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The Axe Mortalis, The Executioners Axe, Glaive Encarmine: Unusual power weapons? Axes and glaives? As modeled?

I'm on the fence about this one. There is no clear advantage either way for most of these, so I don't care how it turns out, but it came up in a game today and I know it will come up again. I read it that they count as unusual power weapons, but someone else argued the other way. It does seem silly in this case to have weapons that are actually called the AXE mortalis and the executioners AXE and not have them count as axes, but this is Games Workshop we are dealing with. They probably wrote the whole book drunk.

Discuss?

Mike Leon wrote:The Axe Mortalis, The Executioners Axe, Glaive Encarmine: Unusual power weapons? Axes and glaives? As modeled?

I'm on the fence about this one. There is no clear advantage either way for most of these, so I don't care how it turns out, but it came up in a game today and I know it will come up again. I read it that they count as unusual power weapons, but someone else argued the other way. It does seem silly in this case to have weapons that are actually called the AXE mortalis and the executioners AXE and not have them count as axes, but this is Games Workshop we are dealing with. They probably wrote the whole book drunk.

Discuss?

The problem with your line of thinking, if a weapon's name references a type of weapon it must be that type of weapon. Take the glaive for example. a glaive is actually a polearm which should make it fall under the lance category, but the official models themselves are armed with swords. Another example would be Tyranid Bonesabers. A saber is a type of sword. What if I want to model a hive tyrant with a biomorph axe with a hawk-like bill that releases a powerful tentacles inside the body to rip it apart from the inside out to count as bonesabers? I use the unwieldy rule because I have modeled it that way. We have to actually reference what the model is carrying, not the type of weapon is listed in the description since those descriptions say only that the weapons you listed are power weapons.

I believe all unusual; let me flip through the BA dex for their descriptions; but any that are not simply "counts as a Power weapon" with no other special rules at all are going to be unusual power weapons.

The Axe Mortalis is the only one that might be a Plain 'ole Power Axe; but technically it being a Master crafted Power weapon makes it an unusual Power weapon.

The FAQ muddies it a bit; Crozius'(Power weapon in codex) are Power Mauls, Lemartes Blood Crozius(Master crafted Power weapons in Codex) is a Master crafted Power Maul.

If we take the Chaplain/Chaplain Lemartes FAQ Amendments as Indication then at least the Axe Mortalis is in fact a Master crafted Power Axe.

Lone Dragoon: a Glaive is not anywhere near a Lance; it is a Sword(mostly for Slashing)-on-a-stick. It is used much closer to the manner of a Halberd than a Lance, and as we know from the Power axe "look at the model" a Halberd is a Power Axe. But looking at the models; the Glaive encarmine is just a Zwei-hander with a longer-than-usual hilt.

AT any rate "unusual Power Weapons/Unusual Force weapons use their own special rules and have the AP cited in the rule book for the Unusual heading; their Form does not matter.

double post

If the Executioners Axe or any of the other weapons you listed have additional rules, other then being a Power Weapon, then they count as unusual power weapons.

If they have no additional rules, then they are what they look like they are, Power Axe, Power Sword, etc.

Lone Dragoon wrote:

Mike Leon wrote:The Axe Mortalis, The Executioners Axe, Glaive Encarmine: Unusual power weapons? Axes and glaives? As modeled?

I'm on the fence about this one. There is no clear advantage either way for most of these, so I don't care how it turns out, but it came up in a game today and I know it will come up again. I read it that they count as unusual power weapons, but someone else argued the other way. It does seem silly in this case to have weapons that are actually called the AXE mortalis and the executioners AXE and not have them count as axes, but this is Games Workshop we are dealing with. They probably wrote the whole book drunk.

Discuss?

The problem with your line of thinking, if a weapon's name references a type of weapon it must be that type of weapon. Take the glaive for example. a glaive is actually a polearm which should make it fall under the lance category, but the official models themselves are armed with swords. Another example would be Tyranid Bonesabers. A saber is a type of sword. What if I want to model a hive tyrant with a biomorph axe with a hawk-like bill that releases a powerful tentacles inside the body to rip it apart from the inside out to count as bonesabers? I use the unwieldy rule because I have modeled it that way. We have to actually reference what the model is carrying, not the type of weapon is listed in the description since those descriptions say only that the weapons you listed are power weapons.

