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TedNugent wrote:

spacewolf407 wrote:Unfortunately, they can do whatever they want because they know we'll buy it anyway.

Speak for yourself, chief.

^

GW's price increases haven't been greater than inflation over time.

Go to your local grocery store and look at the price of bacon. It will make you feel much better about 40k.

In this particular case, the price hike in a euro-denominated product probably has something to do with the collapsing value of the euro as well.

Mordechai wrote:Just makes the cheaper games to get into much more attractive. It's the reason I started collecting Warmachine.

model price jumps is why i started malifeax as well but the issue is people have so much 40k stuff it shard to find a game... plus i honestly like 40k better. I do occationally ge tin a game with my Lady justice box plus peacekeepr crew

then again i have alot of money in my 40k armies and at this point have so many models i'm ok with adding in a new unit here and there to keep competative.. i do think 40k is more and mroe becoming a mostly those who play keep playing and attracting fewer and fewer new players. at my flgs lots of teenagers come talk to use at the tables see the game played and really seem to want to try playing, sometimes if they have time and don't have hygene problems i'll let em use one of my loaner armies and play a 2 v one with me helping them but usually no matter how excited they are abotu the gaem they go look at the prices for models and just find it cost prohibitive.

Ailaros wrote:GW's price increases haven't been greater than inflation over time.

Go to your local grocery store and look at the price of bacon. It will make you feel much better about 40k.

In this particular case, the price hike in a euro-denominated product probably has something to do with the collapsing value of the euro as well.

Can't speak for inflation, but this is the value of the pound vs the Euro in the last five years:

So in the past 5 years, all other things being equal (i.e. ignoring inflation), GW are receiving 13% less money. During 2009 it was about a third less...

I definitely agree that the price difference for Australians is beyond outrageous. That being said some people should look at how much other hobbies cost. Computer or console gaming costs can easily run into the thousands (at least hundreds for the latter), marathons can be well over a hundred bucks, instruments are typically fairly expensive for anything that is worth keeping, even a night at the movies can cost you $30...you get the idea

Now I don't say of that because I'm trying to defend GW's marketing, but for me at least it provides me with some justification for continuing to collect the models and occasionally play the game. I personally wish GW would lower their prices so more people could afford the game. 40K is a great game and I think if more people could afford it they could get more people interested in the hobby and all of their model sales would increase rather than just those of the latest codex. Having better sales only when they release new stuff is also extremely expensive (not only from an artist standpoint, but also an engineering) and encourages to do higher quantities of new work while at a lower quality. If GW doesn't change some of their business structure they very well may run out of dedicated followers, but I guess compared to the other hobbies its worth it (I love the modeling and painting aspect of the hobby) enough for me to stay on board until the boat goes under.

That being said there still is no reason you can't play 40k (surely you have at least one competent army) and start Warmachine. GW doesn't gain profit if all you do is play. If enough people did it they might even take a hint and rethink their business model.

Sorry for the long words, my thoughts just kept getting longer, but I hope everyone takes what I'm saying the right way. I certainly am not a die hard GW fan, but I don't think you necessarily have to give up 40k to give them that message...at least I don't want to think that anyways.

TedNugent wrote:

spacewolf407 wrote:Unfortunately, they can do whatever they want because they know we'll buy it anyway.

Speak for yourself, chief.

I think he's almost right Nuge. GW is playing the odds. Some people will leave the hobby, but a lot of people have so much invested in 40K already they'll just bite down hard and pay anyway. GW will make up the money lost to people leaving with the increased revenue.

Also...for me at least 40K costs about the same as Golf. For some reason, I don't see golfers complaining about how much their irons cost. Their wives do.

GW's price increases haven't been greater than inflation over time.

