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Blood Angels Codex pg 23

Equipment, top of page, "when an item is unique, it is detailed in the relevant entry for its owner...A good example of this is the Axe Mortalis, a potent weapon wielded by Commander Dante."

There ya go folks. I was looking forward to AP 2 axes on Dante and SG, but it looks like they are unique and strike as AP 3 Melee.

You have just made Dante a character I will play again, at least until the next codex. Thanks.

Radiation wrote:Blood Angels Codex pg 23

Equipment, top of page, "when an item is unique, it is detailed in the relevant entry for its owner...A good example of this is the Axe Mortalis, a potent weapon wielded by Commander Dante."

There ya go folks. I was looking forward to AP 2 axes on Dante and SG, but it looks like they are unique and strike as AP 3 Melee.

Uhhh ...good enough for me.

Everyone look at Unusual Power Weapons. It says, " Many models have unusual power weapons that have one or more unique rules."

A USR is not a Unique Rule so Dante's Weapon may be Unique, but its rules are universal hence it is not unusual because it has no unique rules.

If you look at Astorath his Melee Weapon has Unique rules because it hits at Strength 6 and it forces Invuls against it to be re-rolled.

Red Comet.

The problem is, that if you take that view, there are no rules for Dante's weapon.

Power Weapons do not have default rules.

It has special rules (master crafted), so you don't look at the model to decide what weapon it is.

But if it doesn't fall under the category 'unusual' then we have no rules to use, so that the weapon does nothing.

Which do you think it should be?

Radiation wrote:Blood Angels Codex pg 23

Equipment, top of page, "when an item is unique, it is detailed in the relevant entry for its owner...A good example of this is the Axe Mortalis, a potent weapon wielded by Commander Dante."

There ya go folks. I was looking forward to AP 2 axes on Dante and SG, but it looks like they are unique and strike as AP 3 Melee.

Yep, the Item is unique.

The rules however are not(and unique rules are what makes a Power weapon Unusual, not that the Power weapon is a unique Item).

Lets look at it this way:

the Dark Angels Codex is due out fairly soonish(probably Early 2013; I have no idea, but it will be among the first 6th edition Codices).

Since Loyalist Marines, and a First founding Chapter such as the Dark Angels will/Generally have access to Master Crafted weapons, lets assume Master crafting will be an available upgrade(Like it is for Grey Knights).

SO lets take a Chaplain; A Crozius Arcanum is a Power Maul(We already know this from the loyalist FAQs).

when you spend points to master craft that Crozius Arcanum(For sake of the Argument, lets just assume Master crafting the weapon is a purchase option); does it no longer count as a Power Maul, but becomes an Unusual Power weapon instead?

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Radiation wrote:Blood Angels Codex pg 23

Equipment, top of page, "when an item is unique, it is detailed in the relevant entry for its owner...A good example of this is the Axe Mortalis, a potent weapon wielded by Commander Dante."

There ya go folks. I was looking forward to AP 2 axes on Dante and SG, but it looks like they are unique and strike as AP 3 Melee.

Yep, the Item is unique.

The rules however are not(and unique rules are what makes a Power weapon Unusual, not that the Power weapon is a unique Item).

Lets look at it this way:

the Dark Angels Codex is due out fairly soonish(probably Early 2013; I have no idea, but it will be among the first 6th edition Codices).

Since Loyalist Marines, and a First founding Chapter such as the Dark Angels will/Generally have access to Master Crafted weapons, lets assume Master crafting will be an available upgrade(Like it is for Grey Knights).

SO lets take a Chaplain; A Crozius Arcanum is a Power Maul(We already know this from the loyalist FAQs).

when you spend points to master craft that Crozius Arcanum(For sake of the Argument, lets just assume Master crafting the weapon is a purchase option); does it no longer count as a Power Maul, but becomes an Unusual Power weapon instead?

This stupid strawman has already been smacked down when it was brought up for BT power weapons and purchasing mastercrafted.

Did your imaginary chaplain's wargear entry say that he comes with a mastercrafted maul? If not, then his power weapon did not come with any FURTHER special rules. Read the RAW. If they power weapon did not come with any further special rules, you default to how it looks to determine the rules. Adding mastercrafted after the fact does not make it special/unique and thus ap3, because it did not originally come with said FURTHER special rule to class it as a special/unique weapon at ap3.

Kiredor wrote:Red Comet.

The problem is, that if you take that view, there are no rules for Dante's weapon.

Power Weapons do not have default rules.

It has special rules (master crafted), so you don't look at the model to decide what weapon it is.

But if it doesn't fall under the category 'unusual' then we have no rules to use, so that the weapon does nothing.

Which do you think it should be?

Dante's weapon has rules that are all USR.

Power Weapons do have default rules.

Yes you do look at the model because Dante has a Power Weapon thus the shape of the model decides.

Its not unusual in any way because Lemartes's Crozius is not unusual either. It was changed to be a Master crafted Power Maul in the FAQ, not a Master crafted Ap3 Melee Weapon because it is unusual.

Red Comet wrote:

Kiredor wrote:Red Comet.

The problem is, that if you take that view, there are no rules for Dante's weapon.

Power Weapons do not have default rules.

It has special rules (master crafted), so you don't look at the model to decide what weapon it is.

But if it doesn't fall under the category 'unusual' then we have no rules to use, so that the weapon does nothing.

Which do you think it should be?

Dante's weapon has rules that are all USR.

Power Weapons do have default rules.

Yes you do look at the model because Dante has a Power Weapon thus the shape of the model decides.

Its not unusual in any way because Lemartes's Crozius is not unusual either. It was changed to be a Master crafted Power Maul in the FAQ, not a Master crafted Ap3 Melee Weapon because it is unusual.

You have no idea what you are talking about or don't own the new 6th edition rulebook yet.

The Axe of Moralis is a mastercrafted power weapon.

Per the absolute and undeniable RAW, you only look at what is modeled if there are NO FURTHER SPECIAL RULES. Mastercrafted is a further special rule so you do not look at the Axe of Mortalis to see what is modeled to determine the rules of the weapon.

What Kiredor is saying that if anyone insists on the idiotic thought process that a mastercrafted power weapon is not special/unique and thus ap3, user str/initiative, then all mastercrafted power weapons don't do crap. So you have to either accept that,

1. Mastercrafted power weapons are both special/unique and thus are ap3, user str/initiative

Or

2. Mastercrafted power weapons are user str/initiative ap-

And your tidbit about Lemartes, until the FAQ, his crozius was just a mastercrafted ap3, user str/initiative. The FAQ changed the weapon entry completely.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Red Comet wrote:

Kiredor wrote:Red Comet.

The problem is, that if you take that view, there are no rules for Dante's weapon.

