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Tactica wrote:Dante = Unusual.

RAW.

Technically that would be RAI, until the 6th edition rulebook FAQ comes out.

Unit1126PLL wrote:Show your process, because that's not what the rulebook says.

Heh.

Step 1 - Look in codex. Oh look, Dante has a power weapon.
Step 2 - Does the weapon have any further special rules? Yes, it's MCed. That means we cannot look at the model to determine weapon type.
Step 3 - Uh... hmm. Only if "special" has an identical meaning to "unique" can we claim that Dante's weapon is an unusual power weapon.

Joe Mama wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Tactica wrote:Dante = Unusual.

RAW.

Show your process, because that's not what the rulebook says.

Heh.

Step 1 - Look in codex. Oh look, Dante has a power weapon.
Step 2 - Does the weapon have any further special rules? Yes, it's MCed. That means we cannot look at the model to determine weapon type.
Step 3 - Uh... hmm. Only if "special" has an identical meaning to "unique" can we claim that Dante's weapon is an unusual power weapon.

Yeah that's basically what I said. Unfortunately we cannot equate special with unique, because that way lies madness (not to mention some pretty major breaches of basic logic).

Dante,

Is it in BA FAQ = No

Is it a Power Weapon of any Type = Yes

How many "Power Weapon" types are there in BRB (pg 61) = 2, generic and unusual

Does it have any special rules (pg 32-43) as defined in BRB = Yes, then not generic

BRB: Unusual Power weapons = anything in codex with its own unique rules beyond basic "power weapon"

+ + +

Thus, it's an unusal Axe... it doesn't strike last, it is AP 3, and it's Master Crafted... i.e. Unusual Power Weapon.

Cheers,

Tactica wrote:Dante,

Is it in BA FAQ = No

Is it a Power Weapon of any Type = Yes

How many "Power Weapon" types are there in BRB (pg 61) = 2, generic and unusual

Does it have any special rules (pg 32-43) as defined in BRB = Yes, then not generic

BRB: Unusual Power weapons = anything in codex with its own unique rules beyond basic "power weapon"

Cheers,

You skipped part of RAW when you assumed that MASTER CRAFTED is a "unique" rule and therefore would fit under an unusual power weapon. Show me that Master Crafted is Unique and I will believe you.

Tactica wrote:Dante,

Is it in BA FAQ = No

Is it a Power Weapon of any Type = Yes

How many "Power Weapon" types are there in BRB (pg 61) = 2, generic and unusual

Does it have any special rules (pg 32-43) as defined in BRB = Yes, then not generic

BRB: Unusual Power weapons = anything in codex with its own unique rules beyond basic "power weapon"

Cheers,

That's what the RAW should be, where it probably will be eventually, but right now there's a rather large hole that weapons can fall into where they aren't classified (those which have special rules but aren't "unique"). I would hope this would be discussed before a game and these doughnut hole rules won't be used.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Tactica wrote:Dante = Unusual.

RAW.

Show your process, because that's not what the rulebook says.

EDIT: Here's the RAW process for Dante:

"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon with no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it is." BRB 61

Dante's power axe has further special rules, I.E. Master Crafted, so we read on:

"Many models have unusual power weapons that have one or more unique rules. If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry." BRB 61

Dante's power axe has no unique rules at all (Master-Crafted is not unique). So it doesn't use this either.

The BRB does not discuss this further.

So what is it?

This is YOUR opinion and your opinion ONLY! Your way breaks the game because you create a gap based on your opinion on mastercrafting. However if you accept that a mastercrafted power weapon is unique/special/whatever, then you have the Axe of Mortalis being a unique power weapon, thus ap3, user str/initiative.

I am not getting hung up on the word 'unique' in the Unusual Power Weapon description... my read is, a power weapon is either generic, or it is Unusual.

Unusual is anything that has its own unique set of rules as compared to the generic rules from the BRB...

The word unique as it relates to weapons is a generic term, it is not a defined term (unless you are talking about special characters, as those really are one of a kind and are defined and Unique in that regard is listed in the index, but I digress)

I'm not reading anything more into it than that.

Cheers,

Brother Ramses wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Tactica wrote:Dante = Unusual.

RAW.

Show your process, because that's not what the rulebook says.

EDIT: Here's the RAW process for Dante:

"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon with no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it is." BRB 61

Dante's power axe has further special rules, I.E. Master Crafted, so we read on:

"Many models have unusual power weapons that have one or more unique rules. If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry." BRB 61

Dante's power axe has no unique rules at all (Master-Crafted is not unique). So it doesn't use this either.

The BRB does not discuss this further.

So what is it?

