they don't need poison and I wouldn't add it to them with their cost.

All shooting troops are going to kill enough bugs with overwatch that I will bet a third of declared charges just fail outright. You must move up to within 4" of the enemy to have confidence of your charge reaching the enemy after overwatch. There will be a few lucky instances of units you didn't think were going to make it getting in, but they will be the exceptions, and costly ones since betting on a 10" charge will mean you just get an extra round of shooting against your troops without actually engaging over 80% of the time. Every enemy unit will have a flamer or two or four to make sure the front bug ranks are dead.

That's why you declare your charge first with some crap unit like gants. If they Overwatch em then they can't do so against the stealers or whatever. If they connect then they still can't overwatch the followup unit cause they are locked in combat (this point I am not 100% sure on at this point though, still making sure).

We are losing 4+ cover saves and FNP from Tervigons.

We are losing some 4+ cover. Ruins still provide it. Our MCs can also get cover by just touching area terrain and obscuring our MCs by 25% is not too hard compared to 50%.. FnP changes I think is better for nidzilla, a wash for stealers and worse for little bugs. Catalyst doesn't have to worry about hoods anymore.

Winged HT's likewise are better, though the MC nerfs will still hurt a lot for taking out vehicles.

Tyrants are amazing now. And I don't mean flying ones (I think taking them out of the sky on hits makes them a bit unviable for the points). The foot ones get the boost to 2+ armor and they can take a 2+ look out sir with tyrant guard. Old advesary boosts our BS3 shooters to nearly BS4 stats (hello tyrannofex). The new psychic charts are way better despite being random and worth the gamble in my opinion. I'll take all that at the cost of a nerfing to our antitank considering 6ed meta is bound to shift away from tanks.

We've got nothing for effectively dealing with flyers, which are the most boosted unit in the game now. Everyone is a atitter over big flyer armies.

This is true. We have a few low probability options but no hard counters. Old advesary hive guard and brainleech is about as close as we get, vector strikes also and maybe some luck from psychic power choices (some trickery via puppet master or mechanicum one for example)

Now, what we will get is great new psychic options. Most bugs will not want to give up their very useful powers for the new cards, but broodlords are very inexpensive and their psychic power isn't going to be particularly relevant considering their very low likelihood of survival to charge. So load up on brood lords to try to get useful psychic powers!

Brood lords are also BS0 so there is that. But I think I'd always roll on the chart with a hive tyrant. Tervigon spam I'd take some rolls but probably otherwise keep catalyst. Zoanthropes I'd consider it based on opponent, to be honest I think zoanthrope stock powers are bad in 6ed and there's just some really great buffs in the psychic charts that are worth gambling for.

18 Hive Guard and Zoanthropes is lame, but probably our best bet. It should be noted that enemy bikes are no longer instagibbed by S8, so that is going to hurt a lot too.

Its not 5ed. I can't see bothering with that much anti-tank.

Raveners might be a little better now, getting good charges and movement and +2 attacks when feeding. Still going to be instagibbed a lot.

They can get into upper levels of ruins, that alone is a nice boost. Ignoring terrain all together is pretty big. Being multiwound will help a bit with charge distance and overwatch. I like them, just not the new cost per box at the store.

Overall I think tyranids are looking better in the new edition. We have better counters to some of our issues from 5ed (psycher MCs gets a 5+ deny witch against jaws, vehicle spam is nowhere near as strong now, no longer do armies tank shock objectives for the win). As always actual builds will have to change somewhat to account for the new rules and meta but right now I am pretty optimistic.