Power Weapons do not have default rules.

It has special rules (master crafted), so you don't look at the model to decide what weapon it is.

But if it doesn't fall under the category 'unusual' then we have no rules to use, so that the weapon does nothing.

Which do you think it should be?

Dante's weapon has rules that are all USR.

Power Weapons do have default rules.

Yes you do look at the model because Dante has a Power Weapon thus the shape of the model decides.

Its not unusual in any way because Lemartes's Crozius is not unusual either. It was changed to be a Master crafted Power Maul in the FAQ, not a Master crafted Ap3 Melee Weapon because it is unusual.

You have no idea what you are talking about or don't own the new 6th edition rulebook yet.

The Axe of Moralis is a mastercrafted power weapon.

Per the absolute and undeniable RAW, you only look at what is modeled if there are NO FURTHER SPECIAL RULES. Mastercrafted is a further special rule so you do not look at the Axe of Mortalis to see what is modeled to determine the rules of the weapon.

What Kiredor is saying that if anyone insists on the idiotic thought process that a mastercrafted power weapon is not special/unique and thus ap3, user str/initiative, then all mastercrafted power weapons don't do crap. So you have to either accept that,

1. Mastercrafted power weapons are both special/unique and thus are ap3, user str/initiative

Or

2. Mastercrafted power weapons are user str/initiative ap-

And your tidbit about Lemartes, until the FAQ, his crozius was just a mastercrafted ap3, user str/initiative. The FAQ changed the weapon entry completely.

You are hilarious man. You sit here and make fun of me as if I don't have the rulebook. Look here I'm going to quote for you word for word and not insult you unlike what you like to do:

Unusual Power Weapons:
"Many models have unusual power weapons that have one or more unique rules. If a Power Weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee Weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry."

You mention SPECIAL Rules well you obviously don't have the rulebook, because it says UNIQUE rules as I just typed up for you. Unique rules aren't USR. Unique rules aren't found anywhere else. Dante has a Mastercrafted (USR) Power Weapon. That doesn't make it have any unique rules. It follows all of the normal rules for a Master crafted Power Weapon.

Let me elaborate more. Lemartes's crozius is just as clear as well. Its simply a Master crafted Power Weapon. The FAQ changed it to a Master Crafted Power Maul. Its doesn't have UNIQUE rules, it has special rules that are covered in the BRB. So it follows the rules for a Master crafted Power Maul, not an unusual weapon because there is nothing unique about a weapon being mastercrafted.

Astaroth has an Unusual weapon because it has Unique rules, not special ones.

Oh one last definition special =/= unique. Special means its special. Unique means one of a kind. Is Mastercrafted one of a kind? No, hence its not unique, but special.

Brother Ramses wrote:This stupid strawman has already been smacked down when it was brought up for BT power weapons and purchasing mastercrafted.

Did your imaginary chaplain's wargear entry say that he comes with a mastercrafted maul? If not, then his power weapon did not come with any FURTHER special rules. Read the RAW. If they power weapon did not come with any further special rules, you default to how it looks to determine the rules. Adding mastercrafted after the fact does not make it special/unique and thus ap3, because it did not originally come with said FURTHER special rule to class it as a special/unique weapon at ap3.

A Chaplains Crozius is never just a Power weapon; it is Always a Power Maul.

Also your ridiculous "smack down" against "this Stupid Strawman" is entirely invalid; When you check what type of Power weapon your model has is after the Model has been built, If I am Building my model to suit my list and My list has a Mastercrafted Power weapon; then according to you that power weapon is now an unusual Power weapon and the Form of that power weapon will not matter.

Scenario: I Make a List for the current Black Templar Codex(Since you brought it up), giving my Marshal A master crafted Power weapon.
I then start building my Marshal model and Decide I want him to have a Spear(Because I have him bike mounted you see and it just looks cool that way).
Now when I have built my Charging Black templar Knight Marshal Model I look to it's power weapon to determine which type of power weapon I have, but Oh, wait; my Power weapon is Master crafted, I guess it is an unusual power weapon?

No wait, it has a Special rule, but no unique rules; so it is a Power weapon that is not Unusual.

Ramses, are you seriously suggesting that The Axe Mortalis falls under the same rules that Relic Blades, Agonisers, Huskblades, Drach'nyen and Talon of Horus, and GK Force Halberds do? EDIT: All of those weapons fall under unusual power weapons.

Red Comet wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

Red Comet wrote:

Kiredor wrote:Red Comet.

The problem is, that if you take that view, there are no rules for Dante's weapon.

Power Weapons do not have default rules.

It has special rules (master crafted), so you don't look at the model to decide what weapon it is.

But if it doesn't fall under the category 'unusual' then we have no rules to use, so that the weapon does nothing.

Which do you think it should be?

Dante's weapon has rules that are all USR.

Power Weapons do have default rules.

Yes you do look at the model because Dante has a Power Weapon thus the shape of the model decides.

Its not unusual in any way because Lemartes's Crozius is not unusual either. It was changed to be a Master crafted Power Maul in the FAQ, not a Master crafted Ap3 Melee Weapon because it is unusual.

You have no idea what you are talking about or don't own the new 6th edition rulebook yet.

The Axe of Moralis is a mastercrafted power weapon.

Per the absolute and undeniable RAW, you only look at what is modeled if there are NO FURTHER SPECIAL RULES. Mastercrafted is a further special rule so you do not look at the Axe of Mortalis to see what is modeled to determine the rules of the weapon.

What Kiredor is saying that if anyone insists on the idiotic thought process that a mastercrafted power weapon is not special/unique and thus ap3, user str/initiative, then all mastercrafted power weapons don't do crap. So you have to either accept that,

1. Mastercrafted power weapons are both special/unique and thus are ap3, user str/initiative

Or

2. Mastercrafted power weapons are user str/initiative ap-

And your tidbit about Lemartes, until the FAQ, his crozius was just a mastercrafted ap3, user str/initiative. The FAQ changed the weapon entry completely.

You are hilarious man. You sit here and make fun of me as if I don't have the rulebook. Look here I'm going to quote for you word for word and not insult you unlike what you like to do:

Unusual Power Weapons:
"Many models have unusual power weapons that have one or more unique rules. If a Power Weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee Weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry."

You mention SPECIAL Rules well you obviously don't have the rulebook, because it says UNIQUE rules as I just typed up for you. Unique rules aren't USR. Unique rules aren't found anywhere else. Dante has a Mastercrafted (USR) Power Weapon. That doesn't make it have any unique rules. It follows all of the normal rules for a Master crafted Power Weapon.

