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Purifier wrote:

DarthSpader wrote:if im spending 90$ on a book it better have alot in it.

I agree

I don't know if an alot would fit.
On a more serious note, it does have a lot inside. 432 pages of smallish print, to be precise.

DarthSpader wrote:and, just a point: if the rulebook had been a 80 page job, with no fluff, no pics, no armie backgrounds, nothing else, aside from an intro and explanation of play and the rules.... people would STILL be up in arms, complaining that the book is too small, and its not worth it. heck, if gw even lowered the price to 40-50$ and didnt even bother with the cheapo version in the starter box (maybe you just get 50% off brb with starter set purchase) there would be a massive uproar. i agree with sgtsix here...

latley people on dakka have just.....got WHINEY. everything is bad. omg my army nerfed, the rules suck, the book is too big, fliers are broke, overwatch is broke, CC got nerfed, shooting didnt get nerfed enough, transports and vehicles got nerfed, mat ward... and so on and so on.... like really... if GW wasent a CORPORATION and instead an individual, he wouldnt be able to please anyone, because so far everything GW has done in the last year or more has been wrong. FFS...please...stop...the ...whining!

the rulebook is awsome. its not bigger then 5th, its a respectable size, has alot of great reading, and makes alot of stuff that was vague in 5th clearer. and as with any massive game there will be "grey areas" - to be addressed via FAQ... but im betting even that wont be really good enough for anyone here.

Have an upvote man. Well said.

I don't see the problem with the artwork of minis in the rulebook because I know some people who like to look at them. Heck, even I'll look at them on occasions out of admiration. I'm not sure why it would be classed as advertising at all. There are no prices, and it's not like they say in each pic "Pick up your (enter model name) today!!!!!!".

Noir wrote:Umm... it is advertising, they have doing from the start with there games. It is one of the ways they sell models. It has always been the point of the eavy metal parts of all there books. You can think what you want, dose change the fact, that is what the pics are for.

It's actually one in the same thing with selling miniatures. When I worked for GW we put our main emphasis on inspiring people, making them excited about the army or the models so that they went and brought some*. Was the same when I worked in a FLGS - I once sold a Flames of War starter box set because the chap was so inspired by my own personal enthusiasm about Flames of War (and I did love it at the time). He was inspired to buy it. Showing the models & paintjobs & custom-stuff in the rulebook inspires people to get such-and-such army or model - in the past the rulebooks & codices have inspired me to go out and buy certain models for my armies.

*There was a sort of GW 'Customer Service Charter' type thing with about 12 or so lines on how we should handle customers, the usual things such as being polite, opening conversations, hygiene & appearance** - that sort of stuff, and one of the things on there was about striking up a rapport; making the customer interested in the products, which was followed by another, which was about appearing enthusiastic & excited to the customer so that when you spoke to them they'd be 'infected' by your excitement & enthusiasm.
**Ye Gods I wish that line had applied to some of the customers. Sometimes it was as though they'd never had a shower. Was terrible at Salute this year in London - went to one busy stall and the stench from the accumulated people made my skin crawl.

(Ooooh 500 posts)

if GW wasent a CORPORATION and instead an individual, he wouldnt be able to please anyone

....I got nothing to say.

Well, I guess just this: On the one hand, if I were to buy the book, I'd think I'd be happier if it contained a bit less fluff and artwork and was cheaper, but if a book is gonna cost $75 bucks, it better have tons of stuff in it... and from what I've seen, it definitely does.

They still could have split it into two or three books and put them in a box. The Lord of the Rings usually doesn't come as one mega-book either.

My wife has already renamed the book 'spider killer'!

When I've got hold of a decent pdf copy I know what my rulebook will be used for more often

Jidmah wrote:They still could have split it into two or three books and put them in a box.

Please don't suggest that, you don't know who is reading!

Pacific wrote:

Jidmah wrote:They still could have split it into two or three books and put them in a box.

Please don't suggest that, you don't know who is reading!

Ay? 0.o

DarthSpader wrote:and, just a point: if the rulebook had been a 80 page job, with no fluff, no pics, no armie backgrounds, nothing else, aside from an intro and explanation of play and the rules.... people would STILL be up in arms, complaining that the book is too small, and its not worth it. heck, if gw even lowered the price to 40-50$ and didnt even bother with the cheapo version in the starter box (maybe you just get 50% off brb with starter set purchase) there would be a massive uproar. i agree with sgtsix here...

