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Does it really matter? Anything definted as a power weapon is now AP3, plus whatever else it was. So a power weapon that always wounded on 3+, now wounds on 3+ and is AP3. A Power Weapon that gives you +2 initiative now gives you +2 initiative and is AP3.

Joe Mama, im leaning towards the opposite, but with the addendum that named weapons are all unusual unless specified otherwise.



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Testify, no,

There is no longer an ap value for power weapons

only swords, axes, mauls, lances and unusual weapons.

Formosa wrote:so from the locked thread..

my master of the ravenwing has a MC power weapon, its described in the fluff as the Raven SWORD, now can i change it to a Lance (mainly due to rule of cool) or would i have to stick to use it as an "unsual" power weapon (due to being MC) ?

From the rules right now, fluff doesn't matter, and if the codex says 'power weapon' and not 'power sword', and it also gives it the MC special rule, then the stats for the weapon isn't based on the "look at the model and see" rule. It wouldn't be "unusual" because it doesn't seem to have a "unique" rule, unless "unique" is supposed to be synonymous with "special." So my answer is - Rules as Written I have no clue. However if this gets cleared up by GW and this type of weapon is ruled unusual, I reckon you'd be able to model it however you wanted to, so long as your opponent is informed it is AP3 with whatever special rules it has.

Kiredor wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Testify, no,

There is no longer an ap value for power weapons

only swords, axes, mauls, lances and unusual weapons.

You know what I mean.

Testify wrote:Does it really matter? Anything definted as a power weapon is now AP3, plus whatever else it was. So a power weapon that always wounded on 3+, now wounds on 3+ and is AP3. A Power Weapon that gives you +2 initiative now gives you +2 initiative and is AP3.

This ain't right. Power weapons can be AP2, AP3, or AP4 depending on what they are. Yes, unusual ones are all AP3, but what does that include? Everything that has a special rule (once we all agree on what that means)? Or only some? If it is only some, how do we classify non-unusual pw which have special rules?


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Kiredor wrote:Joe Mama, im leaning towards the opposite, but with the addendum that named weapons are all unusual unless specified otherwise.

Hmm, that way could work too. Whatever ruins less ICs would probably be my choice.

Joe Mama wrote:

Testify wrote:Does it really matter? Anything definted as a power weapon is now AP3, plus whatever else it was. So a power weapon that always wounded on 3+, now wounds on 3+ and is AP3. A Power Weapon that gives you +2 initiative now gives you +2 initiative and is AP3.

This ain't right. Power weapons can be AP2, AP3, or AP4 depending on what they are. Yes, unusual ones are all AP3, but what does that include? Everything that has a special rule (once we all agree on what that means)? Or only some? If it is only some, how do we classify non-unusual pw which have special rules?


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Kiredor wrote:Joe Mama, im leaning towards the opposite, but with the addendum that named weapons are all unusual unless specified otherwise.

Hmm, that way could work too. Whatever ruins less ICs would probably be my choice.

I would go with a Power Weapon that has a USR upgrade (like Master Crafted) can be a Master Crafted Power Axe, Maul, or Sword rather than being unusual.

Otherwise, we end up with the conundrum mentioned above and a headache for fluff players, i.e. there is no such thing as a master-crafted power axe or power maul in the entire galaxy.

Except Lemartes!

He has a master-crafted Power Maul!

Kiredor wrote:Except Lemartes!

He has a master-crafted Power Maul!

Well, that imploded the argument that master-crafting a weapon made it unusual...

...either that or GW ignored their own rules (which isn't out of the question).

It had to be FAQ'd specifically for him.

I believe that there is the intent in the game for USRs to be applicable to non-unusual power weapons.

I mean, technically both Power Mauls and Power Axes have USRs (concussive and unwieldy).

Happyjew wrote:And that is why I quoted special rules. To distinguish between special rules that are unique to a given weapon, and special rules that are universal.

Capitalizing in 40k is important. Special Rules refers to USR, special rules refers to codex specific or out of the ordinary rules.

Kiredor wrote:It had to be FAQ'd specifically for him.

I believe that there is the intent in the game for USRs to be applicable to non-unusual power weapons.

I mean, technically both Power Mauls and Power Axes have USRs (concussive and unwieldy).

This a million times over.

If they had meant USR's, the rule would have stated USR, not special.