Let me elaborate more. Lemartes's crozius is just as clear as well. Its simply a Master crafted Power Weapon. The FAQ changed it to a Master Crafted Power Maul. Its doesn't have UNIQUE rules, it has special rules that are covered in the BRB. So it follows the rules for a Master crafted Power Maul, not an unusual weapon because there is nothing unique about a weapon being mastercrafted.

Astaroth has an Unusual weapon because it has Unique rules, not special ones.

Oh one last definition special =/= unique. Special means its special. Unique means one of a kind. Is Mastercrafted one of a kind? No, hence its not unique, but special.

/shakes head

Core rulebook, pg 61 Types of Power Weapons, paragraph 2:

"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further SPECIAL rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has;...."

BA Codex pg 53, Axe of Mortalis:

"The Axe of Mortalis is a master-crafted power weapon."

Now still sticking with you not knowing what you are talking about, by all means please show me how you look what Dante is carrying to determine the rules for the power weapon when the RAW specifically tells you that the only time you do check for what the model is carrying is when there are NO FURTHER SPECIAL RULES? Last time I checked master-crafted was a SPECIAL rule and the Axe of Mortailis is a master-crafted power weapon, ie, a power weapon with FURTHER SPECIAL rules.

So your stance that the Axe of Mortalis follows the rules for a master-crafted power axe does not stand up to the RAW because the rules entry has a FURTHER SPECIAL RULE and thus you NEVER look to what is modeled to determine the rules.

As I then stated, because you cannot class the Axe of Mortalis because of the FURTHER SPECIAL Rule in the wargear entry (master-crafted) on how it is modeled you left with the two choices I gave you.

1. Class master-crafted as a unique rule for the wargear entry and the Axe of Mortalis becomes user str/init, ap3

Or

2. Idiotically insist that master-crafted is only special, but not unique and you are left with a master-crafted power weapon that is user str/init, ap-, and can reroll one missed hit when used in melee.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:This stupid strawman has already been smacked down when it was brought up for BT power weapons and purchasing mastercrafted.

Did your imaginary chaplain's wargear entry say that he comes with a mastercrafted maul? If not, then his power weapon did not come with any FURTHER special rules. Read the RAW. If they power weapon did not come with any further special rules, you default to how it looks to determine the rules. Adding mastercrafted after the fact does not make it special/unique and thus ap3, because it did not originally come with said FURTHER special rule to class it as a special/unique weapon at ap3.

A Chaplains Crozius is never just a Power weapon; it is Always a Power Maul.

Also your ridiculous "smack down" against "this Stupid Strawman" is entirely invalid; When you check what type of Power weapon your model has is after the Model has been built, If I am Building my model to suit my list and My list has a Mastercrafted Power weapon; then according to you that power weapon is now an unusual Power weapon and the Form of that power weapon will not matter.

Scenario: I Make a List for the current Black Templar Codex(Since you brought it up), giving my Marshal A master crafted Power weapon.
I then start building my Marshal model and Decide I want him to have a Spear(Because I have him bike mounted you see and it just looks cool that way).
Now when I have built my Charging Black templar Knight Marshal Model I look to it's power weapon to determine which type of power weapon I have, but Oh, wait; my Power weapon is Master crafted, I guess it is an unusual power weapon?

No wait, it has a Special rule, but no unique rules; so it is a Power weapon that is not Unusual.

KK, what does the wargear entry for a DA/BT/UM chaplain say? Does it say master-crafted Crozius Arcanum? For example, FAQ not withstanding, the BA codex, pg 42

"Crozius Arcanum: The Crozius Arcanum is a Space Marine Chaplain's rod of office. It is a power weapon."

Now again referencing page 61 of the core rulebook,

"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look to the model to tell which type of power weapon it has:....."

Were there any further special rules for the Crozius Arcanum wargear entry? Then it defaults to how the weapon looks. Now apply the same to your imaginary DA chaplain:

His imaginary wargear entry says the exact same as the BA entry; it is a power weapon. With no further special rules, you class it how it looks, most likely a maul.

Now with both your BT example and your DA example, did the models wargear entry contain any further special rules? Probably not with the way you are trying to argue your point. So you then class the weapon on how you modeled it.

You then purchased master-crafting for a weapon that has already been classed on how it looks because the wargear originally did not have any further special rules. You added a special rule later, but that was not part of the original wargear entry and thus were forced to class your weapon on how it was modeled and then master-crafted that specific type of weapon.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Red Comet wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

Red Comet wrote:

Kiredor wrote:Red Comet.

The problem is, that if you take that view, there are no rules for Dante's weapon.

Power Weapons do not have default rules.

It has special rules (master crafted), so you don't look at the model to decide what weapon it is.

But if it doesn't fall under the category 'unusual' then we have no rules to use, so that the weapon does nothing.

Which do you think it should be?

Dante's weapon has rules that are all USR.

Power Weapons do have default rules.

Yes you do look at the model because Dante has a Power Weapon thus the shape of the model decides.

Its not unusual in any way because Lemartes's Crozius is not unusual either. It was changed to be a Master crafted Power Maul in the FAQ, not a Master crafted Ap3 Melee Weapon because it is unusual.

You have no idea what you are talking about or don't own the new 6th edition rulebook yet.

The Axe of Moralis is a mastercrafted power weapon.

Per the absolute and undeniable RAW, you only look at what is modeled if there are NO FURTHER SPECIAL RULES. Mastercrafted is a further special rule so you do not look at the Axe of Mortalis to see what is modeled to determine the rules of the weapon.

What Kiredor is saying that if anyone insists on the idiotic thought process that a mastercrafted power weapon is not special/unique and thus ap3, user str/initiative, then all mastercrafted power weapons don't do crap. So you have to either accept that,

1. Mastercrafted power weapons are both special/unique and thus are ap3, user str/initiative

Or

2. Mastercrafted power weapons are user str/initiative ap-

And your tidbit about Lemartes, until the FAQ, his crozius was just a mastercrafted ap3, user str/initiative. The FAQ changed the weapon entry completely.

You are hilarious man. You sit here and make fun of me as if I don't have the rulebook. Look here I'm going to quote for you word for word and not insult you unlike what you like to do:

Unusual Power Weapons:
"Many models have unusual power weapons that have one or more unique rules. If a Power Weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee Weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry."

You mention SPECIAL Rules well you obviously don't have the rulebook, because it says UNIQUE rules as I just typed up for you. Unique rules aren't USR. Unique rules aren't found anywhere else. Dante has a Mastercrafted (USR) Power Weapon. That doesn't make it have any unique rules. It follows all of the normal rules for a Master crafted Power Weapon.

Let me elaborate more. Lemartes's crozius is just as clear as well. Its simply a Master crafted Power Weapon. The FAQ changed it to a Master Crafted Power Maul. Its doesn't have UNIQUE rules, it has special rules that are covered in the BRB. So it follows the rules for a Master crafted Power Maul, not an unusual weapon because there is nothing unique about a weapon being mastercrafted.

