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This is to settle the axe of morkai discusion.

It states in its rules that if used one handed, it swings as a frost blade and if two handed as a power fist.

It doesnt matter how its modeled.

If it stated that if swung as a frost weapon, there might be an issue on how its modeled.

imweasel wrote:This is to settle the axe of morkai discusion.

It states in its rules that if used one handed, it swings as a frost blade and if two handed as a power fist.

It doesnt matter how its modeled.

If it stated that if swung as a frost weapon, there might be an issue on how its modeled.

Nice reading skills there, chief. The Axe Morkai has not been brought up at all in this discussion.

I couldve sworn it was brought up.

Please continue.

Axe Mortalis states it is a Master crafted power weapon.
Since it says axe......and it has an official GW model, WITH AN AXE, It is a master crafted power axe that is unwieldy.
Not sure why this one is confusing, it is what it is.

Executioners axe states it's a two handed power weapon, then has special rules. Again, not sure why this is in question, but it's an axe, so it's AP 2, but since it's special it does not have the unwieldy rule. (The fixed S6 makes it special, the fact that it's an axe makes it AP 2) Basic power axes are unwieldy, special ones have their own rules. That's why they are special. It doesn't change the fact that it's a power axe that is AP 2. If it was unwieldy they would have put that in the FAQ, just like the blood crozius.

The glaive states it is a master crafted two handed power weapon. That's it. You can choose what to make it. They didn't leave it ambiguous because they forgot, it can be used as you wish, it's written clear as day on the page. If it's a power weapon with no special rules then it can be what you want it to be. (And no, master crafted and two handed are not special rules)

EDIT: put the wrong item in paragraph 2

sfshilo wrote:Axe Mortalis states it is a Master crafted power weapon.
Since it says axe......and it has an official GW model, WITH AN AXE, It is a master crafted power axe that is unwieldy.
Not sure why this one is confusing, it is what it is.

Executioners axe states it's a two handed power weapon, then has special rules. Again, not sure why this is in question, but it's an axe, so it's AP 2, but since it's special it does not have the unwieldy rule. (The fixed S6 makes it special, the fact that it's an axe makes it AP 2) Basic power axes are unwieldy, special ones have their own rules. That's why they are special. It doesn't change the fact that it's a power axe that is AP 2. If it was unwieldy they would have put that in the FAQ, just like the blood crozius.

The glaive states it is a master crafted two handed power weapon. That's it. You can choose what to make it. They didn't leave it ambiguous because they forgot, it can be used as you wish, it's written clear as day on the page. If it's a power weapon with no special rules then it can be what you want it to be. (And no, master crafted and two handed are not special rules)

EDIT: put the wrong item in paragraph 2

Are master-crafted and two-handed not listed in the special rules section?

Ok so lets clear this up.
"SPECIAL" is not the wording in the book. UNUSUAL is the proper word here.

Special is no where mentioned in the power weapon section. EDIT: it is, wtf GW?

If there are unique rules then it follows those rules as well as what is laid out in that section, says so right under the unique weapon paragraph.

Lets get away from "special" as that is not anywhere in that section.

EDIT: aw crap, well this is confusing as hell. lol this is confusing. I would just say if it's an axe it's an axe, if it's a power weapon, it's what you want it to be. Otherwise it's really wierd.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That word "special" has to be a typo, they should have stated "unique" and this would be easy to put to rest.

sfshilo wrote:Ok so lets clear this up.
"SPECIAL" is not the wording in the book. UNUSUAL is the proper word here.

Special is no where mentioned in the power weapon section. EDIT: it is, wtf GW?

If there are unique rules then it follows those rules as well as what is laid out in that section, says so right under the unique weapon paragraph.

Lets get away from "special" as that is not anywhere in that section.

EDIT: aw crap, well this is confusing as hell. lol this is confusing. I would just say if it's an axe it's an axe, if it's a power weapon, it's what you want it to be. Otherwise it's really wierd.

And it further muddies the waters because a basic power axe/sword, or any other basic power weapon does not have a special rule making them master crafted (their special rules are listed as melee, concussive, unwieldy, etc.) Thus, a weapon that is listed in its basic profile on a special character as "master-crafted" could be considered "unique" because, it is unique to that model/unit. The Axe Mortalis could be (and most likely is) a master-crafted power axe, but because it has a rule unique to it (master-crafted) it is ambiguous as to whether it's just a power axe or considered a unique power weapon striking at AP 3.