I was kind of sad to see it won't fit into my 720 with room for a codex, but such is life; I'll just get a copy of the little one as well whenever it comes out and use that as my travel copy. I would have been happy with the one you mention, but then again, I'm content enough with the book as is, even if I smirk and roll my eyes at the HHHobby section.

latley people on dakka have just.....got WHINEY. everything is bad. omg my army nerfed, the rules suck, the book is too big, fliers are broke, overwatch is broke, CC got nerfed, shooting didnt get nerfed enough, transports and vehicles got nerfed, mat ward... and so on and so on.... like really... if GW wasent a CORPORATION and instead an individual, he wouldnt be able to please anyone, because so far everything GW has done in the last year or more has been wrong. FFS...please...stop...the ...whining!

Lately? I've heard Dakka described as the GW complaint box before. I've complained about it. There's nothing really good that can be done. We're an insular echo chamber of hate and negativity, because it's easy and (for some reason I don't get) makes you feel cool.

the rulebook is awsome. its not bigger then 5th, its a respectable size, has alot of great reading, and makes alot of stuff that was vague in 5th clearer. and as with any massive game there will be "grey areas" - to be addressed via FAQ... but im betting even that wont be really good enough for anyone here.

I'm pretty impressed by it's composition and quality, overall.

SgtSixkilla wrote:I know now that they exist, I just don't think any of them are good enough to play. And AFAIK there are no independent gaming clubs anywhere within 500mi of where I live, and no, I never played at GW. But that's my point exactly. If those companies had been run the way GW is run, maybe I'd have seen them in a store somewhere. I haven't, ever. Only on the web. GW got me into the hobby because they were visible from where I was standing at that time. All those other companies were so far over my horizon I'd need a satellite to be able to see them. And Why? Because they're small, and usually, bad.

Actually you are not in the right corner of the gaming world then. While I agree wholeheartedly with your comments of why complain about a feature of GW products that has pretty much always been there and why give money to a company you think is evil, these other games *are* good and it is a good thing that they don't run their companies like GW. At my FLGS there is almost *zero* GW game play happening there. The mini gaming is taken up by Warmachine, Flames of War and Malifaux. There is also some dabbling in Dystopian Wars and its sister games.

Best example: Battlefront and Flames of War. Battlefront recent released Version 3 of their rules. Anyone who already owned the Version 2 hardback rulebook was entitled to receive a completely free softbound mini-rulebook for version 3. For the new version they did things very differently from GW:

1) The didn't change rules just to change them or "because it was a cool idea". They revised and fixed their rules.
2) The revisions they made fixed issues with the game that took away from game play and the fun of the game.
3) A lot of the fixes they made came about directly due to complaints from their player base about version 2.

At the end result version 3 is a tighter and more effective ruleset than version 2 was. It makes significant *improvements* to the game, but doesn't just add change for change's sake. Version 3 also has a separate modeling book included with it, so that the rulebook only includes rules. To top it off you can actually learn how to play the game without reading the actual rules by following through the multitude of pictured rules examples throughout the book. Beyond that Battlefront doesn't require its own minis to play in its tournements. You can use whatever manufacturers minis as you like as long as they are on the proper bases and painted appropriately.

The simple fact is that a lot of these companies are doing it *better* than GW and their market share is growing. People are turning away from GW in droves to stop spending $600 just to have a single full sized army to play in their games. To get into Flames of War you can buy the rulebook, the operations book and a complete armored army from Plastic Soldier Company for less than $200. That is a dramatic difference. The other games played locally to me also don't require huge expensive buy ins to get into the games. GW needs to think about its place in the market and adapt to not become a dinosaur. Eventually their "Our models are the best, so pay our crazy prices" marketing strategy will stop working for them as other game companies write better rules, don't require anywhere near the same costs to start and continue playing and improve their own minis slowly but surely.

I still love GW Minis and even though I play more Flames of War these days I still buy GW minis and make new armies and am quite happy with them. I make a decent living so don't really get bothered by the prices of GW's minis, but in many corners of the minigaming world GW is definitely losing its dominance.

Skriker

It seems that when people have nothing to be upset about, they make something up.

Too big? Really?... Really? You are complaining about getting your money's worth? That sounds awfully hypocritical seeing as how it is the other way around with you guys usually.

And this whole showcase advertisment thing. Does everything anyone does anymore have to have nefarious scheme behind it? Are all actions part of a conspiracy against you in one way or another? Maybe you don't like the showcase, but I absolutely LOVE seeing beautifully painted models on a gorgeous board that I will never be able to have.

Ignatius wrote:It seems that when people have nothing to be upset about, they make something up.

Too big? Really?... Really? You are complaining about getting your money's worth? That sounds awfully hypocritical seeing as how it is the other way around with you guys usually.

