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Brother Ramses wrote:So again since everyone absolutely failes to see the obvious,

Does a default power weapon come master-crafted?

No.

Does the Axe of Mortalis do something different then a default power weapon?

Yes.

How is this even a debate? Arguing over the semantics of unique, special, and universal rules? It is like 6th edition released a bunch of new graduated rules lawyers school that barely passed the bar exam. Let's make this simple;

Is the power axe that I buy for my Grey Hunter to carry the exact same as the Axe of Mortalis in function?

No.

And for those of you that keep bringing up the Black Templar example;

You buy a power weapon. It's type is established by what you have modeled on the model, let's say type X. You then mastcraft that type X power weapon. You cannot mastercraft something that has not yet purchased.

Edit:

I would even go as far to say that you class your BT models power weapon when you initially model it, which is long before you ever mastercraft it.

Well yeah, so the Axe Mortalis is an Axe, that is Master Crafted.

Its not an unusual power weapon

So its still Str +1, AP 2, Unwieldy, but also Master Crafted.

It has to have UNIQUE special rules to be Unusual. Master Crafted is not a Unique Special Rule by any definition.

Kiredor wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:So again since everyone absolutely failes to see the obvious,

Does a default power weapon come master-crafted?

No.

Does the Axe of Mortalis do something different then a default power weapon?

Yes.

How is this even a debate? Arguing over the semantics of unique, special, and universal rules? It is like 6th edition released a bunch of new graduated rules lawyers school that barely passed the bar exam. Let's make this simple;

Is the power axe that I buy for my Grey Hunter to carry the exact same as the Axe of Mortalis in function?

No.

And for those of you that keep bringing up the Black Templar example;

You buy a power weapon. It's type is established by what you have modeled on the model, let's say type X. You then mastcraft that type X power weapon. You cannot mastercraft something that has not yet purchased.

Edit:

I would even go as far to say that you class your BT models power weapon when you initially model it, which is long before you ever mastercraft it.

Well yeah, so the Axe Mortalis is an Axe, that is Master Crafted.

Its not an unusual power weapon

So its still Str +1, AP 2, Unwieldy, but also Master Crafted.

It has to have UNIQUE special rules to be Unusual. Master Crafted is not a Unique Special Rule by any definition.

By RAW this is the most accurate interpretation, though it still doesn't make any sense that Commander Dante would strike last in any situation.

Yeah, "...own unique rules..." means exactly that.


The Executioners Axe's +2Str is a unique rule,

a Nemisis Halberd's +2I is a unique rule,

an Agonizer's "always wounds on a 4+" is a unique rule,

two handed is NOT a unique rule, its a USR,

master crafted is NOT a unique rule, its a USR,

shred is NOT a unique rule, its a USR,

...

Grey Templar wrote:Yeah, "...own unique rules..." means exactly that.


The Executioners Axe's +2Str is a unique rule,

a Nemisis Halberd's +2I is a unique rule,

an Agonizer's "always wounds on a 4+" is a unique rule,

two handed is NOT a unique rule, its a USR,

master crafted is NOT a unique rule, its a USR,

shred is NOT a unique rule, its a USR,

...

This is how I read it too.

winterman wrote:This really comes down to two parts of the power weapon rules.

Part 1
Premise 1

If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has: (weapon descriptions here)

This seems pretty clear, you only look at the model for guidance if its a plain power weapon with no special rules.

Premise 2
Master Crafted and two handed are in the special rules section and are thus clearly defined as special rules

Conclusion
A power weapon with master crafted and or two-handed cannot use the 'look at the model' rules for determining what sort of power weapon it has

.....

If we assume Part 1 is correct we are left with two options with Axe Mortalis and Blades Encarmine:
1) Treat power weapons with special rules as Unusual Power Weapons and thuse AP3 Melee weapons
2) Not treat them as such and have no way of knowing how to treat them, since they are specifically disallowed from being Axes, Swords, Mauls or Lances.

You win the thread dude. Anything with a special rule is either unique, or we have no idea under the rules on how to treat it.

Ok hold on... where are we getting the wording for "unique" rules? ...I see the "no further special rules" ...and based on that wording I can almost agree with winterman.

Gunzhard wrote:Ok hold on... where are we getting the wording for "unique" rules? ...I see the "no further special rules" ...and based on that wording I can almost agree with winterman.

Page 61? Under 'Unusual Power Weapons.' That's the wording. Doesn't explain what "unique" is. Oh GW. What is clear though is that anything with a "special rule" DOES NOT involve "look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has..." The 'look and see' rule is only for power weapons with no special rules.

