Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ignatius wrote:I don't really care at this point.

I'll buy this crap pretty much no matter how much it costs. I like to think of it in these terms:

1st. 40k models are a one time buy and done deal. What I buy today will always be able to be used. Even if the company goes under it doesn't stop me from playing with my friends in the current edition. I think 100 dollars for 10 chaos terminators is a great investment. I get to play as much as I want with them and I get to paint and customize them any way I want.

I am also supporting the company that brought 40k into my life. I love 40k. I love the miniatures I love the rules I love painting I love playing with my pals and I love the fluff. This is a great game. It will always be. But it is just that. A game. Something to get your mind off of other things you are dealing with and become the commander of an army set in our galaxy 38,000 years from now. Great stuff. Maybe you would rather do something for your entertainment that is cheaper, and that's your right. But I prefer this.

I love this game. And I'll pay whatever they want to (basically) to continue to use their great product.

Don't you want more people to get in to the hobby though? More people to play with and against?

Trench-Raider wrote:But Petroleum prices fluxuate up and down from day to day and from year to year. GWs prices do not. Have you EVER heard of them lowering prices? Neither have I. Other companies do. To use Old Glory as an example again, a few years back there was a tin shortage and as a result OG raised their prices a bit. But when doing so, they made the promise that they would lower their prices again should the shortage disapear. Eventually the supply problems were corrected and OG lowered their prices again. GW had also raised their prices at the same time, citing the same reasons. Guess who's prices remained at the new level...until the next price increase of course. Just like they had with the '93 lead scare, GW cynically used a percieved crisis to raise prices. What is it that PoS Rahm Emanuel said a couple of years ago? "Never let a good crisis go to waste"?

I equate GW's practices with those of the airlines. Airline announcement: "Oh noes! Fuel prices have reached level X, we need to start charging Y fee to cover that." All well and good and the prices drop from level X and fee Y never goes away...then 6-8 months later the airlines announce: "Oh noes! Fuel prices have reached level X, we need to start charging Z fee to cover that." This of course expects us to ignore the fact that when prices reached level X before they already had to add fee Y to the equation and never took it away, but now fuel reached that level again they need yet *another* fee to cover the costs that they are really already covered with a previous fee being charged. GW does similar things and you are right their prices never go down and they never do sales either. I saw one GW grand re-opening sale local to me about 12 years ago and they offered everything in the store for 20% off. Up to that point I had never seen the line for the cash register so long before and I never saw it again either. People had arm loads of stuff to buy that day all because of a sale...

I really do love the latest round of increases that increased prices on things that will obviously be more popular in 6th edition, like fortifications of varying kinds. Of course it is due to cost increases. Really it is!

Skriker



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ignatius wrote:Quite frankly, I don't care.

God forbid someone not agree with everyone else. I'm sorry I don't prescribe to the same ideas as you all.

I don't really have a problem with your position Ignatius. In fact as long as I keep enjoying the figures, the modeling opportunities they present and playing the game with them I'll keep buying too. Prices have dramatically changed in the 25 or so years I have been playing these games, but my income has also increased by a bout 700% from that starting time frame too, so despite prices being higher I can afford to buy even more GW minis than I ever could when I started collecting them in the first place. I haven't yet decided what is too high for me, but I'm sure I'll get there eventually or I'll just find something else to indulge myself with instead and won't really make a "That is it, GW is too expensive!" call at all...

The only concern I have is that it is getting harder to bring new friends into this hobby and have them experience the same modeling enjoyment I get from the hobby. I have multiple armies and can bring anyone in as a player, but it is harder for them to afford to even start the hobby side of the equation now. If I wasn't already involved in 40k I probably wouldn't be able to convince myself to spend the money with the prices today, but since it is a big hobby for me already, I don't have to convince myself to try it at those prices. These days I find people locally shifting to more affordable games like Malifaux where you can get the rules and the minis you need for less than $100, or Warmachine where average force battle sizes are much smaller, or even Flames of War where minis are available in that genre and scale from a multitide of different manufacturers that cover just about every price range. I just bought an entire late war british armored company for about $75 for 2000 points of forces. It is hard to convince folks to pay $600 to have the rules and a full army in 40k when they can do the same thing in Flames of war for about $150. Money talks and makes a big difference for a lot of people.

Skriker

Purifier wrote:

Ignatius wrote:I don't really care at this point.

I'll buy this crap pretty much no matter how much it costs. I like to think of it in these terms:

1st. 40k models are a one time buy and done deal. What I buy today will always be able to be used. Even if the company goes under it doesn't stop me from playing with my friends in the current edition. I think 100 dollars for 10 chaos terminators is a great investment. I get to play as much as I want with them and I get to paint and customize them any way I want.

I am also supporting the company that brought 40k into my life. I love 40k. I love the miniatures I love the rules I love painting I love playing with my pals and I love the fluff. This is a great game. It will always be. But it is just that. A game. Something to get your mind off of other things you are dealing with and become the commander of an army set in our galaxy 38,000 years from now. Great stuff. Maybe you would rather do something for your entertainment that is cheaper, and that's your right. But I prefer this.

I love this game. And I'll pay whatever they want to (basically) to continue to use their great product.

Don't you want more people to get in to the hobby though? More people to play with and against?

What a silly question. Of course I do! I can't think of a better life than coming home from work, throwing down a game of 40k with a couple friends, go fish at sunset with them and do it all again tomorrow.

Do I like paying 50 bucks for 5 models? No, I hate spending money. But I understand that fun costs money (a lot of the time) and for how much fun this gives me, I'm happy to throw my money at GW.

Also Striker, reading that post you quoted me from makes me sound like an ass. I agree with you, but I was using a little bit of sarcasm in it.