The models are not armed with swords. They are armed with axes.

<<<<< See image to the left for the Axe Mortalis


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The argument my friend made was that the entry in the rule book for unusual power weapons says weapons with "one or more unique rules" and common USRs such as master crafted and two handed are not "unique" rules.

In that case the Axe Mortalis would be an axe, the Glaive Encarmines would be whatever the models are holding (a mix of swords and axes) and The Executioners Axe would be an unusual power weapon (because it has a unique rule that it forces rerolls for invulnerable saves).

Mike Leon wrote:

Lone Dragoon wrote:

Mike Leon wrote:The Axe Mortalis, The Executioners Axe, Glaive Encarmine: Unusual power weapons? Axes and glaives? As modeled?

I'm on the fence about this one. There is no clear advantage either way for most of these, so I don't care how it turns out, but it came up in a game today and I know it will come up again. I read it that they count as unusual power weapons, but someone else argued the other way. It does seem silly in this case to have weapons that are actually called the AXE mortalis and the executioners AXE and not have them count as axes, but this is Games Workshop we are dealing with. They probably wrote the whole book drunk.

Discuss?

The problem with your line of thinking, if a weapon's name references a type of weapon it must be that type of weapon. Take the glaive for example. a glaive is actually a polearm which should make it fall under the lance category, but the official models themselves are armed with swords. Another example would be Tyranid Bonesabers. A saber is a type of sword. What if I want to model a hive tyrant with a biomorph axe with a hawk-like bill that releases a powerful tentacles inside the body to rip it apart from the inside out to count as bonesabers? I use the unwieldy rule because I have modeled it that way. We have to actually reference what the model is carrying, not the type of weapon is listed in the description since those descriptions say only that the weapons you listed are power weapons.

The models are not armed with swords. They are armed with axes.

<<<<< See image to the left for the Axe Mortalis

The official model is armed like that. However if I wanted to kitbash my own model up using say the death company kit for the armor and the sanguinary guard kit for the mask and weapon and I wanted to us that model "counts as" Dante for say the Knights of Blood successor chapter with a sword (the glaive encarmine sword to be exact). The rules say it is a master crafted power weapon. Nothing I have done has broken the rules, and because it is modeled with a sword I use that profile from the rulebook.

Assuming we extend the Lemartes/Basic Chaplains Crozius'; Yes, however you model the Axe Mortalis, will dictate which kind of Master crafted Power weapon it is.

Glaives may be the same way.

It really depends on if you consider Special rules that are not the same as the special rules listed for Power Sword, Power Axe, Power Maul, and Power Lance to be "unique" or not.

Personally I say they are, as Master crafted is not Concussive, nor unwieldy, it is a special rule that is Unique to that weapon, and not added via some other special rule.

Now if we do not Extend our Chaplain friends, then no matter how you model the Axe Mortalis, it will be a Master crafted AP3 melee weapon that strikes with the user's Strength.

Nice find Kommissar Kel. I didn't even realize Lemartes had a master crafted weapon as well.

The FAQ says you DO extend the power maul rules to Lemartes master crafted power weapon.

The rules given in the codex for his weapon are EXACTLY the same as the Axe Mortalis.

So that would indicate that it DOES count as a power axe.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Lone Dragoon: a Glaive is not anywhere near a Lance; it is a Sword(mostly for Slashing)-on-a-stick. It is used much closer to the manner of a Halberd than a Lance, and as we know from the Power axe "look at the model" a Halberd is a Power Axe. But looking at the models; the Glaive encarmine is just a Zwei-hander with a longer-than-usual hilt.

AT any rate "unusual Power Weapons/Unusual Force weapons use their own special rules and have the AP cited in the rule book for the Unusual heading; their Form does not matter.

I'm just using the looks of one. While a glaive could stab, it was actually used more like you said, a slashing weapon. Since spears count as lances for rules sake, I just went with that. Either way it's just arguing semantics at this point, and isn't really worth getting into.