Gunzhard wrote:

Kiredor wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:So again since everyone absolutely failes to see the obvious,

Does a default power weapon come master-crafted?

No.

Does the Axe of Mortalis do something different then a default power weapon?

Yes.

How is this even a debate? Arguing over the semantics of unique, special, and universal rules? It is like 6th edition released a bunch of new graduated rules lawyers school that barely passed the bar exam. Let's make this simple;

Is the power axe that I buy for my Grey Hunter to carry the exact same as the Axe of Mortalis in function?

No.

And for those of you that keep bringing up the Black Templar example;

You buy a power weapon. It's type is established by what you have modeled on the model, let's say type X. You then mastcraft that type X power weapon. You cannot mastercraft something that has not yet purchased.

Edit:

I would even go as far to say that you class your BT models power weapon when you initially model it, which is long before you ever mastercraft it.

Well yeah, so the Axe Mortalis is an Axe, that is Master Crafted.

Its not an unusual power weapon

So its still Str +1, AP 2, Unwieldy, but also Master Crafted.

It has to have UNIQUE special rules to be Unusual. Master Crafted is not a Unique Special Rule by any definition.

By RAW this is the most accurate interpretation, though it still doesn't make any sense that Commander Dante would strike last in any situation.

This is the farthest from RAW then you can get. The fact that some Joe Schmoe on the internet is claiming that mastercrafted is not a unique rule for a weapon that by default is NEVER mastercrafted based on his personal definition of what is unique and what isn't is as RAI as you could possibly get. "Unique" according to some guy on the internet?

Barring Warhammer 40k defined characterisitcs of what is unusual or special, you need to compare the basic properties of what constitutes the default characteristics and what you are presented with. A default power weapon does not ever come mastercrafted, unless it is a special weapon. It is unusual for a power weapon to be mastercrafted because by default they are never mastercrafted.

Well Brother Ramses / AKA Another "some guy on the internet"... there is still plenty of room for debate.

The USR's associated with these weapons are now _standard_ rules described generically in the rulebook.

We have a typical power weapon + a typical USR ...does that automatically make it "unique"... your opinion is yes. I hope you are right but there is no way to infer a definitive answer from the given information.

GW will have to address this one.

I have not seen many people assume that universal rules are unique.

Brother Ramses wrote: A default power weapon does not ever come mastercrafted, unless it is a special weapon.

The weapons of the Sanguinary guard would like to have a word with you.

Gunzhard wrote:We have a typical power weapon + a typical USR ...does that automatically make it "unique"... your opinion is yes.

But we all agree power weapon + USR makes it special, right? Therefore we cannot use the "look and see" rule to determine the type of power weapon. What we can use instead, is up in the air.


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kirsanth wrote:I have not seen many people assume that universal rules are unique.

But universal special rules are surely special?

Brother Ramses wrote:This is the farthest from RAW then you can get. The fact that some Joe Schmoe on the internet is claiming that mastercrafted is not a unique rule for a weapon that by default is NEVER mastercrafted based on his personal definition of what is unique and what isn't is as RAI as you could possibly get. "Unique" according to some guy on the internet?

Barring Warhammer 40k defined characterisitcs of what is unusual or special, you need to compare the basic properties of what constitutes the default characteristics and what you are presented with. A default power weapon does not ever come mastercrafted, unless it is a special weapon. It is unusual for a power weapon to be mastercrafted because by default they are never mastercrafted.

Not according to some guy on the internet but logic. Logically speaking there would not be a rule to cover something that is in the game. Although the wording of the power weapons is not 100% clear the wording for what qualifies as an unusual weapon is. If it has "Unique" rules it is an unusual weapon. So, we can thus state as a general rule that the rule book gives us two options for power weapons: weapons with unique rules or weapons without. Now since you have a problem with this word lets take this apart logically. The definition of unique is, according to a dictionary and not just some guy on the internet, (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/unique) being the only one, being without a like or equal, unusual. Now lets logically break this down. Is Dante the only one with a master-crafted weapon? No, Sanguinary Guard have them, Captain Shrike has two, Vulkan He'Stan has one. So we can logically say that Master-crafted is not unique. We can't say that Master crafted weapons are without like or equal, since many people have them, so that definition is out. The description also says, according to the BRB, that master-crafting is the pinnacle of weaponsmiths. Since there is more than one weaponsmith in the galaxy, and each one has made more than one weapon in their lifetime, master-crafted weapons are far from without like or equal. Then the final definition is unusual. Is an axe crafted by the most accomplished artisans of the Chapter unusual? No, it is just an axe that was made for Dante. Is a relic blade unusual? Yes, because it does something that normal two-handed weapons don't do. Is the Executioners Axe unusual? Yes, it is an axe that increases str by 2. No other axe does that so it is unusual. Is an axe that is master-crafted unusual? No, because there is at least one other axe in the galaxy that is like it. So, by that logic having a master-crafted weapon is not unusual. In conclusion, since these weapons are not the only ones, without like or equal, or unusual, they are not unique.