Special by that definition is anything outside the bounds of power weapons, AKA Codex unique items...

Had they only said unique instead of special, this crap would have been much easier and fun.

DarknessEternal wrote:Any rules aside from those given by "power weapon".

All the rules debates are easily solved when you look at it in it's most simple form.

+1
"that was easy"

Camarodragon wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Any rules aside from those given by "power weapon".

All the rules debates are easily solved when you look at it in it's most simple form.

+1
"that was easy"

Ok, so a Master Crafted Power Weapon has no AP value? It would just be a regular CCW?

sfshilo wrote:

Kiredor wrote:It had to be FAQ'd specifically for him.

I believe that there is the intent in the game for USRs to be applicable to non-unusual power weapons.

I mean, technically both Power Mauls and Power Axes have USRs (concussive and unwieldy).

This a million times over.

If they had meant USR's, the rule would have stated USR, not special.

Special by that definition is anything outside the bounds of power weapons, AKA Codex unique items...

Had they only said unique instead of special, this crap would have been much easier and fun.

While this makes the most sense to me... you guys are also forgetting the lack of consistency among codex. In some codex, some weapons are "Special" simply because 'that one time' they chose not to just say it's that USR with the same rules etc... I truly believe this cannot be solved with the information we currently have... what makes sense to me is still a potential fight against your non-BA opponent elsewhere. GW has to address this period.

I am going to play this whole special and uniquw/unusual issue as anything beyond, "power weapon" makes it ap3, user str/initiative.

Every argument against that stance in the myriad of threads about it since 6th dropped has been based soley on opinion of what constitutes special/unique/unusual. As someone mentioned, the simplest interpretation, blah, blah.

So when I am facing the Axe of Mortalis, it will be ap3, user str/initiative. Same with sang guard glaive encarmines.

Brother Ramses wrote:I am going to play this whole special and uniquw/unusual issue as anything beyond, "power weapon" makes it ap3, user str/initiative.

Every argument against that stance in the myriad of threads about it since 6th dropped has been based soley on opinion of what constitutes special/unique/unusual. As someone mentioned, the simplest interpretation, blah, blah.

So when I am facing the Axe of Mortalis, it will be ap3, user str/initiative. Same with sang guard glaive encarmines.

You can't just ignore a rule because it is inconvenient to you or you don't like it and blame it on "someone else's opinion". There have been plenty of arguments that have been based on facts and definitions and you choose to ignore them for whatever reason.

The bottom line is this: basic rules are defined as applying to all models. Any model that has a MC weapon has the same rule, so MC is a basic rule that applies to Dante's Axe.

Ouch my brain hurts. As i see it the standard leader of a unit that upgrades to a power weapon will go off the represented weapon on the model, a master-crafted version should act the same, while codex specific (glave, relic, klaves, boneswords, blakc swords & warsyths) are unusual. Yes i am aware that GW have not changed the boneswords that will still ignore armour and warsyths are AP1, but they are codex specific so i used them in theory to try to explain my opinion.

Captain Antivas wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:I am going to play this whole special and uniquw/unusual issue as anything beyond, "power weapon" makes it ap3, user str/initiative.

Every argument against that stance in the myriad of threads about it since 6th dropped has been based soley on opinion of what constitutes special/unique/unusual. As someone mentioned, the simplest interpretation, blah, blah.

So when I am facing the Axe of Mortalis, it will be ap3, user str/initiative. Same with sang guard glaive encarmines.

You can't just ignore a rule because it is inconvenient to you or you don't like it and blame it on "someone else's opinion". My arguments have been based on facts and definitions and you choose to ignore them for whatever reason.

I am not ignoring a rule because I don't like it, I am ignoring people like you that are considering the Axe of Mortalis not special/unique/unusual enough because it is only mastercrafted. It isn't fact that you THINK the Axe of Mortalis is not special/unique/unusual enough because it is only mastercrafted, that is your opinion and only your opinion.

Now it is my opinion that mastercrafted is special/unique/unusual enough to be ap3, user str/initiative, but then I also point out that power weapons are by default not mastercrafted. That is something "extra" beyond a default power weapon, kinda like an extra chromosome makes you special. I point out that by default, power weapons do not reroll one missed hit in melee when used. That is something special that is not on a default power weapon.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Captain Antivas wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:I am going to play this whole special and uniquw/unusual issue as anything beyond, "power weapon" makes it ap3, user str/initiative.