I have been playing for less than a year. I'm not adding to my armies anymore and my armies aren't viable lists in the first place so I guess I am done playing. I don't have the money for the new rulebook. A lot of you are quoting long term statistics for inflation. Since I have joined though oil prices have gone down and I have seen 2 price increases not including finecast. I love the sentinel model and planned to get a bunch, and then they raised the price. Guess I will settle for one.

AnotherNoob wrote:I have been playing for less than a year. I'm not adding to my armies anymore and my armies aren't viable lists in the first place so I guess I am done playing. I don't have the money for the new rulebook. A lot of you are quoting long term statistics for inflation. Since I have joined though oil prices have gone down and I have seen 2 price increases not including finecast. I love the sentinel model and planned to get a bunch, and then they raised the price. Guess I will settle for one.

Men, its not all bad, in a few weeks the starter kit will come out and you'll be able to pick up the newmini rulebook for around 15 dollars. As for no longer having valid army lists, that happens every edition shift. As you get more models and more varied models, you can survive edition shifts pretty gracefully. Also 6th didn't mess up 5th lists too badly...

And there is always ebay. Lately I make my big purchases used, and then buy blisters and other stuff from gw to round out my armies. There is no reason to quit if you are still having fun.

Men, its not all bad, in a few weeks the starter kit will come out and you'll be able to pick up the newmini rulebook for around 15 dollars. As for no longer having valid army lists, that happens every edition shift. As you get more models and more varied models, you can survive edition shifts pretty gracefully. Also 6th didn't mess up 5th lists too badly...

And there is always ebay. Lately I make my big purchases used, and then buy blisters and other stuff from gw to round out my armies. There is no reason to quit if you are still having fun.

I think you misunderstood, my lists aren't invalid because of rule changes, they are bad because they have always been bad/ never have been finished. I love modeling and painting more the the game and I can model and paint elsewhere.

Im pissed off about this, but i guess GW can do whatever they want but we still have to buy from them :S

Trench-Raider wrote:A more valid comparison would be to contrast GWs pricing with that of other wargame companies.

It isn't, actually. Looking within only a single industry makes you blind to peculiarities within the industry. It would cause you to make errors similar to noticing the million percent growth rate of scientology over the last 20 years and being unable to see that religion, as a whole, has been decreasing worldwide.

Furthermore, if you're going to make a specific comparison, then you have to make a proper comparison. You can't look at 40k and flames of war and ONLY look at price while ignoring absolutely every other possible factor. There are way too many uncontrolled variables to take any such narrow comparison seriously.

Trench-Raider wrote: I'm not sure were you got your pricing for Space Marine figures, but they are way off.

Here, which if you would actually read posts before replying, you would have come across this information already. The link is to scans of the original packaging. You can clearly see both prices and the number of minis you get in the package.

If you disagree with this, perhaps you could provide some non-anecdotal evidence to the contrary?

Trench-Raider wrote:Finally, the difference in quality between then and now is not the topic of this diccussion.

You don't want to talk about value when talking about price?

The fact is that 40k has gotten a lot better. Larger, more detailed models. Better rules with more comprehensive fluff. More models to choose from. Many, many more gamers to play with. Just talking about price while ignoring what you get for your money doesn't make any sense.

Yes, other games by other companies in other circumstances have different prices, but that's tacit, not outrageous.

Furthermore, if heroclix, confrontation, AT43, and any of the myriad competitors to games workshop are, in fact, so much better, then why is everybody still playing 40k (despite price hikes), and it's more than a little challenging to stay in any other game for more than a couple of years?

Trench-Raider wrote:You really should be ashamed of yourself for posting something so blatantly misleading as to be intellectually dishonest like that, Ailaros.

So kudos to you, son. You successfully emulated the same intelectually dishonest tactic that GW themselves utlitized.

I would say "nice try", but that would be a lie...and I admit that I'm alot of things, but I am not a liar.

Drink that GW koolaid, boy! Choke it down!

Inflation happens. Insulting me to my face doesn't change reality.

The truth hurts. Get over it.

Ignatius wrote:reading that post you quoted me from makes me sound like an ass.

Reason is no cure for anger.

It isn't, actually. Looking within only a single industry makes you blind to peculiarities within the industry. It would cause you to make errors similar to noticing the million percent growth rate of scientology over the last 20 years and being unable to see that religion, as a whole, has been decreasing worldwide.

*yawn*
Wake me, when you have a valid point. The problem is that you are STILL comparing unrelated factors. I was hoping it was just a problem with your logic, but it looks from the rest of your post it's willful deception and misdirection.
Such as...

Here, which if you would actually read posts before replying, you would have come across this information already. The link is to scans of the original packaging. You can clearly see both prices and the number of minis you get in the package.

I did read the post, sport. I also have seen the link to the SoL site. (a favorite of mine) Look at your own link, son. The package scan of the plastic RTB01 Imperial Space Marines shows the sticker price as being 9.99 British pounds. If I recall, the exchange rate at the time hovered at around 2:1. So that box of marine 30 marine models would cost you around 20$US. That's exactly what I stated in my post and is at odds with that you claimed. Now you are just lying....which is not condusive to being taken seriously when it's so easy to check.

The fact is that 40k has gotten a lot better. Larger, more detailed models. Better rules with more comprehensive fluff. More models to choose from. Many, many more gamers to play with. Just talking about price while ignoring what you get for your money doesn't make any sense.

I fully agree that overall the quality has gotten better and I said as much. (although I dislike the "style of many of today's over-cluttered models...but that's another topic) What I objected to is the absurd way you tried to make your point by comparing an awful little kid paintjob to a studio work of a quality level that 99% of gamers will never achieve. That's purposely dishonest...but in keeping with the very tactics that your masters in Notingham have used in the past. Like I said, you've clearly learned well.