Now, unless you are actually claiming that master-crafted power weapons do not have any rules at all then you must agree they fall under regular power weapons to determine their AP/str/and intiative.

Captain Antivas wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:This is the farthest from RAW then you can get. The fact that some Joe Schmoe on the internet is claiming that mastercrafted is not a unique rule for a weapon that by default is NEVER mastercrafted based on his personal definition of what is unique and what isn't is as RAI as you could possibly get. "Unique" according to some guy on the internet?

Barring Warhammer 40k defined characterisitcs of what is unusual or special, you need to compare the basic properties of what constitutes the default characteristics and what you are presented with. A default power weapon does not ever come mastercrafted, unless it is a special weapon. It is unusual for a power weapon to be mastercrafted because by default they are never mastercrafted.

Not according to some guy on the internet but logic. Logically speaking there would not be a rule to cover something that is in the game. Although the wording of the power weapons is not 100% clear the wording for what qualifies as an unusual weapon is. If it has "Unique" rules it is an unusual weapon. So, we can thus state as a general rule that the rule book gives us two options for power weapons: weapons with unique rules or weapons without. Now since you have a problem with this word lets take this apart logically. The definition of unique is, according to a dictionary and not just some guy on the internet, (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/unique) being the only one, being without a like or equal, unusual. Now lets logically break this down. Is Dante the only one with a master-crafted weapon? No, Sanguinary Guard have them, Captain Shrike has two, Vulkan He'Stan has one. So we can logically say that Master-crafted is not unique. We can't say that Master crafted weapons are without like or equal, since many people have them, so that definition is out. The description also says, according to the BRB, that master-crafting is the pinnacle of weaponsmiths. Since there is more than one weaponsmith in the galaxy, and each one has made more than one weapon in their lifetime, master-crafted weapons are far from without like or equal. Then the final definition is unusual. Is an axe crafted by the most accomplished artisans of the Chapter unusual? No, it is just an axe that was made for Dante. Is a relic blade unusual? Yes, because it does something that normal two-handed weapons don't do. Is the Executioners Axe unusual? Yes, it is an axe that increases str by 2. No other axe does that so it is unusual. Is an axe that is master-crafted unusual? No, because there is at least one other axe in the galaxy that is like it. So, by that logic having a master-crafted weapon is not unusual. In conclusion, since these weapons are not the only ones, without like or equal, or unusual, they are not unique.

Now, unless you are actually claiming that master-crafted power weapons do not have any rules at all then you must agree they fall under regular power weapons to determine their AP/str/and intiative.

Because regular power weapons let you reroll one missed hit per turn when using the weapon in melee right.....ohhh wait....


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DeathReaper wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote: A default power weapon does not ever come mastercrafted, unless it is a special weapon.

The weapons of the Sanguinary guard would like to have a word with you.

Mind showing me in thr weapon appendix where a mastercrafted power weapon is listed? There is a listing for a Glaive Encarmine, that is a twohanded mastercrafted power weapon, but there is absolutely no listing for a mastercrafted power weapon.

So again, power weapons by default, are never mastercrafted. Trying to use sang guard as an example of default mastercrafted power weapons is a fallacy, because sang guard are equipped with Glaive Encarmine by default whose rules are a twohanded mastercrafted power weapon.

Brother Rameses, Master Crafted is not Unique.

Antivas provided a dictionary definition.

I'm going to repeat that I consider UNIVERSAL special rules not UNIQUE

If it is NOT UNIQUE, it is NOT UNUSUAL. By RAW.

If you consider just having a USR to make it Unique, despite there being many other weapons with identical rules, then thats for you and your opponent.

Once again, the wording for Unusual weapons require one or more Unique Special Rules.

Kiredor wrote:Brother Rameses, Master Crafted is not Unique.

Antivas provided a dictionary definition.

I'm going to repeat that I consider UNIVERSAL special rules not UNIQUE

If it is NOT UNIQUE, it is NOT UNUSUAL. By RAW.

If you consider just having a USR to make it Unique, despite there being many other weapons with identical rules, then thats for you and your opponent.