Sanguinary Guard are armed with Master Crafted Power Weapons, which are not special power weapons. So they are whatever they are modeled as, and have the Master Crafted special rule. The models have either swords or axes IIRC.

Well, Executioner's Axe is most definitely a unique power weapon. Two-handed axe that strikes at str 6 and causes invuln saves to be re-rolled. It has its own unique close-combat rules and should not suffer from unwieldy.

Glaive Encarmines are the same. It's a two-handed master-crafted power weapon. Really though it's not much different than saying it's a power sword because they are both AP 3 anyway.

Axe Mortalis I would consider to have its own unique rules as well because it is master-crafted, thus it's an AP 3 power weapon wielded at user str and does not suffer from unwieldy.

I mean, the rule seems quite clear to me. pg 61 "Many models have unusual power weapons that have one or more unique rules. If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP 3 melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry.

Seems pretty clear to me. These weapons all have unique rules (power axes aren't all master crafted). These weapons are unique to the characters, and I believe that is the intent.

Master Crafted doesn't make them a unique power weapon. Its just an additional special rule that can be applied to anything.

robzidious wrote:Well, Executioner's Axe is most definitely a unique power weapon. Two-handed axe that strikes at str 6 and causes invuln saves to be re-rolled. It has its own unique close-combat rules and should not suffer from unwieldy.

Glaive Encarmines are the same. It's a two-handed master-crafted power weapon. Really though it's not much different than saying it's a power sword because they are both AP 3 anyway.

Axe Mortalis I would consider to have its own unique rules as well because it is master-crafted, thus it's an AP 3 power weapon wielded at user str and does not suffer from unwieldy.

I mean, the rule seems quite clear to me. pg 61 "Many models have unusual power weapons that have one or more unique rules. If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP 3 melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry.

Seems pretty clear to me. These weapons all have unique rules (power axes aren't all master crafted). These weapons are unique to the characters, and I believe that is the intent.

This exactly.

This has been going on with Logan's Axe of Morkai where people are saying because it is modeled as an axe and named as an axe, you somehow disregard the specific wording of the rule that calls it a frost blade.

In the case of BA, they are all unusual power weapons that have one or more unique rules. The fact that it could be master crafted, str 9000, or bedazzled with Twilight movie quotes makes them fall under the AP3 classification for unusual power weapons.

Grey Templar wrote:Master Crafted doesn't make them a unique power weapon. Its just an additional special rule that can be applied to anything.

I disagree. Look under the profiles for the weapons. Basic weapons all have designations for special rules. Unwieldy, concussive, etc. It could be applied to anything yes, but if that were the case with these weapons they would have amended them in the FAQ for the codex BAs. Take Lemartes for example. They specifically pointed out that his weapon was a master-crafted power maul. If they took the time to amend that, then they would have done so for the other weapons used by Astorath, Dante, and the Sanguinary Guard as well. They didn't because they are treated as unique power weapons.

It gets really weird if you start applying master crafted to generic power weapons from the Black Templar Codex. In that book you can make any power weapon master crafted for an extra 15 pts. So say you take a power weapon on your captain and it looks like a maul so it counts as a power maul. So then you pay 15 pts to make it master crafted, and just like that it's no longer a maul. It's an ap3 power weapon.

Grey Templar wrote:Master Crafted doesn't make them a unique power weapon. Its just an additional special rule that can be applied to anything.

According to Types of Power Weapons special rules are not allowed and master-crafted is in the special rules section. Same with two-handed.

Radiation wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Master Crafted doesn't make them a unique power weapon. Its just an additional special rule that can be applied to anything.

According to Types of Power Weapons special rules are not allowed and master-crafted is in the special rules section. Same with two-handed.

Exactly...which is why they are unique power weapons. It even says under that section If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules look at the model to tell which type of power weapon is has. Master-crafted and two-handed are further special rules, thus these default to unusual power weapons.


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Mike Leon wrote:It gets really weird if you start applying master crafted to generic power weapons from the Black Templar Codex. In that book you can make any power weapon master crafted for an extra 15 pts. So say you take a power weapon on your captain and it looks like a maul so it counts as a power maul. So then you pay 15 pts to make it master crafted, and just like that it's no longer a maul. It's an ap3 power weapon.