This is YOUR opinion and your opinion ONLY! Your way breaks the game because you create a gap based on your opinion on mastercrafting. However if you accept that a mastercrafted power weapon is unique/special/whatever, then you have the Axe of Mortalis being a unique power weapon, thus ap3, user str/initiative.

That isn't an opinion - the English definition of unique is out there for all to see.
So I will ask you, then, to prove that Master-Crafted is a "unique" rule.

EDIT:
Tactica, Unique is a "defined" term because there is an english-language definition of it. Saying that merely having a special rule makes a power weapon "unique" is a major equivocation fallacy, as well as "changing the parameters of the argument to fit your conclusion" which is a HUGE breach of logic.

Unit1126PLL wrote:EDIT:
Tactica, Unique is a "defined" term because there is an english-language definition of it. Saying that merely having a special rule makes a power weapon "unique" is a major equivocation fallacy, as well as "changing the parameters of the argument to fit your conclusion" which is a HUGE breach of logic.

@ Unit1126PLL

The english language is a complicated beast. I negotiate and assist litigation in contracts for a living.

"unique", does not only mean one, it also means "unusual" (see definition three from www.webster.com)

3: unusual <we were fairly unique, the sixty of us, in that there wasn't one good mixer in the bunch — J. D. Salinger>

Thus my point of my read of the Power Weapon rules, they are generic or Unusual. If they are Unusual, it just means they have a unique or unusual that is to say, a non-generic set of rules as is detailed in their codex.

RAW.

Cheers,

Tactica wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:EDIT:
Tactica, Unique is a "defined" term because there is an english-language definition of it. Saying that merely having a special rule makes a power weapon "unique" is a major equivocation fallacy, as well as "changing the parameters of the argument to fit your conclusion" which is a HUGE breach of logic.

@ Unit1126PLL

The english language is a complicated beast. I negotiate and assist litigation in contracts for a living.

"unique", does not only mean one, it also means "unusual" (see definition three from www.webster.com)

3: unusual <we were fairly unique, the sixty of us, in that there wasn't one good mixer in the bunch — J. D. Salinger>

Cheers,

Is Master-Crafted unusual, then?

The BRB does make a mention of "unique" in the "Special Rules" section. Pg. 32, second-to-last paragraph:
"Most of the commonly used special rules in Warhammer 40,000 are listed here, but this is by no means an exhaustive list. Many troops have their own unique abilities, which are laid out in their codex."
This suggests that "unique" rules are rules found in the codex of the army, and not in the special rules section. Meaning a Master-crafted Power weapon does not have a unique rule, while, a Daemon weapon (+D6 attacks) has a unique rule.

However, there is a rule gap. Pg. 61 talks about what to do with a power weapon that has no "further special rules". It does not say anything about what to do with power weapons that have further special rules, unless those special rules are "unique". Pg. 32 refers to the rules in the "Special Rules" repeatedly as "special rules". There is no distinction between a "special rule" in the BRB, and those in codices, except that codex based rules are "unique". So, a Master-crafted power weapon does have a "further special rule" and falls into the gap, as it's special rule is not "unique".

There are two ways to proceed now. Neither are based on RAW. You can assume that GW meant for any weapon that had "further special rules" to be considered "unusual", and thus any master-crafted PW is AP3 S(U). Or, you can assume that GW intended for them to be the Look-At-The-Model (LATM) type, and you then have, say, a master-crafted Power Maul. However, none of this is RAW. It's all RAI or HYWPI. By RAW, there is a gap. What will be interesting is to see how GW FAQs it, as they could go either way (or, most likely, a completely different way).

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Is Master-Crafted unusual, then?

If your codex says you have a Master Crafted Power Weapon, then yes, that would not be a generic Power Weapon which must have "no other special rules."

Therefore, your example equates to Unusual by my read.

Cheers,

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Tactica wrote:Dante = Unusual.

RAW.

Show your process, because that's not what the rulebook says.

EDIT: Here's the RAW process for Dante:

"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon with no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it is." BRB 61

Dante's power axe has further special rules, I.E. Master Crafted, so we read on:

"Many models have unusual power weapons that have one or more unique rules. If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry." BRB 61

Dante's power axe has no unique rules at all (Master-Crafted is not unique). So it doesn't use this either.

The BRB does not discuss this further.

So what is it?

This is YOUR opinion and your opinion ONLY! Your way breaks the game because you create a gap based on your opinion on mastercrafting. However if you accept that a mastercrafted power weapon is unique/special/whatever, then you have the Axe of Mortalis being a unique power weapon, thus ap3, user str/initiative.