As to your other points, there has been an overall increase in the quality of the miniatures industry as a whole. It's not just GW. Look at Wargames Foundry for example. They've always been top noch in the industry, but compare the ranges they produced in the early '90s to the more recent ones. You will see a similar increase in quality. As to the increase in the size of the player base, I would content that this has had more to do with the increased popularity of the internet over the last 15 years or so than anything GW has actually done.

Inflation happens. Insulting me to my face doesn't change reality.

Yes, inflation does happen. But contrary to the excuses for GW you have been trying to peddle here, the overall rate has not been anywere near the 3-600% rate that GW's products have seen in the years since 40k showed up. And it's not just the prices. It's the awful way they have behaved toward their customers, their retailers, and their peers in the gaming industry. But I assume your just fine with their lies about their 100% price increase during the lead scare, their release of new RT core rules material two months before the release of 2nd edition, their "change for the sake of change" policy of forced obsolesence, the bully tactics they use on their competetors, the shutting down of fan web sites, the killing off of online retailers, etc?

By the by, you deserve to be insulted for the intellectually dishonest ways you've been trying to spin GW's behavior up to and including out and out lying.

The truth hurts. Get over it.

The problem is that there is not much truth in your posts, my friend. So I say again, you should really be ashamed of yourself.

TR

Ignatius wrote:Also Striker, reading that post you quoted me from makes me sound like an ass. I agree with you, but I was using a little bit of sarcasm in it.

Don't worry some of us understand the concept of sarcasm. That is how I took it when I read it anyway. Can't guarantee everyone would look at the same way and I am sure some folks did think you were being an ass. I just didn't have time to back up and find your original comments and quote them.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AnotherNoob wrote:I have been playing for less than a year. I'm not adding to my armies anymore and my armies aren't viable lists in the first place so I guess I am done playing. I don't have the money for the new rulebook. A lot of you are quoting long term statistics for inflation. Since I have joined though oil prices have gone down and I have seen 2 price increases not including finecast. I love the sentinel model and planned to get a bunch, and then they raised the price. Guess I will settle for one.

When the new boxed set comes out you should be able to get the 6th edition mini rulebook, without all the modeling and fluffy sections, for about $15 to $20 on ebay. Also ebay is a prime time now to look for minis to fill in your armies with rage quitters dumping their collections in a fit of pique. Ebay is always a good source for 40k minis, as beyond the rage quitters there are always people who are moving on from the hobby or people who want to raise money for a new army selling stuff off there. There are also online options like thewarstore.net where you can get any of the plastic sets for 20% off, but eventually even 20% off gets expensive when the prices get too high.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ailaros wrote:Furthermore, if heroclix, confrontation, AT43, and any of the myriad competitors to games workshop are, in fact, so much better, then why is everybody still playing 40k (despite price hikes), and it's more than a little challenging to stay in any other game for more than a couple of years?

It all depends on where you are. In my FLGS there are almost never any WFB, LotR or W40k games played at all. There are regular event days for Warmachine, Malifaux and Flames of War and all 3 have a strong following. There are also a ton of Magic and L5R players, with the store being one of the largest L5R coteries in the country with players regularly placing highly in national events. I play 40k at home on my own table because people just aren't interested in my FLGS. Recently the owner sold off all of his 40k stock to a new start up store for cost just to get it out of the way for more stuff for the games that sell.

My own FLGS is not unique in this situation either. Many places have seen GW games drop out of favor primarily because of prices. It is hard to get people into a game with a baseline startup cost of $400-$500 for rules and a baseline army with no options for varied play and that doesn't include any of the modeling/hobby side costs either. And yes direct price comparisons between 40k, Flames of war and others are completely valid as that difference is the primary reason why many people choose not to play 40k anymore. There are still some local stores that push 40k and WFB as much as they can, but the numbers of players just aren't the same. Used to be on league days you could barely move in the stores and they would have 10 full tables in the basement and another 10 going in the main room upstairs, but now everyone fits on the tables in the basement and the crowds are gone. Interest is definitely flagging locally to me even in those long time bastions of GW support.

I have been playing Flames of War for 4 years now, and the contingent of players at my FLGS continues to grow for the game. People see the game played and love it and when they see the prices compared to anything from GW, they are pleasantly surprised that they can get into the game without selling organs on the black market...

Skriker

Easing the pain for our Australian and New Zealand cousins. Buy at UK RRP. Check my sig.

Trench-Raider wrote:
I did read the post, sport. I also have seen the link to the SoL site. (a favorite of mine) Look at your own link, son. The package scan of the plastic RTB01 Imperial Space Marines shows the sticker price as being 9.99 British pounds. If I recall, the exchange rate at the time hovered at around 2:1. So that box of marine 30 marine models would cost you around 20$US. That's exactly what I stated in my post and is at odds with that you claimed. Now you are just lying....which is not condusive to being taken seriously when it's so easy to check.

According to this inflation calculator that I had to use because the Bank of England's one is down (grr government websites), their price today would be £22.08, which is the exact same price as today! By jove.
Problem is, you get 10 less...
So, do you think a modern space marine is worth 1.5 times as much as one of the old ones? Personally I'd say definitely.
Adding on to that, the price of oil (the main componant of plastic) in 1988 was $14.87. Since the models went from 30p to £1.15, a 3.8 fold increase, we can expect the price of oil today to be $56 a barrel, right?

So, do you think a modern space marine is worth 1.5 times as much as one of the old ones? Personally I'd say definitely.

It's subjective/a matter of personal opinion of course. But as far as the original RBT01 plastic Imperial Space Marines compared to the current equivelant, I would agree. Now when you compare the best metals of that era (Jes Goodwin's Eldar, Kev Adam's Space Orks, pretty much anything the Perrys did etc) to the most recent metal miniatures and (especially) the "finecast" stuff, not so much. But let me go over this again...

