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With regards to power weapons, rulebook says, if the weapon has no further special rules, look at the model to see which type of power weapon it is, and use the weapon stats for that type. Therefore, if the weapon has other special rules, we are not directed to look at the model to see which type of power weapon.

Question is what does GW mean by special rules? I would hope something obvious like the 'Universal Special Rules' plus codex specific rules. Ignoring the whole bit about "unique" weapons that comes later, can we nail down at least what a special rule for a weapon is?

Any rules aside from those given by "power weapon".

All the rules debates are easily solved when you look at it in it's most simple form.

I would say that "special rules" in this case are any additional rules not covered by USRs.

So a two-handed power weapon is not special. A mastercrafted power sword - again not special. A two-handed power weapon that adds +2 Str: Special.

At least, that is how i see it.

Uh oh, two replies, two opposing views alread.

Happyjew wrote:I would say that "special rules" in this case are any additional rules not covered by USRs.

To me that would be odd since the 'S' and the 'R' in USR stands for Special Rules. But GW does odd stuff sometimes.

And that is why I quoted special rules. To distinguish between special rules that are unique to a given weapon, and special rules that are universal.

Joe Mama wrote:Uh oh, two replies, two opposing views alread.

And in my view, there's utterly no room for quibbling about what power weapons are special power weapons, which makes it the more elegant rule.

I have to agree with Happyjew on this one. If the weapon has a special rule that is identical to what is in the BBB, then it is not a special weapon. Master crafted, Two handed, Specialist Weapon, Unwieldy, etc are all rules that have a BBB equivalent, and thus do not fall under the Unusual power weapon rule. However something like Logan's Axe Morkai, Astorath's Executioner's Axe, Burnas, or even a Relic blade have rules that exceed those given in the BBB. For example, the ability to strike as a power fist and/or as a frost blade cannot be duplicated, nor is the +2 strength bonus, or being able to use it as a flamer or power weapon. When the rule cannot be duplicated, then it falls under the Unusual Power weapon rule.

Happyjew wrote:And that is why I quoted special rules. To distinguish between special rules that are unique to a given weapon, and special rules that are universal.

Wait, what? Doesn't the language say something like 'no further special rules'? Which would imply that something like 'power weapon' is a special rule, as special rule is defined in that sentence. Which means your USR distinction doesn't make much sense.


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Lone Dragoon wrote:I have to agree with Happyjew on this one. If the weapon has a special rule that is identical to what is in the BBB, then it is not a special weapon.

The text discusses further special rules, we don't know what they mean by special rules. You're saying the rulebook's chapter on special rules are not considered special rules, as far as power weapons are concerned?

Master crafted, Two handed, Specialist Weapon, Unwieldy, etc are all rules that have a BBB equivalent, and thus do not fall under the Unusual power weapon rule.

ATTENTION EVERYONE. This thread isn't about the Unusual power weapon rule. This thread is about what the codex means by 'special rules' when discussing regular power weapons. If it has no further special rules, we look to the model to see the type of weapon. When does a model not have further special rules?

The problem Joe Mama is pointing out is that the only time we have permission to decide what type of weapon it is, (Sword, Axe, Maul, Lance) is when it has no special rules.

However to be Unusual, it requires Unique rules.

Do we ignore the line about special rules for things like Glaive Encarmine and the Axe Mortalis and other weapons with universal special rules, or do we consider USRs unique and then make them all unusual?

There is a gap here.

Kiredor wrote:There is a gap here.

Indeed. But I'd even get more basic than that. Some people think "mastecrafted" or other Universal Special Rules, don't count as a Special Rule in the context of power weapons. It's going to be very hard to even get to unusual weapons if we first can't figure out what they (GW) mean by 'special rules'

Joe Mama wrote:ATTENTION EVERYONE. This thread isn't about the Unusual power weapon rule. This thread is about what the codex means by 'special rules' when discussing regular power weapons. If it has no further special rules, we look to the model to see the type of weapon. When does a model not have further special rules?

The problem with saying that is that rule is the determining factor whether or not we figure out a power weapon's properties under the power weapons rules, or if we use a different set of rules for them. By taking the unusual power weapons rule out of the equation by elimination due to the rules of the weapon currently up for discussion (I'm just using the currently up for discussion phrase to mean when playing the game), we are then free to determine the actual rules we use for the weapons.