Astaroth has an Unusual weapon because it has Unique rules, not special ones.

Oh one last definition special =/= unique. Special means its special. Unique means one of a kind. Is Mastercrafted one of a kind? No, hence its not unique, but special.

/shakes head

Core rulebook, pg 61 Types of Power Weapons, paragraph 2:

"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further SPECIAL rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has;...."

BA Codex pg 53, Axe of Mortalis:

"The Axe of Mortalis is a master-crafted power weapon."

Now still sticking with you not knowing what you are talking about, by all means please show me how you look what Dante is carrying to determine the rules for the power weapon when the RAW specifically tells you that the only time you do check for what the model is carrying is when there are NO FURTHER SPECIAL RULES? Last time I checked master-crafted was a SPECIAL rule and the Axe of Mortailis is a master-crafted power weapon, ie, a power weapon with FURTHER SPECIAL rules.

So your stance that the Axe of Mortalis follows the rules for a master-crafted power axe does not stand up to the RAW because the rules entry has a FURTHER SPECIAL RULE and thus you NEVER look to what is modeled to determine the rules.

As I then stated, because you cannot class the Axe of Mortalis because of the FURTHER SPECIAL Rule in the wargear entry (master-crafted) on how it is modeled you left with the two choices I gave you.

1. Class master-crafted as a unique rule for the wargear entry and the Axe of Mortalis becomes user str/init, ap3

Or

2. Idiotically insist that master-crafted is only special, but not unique and you are left with a master-crafted power weapon that is user str/init, ap-, and can reroll one missed hit when used in melee.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:This stupid strawman has already been smacked down when it was brought up for BT power weapons and purchasing mastercrafted.

Did your imaginary chaplain's wargear entry say that he comes with a mastercrafted maul? If not, then his power weapon did not come with any FURTHER special rules. Read the RAW. If they power weapon did not come with any further special rules, you default to how it looks to determine the rules. Adding mastercrafted after the fact does not make it special/unique and thus ap3, because it did not originally come with said FURTHER special rule to class it as a special/unique weapon at ap3.

A Chaplains Crozius is never just a Power weapon; it is Always a Power Maul.

Also your ridiculous "smack down" against "this Stupid Strawman" is entirely invalid; When you check what type of Power weapon your model has is after the Model has been built, If I am Building my model to suit my list and My list has a Mastercrafted Power weapon; then according to you that power weapon is now an unusual Power weapon and the Form of that power weapon will not matter.

Scenario: I Make a List for the current Black Templar Codex(Since you brought it up), giving my Marshal A master crafted Power weapon.
I then start building my Marshal model and Decide I want him to have a Spear(Because I have him bike mounted you see and it just looks cool that way).
Now when I have built my Charging Black templar Knight Marshal Model I look to it's power weapon to determine which type of power weapon I have, but Oh, wait; my Power weapon is Master crafted, I guess it is an unusual power weapon?

No wait, it has a Special rule, but no unique rules; so it is a Power weapon that is not Unusual.

KK, what does the wargear entry for a DA/BT/UM chaplain say? Does it say master-crafted Crozius Arcanum? For example, FAQ not withstanding, the BA codex, pg 42

"Crozius Arcanum: The Crozius Arcanum is a Space Marine Chaplain's rod of office. It is a power weapon."

Now again referencing page 61 of the core rulebook,

"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look to the model to tell which type of power weapon it has:....."

Were there any further special rules for the Crozius Arcanum wargear entry? Then it defaults to how the weapon looks. Now apply the same to your imaginary DA chaplain:

His imaginary wargear entry says the exact same as the BA entry; it is a power weapon. With no further special rules, you class it how it looks, most likely a maul.

Now with both your BT example and your DA example, did the models wargear entry contain any further special rules? Probably not with the way you are trying to argue your point. So you then class the weapon on how you modeled it.

You then purchased master-crafting for a weapon that has already been classed on how it looks because the wargear originally did not have any further special rules. You added a special rule later, but that was not part of the original wargear entry and thus were forced to class your weapon on how it was modeled and then master-crafted that specific type of weapon.

I understand your point now, because you actually reference the rulebook. This is actually a contradiction within the rules, but its pretty clear by Lemartes's Crozius that Dante has a Power Axe because Lemartes now has a Power Maul per the FAQ when before it was a "Master crafted Power Weapon". If we look at that FAQ for precedence we would see that following the same logic Dante has a Power Axe and the Sanguinary Guard depend on what they are holding.

By your logic Lemartes's Crozius should be an AP3 Melee Weapon that is mastercrafted, but its not now is it?

Looking at your ridiculous example of adding Master Crafted after purchasing the weapon with points and purchasing Mastercrafted then the Power Weapons should be classified as Ap3 Melee Weapons and not as what you modeled them as. Stop contradicting yourself. You are making no sense with that example. There is no order of operations for determining a weapon.

You guys figure it out yet? Can I tell the guy across from me that THIS is undeniably the correct answer? HAha...

This is clearly, Unresolvable with the given information, which is clearly what I stated at the beginning of this debate - which means - HAH YES! - I WAS RIGHT

You guys need to chill out anyway, this argument has been going in circles over the coarse of several threads with NO real headway despite strong convictions for either argument.

Red Comet wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

Red Comet wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

Red Comet wrote:

Kiredor wrote:Red Comet.

The problem is, that if you take that view, there are no rules for Dante's weapon.

Power Weapons do not have default rules.

It has special rules (master crafted), so you don't look at the model to decide what weapon it is.

But if it doesn't fall under the category 'unusual' then we have no rules to use, so that the weapon does nothing.

Which do you think it should be?

Dante's weapon has rules that are all USR.

Power Weapons do have default rules.

Yes you do look at the model because Dante has a Power Weapon thus the shape of the model decides.

Its not unusual in any way because Lemartes's Crozius is not unusual either. It was changed to be a Master crafted Power Maul in the FAQ, not a Master crafted Ap3 Melee Weapon because it is unusual.

You have no idea what you are talking about or don't own the new 6th edition rulebook yet.

The Axe of Moralis is a mastercrafted power weapon.

Per the absolute and undeniable RAW, you only look at what is modeled if there are NO FURTHER SPECIAL RULES. Mastercrafted is a further special rule so you do not look at the Axe of Mortalis to see what is modeled to determine the rules of the weapon.

What Kiredor is saying that if anyone insists on the idiotic thought process that a mastercrafted power weapon is not special/unique and thus ap3, user str/initiative, then all mastercrafted power weapons don't do crap. So you have to either accept that,

1. Mastercrafted power weapons are both special/unique and thus are ap3, user str/initiative

Or

2. Mastercrafted power weapons are user str/initiative ap-

And your tidbit about Lemartes, until the FAQ, his crozius was just a mastercrafted ap3, user str/initiative. The FAQ changed the weapon entry completely.