I'm going to use US pricing here, so pardon me for that. The price for 30 RTB01 Marines circa 1990 was about 20$US. I recall payng 24$ at my local hobby shop in 1990, but that may be either my faulty memory or the local mark-up. But let's run with 20$. For the pendantic "that's annectotal! Prove it!" sort of poster, about three posts up there is a link to a scan of an ad for the TRB01 box showing it's cost at the time of release. Now flash forward to 2012. Now, for some odd reason my workplace firewall is blocking the GW site tonight, while it was not doing so yesterday. So I'll have to link to Amazon instead. Sorry about that.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CEM3EA/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1/186-6967057-7908015?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_r=0NXJTZV4AJW429YX7CFH&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_i=B000CEM3E0
The full price shown for the Space Marine Combat Squad box is 25$US, which if I'm not mistaken is the same as shown at the GW web store. Now to get the same number of Space Marine models as the RTB01 box provided, you will need to buy six of those Combat Squad boxes at a total cost of 150$US, not including any shipping, assuming you bought it through GW mail order. That is a whopping 750% (my previous estimate was actually too LOW as I was figuring the initial cost at my remembered price of 25$) increase rather than the mere 150% you state above.

So yes. I would gladly pay 1.5 times what they used to cost and call that good deal. But 750%? No way.

Now before anyone points it out and accuses me of being dishonest, yes I know I used a "worst case example" by comparing the original price to the Combat Squad box. (one of the worst rip offs that GW currently sells...the only thing worse being the single plastic Space Marine character boxes) I am aware that ten figure Marine boxes exist in the price range of about 40$. When you use them as a benchmark, you get a 600% price increase instead....which is bad enough. I was illustrating the worse case scenario, as I stated to make a point.

TR

tallerguy wrote:Easing the pain for our Australian and New Zealand cousins. Buy at UK RRP. Check my sig.

But you don't have a sig ATM...

Great White wrote:We should all go to Britain and start a siege at GW HQ.

Occupy GW? The 99% who can't spend $100+ on plastic miniatures?

The main issue here that always makes me chuckle in terms of the wailing and gnashing of teeth about GW price increases, is where many posters on various forums all say "GW are so stupid, increasing prices, people wont buy at those prices, if they halved their prices they would sell twice as much".

However in practice this doesnt work, what happens when you halve the price is that you sell the same amount as you would at the current price but for half the profit.

People dont buy 20 space marines when all they want is 10, but they now get 20 for the price of 10.

People just want to buy the army they want to play with, they are not going to get a 3000 point force just because it costs the same as a 1500 point force would if GW halved their prices etc.

There has also been a lot of talk about inflation and how GW proces are not in line with them. Well they are in line with inflation, but they have also increased with the increased costs of paying staff (minimum wage introduction), costs of materials, R&D on moulds and new models (this is actually one of the most expensive things a company does), all of these have incremental costs which need to be accounted for in price rises, its the same for any company.

Look at VW for example, a golf GTI would have cost you about £12k in 1990 say, now a golf GTI will cost you about £30k, its essentially the same item you are buying, but the new car is leagues better than the car from 20 years ago, and as the average salary increases, so too does the cot of goods, so in effect you are paying a similar amount for your items that you paid 20 years ago.

Also the main issue is GW products are a luxury item, they are not bread and milk, if you cant afford them, well thats a shame, but its not the companies fault, they set the price which research has shown consumers are willing to pay (and plenty still do), its not a charity, its a simple business and they have shareholders to please, and profits to make.

I wish a new audi a3 didnt cost some £35k, as i cant afford it, but thats the situation, and when compared with buying an xbox or ps3 and a few games, GW armies are in no way exceptionally more expensive, and give just as much hours of enjoyment through painting and gaming.

These arguments of price have been stated for some 15 years, GW is still here and folk still buy the models, by the previous internet discussions and expectations of what the price increases would do, GW should have been out of business some 10 years ago!

money for the money god, coins for the throne of currency..

(GW is the hobby wing of the reptillian pyramid of power)

However in practice this doesnt work, what happens when you halve the price is that you sell the same amount as you would at the current price but for half the profit.

While this is probably true of people who weren't going to stop buying anyway, or the addicts who can't stop themselves from buying, I would counter that if the price of GW miniatures was substantially lower (not necessarily so much as 50% lower), I know I would buy something in the neighborhood of 60 or 70 models (or however many models are in an average 2000pt 40K army) instead of the 0 models I have bought in the past two years, and the 0 GW models I intend to buy in the future. It'd also be much easier to attract new blood if the cost of entry was dramatically lowered.

With that said, and like I said at the beginning, there are clearly lots of people who still think it's worth it and people who piss and moan and buy anyway, and as long as there enough of those people to keep things profitable, (really, as long as the shareholders are happy) GW will keep raising prices.

Eventually, though, I have to imagine they'll hit a point of diminishing returns where even diehard fans might start reconsidering the value for money they're getting, but obviously they haven't hit that point yet. And even then, as long as enough people still buy, then it's no skin off of GW's nose. Hypothetically, if they sell (random numbers for argument's sake) 100,000 Tactical Squads at $40 each, but ten years from now (extreme example incoming!) they sell 10 Tactical Squads at $400,000+adjustments for inflation.... well, then sales numbers for that year are as good as they were ten years ago. Heck, probably even better because it'd cost them less to produce fewer models.

If they want substantial long-term growth, I think they're going about it the wrong way, but if they just want to skate along making a tidy profit, then they're probably going to be in good shape for a while.