No, this is different. It is a power weapon which fits whatever it looks like, you just paid 15 more points for the master-crafted special rule.

According to pg 61 "Many models have unusual power weapons that have one or more unique rules. If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP 3 melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry. "

Master Crafted is a Special rule, and things like Executioner's Axe have "its own unique close combat rules". Dante's Axe only has Master Crafted, I would think that is a Master Crafted Power Axe. Grey Knights have the option to Master Craft their Swords, Halberds, Staves, ext. so would things like the staves lose their stave stats when they are Master Crafted?

Mike Leon wrote:
It gets really weird if you start applying master crafted to generic power weapons from the Black Templar Codex. In that book you can make any power weapon master crafted for an extra 15 pts. So say you take a power weapon on your captain and it looks like a maul so it counts as a power maul. So then you pay 15 pts to make it master crafted, and just like that it's no longer a maul. It's an ap3 power weapon.


No, this is different. It is a power weapon which fits whatever it looks like, you just paid 15 more points for the master-crafted special rule.

That I don't agree with. You need to go one way or the other. A master crafted power weapon is a master crafted power weapon.

Mike Leon wrote:

Mike Leon wrote:
It gets really weird if you start applying master crafted to generic power weapons from the Black Templar Codex. In that book you can make any power weapon master crafted for an extra 15 pts. So say you take a power weapon on your captain and it looks like a maul so it counts as a power maul. So then you pay 15 pts to make it master crafted, and just like that it's no longer a maul. It's an ap3 power weapon.


No, this is different. It is a power weapon which fits whatever it looks like, you just paid 15 more points for the master-crafted special rule.

That I don't agree with. You need to go one way or the other. A master crafted power weapon is a master crafted power weapon.

I understand, but the difference being, they don't designate Dante's weapon as a power axe in the FAQ. In the Templars example you provide they say, you can make any power weapon master crafted for 15 points. Then you refer to the rulebook for what replaces "power weapon" and it defaults to what it looks like on the model thus a power maul on a templar with the 15pts extra is just a power maul with the additional master crafted special rule.

They may very well amend Dante's entry in the FAQ and call it a power axe because it is only master crafted and has no other special rule associated with it. Just seems to me that if they took the time to do that with Lemartes then they certainly would have done it with one of the most well known BA characters if they intended it to be treated as just a power axe that was master crafted.

Both arguments are logically sound. It seems that there is no easy answer for this at the moment other then to use player discretion. Although I have argued for AP 3 Melee, I would prefer that there be more variety to the weapons in question. Having a mix of stats for SG glaives seems way more fun then all AP 3, especially when modeled differently. I would have no problem playing it either way so I would simply ask what my opponent prefered or leave it to chance with a roll of the dice. I think the axe stats are a substantial buff and change the way Dante works and I have no problem with that. Since SG can already take PFs I don't see much issue with axe stats although it still can be considered a buff, do to increased variety of choice. At this point my preference is for the use of master-crafted Power axe stats. If it becomes a problem roll the dice, or concede the issue to your opponent and beat them anyways.

The more I have thought about this, I believe I may have been wrong based on the wording of the rules. It says in the rulebook that if some entry says "power weapon" you refer to what it is modeled as and use that. Thus Dante's would be a power axe, Astorath's would be a power axe, and SG would be based on whatever is modeled at the time, of course including all their special rules as well.

I think the need to clarify Lemartes' weapon (as with all Chaplains) was to define what a crozius should be in general (a power maul).

I believe the intent with "unique" power weapons was those that don't fall in the categories of sword, axe, maul, and lance, and are not easily identified. The wording of having special rules of their own (i.e. Astorath's axe) make this confusing. Either way GW needs to clarify.

Lone Dragoon wrote: Take the glaive for example. a glaive is actually a polearm which should make it fall under the lance category, but the official models themselves are armed with swords.

Actually, "Glaive" can mean many different types of weapons, and has been that way for centuries.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/glaive

And now you're exactly where I am.

I feel like every time I read page 61 in the rulebook I switch sides on this. It really isn't clear enough.