I believe at my table we will be using the Axe Mortalis and Executioner's Axe as power axes with unwieldy (because if it's a power axe that special rule is included...you can't just choose what special rules to ignore if a weapon is something, it has those basic special rules attached to it) along with their other special rules that come along with them. SG will be whatever is modeled and will additionally have the two-handed special rule. Seems the simplest route until (and if) GW clears it up in the FAQ.

sfshilo wrote:Axe Mortalis states it is a Master crafted power weapon.
Since it says axe......and it has an official GW model, WITH AN AXE, It is a master crafted power axe that is unwieldy.
Not sure why this one is confusing, it is what it is.

Executioners axe states it's a two handed power weapon, then has special rules. Again, not sure why this is in question, but it's an axe, so it's AP 2, but since it's special it does not have the unwieldy rule. (The fixed S6 makes it special, the fact that it's an axe makes it AP 2) Basic power axes are unwieldy, special ones have their own rules. That's why they are special. It doesn't change the fact that it's a power axe that is AP 2. If it was unwieldy they would have put that in the FAQ, just like the blood crozius.

The glaive states it is a master crafted two handed power weapon. That's it. You can choose what to make it. They didn't leave it ambiguous because they forgot, it can be used as you wish, it's written clear as day on the page. If it's a power weapon with no special rules then it can be what you want it to be. (And no, master crafted and two handed are not special rules)

EDIT: put the wrong item in paragraph 2

By default are power weapons master-crafted? No. Therefore a master-crafted power weapon is unique among power weapons and is ap3.

Axe of Mortalis is an ap3, mastercrafted.
BA glaives are ap3, mastercrafted.

Yeah I still think it's a typo/oversight on their part, but AP 3 it is.
I'm all for a blood angels nerf I guess lol.

sfshilo wrote:Yeah I still think it's a typo/oversight on their part, but AP 3 it is.
I'm all for a blood angels nerf I guess lol.

That's not really a nerf IMO though. The nerf is making it a power axe that is unwieldy and basically bending Dante's init. 6 over a barrel completely. I'll take the AP 3 any day to get to swing at init 6 step.

robzidious wrote:

sfshilo wrote:Yeah I still think it's a typo/oversight on their part, but AP 3 it is.
I'm all for a blood angels nerf I guess lol.

That's not really a nerf IMO though. The nerf is making it a power axe that is unwieldy and basically bending Dante's init. 6 over a barrel completely. I'll take the AP 3 any day to get to swing at init 6 step.

The problem is, Master crafted is listed in the main book. It's not a special weapon, it's a weapon with the master crafted property. Some examples of Unusual power weapons would be Ork Burnas, Relic Blades, heck even the Executioner's Axe mentioned in this thread is a special weapon because it has unusual properties. Like I said earlier in the thread, if you want Dante to strike at I6 kitbash yourself a Dante with sword, instead of using the stock GW model.

Lone Dragoon wrote:

robzidious wrote:

sfshilo wrote:Yeah I still think it's a typo/oversight on their part, but AP 3 it is.
I'm all for a blood angels nerf I guess lol.

That's not really a nerf IMO though. The nerf is making it a power axe that is unwieldy and basically bending Dante's init. 6 over a barrel completely. I'll take the AP 3 any day to get to swing at init 6 step.

The problem is, Master crafted is listed in the main book. It's not a special weapon, it's a weapon with the master crafted property. Some examples of Unusual power weapons would be Ork Burnas, Relic Blades, heck even the Executioner's Axe mentioned in this thread is a special weapon because it has unusual properties. Like I said earlier in the thread, if you want Dante to strike at I6 kitbash yourself a Dante with sword, instead of using the stock GW model.

No one should have to pay for a model then spend additional money to kitbash something to get the full effect of its value. Just my opinion.

But again, at my table, we'll be treating it as a power axe with unwieldy until GW amends it...if they ever do.

Mike Leon wrote:

imweasel wrote:This is to settle the axe of morkai discusion.

It states in its rules that if used one handed, it swings as a frost blade and if two handed as a power fist.

It doesnt matter how its modeled.

If it stated that if swung as a frost weapon, there might be an issue on how its modeled.

Nice reading skills there, chief. The Axe Morkai has not been brought up at all in this discussion.

Actually, it has. Perhaps you should look up the name of Logan's weapon?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Ramses wrote:

robzidious wrote:Well, Executioner's Axe is most definitely a unique power weapon. Two-handed axe that strikes at str 6 and causes invuln saves to be re-rolled. It has its own unique close-combat rules and should not suffer from unwieldy.