What makes me chuckle is that every time this subject comes up, some GW apologists pops in with the "it's a luxury product, suck it up!" argument. It's like clockwork. The bottom line is that GW's prices ARE out of line with both the overall rate of inflation and with comparable products in the wargame industry. Here is a great example. Check this out: a box of 30 Perry Miniatures multi-piece plastic Sudan Campaign figures. http://www.perry-miniatures.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_62&products_id=2593
I just bought a couple of these for my own Colonial Wars games and they are very nice....top notch in fact. The sitcker price on these is 18 British Pounds, or about 28$US at today's exchange rate. 30 very nice plastic figures for considerably less than what 10 similar GW figures cost. Before someone tries to make the lame "better quality" argument keep in mind that these are Perry miniatures. For the kiddies out there who have not been around the block, the Perry twins are indisputably some of the best miniatures sculptors in the business. They were responsible for some of GW's best ranges. (before they quit to concentrate on Foundry and eventually break off and found their own company that is..) So that argument does not hold water and the comparison is valid.

The apologists, fanboys, and koolaid drinkers can make all the invalid comparisons, faulty arguments, and in some cases lie all they want. But the facts are not on their side.

That being said, they are right on one point: GW's sickening prices (and other shady behavior) is indeed the fault of their customers because they keep buying the products. I don't. I enjoy the game too much and have too many figures to stop playing, But I have not bought anything new or at full price in years. I troll Ebay for second hand product, use the "counts as" rule to it's fullest extent to make my older stuff valid with current rules, <content removed by an over-zealous Dakka staffer> etc. And I encourage others to do so as well. If enough people did that, GW would change their behavior.

TR

Really, I just vote with my wallet. I don't think GW's stuff is worth what they charge for it, so I don't buy GW's stuff. I don't tell my friends about GW's stuff, or if it comes up I encourage them not to buy it (which isn't hard when they see how much it costs to get started). Other than that, no skin off my nose what they do. Am I bummed about it? Yeah. But I just buy miniatures for and play other games that I (personally, YMMV) enjoy just as much, if not more. They certainly give me far more bang for my buck, IMO (and no, that's not sour grapes, I started playing a couple of other non-GW games while I was still playing Warhammer). I was pretty venomous about it during the last price hike, but I've come to realize that in the long run, it doesn't really matter. It's just a damn game and they're just (expensive, fancy) toys.

I have to kind of chuckle, though, at the people who are all "BAWWW TOO EXPENSIVE" but then still buy it. I'm sure GW is chuckling at them too. In fact, they're laughing, all the way to the bank.

Trench-Raider wrote:What makes me chuckle is that every time this subject comes up, some GW apologists pops in with the "it's a luxury product, suck it up!" argument. It's like clockwork. The bottom line is that GW's prices ARE out of line with both the overall rate of inflation and with comparable products in the wargame industry. Here is a great example. Check this out: a box of 30 Perry Miniatures multi-piece plastic Sudan Campaign figures. http://www.perry-miniatures.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_62&products_id=2593
I just bought a couple of these for my own Colonial Wars games and they are very nice....top notch in fact. The sitcker price on these is 18 British Pounds, or about 28$US at today's exchange rate. 30 very nice plastic figures for considerably less than what 10 similar GW figures cost. Before someone tries to make the lame "better quality" argument keep in mind that these are Perry miniatures. For the kiddies out there who have not been around the block, the Perry twins are indisputably some of the best miniatures sculptors in the business. They were responsible for some of GW's best ranges. (before they quit to concentrate on Foundry and eventually break off and found their own company that is..) So that argument does not hold water and the comparison is valid.

The apologists, fanboys, and koolaid drinkers can make all the invalid comparisons, faulty arguments, and in some cases lie all they want. But the facts are not on their side.

And what comparible products are these, you mean the likes of flames of war, Privateer Press, perry miniatures etc, these are all niche products, when compared with GW's business model, sales wise, they cant afford to charge much higher prices as if people stopped buying their products they would suffer a real risk of struggling as a business, GW's benefit is that they can make revenue from other areas such as books, IP licence use and the old chestnut of "The Brand", that is GW's big trump card, its the name everyone knows, if you ask most people, they will have heard of GW, mention Privateer Press, Malifaux, etc most wont have a clue who they are (these are non gaming people etc.)

Also not all gaming companies that rival GW are massively cheaper, PP sells 5 menoth knights plastic figures in a box, £25, now as you need less miniatures to play a game of warmachine this seems like a deal, but to get 10 marines in a box is about £15 so to get a commander and 2 tactical marines costs you £46 rounded up, to get a warcaster a couple warjacks and 5 infantry models from PP costs £54, this isnt a massive difference in costs to play a basic game, granted these are rough figures i gleaned from internet shops, but the gulf of pricing isnt that massive.

GW is also the only tabletop game that plays on as large a scale in terms of numbers of models, where most other companies work as smaller skirmish games.

As for invalid comparisons, why is a car manufacturer and different from GW, its selling a product, there are different manufacturers offering different things at different prices, some people want a ferrari and can afford it, some people want an audi and cant afford it, some people want a kia but cant afford it, and then there is the second hand market which is a whole other ball game!

By all means buy the models you want, but i always find it odd that people think that GW are going to price themselves out of the market when business history has proven that a lot of people are quite price insensetive, unless there is a HUGE sudden increase, which most businesses wont do, its not like you dont see plenty of new kids in GW whenever i am in and they all have plenty of armies, i would say there are as many kids playing now as there were when i started playing in 1992.

The price increases haven't really upset me that much, however I'm glad they didn't raise prices on everything. At least not hear in the states. However! I would like an explanation as to why they are charging $75 for a Land Raider! Nothing they make is worth that. I refuse to pay $75 for a model, and another 20 or so on paint. When in reality it's only 10 or so dollars worth of plastic and I doubt it cost $65 in man/machine power to produce it. Aside from that, it does not really bother me. Realistically most people will only drop the money for one terminator squad ever. That's why I want to buy as much as I can this year before they raise prices again next June.