You are hilarious man. You sit here and make fun of me as if I don't have the rulebook. Look here I'm going to quote for you word for word and not insult you unlike what you like to do:

Unusual Power Weapons:
"Many models have unusual power weapons that have one or more unique rules. If a Power Weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee Weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry."

You mention SPECIAL Rules well you obviously don't have the rulebook, because it says UNIQUE rules as I just typed up for you. Unique rules aren't USR. Unique rules aren't found anywhere else. Dante has a Mastercrafted (USR) Power Weapon. That doesn't make it have any unique rules. It follows all of the normal rules for a Master crafted Power Weapon.

Let me elaborate more. Lemartes's crozius is just as clear as well. Its simply a Master crafted Power Weapon. The FAQ changed it to a Master Crafted Power Maul. Its doesn't have UNIQUE rules, it has special rules that are covered in the BRB. So it follows the rules for a Master crafted Power Maul, not an unusual weapon because there is nothing unique about a weapon being mastercrafted.

Astaroth has an Unusual weapon because it has Unique rules, not special ones.

Oh one last definition special =/= unique. Special means its special. Unique means one of a kind. Is Mastercrafted one of a kind? No, hence its not unique, but special.

/shakes head

Core rulebook, pg 61 Types of Power Weapons, paragraph 2:

"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further SPECIAL rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has;...."

BA Codex pg 53, Axe of Mortalis:

"The Axe of Mortalis is a master-crafted power weapon."

Now still sticking with you not knowing what you are talking about, by all means please show me how you look what Dante is carrying to determine the rules for the power weapon when the RAW specifically tells you that the only time you do check for what the model is carrying is when there are NO FURTHER SPECIAL RULES? Last time I checked master-crafted was a SPECIAL rule and the Axe of Mortailis is a master-crafted power weapon, ie, a power weapon with FURTHER SPECIAL rules.

So your stance that the Axe of Mortalis follows the rules for a master-crafted power axe does not stand up to the RAW because the rules entry has a FURTHER SPECIAL RULE and thus you NEVER look to what is modeled to determine the rules.

As I then stated, because you cannot class the Axe of Mortalis because of the FURTHER SPECIAL Rule in the wargear entry (master-crafted) on how it is modeled you left with the two choices I gave you.

1. Class master-crafted as a unique rule for the wargear entry and the Axe of Mortalis becomes user str/init, ap3

Or

2. Idiotically insist that master-crafted is only special, but not unique and you are left with a master-crafted power weapon that is user str/init, ap-, and can reroll one missed hit when used in melee.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:This stupid strawman has already been smacked down when it was brought up for BT power weapons and purchasing mastercrafted.

Did your imaginary chaplain's wargear entry say that he comes with a mastercrafted maul? If not, then his power weapon did not come with any FURTHER special rules. Read the RAW. If they power weapon did not come with any further special rules, you default to how it looks to determine the rules. Adding mastercrafted after the fact does not make it special/unique and thus ap3, because it did not originally come with said FURTHER special rule to class it as a special/unique weapon at ap3.

A Chaplains Crozius is never just a Power weapon; it is Always a Power Maul.

Also your ridiculous "smack down" against "this Stupid Strawman" is entirely invalid; When you check what type of Power weapon your model has is after the Model has been built, If I am Building my model to suit my list and My list has a Mastercrafted Power weapon; then according to you that power weapon is now an unusual Power weapon and the Form of that power weapon will not matter.

Scenario: I Make a List for the current Black Templar Codex(Since you brought it up), giving my Marshal A master crafted Power weapon.
I then start building my Marshal model and Decide I want him to have a Spear(Because I have him bike mounted you see and it just looks cool that way).
Now when I have built my Charging Black templar Knight Marshal Model I look to it's power weapon to determine which type of power weapon I have, but Oh, wait; my Power weapon is Master crafted, I guess it is an unusual power weapon?

No wait, it has a Special rule, but no unique rules; so it is a Power weapon that is not Unusual.

KK, what does the wargear entry for a DA/BT/UM chaplain say? Does it say master-crafted Crozius Arcanum? For example, FAQ not withstanding, the BA codex, pg 42

"Crozius Arcanum: The Crozius Arcanum is a Space Marine Chaplain's rod of office. It is a power weapon."

Now again referencing page 61 of the core rulebook,

"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look to the model to tell which type of power weapon it has:....."

Were there any further special rules for the Crozius Arcanum wargear entry? Then it defaults to how the weapon looks. Now apply the same to your imaginary DA chaplain:

His imaginary wargear entry says the exact same as the BA entry; it is a power weapon. With no further special rules, you class it how it looks, most likely a maul.

Now with both your BT example and your DA example, did the models wargear entry contain any further special rules? Probably not with the way you are trying to argue your point. So you then class the weapon on how you modeled it.

You then purchased master-crafting for a weapon that has already been classed on how it looks because the wargear originally did not have any further special rules. You added a special rule later, but that was not part of the original wargear entry and thus were forced to class your weapon on how it was modeled and then master-crafted that specific type of weapon.

I understand your point now, because you actually reference the rulebook. This is actually a contradiction within the rules, but its pretty clear by Lemartes's Crozius that Dante has a Power Axe because Lemartes now has a Power Maul per the FAQ when before it was a "Master crafted Power Weapon". If we look at that FAQ for precedence we would see that following the same logic Dante has a Power Axe and the Sanguinary Guard depend on what they are holding.

By your logic Lemartes's Crozius should be an AP3 Melee Weapon that is mastercrafted, but its not now is it?

Looking at your ridiculous example of adding Master Crafted after purchasing the weapon with points and purchasing Mastercrafted then the Power Weapons should be classified as Ap3 Melee Weapons and not as what you modeled them as. Stop contradicting yourself. You are making no sense with that example. There is no order of operations for determining a weapon.

First of all, the FAQ for Lemartes overrules the codex entry for Lemartes, and lemartes ONLY. They didn't apply the same standard to the Axe of Mortalis or the Glaive Encarmines, hence why there is no FAQ for the Axe of Mortalis or Glaive Encarmines making them power axes. Just like the BA ruling for Lemartes' crozius has absolutely zero bearing on what a Wolf Priest's crozius can or cannot be. You can assume all you want and then try and project that assumption as RAW, but you just end up looking foolish.

I figured my explanation of the RAW behind a wargear entry having further special rules and purchasing further special rules would leave you puzzled as once again based on the RAW of the rules and not RAI assumptions.