Every argument against that stance in the myriad of threads about it since 6th dropped has been based soley on opinion of what constitutes special/unique/unusual. As someone mentioned, the simplest interpretation, blah, blah.

So when I am facing the Axe of Mortalis, it will be ap3, user str/initiative. Same with sang guard glaive encarmines.

You can't just ignore a rule because it is inconvenient to you or you don't like it and blame it on "someone else's opinion". My arguments have been based on facts and definitions and you choose to ignore them for whatever reason.

I am not ignoring a rule because I don't like it, I am ignoring people like you that are considering the Axe of Mortalis not special/unique/unusual enough because it is only mastercrafted. It isn't fact that you THINK the Axe of Mortalis is not special/unique/unusual enough because it is only mastercrafted, that is your opinion and only your opinion.

Now it is my opinion that mastercrafted is special/unique/unusual enough to be ap3, user str/initiative, but then I also point out that power weapons are by default not mastercrafted. That is something "extra" beyond a default power weapon, kinda like an extra chromosome makes you special. I point out that by default, power weapons do not reroll one missed hit in melee when used. That is something special that is not on a default power weapon.

All Master-crafted axes do the same thing. It is hardly unique.

Kiredor wrote:

Camarodragon wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Any rules aside from those given by "power weapon".

All the rules debates are easily solved when you look at it in it's most simple form.

+1
"that was easy"

Ok, so a Master Crafted Power Weapon has no AP value? It would just be a regular CCW?

No. Its AP3


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Brother Ramses wrote:

So when I am facing the Axe of Mortalis, it will be ap3, user str/initiative. Same with sang guard glaive encarmines.

What he said..

Camarodragon,

There are no rules for a 'Power Weapon' if it is not definable as one of the four types, or unusual.

By RAW, a Master Crafted Power Weapon does not fall into any of those categories, for reasons I have explained in this thread.

Just because it has a special rule, doesn't mean it is Unusual.


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Brother Rameses

I agree, a master crafted power weapon has a special rule.

It is not, however, unique.

Therefore it falls outside of the only categories for Power Weapons we have in the rules, and therein lies the problem

This is one of the rare occasions I agree with Brother Ramses.

If a weapon has an rule besides "this is a powerweapon", be it USR or any other rule, it is an AP3 weapon.

Obviously some of the universal special rules like Master-Crafted or Two-Handed were not intended to work this way, but that doesn't change the rules. There are worse rule hick-ups all over the edition.

Jidmah wrote:This is one of the rare occasions I agree with Brother Ramses.

If a weapon has an rule besides "this is a powerweapon", be it USR or any other rule, it is an AP3 weapon.

Obviously some of the universal special rules like Master-Crafted or Two-Handed were not intended to work this way, but that doesn't change the rules. There are worse rule hick-ups all over the edition.

No it doesn't change the rules. Please explain to me how a rule that acts the same across all codexes, a universal rule we will say, is unique. Every master crafted power axe has exactly the same rule and is treated exactly the same be it in the hands of an ork, an Imperial Guardsman, or a Space Marine Chapter Master, but that is a unique rule. You are really expecting me to accept that a universal rule is unique?

Also, Brother Rameses and Jidmah,

The Rules for Unusual Power Weapons do not EVER use the word Special. It does not occur ONCE in the entry for Unusual Power Weapons.

You are arguing that anything that has a special rule is an Unusual Power Weapon. The rules do not back this up, as they do not refer to special rules, only unique ones.

This does not mean that you may not have the intent of the rule correct. I wouldn't be surprised if it is FAQ'd that way, but the rules as they stand do not work the way you are saying.

Unusual Power Weapons are NOT just weapons with special rules, because that is not what defines a Unusual Weapon.

Captain Antivas wrote:

Jidmah wrote:This is one of the rare occasions I agree with Brother Ramses.

If a weapon has an rule besides "this is a powerweapon", be it USR or any other rule, it is an AP3 weapon.

Obviously some of the universal special rules like Master-Crafted or Two-Handed were not intended to work this way, but that doesn't change the rules. There are worse rule hick-ups all over the edition.