Once again, the wording for Unusual weapons require one or more Unique Special Rules.

So the crux of your argument is RAI because you don't CONSIDER universal special rules to be unique. Gotcha.

And the frost blade that I give my wolf lord and also give one of my wolf guard is the exact same. Oops, they must not be unique then?

Frost Blades are not Power Weapons

They have a profile that makes them Str +1, AP 3, or S+2, AP 2 Unwieldy, as per the SW FAQ

They are not unusual power weapons, because they are no longer power weapons, and thus don't refer to the rules.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Lemartes has a Master Crafted Power Maul.

By your definition this is an Unusual power weapon, thus has none of the Maul rules.

Why bother FAQing it then?

Kiredor wrote:Frost Blades are not Power Weapons

They have a profile that makes them Str +1, AP 3, or S+2, AP 2 Unwieldy, as per the SW FAQ

They are not unusual power weapons, because they are no longer power weapons, and thus don't refer to the rules.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Lemartes has a Master Crafted Power Maul.

By your definition this is an Unusual power weapon, thus has none of the Maul rules.

Why bother FAQing it then?

Frost Blades are str1, ap3
Frost Axes are str2, ap2, Unwieldy

Hence if my Wolf Lord has a frost blade it should be modeled as a blade and if my wolf guard has a frost axe it should be modeled as an axe.

Bad choice on Lemartes as it was SPECIFICALLY addressed in the FAQ to become what it was deemed. You see a FAQ for the Axe of Mortalis? Prior to the FAQ, Lemartes was indeed armed with an ap3 master crafted power weapon per the 6th edition rules.

No, by your definition he still is

Because he has a special rule, Master Crafted, which makes it Unusual.

The problem is, there is no such thing as a basic Power Weapon, there are no rules for it. Its either a sword, mace, axe or lance.

The only other option is Unusual.

So either we take what the model is armed with as a definition, or all weapons with special rules are unusual. There are no rules that deal with the middle ground, which there should be.

Unique weapons have their own rules, perfect example is the Executioner's axe, reroll invulnerable saves.

Master-crafted is not unique and never will be. So you can't claim anything with Mastercrafted is 'an unusual weapon that strikes at AP3'

Since the rulebook doesn't say how to deal with power weapons with universal special rules, it doesn't say it. But you can't take an absence of information about how to treat master crafted power weapons as an excuse to re-invent the words 'unique' and 'unusual' so you have have whatever outcome you want.

By the By, +1 Str AP2 at I1 on a model with a 2+ save far outways striking at base str AP3 at whatever initiative you want. Welcome to 6th Edition and pray Dante is FAQed to use the Axe rules.

You are right, there is no such thing as a basic power weapon anymore. There are power swords, master-crafted power swords, rending power swords, rending master-crafted power swords, power axes, master-crafted power axes, etc...they follow the rules for what they are. Unless they have a unique rule that no one else has. The emphasis being no one else has. (referring to the definition of unique earlier) Since there are other units who could have an axe that is master-crafted it is not unique. Since a Glaive Encarmine is an axe it is a 2-handed master-crafted power axe. It hits at init1, adds 1 to str, and is ap2.

The problem here is that we are using two definitions for the same word. There are two kinds of special rules: universal and codex-specific. In the sentence regarding power weapons it says "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules..." And that is what we are getting hung up on. That phrase no further special rules could have two meanings: universal special rules or codex-specific special rules.

The section on unusual power weapons says "If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules..." It is clear that the phrase unique close combat rules refers to codex-specific special rules because those are, by definition, unique. No other codex has relic blades so they are ap3 power weapons because no one else has the same rules. No other codex has gauss weapons so they are a codex specific special rule.

Now that we have gotten to that point why, logically speaking, would GW write one section excluding universal special rules then write another section that also ignores universal special rules? They didn't, they wrote one section that includes universal special rules, the section on Power Weapons, and they wrote another section to cover the special weapons that don't fall into the general categories of weapons.


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Halfpast_Yellow wrote:By the By, +1 Str AP2 at I1 on a model with a 2+ save far outways striking at base str AP3 at whatever initiative you want. Welcome to 6th Edition and pray Dante is FAQed to use the Axe rules.

Dante does use the axe rules. He strikes at init 1, ap2, +1 str.

I know he does. That was for the players who can't seem to accept that.

So alittle off topic but same line of resoning with all the above, could you say that since the Axe Mortalis is a named weapon could it be an unusual weapon. I bring it up since i use Vulkan He'stan who has under the new rules a lance type so he goes up to St7 on the charge AP3, or normally St6 AP4' or does it come down to as the Cpt above said an AP3 unusual power weapon?