That isn't an opinion - the English definition of unique is out there for all to see.
).
So I will ask you, then, to prove that Master-Crafted is a "unique" rule.

So "unique master-crafted power weapon" is defined in Webster's or Oxford? Oh yea, we are dealing within a vacuum known as the World of Warhammer 40k where we have to fall back on the set parameters of what can or cannot be unique. Here is a kicker for you,

Is a frost blade unique?

If you answer yes, then how can I have 4 Wolf Lords all equipped with one with all the exact same rules? Doesn't really make them a unique weapon now does it? At 2000pts, I can take another 4 wolf lords with another 4 frost blades. So eight weapons with all the same rule is unique? That is your basis of argument for a master-crafted weapon, that master-crafted weapons are prevalent in the World of Warhammer 40k so they must not be unique. However, if you look at frost blades among close combat weapons, +1 str and ap3 is unique among weapons just as re-rolling a missed hit in melee when used is unique among close combat weapons.

This whole argument that the universe is filled with master-crafted weapons and thus not unique is a crap argument when you then apply that same standard to other weapons with unique/special rules and how many can or can not be placed in an army.

kaisshau wrote:The BRB does make a mention of "unique" in the "Special Rules" section. Pg. 32, second-to-last paragraph:
"Most of the commonly used special rules in Warhammer 40,000 are listed here, but this is by no means an exhaustive list. Many troops have their own unique abilities, which are laid out in their codex."

God dammit, I really should have done more than skim page 32. Unique and special are the same thing in the GW world. I don't see how else to read that statement.


PS - Thank you for pointing that out to us slow folks.

kaisshau wrote:The BRB does make a mention of "unique" in the "Special Rules" section. Pg. 32, second-to-last paragraph:
"Most of the commonly used special rules in Warhammer 40,000 are listed here, but this is by no means an exhaustive list. Many troops have their own unique abilities, which are laid out in their codex."

A) the book lists most
B) it says its not exhaustive
C) there are many troops that have their own unique abilities

This mention of "unique abilites" is a generic term.

My read of this section is there are more special rules in codexes that may not all be listed here in the "Special Rules" section.

Cheers,

Lone Dragoon wrote:

Jidmah wrote:So power weapons which confer +1 strength would not be unique, since power weapons conferring +1 strength would be the same in the hands of an ork, an Imperial Guardsman, or a Space Marine Chapter Master. Even a burna or a nemesis force halberd would work the same on an ork, an Imperial Guardsman, or a Space Marine Chapter Master. If you word it that way, no power weapon would ever be unique, except those which are found on unique models.

Is that your stance?

Careful with the strawman arguments there. The problem with your assertion in this post Jidmah, you're comparing apples to oranges. Your comparing rules that affect everything and everyone to weapons from individual codices.

First of all, "Master Crafted" is pretty much limited to space marines of varying flavors, despite being in the main rulebook. I'm not aware of any master-crafted xenos weapons.
Second, +1 Strength is something that is defined in the main rulebook and works exactly the same for every codex. So any weapons applying flat stat bonuses would not be "unique" either.
Third, you may only ever count a power weapon as axe, sword, lance or maul if "has no further special rules" (exact quote). Master-crafted calls itself a special rule for weapons in its own definition ("Weapons with the Master-crafted special rule allow...").
So either a master-crafted weapon is unique, and has AP3, or it has no rules at all, and can not be used at all, since it's missing the "melee" special type. Anything else is a house rule or interpretation.

DarknessEternal, the problem is you're over simplifying it. Assume we're all intelligent people and can handle a little difficulty in our rules, we're reading GWs rules after all. The problem with oversimplifying the problem, is that in the end we need to make things a bit more complex for some of the rules to even make sense. You're using a power axe that's master-crafted. Why would you strike at your initiative, AP3, and with no bonus to strength? You're still using a power axe, just one with a special rule. Master crafting does not make a weapon unique. It's said that every craftsman makes one masterpiece in his or her lifetime. So with all those untold billions in the future, master-crafted weapons aren't all that uncommon. The other problem with oversimplifying it, so power weapons that have no special rules use the models to see. Suddenly the weapon has a special rule and because it does so, it's an unusual power weapon because it's no longer "just a power weapon."

Interpretation is just that, interpretation. You interpretation is not what the rules say. Common sense is not as common as you might think, and heavily biased by personal perception. Thus the only common ground is following the rules exactly as written. If all participants agree, you are free to change the rules for that game. But as the rules are written now, there is no way to make a master-crafted weapon count as axe, lance or maul without breaking a rule.

Sometimes we need to set aside the rules, and use common sense. Are we playing by the letter of the rules? Sure, it can be seen that way, but that's not always the right course of action. If I have fun being an ass to someone, and the rules tell me to have fun, then I should have fun being an ass to my opponent since the rules tell me I can be, right?