Glaive Encarmines are the same. It's a two-handed master-crafted power weapon. Really though it's not much different than saying it's a power sword because they are both AP 3 anyway.

Axe Mortalis I would consider to have its own unique rules as well because it is master-crafted, thus it's an AP 3 power weapon wielded at user str and does not suffer from unwieldy.

I mean, the rule seems quite clear to me. pg 61 "Many models have unusual power weapons that have one or more unique rules. If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP 3 melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry.

Seems pretty clear to me. These weapons all have unique rules (power axes aren't all master crafted). These weapons are unique to the characters, and I believe that is the intent.

This exactly.

This has been going on with Logan's Axe of Morkai where people are saying because it is modeled as an axe and named as an axe, you somehow disregard the specific wording of the rule that calls it a frost blade.

In the case of BA, they are all unusual power weapons that have one or more unique rules. The fact that it could be master crafted, str 9000, or bedazzled with Twilight movie quotes makes them fall under the AP3 classification for unusual power weapons.

See?

Heh, I came across this yesterday after flicking through 6th Ed. I'd be inclined to believe Axe Mortalis is just treated as a master-crafted Power Axe, since it doesn't have any unique rules (like say... Astorath's Executioner Axe or Kheradruakh's Decapitator). Having said that, I also see where the other side is coming from; it's just not outlined well enough.

Damn shame though, I feel Dante is even less useful now. If I'm honest, I don't see the point in Power Axes at all! Strike at I1 for AP2 and a +1 Str bonus? Aside from the very small points difference, why would anyone use a Power Axe over a Power Fist?

Time to cut off all the Power Axes in my BA and replace them with Power Swords

Meanwhile Mephiston now has the chance to roll a psychic power with a 4+ Inv? God help me.

You get +1A from pistols with Axes as its not a specilist weapon.

Grey Templar wrote:You get +1A from pistols with Axes as its not a specilist weapon.

Hadn't thought of that; honestly still don't think it makes them viable though. I just don't think +1S AP2 is enough to justify striking last...

10 points cheaper then PFs. Thats enough for a Combi-weapon.

Neith wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:You get +1A from pistols with Axes as its not a specilist weapon.

Hadn't thought of that; honestly still don't think it makes them viable though. I just don't think +1S AP2 is enough to justify striking last...

Certainly not when you're paying 200+ points for a model with an init of 6 to strike last in the combat.

But in general, I agree as well. I'll take the powerfist over a power axe. At least that doubles the str. Power axe does you not much good if you aren't alive when the time comes to use it, or worse yet, aren' tin b2b anymore.

Lone Dragoon wrote:

robzidious wrote:

sfshilo wrote:Yeah I still think it's a typo/oversight on their part, but AP 3 it is.
I'm all for a blood angels nerf I guess lol.

That's not really a nerf IMO though. The nerf is making it a power axe that is unwieldy and basically bending Dante's init. 6 over a barrel completely. I'll take the AP 3 any day to get to swing at init 6 step.

The problem is, Master crafted is listed in the main book. It's not a special weapon, it's a weapon with the master crafted property. Some examples of Unusual power weapons would be Ork Burnas, Relic Blades, heck even the Executioner's Axe mentioned in this thread is a special weapon because it has unusual properties. Like I said earlier in the thread, if you want Dante to strike at I6 kitbash yourself a Dante with sword, instead of using the stock GW model.

I will post the same question I have to others attacking the validity of master-crafted,

Do power weapons come maste-crafted by default?

This really comes down to two parts of the power weapon rules.

Part 1
Premise 1

If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has: (weapon descriptions here)

This seems pretty clear, you only look at the model for guidance if its a plain power weapon with no special rules.

Premise 2
Master Crafted and two handed are in the special rules section and are thus clearly defined as special rules

Conclusion
A power weapon with master crafted and or two-handed cannot use the 'look at the model' rules for determining what sort of power weapon it has.

However...
Part 2

If a model has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics.

Unfortunately the Unusual Weapon section switches terms on us and muddies the waters. We are left to decide what constitutes unique close combat rules. Unique to 40k? Unique to the Codex? Unique to Power Weapons? Is unique and special synonymous?