I find that very hard to bellieve.
When I first started (fall of 1989) a box of 30 plastic Space Marines cost something like 20-24$. A blister of six metal miniatures was 6-7$. I have not bought anything new for quite some time, so I had to look it up. Looking on GW's web site a box of 5 Space Marines is now 25$. To get the same number of plastic figures that your 24$ bought you back in the day it will run you 150$. Has the general rate of inflation since 1990 or so really gone up 500%? I doubt it. It's harder to figure the overall price increase of the blister I mentioned above as GW no longer does metal miniatures. But the finecast crap is close enough to make a comparison. A blister of six Eldar in 1990 cost around six or seven dollars. Now six Eldar finecast models is 41.25$. That's about a 600% increase. Shall I talk about vehicle kits? Ok, it's not remotely fair for me to compare the original Land Raider kit that packaged two models for 24$. (I wish I had bought every one of those I could lay my hands on in hindsight). So let's go with the second Land Raider box which was about 24$ in the early '90s. What are they running now? 75$? Well, that's a real deal at only a 300% increase in price!

As galling as GW's "five dollars here, 15 dollars there" price increases over the years are, they still have not topped their all time biggest rip off/price increase. That occured in the summer of 1993 when they took advantage of a more or less baseless lead scare to change over from a lead based to a tin based alloy. They made a big deal in a White Dwarf at thre time that they were doing this to "protect their customers" and that the price of metal minitaure blisters would not go up a single penny. When the new non-lead figures showed up the following month, they were right. The sticker price for the blisters was the same. But the content of most infantry blisters had dropped from six to three models! Yes, GW took advantage of media hype to put in place a 100% price increase...all the while cynically lying about what they did.

TR

Yeah, GW are just doing it all wrong. No, i havent gone to uni to study marketing, but wouldnt lowering the price to make it accessable to more people (who would then buy more), make more sense than raising the price?

I mean, to even start playing you need to spend $180 (AUD), 124 for the rulebook, 55 for a codex. And then come the models... and the paints ($6 each), and the tools ($25 each)

In australia, everyone i know buys from Ebay from americans or euros, and even with postage we're paying a good 20-40% less than our local models.
But what gets me the most is that those of us that want to buy from stores in eu/us, we arent allowed to, the stores arent allowed to sell to us because GW want to drain AU of more money...

imo, have one worldwide set price. I and everyone i know would happily pay the american price for models, but multiple prices for multiple countries just seems like the most horrific cash grab there is.

Dragonzord wrote:Yeah, GW are just doing it all wrong. No, i havent gone to uni to study marketing, but wouldnt lowering the price to make it accessable to more people (who would then buy more), make more sense than raising the price?

I mean, to even start playing you need to spend $180 (AUD), 124 for the rulebook, 55 for a codex. And then come the models... and the paints ($6 each), and the tools ($25 each)

In australia, everyone i know buys from Ebay from americans or euros, and even with postage we're paying a good 20-40% less than our local models.
But what gets me the most is that those of us that want to buy from stores in eu/us, we arent allowed to, the stores arent allowed to sell to us because GW want to drain AU of more money...

imo, have one worldwide set price. I and everyone i know would happily pay the american price for models, but multiple prices for multiple countries just seems like the most horrific cash grab there is.

gw paint >_<... gw paint is terribad

agrred on book prices though they are pricey can't wait for the starter set . at least the new rulebook as weapon stats in it though so you can likely pull off starter set armies without an army codex once they release 6th ed one. sad thing is people still buying AoBR thinking its an up to date 40k game rulebook

eh, black reach in au is still $165... compared to America's $99

The one that makes me lol the most is the realm of battle gameboard... US price - $290. AU price - $450. lulwut.

G00fySmiley wrote:gw paint >_<... gw paint is terribad

Not all of it... I can't speak for the new stuff, but there was some that were alright from the last lot.

The twist lids though, those were demonic.

In britain, using GBP:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440270a&prodId=prod1060108
From £65 to £80

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440206a&prodId=prod1090186
From £65 to £80


Wtf...?

EDIT: Does anyone remember that the SM codex started out at £15?

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440270a&prodId=prod1550002
It's now £25.

Dragonzord wrote:eh, black reach in au is still $165... compared to America's $99

The one that makes me lol the most is the realm of battle gameboard... US price - $290. AU price - $450. lulwut.

At least it only went up $15 this time, last time it was from $100 straight to $150 if I remember correctly or it was $130. One of the two.
RoBGB, I don't think it's that worth it at any of the prices. But if you need lazy skull pits, then its a good way to get skull pits.