Forget the actual codex given name of two power weapons,

Wargear entry 1: master-crafted power weapon
Wargear entry 2: power weapon

Now breaking it down Sesame Street style, "one of these things is not like the other, one of these things isn't the same....!" Can you find the difference?

One of these weapons says that it has a further special rule and one does not. That means one of these weapons looks to how the model has been modeled for the power weapon rules and one does not.

Now apply the exact same RAW to a DA chaplain and his crozius whose wargear entry ONLY states, "power weapon" and has no further special rules. You class his weapon based on how it looks (maul) and then when you purchase the option to master-craft it, you are master-crafting a maul. This is in complete opposite to what happens when a wargear says a power weapon has further special rules or in the case above, mastercrafted in the wargear entry.

Seriously, present a RAW argument against it instead of opinions. You have zero RAW support to class the Axe of Mortalis or Glaive Encarmines per the Lemartes FaQ. And btw, there is an order of operations on classing a power weapon. I have quoted it twice and it is what my argument is based off.

Are you seriously arguing that a weapon which is considered a Master Crafted Power Weapon, is different from a Weapon that's a Power Weapon with the master crafted rule? Seriously?

Its the same thing. A mastercrafted power weapon is a master crafted power weapon no matter how it came to be one. Your entire argument isn't even based on RAW. Its based on your opinion because there is no order of operations because GW has never clearly stated it. I'm pretty sure that GW got lazy with the FAQ's hence why this discussion is even occurring. Watch for the FAQ its going to be ruled that the SG Glaive's depend on the weapon they carry and Dante is wielding a power axe.

Breaking this up point by point.

Brother Ramses wrote:
KK, what does the wargear entry for a DA/BT/UM chaplain say? Does it say master-crafted Crozius Arcanum? For example, FAQ not withstanding, the BA codex, pg 42

"Crozius Arcanum: The Crozius Arcanum is a Space Marine Chaplain's rod of office. It is a power weapon."

Lets just stop right here. The BA Codex, Page 42 Says: "A Crozius Arcanum is treated as a Power Maul."

You see, the FAQs are Withstanding; You replace the entry for Crozius Arcanum in the book with the one in the FAQ Amendment.

More to the point of our discussion, and that little "Strawman"; the BT codex says on page 27: "A Crozius Arcanum is treated as a Power Maul - refer to the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook."

Brother Ramses wrote:Now again referencing page 61 of the core rulebook,

"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look to the model to tell which type of power weapon it has:....."

Were there any further special rules for the Crozius Arcanum wargear entry? Then it defaults to how the weapon looks. Now apply the same to your imaginary DA chaplain:

This no longer applies, the Crozius is a Specified type of Power weapon.

Brother Ramses wrote:His imaginary wargear entry says the exact same as the BA entry; it is a power weapon. With no further special rules, you class it how it looks, most likely a maul.

Now with both your BT example and your DA example, did the models wargear entry contain any further special rules? Probably not with the way you are trying to argue your point. So you then class the weapon on how you modeled it.

With the BT and DA entry, you are applying "Master Crafted" to the Power weapon at list creation, at this point the rules are for a "Master crafted power weapon"; or a Power weapon with the Master crafted Special rule. When you determine what Type of power weapon you have would be the first time it is relevant(During the Game), because it is not until this point that you have any cause to determine the type.

Brother Ramses wrote:You then purchased master-crafting for a weapon that has already been classed on how it looks because the wargear originally did not have any further special rules. You added a special rule later, but that was not part of the original wargear entry and thus were forced to class your weapon on how it was modeled and then master-crafted that specific type of weapon.

Again, I do not know about you, but I tend to write my lists before purchase/assembly of my models, and as I have said above the rules do not support your view that you determine the type of power weapon as soon as you purchase it, you determine the type when it matters what type it is(unless the type is already defined by it's rules).

Red Comet wrote:Are you seriously arguing that a weapon which is considered a Master Crafted Power Weapon, is different from a Weapon that's a Power Weapon with the master crafted rule? Seriously?

Its the same thing. A mastercrafted power weapon is a master crafted power weapon no matter how it came to be one. Your entire argument isn't even based on RAW. Its based on your opinion because there is no order of operations because GW has never clearly stated it. I'm pretty sure that GW got lazy with the FAQ's hence why this discussion is even occurring. Watch for the FAQ its going to be ruled that the SG Glaive's depend on the weapon they carry and Dante is wielding a power axe.

It isn't the same thing according to the rules of this game.

The very first thing you do when determining the type of power weapon is check to see if the wargear has any further special rules. Depending on that discovery, or lack thereof, is when you check or do not check to see what the model is modeled with to determine power weapon type and the specific rules for that type.

Damn phone messing up my post!

Edit:

As for mastercrafting a power weapon through a purchased option, answer this;

Was mastercrafted in the power weapon wargear entry before you purchased it?

No. Therefore it was not considered a "further special rule" when determining the power weapon type and you instead look to classing it's type and associated rules by what was modeled. That determined type of power weapon is then mastercrafted, after the fact. It wasn't mastercrafted in the wargear entry and thus was not a "further special rule" when you are told to check.

Once again, bring a RAW argument. Accusing GW of being lazy with their FAQ is once again your opinion with zero rules support.

Actually the added section answered my point.

I don't see how any of your points are RAW at all when in game there is no distinction between adding the upgrade to a Power Weapon and a Power Weapon that already has it. Rules wise its the same. At the moment you are simply just reiterating the same thing as if saying it over and over makes you right. There is no order of operations. There are only Power Weapons or Master Crafted Power Weapons. There is no middle that has some weird loophole.

If what you say is true then as soon as any model mastercrafts any of his weapons it instantly becomes an AP3 Melee Weapon which makes no sense. Why can't I have a Master Crafted Power Axe?

Red Comet wrote:I don't see how any of your points are RAW at all when in game there is no distinction between adding the upgrade to a Power Weapon and a Power Weapon that already has it. Rules wise its the same. At the moment you are simply just reiterating the same thing as if saying it over and over makes you right. There is no order of operations. There are only Power Weapons or Master Crafted Power Weapons. There is no middle that has some weird loophole.

If what you say is true then as soon as any model mastercrafts any of his weapons it instantly becomes an AP3 Melee Weapon which makes no sense. Why can't I have a Master Crafted Power Axe?

I feel like Bill Murray talking to the mayor of New York in Ghostbusters!!!

The distinction is on page 61, second paragraph of power weapons that has been quoted over and over again.

A power weapon that has a further special rule does not refer to what has been modeled to determine type/rules. Do you agree with this or not?

Now, when buying a generic power weapon, does it have further special rules? No, so you refer to what is modeled to determine type/rules.

So when you purchase the option to mastercraft the above generic power weapon, that has already had its type/rules established by looking at the model because it did not have any further special rules, you are mastercrafting that type of weapon.