Jaeger wulf wrote:

tallerguy wrote:Easing the pain for our Australian and New Zealand cousins. Buy at UK RRP. Check my sig.

But you don't have a sig ATM...

Sorry fixed now. It fell off for a bit

Rick_1138 wrote:
*slurp! Glug* Mmmmm...mmmm that koolaid tastes great!

As the kiddies say, "there, I fixed it for you!"

I will address two of your points though.
I didn't mention any of the games you cited. My example was soley based on the price of very comparable miniatures. Nice sidestep on that one. But now that you mention it, Flames of War is a very good example of a comparable company. FoW has been around for over ten years now and although they can't boast GW's huge market they do have a massive footprint in the gaming world. (at least here in the US) They are big enough now that they feel confident enough to emulate some of GW's less charming tactics: change for the sake of change, game effectiveness based pricing, over-priced hardback rules, strong arming retailers, refering to a "FoW hobby", etc. You might have heard that just this last week they pulled another GW type move and banned non Battlefront miniatures from their events, actually going so far as to state that their customers "don't enjoy their games as much when they see other company's miniatures on the table". So quit trying to play that "GW is expensive because they are in a league all their own" card.

and...

GW is also the only tabletop game that plays on as large a scale in terms of numbers of models, where most other companies work as smaller skirmish games.

You either have no exposure to the world of real wargaming (ie historical games) or you are just making crap up with that statement. Which is it?

Ok, folks, I'm said my peace, countered the tiresome fallacies spread by the apologists, and amused myself enough on this thread. This is my last post on this particular thread. The fanboys may have the last word now. I'm nice that way!

TR

Trench-Raider wrote:

Rick_1138 wrote:
*slurp! Glug* Mmmmm...mmmm that koolaid tastes great!

As the kiddies say, "there, I fixed it for you!"

What you did there...i saw it

Trench-Raider wrote:

I will address two of your points though.
I didn't mention any of the games you cited. My example was soley based on the price of very comparable miniatures. Nice sidestep on that one. But now that you mention it, Flames of War is a very good example of a comparable company. FoW has been around for over ten years now and although they can't boast GW's huge market they do have a massive footprint in the gaming world. (at least here in the US) They are big enough now that they feel confident enough to emulate some of GW's less charming tactics: change for the sake of change, game effectiveness based pricing, over-priced hardback rules, strong arming retailers, refering to a "FoW hobby", etc. You might have heard that just this last week they pulled another GW type move and banned non Battlefront miniatures from their events, actually going so far as to state that their customers "don't enjoy their games as much when they see other company's miniatures on the table". So quit trying to play that "GW is expensive because they are in a league all their own" card.

and...

GW is also the only tabletop game that plays on as large a scale in terms of numbers of models, where most other companies work as smaller skirmish games.

I didnt 'side-step' your comment, i was simply showing its not all "GW costs a fortune, everyone else costs pennies in comparison" that was all, but carry on being facetious if you want.

Trench-Raider wrote:
You either have no exposure to the world of real wargaming (ie historical games) or you are just making crap up with that statement. Which is it?

Ok, folks, I'm said my peace, countered the tiresome fallacies spread by the apologists, and amused myself enough on this thread. This is my last post on this particular thread. The fanboys may have the last word now. I'm nice that way!

TR

I actually was making mention of games in the fantasy and sci-fi settings, historical is a different kettle of fish, but if you want to bring that one in, then the fact you need a lot of minatures to play those games (a friend runs a league locally) the tables are groaning with metal figures, with the boxes being about £15-£20 each, so its not exactly pennies, and from my experience its largely an older demographic that plays historical, though in the US this may be different.

I do like though that i am "Teh Fanboy" because i happen to state that GW isnt the evil empire, they are simply a business, doing 4 years of an Honours degree in management and business tends to show you why what GW is doing, and why other games companies are starting to do the same as they get bigger (FoW and PP) is because it makes them lots of money.

Oh and FoW (Battlefront Mini's) actually u-turned on that decision about not allowing models that are not their own after fan outrage, now its a minimum of 40% must be their models, and since its what keeps them in business, thats not an unfair thing to ask, its the same reason GW is so draconian about its IP controls.

Oh and what is this Kool Aid you speak of, we dont have such things in the UK, we prefer reasoned debate but obviously you prefer a nice tasty beverage and humming real loud.

(Should state its all a bit of banter, we are all friends surely )

Trench-Raider wrote:What makes me chuckle is that every time this subject comes up, some GW apologists pops in with the "it's a luxury product, suck it up!" argument. It's like clockwork. The bottom line is that GW's prices ARE out of line with both the overall rate of inflation and with comparable products in the wargame industry. Here is a great example. Check this out: a box of 30 Perry Miniatures multi-piece plastic Sudan Campaign figures. http://www.perry-miniatures.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_62&products_id=2593
I just bought a couple of these for my own Colonial Wars games and they are very nice....top notch in fact. The sitcker price on these is 18 British Pounds, or about 28$US at today's exchange rate. 30 very nice plastic figures for considerably less than what 10 similar GW figures cost. Before someone tries to make the lame "better quality" argument keep in mind that these are Perry miniatures. For the kiddies out there who have not been around the block, the Perry twins are indisputably some of the best miniatures sculptors in the business. They were responsible for some of GW's best ranges. (before they quit to concentrate on Foundry and eventually break off and found their own company that is..) So that argument does not hold water and the comparison is valid.