Bobthehero wrote:Uh... uh...

Wait a few years then go Forgeworld, problem solved

Hahahahahahahaha! This is awesomeness!

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ailaros wrote:GW's price increases haven't been greater than inflation over time.

Go to your local grocery store and look at the price of bacon. It will make you feel much better about 40k.

In this particular case, the price hike in a euro-denominated product probably has something to do with the collapsing value of the euro as well.

But GW products are not euro-denominated. The UK still uses the Pound sterling as its baseline currency. They never switched to the euro.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grugknuckle wrote:Also...for me at least 40K costs about the same as Golf. For some reason, I don't see golfers complaining about how much their irons cost. Their wives do.

My ex used to complain about my mini costs too. Well once you have your clubs you are good to go and the rules of golf don't change every 5 years requiring you to make changes to your golf club selection. Of course the fees at golf courses have gotten higher and I hear golfers in my area complaining about that all the time. Just because they don't complain about their clubs doesn't mean they don't get hit with higher prices in other areas and complain about that just as much as people here complain about GW.

Skriker

I remember when the battleforce boxes were first ever released... 10 Tactical marines, 5 Terminators (the old space hulk plastic ones), 3 space marine bikes and a landspeeder iirc... all for £40 iirc...

So a price increase of around 20% per year... wonder how long they can keep it up?... I say 10 years tops...

JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:I remember when the battleforce boxes were first ever released... 10 Tactical marines, 5 Terminators (the old space hulk plastic ones), 3 space marine bikes and a landspeeder iirc... all for £40 iirc...

So a price increase of around 20% per year... wonder how long they can keep it up?... I say 10 years tops...

When a box of tactical marines costs £50 (£5 per marine), GW will probably go bankrupt.

Well they are almost half way there already. So I'll change that to 10-15 years tops then... And I think GW will probably be bankrupt way before it gets to £50 for 10, I mean would you even pay £30 for 10?

GW is the only company in the universe that tries to improve profit by reducing demand.


Oh, and you can't tell me that Imperial Bastions going from $30 - $41 (with the advent of 6th edition) has a d***ed thing to do with inflation.

n0t_u wrote:

G00fySmiley wrote:gw paint >_<... gw paint is terribad

Not all of it... I can't speak for the new stuff, but there was some that were alright from the last lot.

The twist lids though, those were demonic.

i guess its a price to quality thing for me.. thier prices are even higher then better quality pots.. heck i think i can do better with cheap americana acrylic paint at 99 cents for a 8 ounce bottle that closes better (gw pots seem designed to have the pain dry out after opening >_< maybe its just the few gw paints i biught but i was not happy with the product... though thier primer is really second to none that i've found so far so i do use that

fleetofclaw wrote:GW is the only company in the universe that tries to improve profit by reducing demand.

Yarp.

For Australians...

The UK pound vs Australian dollars.
Looks like GW have been taking the piss

Great White wrote:We should all go to Britain and start a siege at GW HQ.

We are the 99%!
Occupy GW!
Let us hear the lamentation of their women!

Nelson wrote:

Great White wrote:We should all go to Britain and start a siege at GW HQ.

We are the 99%!
Occupy GW!
Let us hear the lamentation of their women!

And their miniatures!!

You know, I actually want to do that..
EDIT: I was considering starting a new army, but when I realised it was going to cost me £71.00 just to get a legal list, I was really pissed off.

Skriker wrote:But GW products are not euro-denominated.

They are when they're being sold in countries that use Euros.

Testify wrote:this is the value of the pound vs the Euro in the last five years:

Also, there's probably some forethought put into it. It's not just how the Euro has gone compared to the pound recently, but it also probably reflects what GW expects the Euro to do in the near future.

And since there's the faintest possibility that there won't even BE euros in the next 5 years, much less that they have any value...

Testify wrote:Can't speak for inflation...

Here's the quote I've got to dust off every time someone complains about GW price hikes...

Ailaros wrote:In 1987, space marines were £0.75 apiece. The price for a litre of petrol in 1987 was £0.387. In 2012, the price of a space marine is £2.30 apiece. The price of a litre of petrol as of this month is £1.338.