KK, this part applies to you as well. I did a quick glance through my codexes and have not found a single option to purchase a mastercrafted power weapon. I have seen the option to purchase a power weapon and I have seen an option to purchase mastercrafting that weapon, but not seen the option to purchase a mastercrafted weapon.

How about you show me the error of my ways with the following examples;

1. The wargear entry for Capt Jim West says he has a master-crafted power weapon. It is a power weapon that has further special rules (mastercrafted), so therefore you do not determine its type/rules by looking at the model. Insert debate if mastercrafting is also a unique rule, Capt Jim West has a mastercrafted power weapon with ap3, user str/init, reroll one missed hit when used in melee.

2. Capt James Kirk purchases a power weapon from his wargear options. The wargear entry for said power weapon has no further special rules so therefore you look at the model and determine that it is a axe, so its rules are str +1, ap2, init 1. Capt Kirk then purchases the option to mastercraft his now identified power axe. Kirk now has a mastercrafted power axe, str+1, ap2, init 1, reroll one missed hit when used in melee.

That is the RAW, with the exception being the ongoing debate whether or not mastercrafted is a unique rule or not.

Silly argument. I don't see the issue here. Its not a regular power weapon and special rules are unique to that weapon. The reason power fists,lightening claws and thunder hammers are not changed is because they are singled out with their respective USR'S. Based on the power weapon entry any additional rules added to a power weapon makes it unique for that entry. Even lamartes crozious is unique and was labeled a power maul because ALL CHAPLAINS weapons were changed because really what would you call it? Looks like we are going to keep kicking this dead horse.

GW would have made things easier if they understood people are going to tear this apart and put their own special spin on it.

chewielight wrote:Silly argument. I don't see the issue here. Its not a regular power weapon and special rules are unique to that weapon. The reason power fists,lightening claws and thunder hammers are not changed is because they are singled out with their respective USR'S. Based on the power weapon entry any additional rules added to a power weapon makes it unique for that entry. Even lamartes crozious is unique and was labeled a power maul because ALL CHAPLAINS weapons were changed because really what would you call it? Looks like we are going to keep kicking this dead horse.

GW would have made things easier if they understood people are going to tear this apart and put their own special spin on it.

Wolf Priests kept our Crozius as power weapons. Yea for different crozius' depending on what I magnetize!

Ramses: You keep claiming this whole "check the model while writing the List"

where is the RAW on that?

Where is the rules that you have to have the Model before you write the list up?

I checked my Rulebook and all of my codices(which is, coincidentally, every codex), and I have not found 1 rules that stated you have to have the models before you write out your Armylist, nor that you determine your Power weapon type before you finish writing out that model.

And for your Variable Crozius on your wolf Priest; I take it you will be switching out your magnetized arm before you write up your list right?

What about at the concept Stage? Do you have to determine which Power weapon as soon as you settle on fielding a Wolf Priest? Or even begin to think about it? Better just have 4 Wolf priests, one with each sub-type; that way when you are contemplating taking a wolf priest and look at your model(s), you will have 1 of each.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Ramses: You keep claiming this whole "check the model while writing the List"

where is the RAW on that?

Where is the rules that you have to have the Model before you write the list up?

I checked my Rulebook and all of my codices(which is, coincidentally, every codex), and I have not found 1 rules that stated you have to have the models before you write out your Armylist, nor that you determine your Power weapon type before you finish writing out that model.

And for your Variable Crozius on your wolf Priest; I take it you will be switching out your magnetized arm before you write up your list right?

What about at the concept Stage? Do you have to determine which Power weapon as soon as you settle on fielding a Wolf Priest? Or even begin to think about it? Better just have 4 Wolf priests, one with each sub-type; that way when you are contemplating taking a wolf priest and look at your model(s), you will have 1 of each.

KK, can you purchase a master-crafted power weapon or do you purchase a power weapon and then master-craft it? Simple question.

And it has absolutely nothing to do with having the model before you write the list, at all. The rules are specific in that you determine the type of power weapon when there are no further rules by what is on the model. Is master-crafted on that list of types of power weapons? You might consider adding some bedazzles to it, but that is not the criteria ofr identifying the model.

On another point, you could have all the intent when conceptualizing your army list in your mind that your HQ is going to be equipped with a master-crafted power axe. However that doesn't change the fact that you first purchased him a generic power weapon, and then master-crafted it. It didn't come master-crafted as in the instance of the Axe of Mortalis or Glaive Encarmines. That is the key difference that you keep failing to see.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:Ramses: You keep claiming this whole "check the model while writing the List"

where is the RAW on that?

Where is the rules that you have to have the Model before you write the list up?

I checked my Rulebook and all of my codices(which is, coincidentally, every codex), and I have not found 1 rules that stated you have to have the models before you write out your Armylist, nor that you determine your Power weapon type before you finish writing out that model.

And for your Variable Crozius on your wolf Priest; I take it you will be switching out your magnetized arm before you write up your list right?

What about at the concept Stage? Do you have to determine which Power weapon as soon as you settle on fielding a Wolf Priest? Or even begin to think about it? Better just have 4 Wolf priests, one with each sub-type; that way when you are contemplating taking a wolf priest and look at your model(s), you will have 1 of each.

KK, can you purchase a master-crafted power weapon or do you purchase a power weapon and then master-craft it? Simple question.

And it has absolutely nothing to do with having the model before you write the list, at all. The rules are specific in that you determine the type of power weapon when there are no further rules by what is on the model. Is master-crafted on that list of types of power weapons? You might consider adding some bedazzles to it, but that is not the criteria ofr identifying the model.

On another point, you could have all the intent when conceptualizing your army list in your mind that your HQ is going to be equipped with a master-crafted power axe. However that doesn't change the fact that you first purchased him a generic power weapon, and then master-crafted it. It didn't come master-crafted as in the instance of the Axe of Mortalis or Glaive Encarmines. That is the key difference that you keep failing to see.

Master Crafted is a Further rule though is it not?

You are claiming that before you finish writing the entry for your model(assigning the master crafted to the power weapon) you check if the power weapon has any special rules.

When you have your whatever model calculated for points cost, you have a Mastercrafted Power weapon(Which is a Power weapon that has the master crafted special rule).

Also do you even know what you are arguing at this point? Because you have muddied our discourse to the point where I do not even know if you are claiming Master crafted counts for making a power weapon unusual or not anymore(I am arguing it does not, since Master crafted is a basic special rule that can be attributed to many different weapons, and is in no way a "unique" special rule).

Brother Ramses wrote:

A power weapon that has a further special rule does not refer to what has been modeled to determine type/rules. Do you agree with this or not?