The Perry's definitely make some great minis in plastic and metal. I had many of their british naval regiment units from the Sudan line before I eventually sold off my colonial figs because of a lack of other local players interested in the period. The only real difference is that the Perry minis, and other plastic 28mm figs use less plastic because they are true 28mm. That said, though, they are highly detailed and look fantastic. The Perry's aren't only other company out there making quality plastics either. I continue to be amazed by the Perry's output, especially given that one of the brothers blew off his hand while doing Civil War re-enacting with a cannon. Hasn't stopped his sculpting talent in the least. That is pretty darn impressive.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rick_1138 wrote:And what comparible products are these, you mean the likes of flames of war, Privateer Press, perry miniatures etc, these are all niche products, when compared with GW's business model, sales wise, they cant afford to charge much higher prices as if people stopped buying their products they would suffer a real risk of struggling as a business, GW's benefit is that they can make revenue from other areas such as books, IP licence use and the old chestnut of "The Brand", that is GW's big trump card, its the name everyone knows, if you ask most people, they will have heard of GW, mention Privateer Press, Malifaux, etc most wont have a clue who they are (these are non gaming people etc.)

GW is also the only tabletop game that plays on as large a scale in terms of numbers of models, where most other companies work as smaller skirmish games.

By all means buy the models you want, but i always find it odd that people think that GW are going to price themselves out of the market when business history has proven that a lot of people are quite price insensetive, unless there is a HUGE sudden increase, which most businesses wont do, its not like you dont see plenty of new kids in GW whenever i am in and they all have plenty of armies, i would say there are as many kids playing now as there were when i started playing in 1992.

It is funny, but your reasons for why GW is better off and all their other lines is actually the reason why they need to charge more for their products. The supposed "niche" sellers you describe don't charge as much be cause they don't *have* to charge as much. It costs a lot more to have your own chain of stores, maintain 3 completely separate game product lines, produce novels and other books and so on. Also who cares if non-gamers only know the name of Games Workshop, but not smaller companies. It is not different than non-gamers knowing about D&D and not much else either. The other companies don't need "The Brand" they are succeeding by putting out good rules and decent minis to support them. You don't need to skate on your name when you put out decent products. A lot of those smaller companies also can respond more directly to customer wants and needs that a large publically traded company cannot or will not do.

Not all of the competitor games are "skirmish" games. Flames of War games can be quite large and the game scales a lot better for it as well. We've regularly played FoW multiplayer games with 5-6000 points a size and finished them in an afternoon while a similarly sized 40k game could take all day and into the next. 40k is a skirmish game that tries to pretend that it isn't. Historical gaming in numerous scales has been around a lot longer than 40k has been around and will still be around when 40k finally is gone from the market. Yet, despite that longevity, most historical minis are pretty darn cheap to purchase with some notable exceptions. Also there are numerous manufacturers available for the most popular periods out there so you never stuck spending more than you want to except for lines of some rarer conflicts that aren't as popular.

As for GW's market, they haven't priced themselves out, but they will reach the threshold eventually. There will come a point where even the parents who buy their kids whatever they want will start freaking out when they see the prices. In my area this is already happening. GW games are pretty low priority. Especially with older players who are getting tired of the price increases just because and the stupid power escalation that means that codex lists printed at the beginning of a new rules edition are underpowered by the end of the edition. It is a rare day indeed if *any* GW game gets played in my FLGS. I make plenty of money and still buy GW minis, but I figure one more price increase and I will probably stop giving them my money. It is getting to the point where even I am wondering why I continue to spend money on their products and I've been doing this for a long time indeed. The shift to finecast is one of the last straws for me. Mind you I don't have any issues with finecast itself, but I have a problem with the fact that my usual online ordering sources are not allowed to stock finecast, so more of my specialized purchases now have to be at full price which decreases what I can get for my money. Yes people have been talking about GW going down for a long time, but I am finally starting to see the start of that really happening. Every price increase makes it harder for me to convince new friends to play. They like the models. They think the concept is great, but they look at the prices and walk away every time now.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Trench-Raider wrote:I will address two of your points though.
I didn't mention any of the games you cited. My example was soley based on the price of very comparable miniatures. Nice sidestep on that one. But now that you mention it, Flames of War is a very good example of a comparable company. FoW has been around for over ten years now and although they can't boast GW's huge market they do have a massive footprint in the gaming world. (at least here in the US) They are big enough now that they feel confident enough to emulate some of GW's less charming tactics: change for the sake of change, game effectiveness based pricing, over-priced hardback rules, strong arming retailers, refering to a "FoW hobby", etc. You might have heard that just this last week they pulled another GW type move and banned non Battlefront miniatures from their events, actually going so far as to state that their customers "don't enjoy their games as much when they see other company's miniatures on the table". So quit trying to play that "GW is expensive because they are in a league all their own" card.

On an interesting note the outcry from the Battlefront player community was so loud and negative about this move that Battlefront has backed off of its "You must use our minis in our events" move and are looking at alternatives, like an extra award category to reward those players who do play with full battlefront mini armies instead. That is most definitely not something GW will do. Also I am unsure about the change for change's sake comment. They just released version 3 of the rules and the rules were an improvement over V2 and not just a change. The changes were around areas of the rules that had been questioned and in contention by the players for some time. So a lot of the changes were because of player feedback and not just because they wanted to change them. Some unit changes were specifically because players were abusing certain units and using them in ways that was completely historically inaccurate (like using Brumbars as tank hunters because the rules made them very good at it despite the fact that they were no designed or really effective in that role historically. People were calling them the poor man's tigers because they were cheaper and aside from the lack of a turrey almost as effective when pointed at the enemy. Also they didn't muck with things that worked well either. Responding to their player base is a big area where Battlefront is different than GW, though. When the early war books came out there was a lot of complaints about how a certain force seemed to have an advantage over others and when that force showed up A LOT in the tournement circuir for early war and was quite successful, Battlefront listened to the complaints and made changes. They also provided full color sticker overlays for free to book owners to stick into their books to cover up the replaced rules and points costs with new information. That was pretty classy. If GW ever responds to customer complaints they would never offer up something as useful as those free sticker updates.