We essentially have to determine, is the rule of the weapon able to be duplicated by rules from the rule book? If the answer is yes, then it is a power weapon with special rules. If the answer is no, then it is an unusual power weapon and follows its own rules.

Lone Dragoon wrote:We essentially have to determine, is the rule of the weapon able to be duplicated by rules from the rule book? If the answer is yes, then it is a power weapon with special rules. If the answer is no, then it is an unusual power weapon and follows its own rules.

Question begging. The rulebook doesn't say anything about duplication of rules, it says does it have further special rules. If not, look at the model.

Joe Mama wrote:

Lone Dragoon wrote:We essentially have to determine, is the rule of the weapon able to be duplicated by rules from the rule book? If the answer is yes, then it is a power weapon with special rules. If the answer is no, then it is an unusual power weapon and follows its own rules.

Question begging.

Holy crap, an accurate usage of Begging the Question.

Lone Dragon states "is the rule of the weapon able to be duplicated by rules from the rule book? If the answer is yes, then it is a power weapon with special rules. If the answer is no, then it is an unusual power weapon and follows its own rules." which assumes the answer to "what is a special rule?" is already defined by his definition. His definition is the premise of his argument, not the result. It can't be used as proof.

Yes, it says look at the model if it's a basic power weapon upgrade. What you're missing though, power weapons can be given additional special rules. There is nothing preventing the addition of special rules. As an example, a weapon may receive the master-crafted upgrade should the points be paid for it, if it is a possible upgrade. Say a codex allows a weapon to be master crafted. We look at the weapon it is a sword, now we apply the additional special rule. It now has the following statline;
Str AP Special Rules
Power Sword User 3 Melee, Master-crafted

We have a special rule that is added to the statline. If said weapon was an axe it would look like this;

Str AP Special Rules
Power Axe +1 2 Melee, Master-crafted, Unwieldy

I take it to mean by "no further special rules" to mean whether or not the weapon falls under the unusual power weapon heading. It's the least amount of headache, and the easiest way to figure it out. We can debate endlessly about whether a master-crafted power weapon should look at the model to determine type, but which is going to be an easier route for everyone and still make a modicum of sense out of the badly worded rules?

The problem is that the only time we get to decide the weapon is if it has no special rules.

There is no player choice in what kind of power weapon it is, except in modelling it.

If you buy a power weapon, you don't pick one when you pay the points, you look at the model when you go to find the rules.

But you only do that if there are no special rules.

Personally, I would agree with RAI as being how Lone Dragoon looks at it, but RAW, if you have a special rule, but not a unique rule, you cannot determine the type of weapon it is.

Which is an issue, really.

Master Crafted is a Special Rule. It's defined as specifically as a Special Rule. Once you Master Craft a power weapon, it becomes a power weapon with a Special Rule.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Joe Mama wrote:

Lone Dragoon wrote:We essentially have to determine, is the rule of the weapon able to be duplicated by rules from the rule book? If the answer is yes, then it is a power weapon with special rules. If the answer is no, then it is an unusual power weapon and follows its own rules.

Question begging.

Holy crap, an accurate usage of Begging the Question.

Lone Dragon states "is the rule of the weapon able to be duplicated by rules from the rule book? If the answer is yes, then it is a power weapon with special rules. If the answer is no, then it is an unusual power weapon and follows its own rules." which assumes the answer to "what is a special rule?" is already defined by his definition. His definition is the premise of his argument, not the result. It can't be used as proof.

LOL. Thanks? No really, thank you for spelling out what I meant, because I went the lazy way with just naming the catch phrase / logical fallacy.

DarknessEternal wrote:Master Crafted is a Special Rule. It's defined as specifically as a Special Rule. Once you Master Craft a power weapon, it becomes a power weapon with a Special Rule.

However my question though, if it's a power weapon with a special rule, what stats line are you going to give it? If you can't look at the weapon to determine it, and it doesn't fall under the "unique" rule of the unusual power weapon, we end up with a headache.