The cost of a space marine has increased just about 200%, while the price of petrol has increased 245%. During that same time period the price of gold has increased just slightly less than that (194%), while the price of a pound of bacon has nearly quadrupled (increase of 293%). The price of ground beef has gone up 83% in the last three years alone, much less the last 25.

Plus, even if GW increased its prices slightly over the cost of inflation, you've got to look at the quality of the product itself. 25 years ago, you basically couldn't find anybody to play the game with you, and the minis looked like this:



... to a game where its easy to find someone to play (with better rules), and that has minis that look like this:



What we're talking about is a game that has gotten cheaper, or stayed the same (or at absolute worst, gotten slightly more expensive) compared to inflation, while also being a bigger, better, more popular game with a much higher quality product.

The price of 40k has not substantially increased over the cost of inflation over time, all for a marked jump in quality.

Aprion wrote:Actually kroot when I checked the site just a few days back the prices were still their old value. So please spare me that cheeky lip.

Price increase for battleforces etc. took effect 1st June worldwide, and that includes the Netherlands.
See this abbreviated US-list which explicitely includes the battleforces (German list is similar, also including all battleforces):
http://silverspringhobby.blogspot.de/2012/05/gw-2012-annual-price-increase-june-1st.html?m=1

Kroothawk wrote:

Aprion wrote:Actually kroot when I checked the site just a few days back the prices were still their old value. So please spare me that cheeky lip.

Price increase for battleforces etc. took effect 1st June worldwide, and that includes the Netherlands.
See this abbreviated US-list which explicitely includes the battleforces (German list is similar, also including all battleforces):
http://silverspringhobby.blogspot.de/2012/05/gw-2012-annual-price-increase-june-1st.html?m=1

Who wants to work out the average based on sales volumes?

Here's the quote I've got to dust off every time someone complains about GW price hikes...

You really should be ashamed of yourself for posting something so blatantly misleading as to be intellectually dishonest like that, Ailaros.

First off you are attempting to compare the prices of gold and gasoline to that of GW models? The former are commodities that are well known for extreme price increases and in the case of gasoline is notorious for extreme price fluxuation. That's not comparing apples and oranges. That's comparing apples and bricks! A more valid comparison would be to contrast GWs pricing with that of other wargame companies. It's hard to get a good solid comparison because many of GW's contemporaries from the time period we are talking about are either out of business or I don't recall their pricing circa 1990, but I'll use one I am familar with. Old Glory started selling their 15mm ACW and Napoleonic lines around 1990 and at the time they charged 20$ for a bag of 100 figures. Today the list price for the same figures is 20$ for 48 figures. That's a 100% price hike in the same time frame as GW's 3-600% increases. Like I said, it's not the best comparison as they are different gaming genres and scales, but they do have similar sized figures lines and market saturation in their respective markets.

Second, I'm not sure were you got your pricing for Space Marine figures, but they are way off. Did you not see my post above? (more likely willfully ignored the uncomfortable facts, but that's another topic).. In the period 1990 to the present the building blocks of a 40k army have increased between 300 to 600%, not 200% as you state.

Finally, the difference in quality between then and now is not the topic of this diccussion. In any event even an old model fan like myself will freely admit that quality in the sculpts has increased. (I don't care for the current "cluttered" style of the models, but that's another topic and is subjective anyway...) But you lost your credibility entirely when you posted a blurry photo of a very badly painted early dreadnaught along side a studio quality photo of a very well painted current edition model in an attempt to make a point. I'm reminded of an article titled "40k revised" that apeared in WD some ten years ago. It was trying to make the same point by showing very nicely painted current Space marine models along side a badly painted one piece plastic 2nd edition model (those were bad sculpts even by the standards of those days) and an UNPAINTED plastic RT "beaky" marine. So kudos to you, son. You successfully emulated the same intelectually dishonest tactic that GW themselves utlitized. You've learned well, apparently. I could play the same game of course. I could dig up a photo of a very well painted miniature from one of the top level GW studio painters of the early '90s like Mike McVay or scan something from one of my '89 and '90 Golden Daemon Awards Yearbooks and contrast it with a photo from Ebay showing a current model that was painted by an eight year old. But what would that prove?