I believe the intent was meant for some of these Xenos armies in the case where their "power weapons" aren't easily identifiable as one of the 4 types and has its own special rules. If a character is modeled with an axe power weapon then it should be an axe, sword is a sword, etc.

But then it becomes confusing because Astorath's axe is a str 6 weapon (rather than the +1 bonus applied to power axes...I believe that's right...don't have the rulebook in front of me). So, in that case, would you say Astorath has a power axe with Str 6, AP 2, unwieldy, melee, and then all his other special rules attached? Or because of the str of the weapon is it a "unique power weapon" thus being AP 3 and not having unwieldy?

That unwieldy really nerfs the hell out of Astorath considering he'll be striking at initiative step 1 and could either be dead by then or not have any targets in b2b contact.

robzidious wrote:I believe the intent was meant for some of these Xenos armies in the case where their "power weapons" aren't easily identifiable as one of the 4 types and has its own special rules. If a character is modeled with an axe power weapon then it should be an axe, sword is a sword, etc.

But then it becomes confusing because Astorath's axe is a str 6 weapon (rather than the +1 bonus applied to power axes...I believe that's right...don't have the rulebook in front of me). So, in that case, would you say Astorath has a power axe with Str 6, AP 2, unwieldy, melee, and then all his other special rules attached? Or because of the str of the weapon is it a "unique power weapon" thus being AP 3 and not having unwieldy?

That unwieldy really nerfs the hell out of Astorath considering he'll be striking at initiative step 1 and could either be dead by then or not have any targets in b2b contact.

Astorath is a strange example because his weapon has truly unique rules. I'm fairly certain that his axe counts as unusual because of all the crazy stuff that it does already (reroll invulnerables, STR6). I would say a relic blade is also unusual. The book is pretty clear on that.

It's the master crafted and two handed stuff that is really murky, because those rules are not unique. Look at the Black Templar example. You can make anything master crafted in that book. So then is it also unusual?

Hello there,

I thought i'd pitch in on this being a BA Player and using Dante, The Sanquinor, Astorath and Sanguinary Gurad all quite freequently.

I'm hearing the argument regarding unique rules and agree that weapons such as Astoraths axe would fall into this catagory what with it striking at strength 6 and forcing re-rolled saves ergo it would be AP3, but the sticking point for me is that word "unique" I really dont think "Master Crafted" and "Two Handed" would fall under the guise of "Unique" I mean hell they are both in the Universal "Special" Rules section of the book, the Unusual Power Weapons bit makes no mention of "Special" rules at all.

Now that would indeed mean that Sanguinary Guard would have whatever they were modeled with, Dante Would Have an Axe and the Sanguinor would have a Sword, wich whilst cool would be kind of rubish for Dante as it would ruin his mighty Initiative 6, shame that.

All of the above is simply the way I see it and the way i will put it to my gaming group, I do completely agree that this needs aditional FAQ'ing.

PS someone lese already did make an interesting point though in that they have set the precedent with Lermartes by stating that his Master Crafted wepon is not an "Unusual" one, food for thought.

It all comes down to the word unique. unique can mean different things to different people.

In my opinion it refers to weapons that have rules already attached to them in the weapon entry. If you are paying points to upgrade a weapon that was stock to begin with, it wasn't a unique weapon so should be treated like it was modeled.

This rule is here as to not Nerf special characters who have cool unique weapons. But i feel that both on here and with people I've talked to, people are trying to find a way to skew the rule just to get whatever weapon they personally think would be most beneficial on whatever model they have.

Just my opinion.

Dragosanii12 wrote:
Now that would indeed mean that Sanguinary Guard would have whatever they were modeled with, Dante Would Have an Axe and the Sanguinor would have a Sword, wich whilst cool would be kind of rubish for Dante as it would ruin his mighty Initiative 6, shame that.

Which is the main reason I do believe they intended Dante's to be a "unique" weapon striking at AP 3. Why give a special character an init. 6 when he's going to strike at 1 every time?


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dionysus wrote:
In my opinion it refers to weapons that have rules already attached to them in the weapon entry. If you are paying points to upgrade a weapon that was stock to begin with, it wasn't a unique weapon so should be treated like it was modeled.

I agree with this entirely. I believe this was the intent they had when they wrote it as well.