You might want to have a look at the tenets of you make da call, especially at the part about RAW vs "How I would play it".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kaisshau wrote:The BRB does make a mention of "unique" in the "Special Rules" section. Pg. 32, second-to-last paragraph:
"Most of the commonly used special rules in Warhammer 40,000 are listed here, but this is by no means an exhaustive list. Many troops have their own unique abilities, which are laid out in their codex."
This suggests that "unique" rules are rules found in the codex of the army, and not in the special rules section. Meaning a Master-crafted Power weapon does not have a unique rule, while, a Daemon weapon (+D6 attacks) has a unique rule.

However, there is a rule gap. Pg. 61 talks about what to do with a power weapon that has no "further special rules". It does not say anything about what to do with power weapons that have further special rules, unless those special rules are "unique". Pg. 32 refers to the rules in the "Special Rules" repeatedly as "special rules". There is no distinction between a "special rule" in the BRB, and those in codices, except that codex based rules are "unique". So, a Master-crafted power weapon does have a "further special rule" and falls into the gap, as it's special rule is not "unique".

There are two ways to proceed now. Neither are based on RAW. You can assume that GW meant for any weapon that had "further special rules" to be considered "unusual", and thus any master-crafted PW is AP3 S(U). Or, you can assume that GW intended for them to be the Look-At-The-Model (LATM) type, and you then have, say, a master-crafted Power Maul. However, none of this is RAW. It's all RAI or HYWPI. By RAW, there is a gap. What will be interesting is to see how GW FAQs it, as they could go either way (or, most likely, a completely different way).

I disagree. First of all just because other codices have their own unique abilities does not mean that the abilities in the BRB are not unique. In fact, all it means is that some special rules are unique to their codex. it does not define "unique" at all.

So, as master-crafted weapons do have special rules, they are in turn unique - just like a burna is still a unique weapon, even though you can field 47 of them in a single FOC.

Just something more to add to the discussion. At the top of the Wargear section in all the newer Codex we have the explanation of regular Wargear vs. unique Wargear like for example the top of page 56 in the Blood Angels Codex says "Weapons and equipment that can be used by more than one type of model or unit are detailed here, while equipment that is unique to a single model or unit (including wargear carried by named special characters) is often detailed in the appropriate entry in The Angelic Host section." Nothing decisive but more to chew on I suppose.

I just want to know what my Glaive Encarmines are now...

BladeWalker wrote:Just something more to add to the discussion. At the top of the Wargear section in all the newer Codex we have the explanation of regular Wargear vs. unique Wargear like for example the top of page 56 in the Blood Angels Codex says "Weapons and equipment that can be used by more than one type of model or unit are detailed here, while equipment that is unique to a single model or unit (including wargear carried by named special characters) is often detailed in the appropriate entry in The Angelic Host section." Nothing decisive but more to chew on I suppose.

I just want to know what my Glaive Encarmines are now...

Per the RAW, GE are ap3, user str/initiative.

Brother Ramses wrote:

BladeWalker wrote:Just something more to add to the discussion. At the top of the Wargear section in all the newer Codex we have the explanation of regular Wargear vs. unique Wargear like for example the top of page 56 in the Blood Angels Codex says "Weapons and equipment that can be used by more than one type of model or unit are detailed here, while equipment that is unique to a single model or unit (including wargear carried by named special characters) is often detailed in the appropriate entry in The Angelic Host section." Nothing decisive but more to chew on I suppose.

I just want to know what my Glaive Encarmines are now...

Per the RAW, GE are ap3, user str/initiative.

Because they are not in the Wargear section of their Codex, they are in the Angelic Host section and specific to a certain unit. That makes them Unique, that makes them Unusual and AP3... right?

BladeWalker wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

BladeWalker wrote:Just something more to add to the discussion. At the top of the Wargear section in all the newer Codex we have the explanation of regular Wargear vs. unique Wargear like for example the top of page 56 in the Blood Angels Codex says "Weapons and equipment that can be used by more than one type of model or unit are detailed here, while equipment that is unique to a single model or unit (including wargear carried by named special characters) is often detailed in the appropriate entry in The Angelic Host section." Nothing decisive but more to chew on I suppose.

I just want to know what my Glaive Encarmines are now...

Per the RAW, GE are ap3, user str/initiative.

Because they are not in the Wargear section of their Codex, they are in the Angelic Host section and specific to a certain unit. That makes them Unique, that makes them Unusual and AP3... right?