And this whole showcase advertisment thing. Does everything anyone does anymore have to have nefarious scheme behind it? Are all actions part of a conspiracy against you in one way or another? Maybe you don't like the showcase, but I absolutely LOVE seeing beautifully painted models on a gorgeous board that I will never be able to have.

I just wanted it in two books.

Purifier wrote:

Ignatius wrote:It seems that when people have nothing to be upset about, they make something up.

Too big? Really?... Really? You are complaining about getting your money's worth? That sounds awfully hypocritical seeing as how it is the other way around with you guys usually.

And this whole showcase advertisment thing. Does everything anyone does anymore have to have nefarious scheme behind it? Are all actions part of a conspiracy against you in one way or another? Maybe you don't like the showcase, but I absolutely LOVE seeing beautifully painted models on a gorgeous board that I will never be able to have.

I just wanted it in two books.

That comment was geared more towards the conspiracy theorists, but I guess I will be the counter to you. I don't want it in two books. I like it all together in one.

I like my big ol' GW books. Lots of lovely pictures and fluff to browse when I don't fancy looking at rules, curl up on the sofa sized. I also like the little starter set books - just the rules for use during gaming. Yeah, I end up spending more money, but I'd spend that much on other books from other systems if they produced them. I play WM and DW and would cheerfully have tomes and minis of the two of them. I didn't get into this hobby to save money.

Ignatius wrote:It seems that when people have nothing to be upset about, they make something up.

Welcome to the internet and indeed the world!

Too big? Really?... Really? You are complaining about getting your money's worth? That sounds awfully hypocritical seeing as how it is the other way around with you guys usually.

To be fair, there are playability issues with a huge book and most of it is irrelevant for gameplay. I don't really have a problem with it, but it was somewhat unnecessary. For $75, I don't think it's bad for what you get at all, it's just that 90% of us would have been just as well, if not better, served by a cheaper, smaller book. Battlefront for instance managed to put out a hardcover rulebook the size of the 5E book, a hobby supplement booklet, and a larger-than-SM-Codex-sized book with multiple different army lists for each faction and background packaged together for $60.

Maybe you don't like the showcase, but I absolutely LOVE seeing beautifully painted models on a gorgeous board that I will never be able to have.

Most people do, but that's why we have the internet and stuff like Cool Mini or Not. Paying for full color printouts is expensive.

i will also point out, that the newest whfb rulebook also got a massive increase in size... but it also set a nice trend. i especially like the nice attached bookmark/ribbon thing. thats like one of the best ideas ever. now they only need to have the ability to add like 6 more to it, so i can avoid mucking up my nice book with post its.

- and when i said "latley dakka has been whiney" i was referring not to the fact people complain, just the QUALITY of those complaints have gotten more... juvinile. complaints about stuff that just dosent make sense, things that have been changed but not the way people want...and heck even about the person behind a codex. (i dislike wards codexs as much as anyone, but there is a line)

also, to those of you who complain 6th is too large... compared to 5th, its about a 1/4 inch thicker. its also about 20% heavier, but not much more then a 2l bottle of soda. (i dont have an exact way of measuring weight atm - at work and no scales.) so the size increase is really not that significant. in fact its pretty comparable and almost bang on with the fantasy brb.

but i guess.... haters gonna hate. someone should make a meme for that.... dress the 6th book up in a top hat and monacle or something and have it strutting.... too bad my 'shop skills suck.

I plan on buying a handheld scanner like

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16838135010&Tpk=handheld%20scanner

keepign my codexes and big book in my bag along with codexes and just scan then printout the actual relevant codex entries and army points sections for quicker refrence

with allies I'd rather have 3 small bound self made books minus the fluff around than 3 books lef topen and arouns bending the spines.

as long as you live in the US as logn as you use your scan of your book and are nto selling or redistributing it is perfectly legal... just don't load your scans to a file sharing site of give them to others as that would be breaking US copyright law... other countries laws vary though

Ignatius wrote:

Purifier wrote:

Ignatius wrote:It seems that when people have nothing to be upset about, they make something up.

Too big? Really?... Really? You are complaining about getting your money's worth? That sounds awfully hypocritical seeing as how it is the other way around with you guys usually.

And this whole showcase advertisment thing. Does everything anyone does anymore have to have nefarious scheme behind it? Are all actions part of a conspiracy against you in one way or another? Maybe you don't like the showcase, but I absolutely LOVE seeing beautifully painted models on a gorgeous board that I will never be able to have.

I just wanted it in two books.

That comment was geared more towards the conspiracy theorists, but I guess I will be the counter to you. I don't want it in two books. I like it all together in one.

It's a ad, just like the cartoon/moive G.I. Joe, Transformer, He-Man, Care Bears, and the rest. It is there to sell there product.

No conspiracy, just a fact.