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:I know he does. That was for the players who can't seem to accept that.

Sorry, I misunderstood.

lichkitten wrote:So alittle off topic but same line of resoning with all the above, could you say that since the Axe Mortalis is a named weapon could it be an unusual weapon. I bring it up since i use Vulkan He'stan who has under the new rules a lance type so he goes up to St7 on the charge AP3, or normally St6 AP4' or does it come down to as the Cpt above said an AP3 unusual power weapon?

Having a name doesn't make the rules unique. He'Stan however does not fall under that. Since a relic blade has unique rules He'Stan's master-crafted relic blade is an ap3 weapon that follows the rules listed in the codex.

Thank god for that with Vulkan anyway, so by that reasoning the glave encarmines are unusual PWs no arguments from me since they only exist in the BA codex, the black sword in BT is aswell (my friend put a mace on hes years ago). So just my condolences for the I1 Dante Because hes Glave buddies go first.

Master-crafted and Power Weapon rules can both apply to a weapon. They can be separated. I can find rules for Master-Crafted and for Power weapons.

Stating that there is no rule for Master-crafted power weapons is like me stating that there is no entry for Jump Monstrous Creature. There are rules for Jump units and rules for monstrous creatures.

Applying a USR to a weapon does not make it unique. It states there are additional rules that apply to this weapon in question. For Dante it is this:

Dante is equipped with a Master Crafted weapon that is a Power Weapon and by looking at the model we see it is a power Axe.

Astorath is equipped with a Power Weapon that allows him to strike at S6 and requires invulnerable saves to be rerolled.

For Dante I can look up all of his weapons rules in the Main rule book. There is nothing special about it. It is a Master Crafted Weapon and a Power Weapon.

For Astorath I must look up the weapons rules in the codex. These rules are more specific then those in the Main rule book. Nowhere is there a USR that requires succesful saves to be rerolled.

Master Crafted and Power Weapons are two rules that apply to a weapon. They are distinct parts. Apply the one then the other. I apply the Power Weapon rules then I apply the master crafted rules.

Glaives are not unusual weapons as stated on Pg 61.
If I add rending to a model with a power weapon does it suddenly because a specialized weapon? No it does not. Only if I state that all To Wound rolls of a 4,5,6 cause an AP2 hit makes it a unusual rule.

Master Crafted does not make a unique rule. Master Crafted is generalized. Thus power weapons that are master crafted follow the rules for power weapons as stated on pg 61 first column. They also follow the rules for master crafted on page 39.

I think the only sane way to look at this is realize that GW was sloppy with their wording. Page 61 clearly states you look at the model when the power weapon has no special rules. Dante's power weapon has a special rule. But you only consider AP3 when it has unique rules. It doesn't make sense to treat a special rule as a unique rule. Therefore, you don't look at the model, and you don't have an instruction to make it AP3.

Clearly, GW realized they needed to clarify some special characters by FAQ, but probably just need to clarify every special character. Until then, look to either agree with your opponent, or hope the 4+ roll off goes your way.

The problem is, and this is one that I think Brother Rameses was trying to get across is that the only time we look at the model to see what kind of weapon it is is when it has NO SPECIAL RULES.

Dante's axe has special rules

However, it is not an Unusual Power Weapon, because it has no UNIQUE rules. Two different requirements. Since there are no rules for power weapons that don't fall into the 4 categories provided we have three options.

1. They are Unusual

2. They are what they look like

3. They have Strength as User AP -, since nothing tells us otherwise.

Personally i think 2, but 1 is also possible. 3 is stupid, but tecnhically RAW as I read it.

Lichkitten wrote:Thank god for that with Vulkan anyway, so by that reasoning the glave encarmines are unusual PWs no arguments from me since they only exist in the BA codex, the black sword in BT is aswell (my friend put a mace on hes years ago). So just my condolences for the I1 Dante Because hes Glave buddies go first.

What rogueeyes said is 100% true. Since the Glaive Encarmines can be broken down to a weapon that is 2-handed, a power weapon, and master-crafted. A relic blade strikes at +2 str but specifically states that you can never get an extra attack. That extra special rule makes it unusual.

Here is the Bottom line: Despite how strong everyone is in their convictions - It IS debatable. Period.

Look at my avatar... nobody wants Dante to strike at I6 more than me, but there is NO indisputable answer at this time.

We can all agree here that "some guy from the internet" said this or that, but it's still a potential disagreement when you sit down to actually play a game with some non-BA player. GW must address this for an "official" answer.