DarknessEternal wrote:Master Crafted is a Special Rule. It's defined as specifically as a Special Rule. Once you Master Craft a power weapon, it becomes a power weapon with a Special Rule.

Marneus Calgar has a pair of Master Crafted Power Fists.

Would you argue that they are unusual power weapons instead? And that they don't give an extra attack? lawl.

That's basically the problem, there is no rule for it.

If they FAQ'd the codex to replace any instance of Power Weapon with Power Axe, Lance, Maul or Sword, then we wouldn't have a problem.

But you don't have the ability to purchase a specific type of weapon, so your model never has a Master Crafted Power Axe, unless specifically stated in the Codex, because we don't determine that till we have a model, and at that point, due to it having a special rule, we don't use the model to determine it.


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Also Crazy Terran, powerfists are not power weapons.

Lone Dragoon wrote:However my question though, if it's a power weapon with a special rule, what stats line are you going to give it? If you can't look at the weapon to determine it, and it doesn't fall under the "unique" rule of the unusual power weapon, we end up with a headache.

Yes, that's the next question in the analysis. But since there seems to be massive disagreement about the first question, how can we even deal with this second one?

Joe Mama wrote:

Lone Dragoon wrote:However my question though, if it's a power weapon with a special rule, what stats line are you going to give it? If you can't look at the weapon to determine it, and it doesn't fall under the "unique" rule of the unusual power weapon, we end up with a headache.

Yes, that's the next question in the analysis. But since there seems to be massive disagreement about the first question, how can we even deal with this second one?

The easy way, we know that special rules can be given to weapons. If it's a power weapon, it's either an unusual pw, a regular pw, or a pw with rules added to it. We are told on page 32 that the effects of multiple different special rules are cumulative, which means that we can add special rules found on pages 32-43, if we are given permission to. What this means is that the special rules found on page 32-43 do not restrict the power weapons working as intended. If we agree that the addition (with permission) of special rules from those pages may be added (again, we can have extra special rules that are cumulative), then the only other definition that makes sense is if the weapon has a rule the only way that it would count as ineligible to determine the type of weapon, would be a unique rule that qualifies it for the unusual power weapons rule.

The sentence in full is

'If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules'

Does this mean that if it has no rules further than those listed in the entry? or no rules other than 'power weapon'?

Does a power weapon allow a single reroll to hit when used in melee?

No.

Guess one that does must be special among power weapons.

So how do we determine its abilities?

So a Master-crafted power weapon would not be based on what it looks like but instead always Strength, (User) AP (3?

Kiredor wrote:So how do we determine its abilities?

Yes, if we agree on the first question, how indeed.


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Happyjew wrote:So a Master-crafted power weapon would not be based on what it looks like but instead always Strength, (User) AP (3?

Unclear.

1) Does the power weapon have other "special rules" whatever that means? If No, look at model, figure out weapon type, use the chart. If Yes, if it has special rules, go to next step.


2) Is the weapon "unique" whatever that means? If yes, it is AP3 with those extra rules, if no.... uh..... umm..... er....

Happyjew,

The problem is that to be Unusual it requires Unique rules.

So the master crafted power weapon, has special rules, meaning we cant look at the model to figure out what it is.

But as it doesnt have unique rules, its not unusual.

Therefore what is it? From RAW, its S(U) AP -,

What I would like to know is which makes more sense to other people, changing special to unique in the first section of the rules, or changing unique to special in the unusual rules, just to clear up the issue?

Kiredor wrote:What I would like to know is which makes more sense to other people, changing special to unique in the first section of the rules, or changing unique to special in the unusual rules, just to clear up the issue?

If we are just talking about preferences and not what the rules say now, I would change unique to special, with a broad definition of what special is (a broad, but well defined definition listed in the codex). That way there is no gap for weapons to fall between. Otherwise if we went the other way (only unique rules make a weapon unusual), I am sure there would be some poor ICs who have axes with USRs added, who would have to strike at Iniative 1 instead of their normal quick speed....

so from the locked thread..

my master of the ravenwing has a MC power weapon, its described in the fluff as the Raven SWORD, now can i change it to a Lance (mainly due to rule of cool) or would i have to stick to use it as an "unsual" power weapon (due to being MC) ?