I come to that conclusion not by your means, but the fact that they are listed as being a two-handed master-crafted power weapon. Master-crafting being a special/unique rule and thus they are ap3, user str/initiative.

Don't have my codex with me, so *trying to remember* their codex rules... but those are Master-crafted, 2-handed Power Weapons in the BA codex right?

If so, then in 6th edition, the BRB says those are Power Weapons with special rules, and thus, would be Unusual Power Weapons by my read, and would be used as follows:

2-handed, Master-crafted, AP3, user Strength, user Initiative.

Cheers,

I think we can agree, it's not so much as what counts as a special rule; it is what is a unique rule as required for unusual power weapons.
I am still firmly in the camp that if the rule does not fall under the list of special rules in the BRB, then it is a Unique rule, even if 5 different armies can take a power weapon that adds +1 Strength.

Brother Ramses wrote:

BladeWalker wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

BladeWalker wrote:Just something more to add to the discussion. At the top of the Wargear section in all the newer Codex we have the explanation of regular Wargear vs. unique Wargear like for example the top of page 56 in the Blood Angels Codex says "Weapons and equipment that can be used by more than one type of model or unit are detailed here, while equipment that is unique to a single model or unit (including wargear carried by named special characters) is often detailed in the appropriate entry in The Angelic Host section." Nothing decisive but more to chew on I suppose.

I just want to know what my Glaive Encarmines are now...

Per the RAW, GE are ap3, user str/initiative.

Because they are not in the Wargear section of their Codex, they are in the Angelic Host section and specific to a certain unit. That makes them Unique, that makes them Unusual and AP3... right?

I come to that conclusion not by your means, but the fact that they are listed as being a two-handed master-crafted power weapon. Master-crafting being a special/unique rule and thus they are ap3, user str/initiative.

Thank you for your process on that. I modeled my Sanguinary Guard with Halberds 6 months ago and I think I'm going to have an aneurysm before I know their stat line for sure now...

Happyjew wrote:I think we can agree, it's not so much as what counts as a special rule; it is what is a unique rule as required for unusual power weapons.
I am still firmly in the camp that if the rule does not fall under the list of special rules in the BRB, then it is a Unique rule, even if 5 different armies can take a power weapon that adds +1 Strength.

To be fair Powerklaws and ATSKNF are in the BRB, as well as dozens of other faction- or, in rare cases, model-specific rules. I wouldn't exactly use codices as an indicator of what "Unique" is.

I blame Matt Ward (possibly Phil Kelly as well. I WANT MY NEW ELDAR DEX!!). Sorry.

Happyjew wrote:I blame Matt Ward (possibly Phil Kelly as well. I WANT MY NEW ELDAR DEX!!). Sorry.

I can't wait to see a new Eldar dex just so I can start to play against more Eldar players that have shelved their armies. I feel the same way about all the new army codexes such as DE, GK, and Necrons. They all bring players back or new players into the game and make it fun to game again.

Happyjew wrote:I think we can agree, it's not so much as what counts as a special rule; it is what is a unique rule as required for unusual power weapons.
I am still firmly in the camp that if the rule does not fall under the list of special rules in the BRB, then it is a Unique rule, even if 5 different armies can take a power weapon that adds +1 Strength.

Reconcile your firm belief with this please, which almost certainly means special and unique mean the same thing in the rulebook:

kaisshau wrote:
The BRB does make a mention of "unique" in the "Special Rules" section. Pg. 32, second-to-last paragraph:
"Most of the commonly used special rules in Warhammer 40,000 are listed here, but this is by no means an exhaustive list. Many troops have their own unique abilities, which are laid out in their codex."

If the "special rules" are in that chapter, but it is not a complete, exhaustive list of them, the only interpretation is that other special rules are in the codexes....

Joe Mama wrote:

kaisshau wrote:
The BRB does make a mention of "unique" in the "Special Rules" section. Pg. 32, second-to-last paragraph:
"Most of the commonly used special rules in Warhammer 40,000 are listed here, but this is by no means an exhaustive list. Many troops have their own unique abilities, which are laid out in their codex."

If the "special rules" are in that chapter, but it is not a complete, exhaustive list of them, the only interpretation is that other special rules are in the codexes....

That means that unique rules are special. But it doesn't mean that all special rules are unique, unfortunately, so that doesn't close the hole.

Four Simple Catagories of power weapons: power axes, power mauls, power swords , power lances and no further special rules = use the chart.

Anything..... unusual, unique, special = AP3 + models stats and weapons abilities...



Thats the way I"m plaing it.

There is one reading of the rules that makes impossible for the master-crafted power axes to exist, and then there is a reading that doesn't do that. I know which one I'm going to use.