No I don't because it doesn't make sense. If there is a power weapon that has special rules which Power Weapon rules does it follow?

If I have a Mastercrafted Power Weapon then it has a special rule correct? So because of that it doesn't follow the rules for a Sword, Axe, Maul, or Lance. Now you would think to look at Unusual Power Weapons, but then it mentions UNIQUE rules, not special rules. So what defines the Power Weapon at that point then? This makes no sense and honestly I'm sure that in the FAQ it will change the word Special to Unique because that quickly fixes this entire issue with no more questions asked.

The RAW doesn't make sense and what you are saying makes no sense either because Special =/= Unique and we are never told what to do with a model that has "Special" Rules.

Now, when buying a generic power weapon, does it have further special rules? No, so you refer to what is modeled to determine type/rules.

So when you purchase the option to mastercraft the above generic power weapon, that has already had its type/rules established by looking at the model because it did not have any further special rules, you are mastercrafting that type of weapon.

KK, this part applies to you as well. I did a quick glance through my codexes and have not found a single option to purchase a mastercrafted power weapon. I have seen the option to purchase a power weapon and I have seen an option to purchase mastercrafting that weapon, but not seen the option to purchase a mastercrafted weapon.

The Power Weapon doesn't have its rules established at that point because when you purchase a Power Weapon and then Mastercraft it, you are still purchasing a Master crafted Power Weapon. This leaves us right back at what I was talking about above.

I don't see what your point is about purchasing a Mastercrafted Power Weapon is when you essentially purchase one when you pay the points for a model that has one.

How about you show me the error of my ways with the following examples;

1. The wargear entry for Capt Jim West says he has a master-crafted power weapon. It is a power weapon that has further special rules (mastercrafted), so therefore you do not determine its type/rules by looking at the model. Insert debate if mastercrafting is also a unique rule, Capt Jim West has a mastercrafted power weapon with ap3, user str/init, reroll one missed hit when used in melee.

2. Capt James Kirk purchases a power weapon from his wargear options. The wargear entry for said power weapon has no further special rules so therefore you look at the model and determine that it is a axe, so its rules are str +1, ap2, init 1. Capt Kirk then purchases the option to mastercraft his now identified power axe. Kirk now has a mastercrafted power axe, str+1, ap2, init 1, reroll one missed hit when used in melee.

That is the RAW, with the exception being the ongoing debate whether or not mastercrafted is a unique rule or not.

1) Look at my above argument. Its vague as to which he has because Unique =/= Special and we are never told what to do with a weapon that has a Special rule.

2) You are wrong about how it is a Power Axe because of what I've said before. Its vague and when you purchase it, its already mastercrafted as far as the game cares so your point here makes no sense. Only way he could have a Mastercrafted Power Axe (which essentially by looking at RAW cannot exist since Master Crafted is a Special Rule and we don't know what to do with a model with Special Rules) is if the word special is changed to unique in that paragraph you throw around.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:Ramses: You keep claiming this whole "check the model while writing the List"

where is the RAW on that?

Where is the rules that you have to have the Model before you write the list up?

I checked my Rulebook and all of my codices(which is, coincidentally, every codex), and I have not found 1 rules that stated you have to have the models before you write out your Armylist, nor that you determine your Power weapon type before you finish writing out that model.

And for your Variable Crozius on your wolf Priest; I take it you will be switching out your magnetized arm before you write up your list right?

What about at the concept Stage? Do you have to determine which Power weapon as soon as you settle on fielding a Wolf Priest? Or even begin to think about it? Better just have 4 Wolf priests, one with each sub-type; that way when you are contemplating taking a wolf priest and look at your model(s), you will have 1 of each.

KK, can you purchase a master-crafted power weapon or do you purchase a power weapon and then master-craft it? Simple question.

And it has absolutely nothing to do with having the model before you write the list, at all. The rules are specific in that you determine the type of power weapon when there are no further rules by what is on the model. Is master-crafted on that list of types of power weapons? You might consider adding some bedazzles to it, but that is not the criteria ofr identifying the model.

On another point, you could have all the intent when conceptualizing your army list in your mind that your HQ is going to be equipped with a master-crafted power axe. However that doesn't change the fact that you first purchased him a generic power weapon, and then master-crafted it. It didn't come master-crafted as in the instance of the Axe of Mortalis or Glaive Encarmines. That is the key difference that you keep failing to see.

Master Crafted is a Further rule though is it not?

You are claiming that before you finish writing the entry for your model(assigning the master crafted to the power weapon) you check if the power weapon has any special rules.

When you have your whatever model calculated for points cost, you have a Mastercrafted Power weapon(Which is a Power weapon that has the master crafted special rule).

Also do you even know what you are arguing at this point? Because you have muddied our discourse to the point where I do not even know if you are claiming Master crafted counts for making a power weapon unusual or not anymore(I am arguing it does not, since Master crafted is a basic special rule that can be attributed to many different weapons, and is in no way a "unique" special rule).

See that's the rub. There is no such item that is "unique" special. All we are given is regular power weapons that have no special rules attached or we are given unusual power weapons. There isn't a third option in this equation. USR's are special rules and as such don't fit in the regular power weapon entry. Whether given or purchased a master crafted power weapon is an unusual power weapon because if it isn't then it isn't a regular power weapon. Master crafted fits the rules for unusual . The only reason powerfists,hammers,lighting claws,halbreds,mauls,spears etc. are not unusual is because they are given specific rules.

So we can argue this until we are blue in the face but unless you can show that USR's are not special rules that make that item unique then they should be unusual power weapons.

chewielight wrote:
See that's the rub. There is no such item that is "unique" special. All we are given is regular power weapons that have no special rules attached or we are given unusual power weapons. There isn't a third option in this equation. USR's are special rules and as such don't fit in the regular power weapon entry. Whether given or purchased a master crafted power weapon is an unusual power weapon because if it isn't then it isn't a regular power weapon. Master crafted fits the rules for unusual . The only reason powerfists,hammers,lighting claws,halbreds,mauls,spears etc. are not unusual is because they are given specific rules.

So we can argue this until we are blue in the face but unless you can show that USR's are not special rules that make that item unique then they should be unusual power weapons.

There are plenty of weapons that have unique rules. The rules for unusual Power Weapons state they must have their own unique rules for Close Combat. A Mastercrafted Power Weapon follows the rules for a Power Weapon with a special rule added on top. Not a Unique rule. There's a huge difference between the two. I don't know how you are equating that Special = Unique when both words are clearly very different and everyone who says that a special rule makes a Power Weapon unusual is essentially saying its impossible to have a Mastercrafted Power Axe. That makes no sense. Why can't I get a Mastercrafted Power Axe if I am so able to? Or a Mastercrafted (Insert type of Power Weapon that isn't a Sword).