If we assume Part 1 is correct we are left with two options with Axe Mortalis and Blades Encarmine:
1) Treat power weapons with special rules as Unusual Power Weapons and thuse AP3 Melee weapons
2) Not treat them as such and have no way of knowing how to treat them, since they are specifically disallowed from being Axes, Swords, Mauls or Lances.

Use kharn as an example. Gorechild (his axe) is in no way a common weapon, it has 2 or 3 unique special rules yet it has been ruled to be a power axe.

I would consider a Unique rule to be anything that is not a weapon USR,

Master Crafted is a USR

Two Handed is a USR

I'm a nice person, so i'll say that anything that they write out in full is NOT a USR, so if something has rerolls to wound, it is not Shred, if it has 2d6 penetration, it is not Armourbane,

But Glaives and The Axe Mortalis are actually IDENTICAL in rules. They are not unusual.

edit If you had a model that you paid to upgrade to a Master Crafted Power Weapon, would that make it Unusual?

dionysus wrote:Use kharn as an example. Gorechild (his axe) is in no way a common weapon, it has 2 or 3 unique special rules yet it has been ruled to be a power axe.

The difference here is that gorechild has been specifically changed by the FAQ to be a power axe with special rules.

Kiredor: it is not a weapon with unique rules; it is a weapon with one or more special rues.

Kel, that was my point

Unusual Power Weapons require UNIQUE rules, not just special rules.

A master crafted power axe is not the same as a regular power axe, yes.

But it does not have UNIQUE rules, and therefore is not unusual.

edit - Rereading the rules, I can see where the issue is.

A master crafted power axe is neither a power axe, nor is it an Unusual Power Weapon...

Because it has special rules, it is no longer a regular power axe.

However as it has no Unique rules (Universal Rules are by definition not Unique), it is not a Unusual Power Weapon either.

Hrm.... now im confused too

No, yeah you are correct it is unique rules; I totally Agree with Dante 's Axe has Unwieldy(and all other Power Axe rules/stats).

But the FAQ for Gorechild is still a Power Axe with Unique Rules, Both the Long form of Armourbane(if it were Armourbane, it would say Armourbane), and the fact that the Kharn's 2+ to hit is a unique rule granted by Gorechild.

Yeah, Gorechild is unique.

Ill accept that.

edit It's also not a regular power axe either.

Therefore RAW it can't use the Power Axe line anyway.

As you can only use that if you have no Special Rules...



Oh wait. If it has no special rules look at the model.

Makes more sense now

robzidious wrote:The more I have thought about this, I believe I may have been wrong based on the wording of the rules. It says in the rulebook that if some entry says "power weapon" you refer to what it is modeled as and use that. Thus Dante's would be a power axe, Astorath's would be a power axe, and SG would be based on whatever is modeled at the time, of course including all their special rules as well.

I think the need to clarify Lemartes' weapon (as with all Chaplains) was to define what a crozius should be in general (a power maul).

I believe the intent with "unique" power weapons was those that don't fall in the categories of sword, axe, maul, and lance, and are not easily identified. The wording of having special rules of their own (i.e. Astorath's axe) make this confusing. Either way GW needs to clarify.

I believe this guy has got it right... even though I really don't like it.

I don't.
Unique power weapons are power weapons with unique rules.
ALSO unique rules in close combat.
"If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules" seems to apply to many examples.

The rulebook is 100% clear (page 61) - "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has... if it's an axe or halberd, it's a power axe."

It doesn't get any more clear than that... Dante has an Axe. Now the only possible save for us is the, "no further special rules" part, but this is entirely debatable. There is no definitive answer really, is a "typical" USR considered "further special rules" ...imo it's not but I'm hoping GW will say it is. It doesn't make any sense to have Dante striking last.

So again since everyone absolutely failes to see the obvious,

Does a default power weapon come master-crafted?

No.

Does the Axe of Mortalis do something different then a default power weapon?

Yes.

How is this even a debate? Arguing over the semantics of unique, special, and universal rules? It is like 6th edition released a bunch of new graduated rules lawyers school that barely passed the bar exam. Let's make this simple;

Is the power axe that I buy for my Grey Hunter to carry the exact same as the Axe of Mortalis in function?

No.

And for those of you that keep bringing up the Black Templar example;

You buy a power weapon. It's type is established by what you have modeled on the model, let's say type X. You then mastcraft that type X power weapon. You cannot mastercraft something that has not yet purchased.

Edit:

I would even go as far to say that you class your BT models power weapon when you initially model it, which is long before you ever mastercraft it.