I would say "nice try", but that would be a lie...and I admit that I'm alot of things, but I am not a liar.

Drink that GW koolaid, boy! Choke it down!

TR

Trench-Raider wrote:

Here's the quote I've got to dust off every time someone complains about GW price hikes...

You really should be ashamed of yourself for posting something so blatantly misleading as to be intellectually dishonest like that, Ailaros.

First off you are attempting to compare the prices of gold and gasoline to that of GW models? The former are commodities that are well known for extreme price increases and in the case of gasoline is notorious for extreme price fluxuation. That's not comparing apples and oranges. That's comparing apples and bricks! A more valid comparison would be to contrast GWs pricing with that of other wargame companies. It's hard to get a good solid comparison because many of GW's contemporaries from the time period we are talking about are either out of business or I don't recall their pricing circa 1990, but I'll use one I am familar with. Old Glory started selling their 15mm ACW and Napoleonic lines around 1990 and at the time they charged 20$ for a bag of 100 figures. Today the list price for the same figures is 20$ for 48 figures. That's a 100% price hike in the same time frame as GW's 3-600% increases. Like I said, it's not the best comparison as they are different gaming genres and scales, but they do have similar sized figures lines and market saturation in their respective markets.

Second, I'm not sure were you got your pricing for Space Marine figures, but they are way off. Did you not see my post above? (more likely willfully ignored the uncomfortable facts, but that's another topic).. In the period 1990 to the present the building blocks of a 40k army have increased between 300 to 600%, not 200% as you state.

Finally, the difference in quality between then and now is not the topic of this diccussion. In any event even an old model fan like myself will freely admit that quality in the sculpts has increased. (I don't care for the current "cluttered" style of the models, but that's another topic and is subjective anyway...) But you lost your credibility entirely when you posted a blurry photo of a very badly painted early dreadnaught along side a studio quality photo of a very well painted current edition model in an attempt to make a point. I'm reminded of an article titled "40k revised" that apeared in WD some ten years ago. It was trying to make the same point by showing very nicely painted current Space marine models along side a badly painted one piece plastic 2nd edition model (those were bad sculpts even by the standards of those days) and an UNPAINTED plastic RT "beaky" marine. So kudos to you, son. You successfully emulated the same intelectually dishonest tactic that GW themselves utlitized. You've learned well, apparently. I could play the same game of course. I could dig up a photo of a very well painted miniature from one of the top level GW studio painters of the early '90s like Mike McVay or scan something from one of my '89 and '90 Golden Daemon Awards Yearbooks and contrast it with a photo from Ebay showing a current model that was painted by an eight year old. But what would that prove?

I would say "nice try", but that would be a lie...and I admit that I'm alot of things, but I am not a liar.

Drink that GW koolaid, boy! Choke it down!

TR

.....(I will not insult I will not insult) Plastic is made from petroleum, now I do have to say though this latest price hike doesn't quite make sense to me. How does Magic The Gathering do so well with cards becoming tournament useless in a year. Prices are good enough to continue or start the hobby. Quite frankly if GW slashed their prices even for a month I think they would see a massive boom in sales. Hell if they slashed the prices 30% for a month I think many people would buy new armies and expand current lists. Sure afterwords the idiotic accountants at GW would probably hike the prices further up afterwards since they would undoubtedly think people were just wanting to buy warhammer that month and hope people continue to buy at inflated prices.

All that I really hate about the price increases are those on kits or books that haven't been changed at all for years to make them need to raise the prices.

I mean I looked at the space marine codex and I was pretty surprised and had to check what I had paid for the eldar codex i got recently.

What in the SM codex changed for it to have a jump up in prices? It isn't hardback from what i can see, and they certainly haven't released a new version of that same codex with new things like they did for that electronic version; so what was it that made it jump to the same price as the WHFB hardbacks?

I told a co worker about 40k today. He seemed to think it was cool. I showed him a few pictures of my models, again he thought it was cool.

Told him a single stormraven cost $82.50.

Zero interest from that point on.

This game is priced well beyond anyone who wants to start.