No it doesn't change the rules. Please explain to me how a rule that acts the same across all codexes, a universal rule we will say, is unique. Every master crafted power axe has exactly the same rule and is treated exactly the same be it in the hands of an ork, an Imperial Guardsman, or a Space Marine Chapter Master, but that is a unique rule. You are really expecting me to accept that a universal rule is unique?

So power weapons which confer +1 strength would not be unique, since power weapons conferring +1 strength would be the same in the hands of an ork, an Imperial Guardsman, or a Space Marine Chapter Master. Even a burna or a nemesis force halberd would work the same on an ork, an Imperial Guardsman, or a Space Marine Chapter Master. If you word it that way, no power weapon would ever be unique, except those which are found on unique models.

Is that your stance?

This rule is perfectly clear and unarguable if you read it in it's most simple form.

Does the weapon have additional rules besides being a power weapon? Yes, then it's AP 3 and doesn't matter what it looks like.

Stop making mountains out of molehills.

I prefer to make Monoliths out of molehills, but ymmv.

Jidmah wrote:So power weapons which confer +1 strength would not be unique, since power weapons conferring +1 strength would be the same in the hands of an ork, an Imperial Guardsman, or a Space Marine Chapter Master. Even a burna or a nemesis force halberd would work the same on an ork, an Imperial Guardsman, or a Space Marine Chapter Master. If you word it that way, no power weapon would ever be unique, except those which are found on unique models.

Is that your stance?

Careful with the strawman arguments there. The problem with your assertion in this post Jidmah, you're comparing apples to oranges. Your comparing rules that affect everything and everyone to weapons from individual codices.

DarknessEternal, the problem is you're over simplifying it. Assume we're all intelligent people and can handle a little difficulty in our rules, we're reading GWs rules after all. The problem with oversimplifying the problem, is that in the end we need to make things a bit more complex for some of the rules to even make sense. You're using a power axe that's master-crafted. Why would you strike at your initiative, AP3, and with no bonus to strength? You're still using a power axe, just one with a special rule. Master crafting does not make a weapon unique. It's said that every craftsman makes one masterpiece in his or her lifetime. So with all those untold billions in the future, master-crafted weapons aren't all that uncommon. The other problem with oversimplifying it, so power weapons that have no special rules use the models to see. Suddenly the weapon has a special rule and because it does so, it's an unusual power weapon because it's no longer "just a power weapon."

Sometimes we need to set aside the rules, and use common sense. Are we playing by the letter of the rules? Sure, it can be seen that way, but that's not always the right course of action. If I have fun being an ass to someone, and the rules tell me to have fun, then I should have fun being an ass to my opponent since the rules tell me I can be, right?

DarknessEternal wrote:This rule is perfectly clear and unarguable if you read it in it's most simple form.

Does the weapon have additional rules besides being a power weapon? Yes, then it's AP 3 and doesn't matter what it looks like.

Stop making mountains out of molehills.

Is that what it says in the rulebook or your interpretation? It's not the former.

No matter how strong each of you are in your convictions, it IS debatable, period. I agree with Bro Ramses' interpretation, but I don't believe his answer is indisputable, because its not.

Kiredor wrote:Also, Brother Rameses and Jidmah,

The Rules for Unusual Power Weapons do not EVER use the word Special. It does not occur ONCE in the entry for Unusual Power Weapons.

You are arguing that anything that has a special rule is an Unusual Power Weapon. The rules do not back this up, as they do not refer to special rules, only unique ones.

This does not mean that you may not have the intent of the rule correct. I wouldn't be surprised if it is FAQ'd that way, but the rules as they stand do not work the way you are saying.

This is literally correct. I have no idea what GW's intention is, my guess would be that anything with special rules is unusual and AP3, but the rules as written do not say that.


And I still see we have some disagreement over what is a further special rule. For simplicity's sake, I'd hope Universal Special Rules are considered Special Rules, along with other rules from codexes. We'll see whenever GW decides to put out a FAQ. Curious how tournies like NOVA are going to rule on this too....


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Lone Dragoon wrote:Suddenly the weapon has a special rule and because it does so, it's an unusual power weapon because it's no longer "just a power weapon."

If this is the way the rules go, I don't see this as a huge problem. Swords are AP3, unusual swords are AP3. Most fancy weapons are swords. How often is a unit going to have a confusing mix of usual and unusual weapons? Not often I imagine. If an IC has a power weapon, I am going to ask my opponent what the heck it does, because usually there are special abilities of some sort there.