I will agree that some 15mm WWII minis are really suck compared to Battlefronts minis, but plenty of them look just as good, if not better, on the table when painted up. Nature of the beast of course when dealing with many different mini manufacturers. Battlefront did get majorly slapped by its customer base for their attempt to make their events "BF minis only, though" and they responded to it instead of just saying "Too bad. Don't like it then don't play."

Skriker

Trench-Raider wrote:This is my last post on this particular thread. The fanboys may have the last word now. I'm nice that way!

Thank god, we can now finally have a reasonable conversation without having someone doing nothing more than calling us all liars to our face over and over.

If the posts you've posted here is the highest quality you can achieve. Be nice in the future and don't bother posting at all.

Rick_1138 wrote:People dont buy 20 space marines when all they want is 10, but they now get 20 for the price of 10.

People just want to buy the army they want to play with, they are not going to get a 3000 point force just because it costs the same as a 1500 point force would if GW halved their prices etc.

This is actually an important point. If anything, GW is learning from the emerging trend of microtransactions. Selling fewer miniatures at lower prices (regardless of the value), allows for a more efficient distribution of product, as people get exactly what they want, when they want it.

I feel like the past two decades have been one of everybody bundling together into "value" products, while we're now living in an era of that system falling apart. Cable companies, for example, are on the verge of splitting up their multi-hundred-channel television bundles into an a la carte system. Heck, even dominoes no longer does its 5-5-5 deal anymore, apparently because it's better for everybody if customers buy the correct amount of pizza for them, rather than being shoehorned into a value deal.

RatBot wrote:I know I would buy something in the neighborhood of 60 or 70 models (or however many models are in an average 2000pt 40K army) instead of the 0 models I have bought in the past two years, and the 0 GW models I intend to buy in the future. It'd also be much easier to attract new blood if the cost of entry was dramatically lowered.

Yes, but talk is cheap. People are quick to say what they would do in perfect circumstances, but are slow to practice what they preach in the real world.

For example here, things on eBay are easily 50% cheaper than things straight from GW. Were your statement actual, rather than theoretical, it would imply that you've made a fair number of ebay purchases in the past two years. Have you? Actually? Or is this just opining and wishing.

GW can't afford to price based on what people want, it can only afford to price based on what people actually pay.

RatBot wrote:I have to imagine they'll hit a point of diminishing returns where even diehard fans might start reconsidering the value for money they're getting, but obviously they haven't hit that point yet.

And this is what's really important. Despite all of these price hikes, it has always been the best decision for GW's financial health to raise prices more. The idea of "peak pricing" hovering over our heads here is like the idea of "peak oil" - the boogeyman that's always hiding just around the corner, and boy are we all going to see it when it rears its ugly head, which will be any minute now, just like the second coming of christ, I promise, it's right here, just you wait.

The fact is that GW will know when it hits any mythical ceiling, as its profits will go down. As it is, they're not, so they haven't.

RatBot wrote:If they want substantial long-term growth...

Then they have to have the ability to invest in their company in the short term. Future growth is created from present profits.

The other thing is Gw know their onions, and they know what sells, hen e the massive SM army imbalance over xenon races, and the Horus heresy being catered for with upcoming FW books n models, and the new 'LOTR" bubble of the hobbit they will have more cash to develop better things, such as the 6th ed rules, full colour, hard bound, and a lovely thing (if heavy) and the injection mold tech where assault on black reach gave us over £100 of models for £45 when originally released. With the next intro box probably going to. E about £70 from what I know is in it, we are looking at about £130 worth of models o buy them seperately. Surely these are great deals for players?

GW is free to set their prices at whatever they want, but at this point, $75 for a Land Raider is an unreasonable amount for me to pay. I expect more and more people are starting to feel the same, so we'll EVENTUALLY see GW react and either reduce prices or stagnate them. There's a fine line between having prices that are too high, and getting maximum profit from the customers you're realistically going to get anyway. It's like how tires provide the most traction at the point right before they lose it =)

Raising the prices to this level does give the less expensive competition a nice boost though.

Trench-Raider wrote:

I'm going to use US pricing here, so pardon me for that. The price for 30 RTB01 Marines circa 1990 was about 20$US. I recall payng 24$ at my local hobby shop in 1990, but that may be either my faulty memory or the local mark-up. But let's run with 20$. For the pendantic "that's annectotal! Prove it!" sort of poster, about three posts up there is a link to a scan of an ad for the TRB01 box showing it's cost at the time of release. Now flash forward to 2012. Now, for some odd reason my workplace firewall is blocking the GW site tonight, while it was not doing so yesterday. So I'll have to link to Amazon instead. Sorry about that.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CEM3EA/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1/186-6967057-7908015?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_r=0NXJTZV4AJW429YX7CFH&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_i=B000CEM3E0
The full price shown for the Space Marine Combat Squad box is 25$US, which if I'm not mistaken is the same as shown at the GW web store. Now to get the same number of Space Marine models as the RTB01 box provided, you will need to buy six of those Combat Squad boxes at a total cost of 150$US, not including any shipping, assuming you bought it through GW mail order. That is a whopping 750% (my previous estimate was actually too LOW as I was figuring the initial cost at my remembered price of 25$) increase rather than the mere 150% you state above.

That's just stupid. Combat Squads are far more expensive than tactical squads. You may as well compare the old Rogue Trader marines to the Armour Through the Ages pack.

Protip - if you're going to compare the price for two things...make sure they're the same