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CrashCanuck wrote:Everyone seems so gung ho about having double force org, I'm still good using the standard, even up to 2500 points. I personally view the double force org thing to be Optional, kinda like Allies and Fortifications, so it's something to be decided on with your opponent or decided by a TO when organizing it.

Well that's not the rules. They're optional like FA, HS, and Elites are optional.

Grey Templar wrote:

CrashCanuck wrote:Everyone seems so gung ho about having double force org, I'm still good using the standard, even up to 2500 points. I personally view the double force org thing to be Optional, kinda like Allies and Fortifications, so it's something to be decided on with your opponent or decided by a TO when organizing it.

Well that's not the rules. They're optional like FA, HS, and Elites are optional.

Yeah, its the official rules.double the foc and to have forts and allies. Which is why I will play at 1850 or less so I don't have to worry about the headache two focs will be.

imweasel wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
Space Wolves: you are allowed 1 heavy support per allied detachment. So at most you get 2 long fang squads as allies, but only after buying 2 Grey Hunter squads and 2 HQs. I'd like to know what the supposedly main army has in it.

How about...I dunno...space wolves? You know that at 2k points I get 2 FOC's right? I don't NEED allies. That gives me 6 heavy support choices. I can take 38 ml's, logan, a rp, 16 combi-plasma, 6 scoring units (and in 1 out of 6 missions, 12) and a couple of melta guns.

Grey Templar wrote:Valks and Vendettas are underpriced, being able to take more of them is not going to be any worse then it was before. Not a problem with double FoC.

It is the versatility with the extra FOC's that makes it good. I doubt if anyone would take less than 4 vet squads, which you have to take in two FOC's anyways.

Now you can break your squads up any way you want. And leman russ squadrons are going to be good. Couple with the fact you can take 6 heavy support choices in IG is going to be very, very good for IG.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheKbob wrote:Space Wolves... 30 Missiles at 12 different targets for 840 points in 2000 point lists.

Yeah, go eat a fat one with that sort of shenanigans. Won't be making friends!

I'd bring 6 Lone Wolves and laugh.

Necrons could bring 2 Doomscythes and 4 Annihlation Barges. Or 6 Annihlation Barges.

It's not a balancing effort except for maybe one army... Tyranids. Potentially Eldar. Most others got a serious buff. It is just a sales ploy. I love allies for fluff wise and it's a great way to slow-grow armies. A small amount is playable while you build a new force. I'm cool with that.

I didn't think this was about making friends. I thought it was about the reasoning behind the 1999+1 lists that seems to have gotten some very sensitive people's panties in a bunch.

Yes, those lists are scary, in 5th edition. Are we playing 5th? No. Everything has changed.

I dont see how a change from 5E to 6E changes how 2 FOCs are abusive vs normal?

Everyone on here has a different view on what is fun for them.

I personally will not be playing anyone who wants to double FOC. Why? I view it as broken and not fun. My gaming time is my own. I do with it what I want to do.

I see Tau, Nids and Eldar as needing the 2nd FOC to compete with most armies, everyone else it reeks of abuse.

CrashCanuck wrote:Everyone seems so gung ho about having double force org, I'm still good using the standard, even up to 2500 points. I personally view the double force org thing to be Optional, kinda like Allies and Fortifications, so it's something to be decided on with your opponent or decided by a TO when organizing it.

No, it's optional in that you can choose to only use a single FOC if you want. It's not optional in the sense that your opponent can veto it.

CrashCanuck wrote:Everyone seems so gung ho about having double force org, I'm still good using the standard, even up to 2500 points. I personally view the double force org thing to be Optional, kinda like Allies and Fortifications, so it's something to be decided on with your opponent or decided by a TO when organizing it.

Technically, if you insist on playing the rules as written, you can't veto allies, fortifications, or double charts at 2k plus.

EDIT: Also whenever I try to post this, the webpage says that my post is either in all-caps or has too many exclamation marks, yet I fail to see a single one.

RegalPhantom wrote:

CrashCanuck wrote:Everyone seems so gung ho about having double force org, I'm still good using the standard, even up to 2500 points. I personally view the double force org thing to be Optional, kinda like Allies and Fortifications, so it's something to be decided on with your opponent or decided by a TO when organizing it.

TECNICLY IF YOU INSSIST ON PLAYING THE RULES AS RITTEN YOU CANT VETO ALLYS FORTIFICATIONS OR DOUBLE CHARTS AT 2K PLUS!!!!

EDIT: ALSO WHENEVER I TRY TO POST THIS THE WEBPAEG SAYS THAT MY POST IS EITHER IN ALLCAPS OR HAS TO MANY EXLAIMATION MARKS YET I FAIL TOO SEE A SINGLE ONE!!!!

There's your problem, right there.

Seriously though, you should report the post so that a mod knows about the problem (and can tell an admin) or start a thread in nuts and bolts.

Kevlar wrote:The double force org is needed at 2000 for game balance. Not all armies are allowed stuff like vehicle squadrons, and find they run out of slots long before they run out of points to spend.

Which armies are these? I have yet to have a hard time filling out 2000 points for any army in 40k using a single FOC. Vehicle squadrons are not necessary to add up enough points in most lists to get to 2000 before filling the FOC. Heck with my armies I have a hard time filling up the FOC at 2000 points and wish I could spend more points...

Skriker

Since this has obviously turned from a simple question into a "X list is broken" one, I'll jump back in.

I do agree that it depends on what your idea of fun is, but I'm curious as to why people would rule out double FoC.. and I mean *automatically* ruling it out, regardless of the usage.

For example, at 2500pts I can *easily* create a simple list with four Troops choices and zero heavy support, that uses no demon princes. I can also bring Ahriman and an HQ sorcerer, and if I say "Oh look, I'm doubling up on the FoC", I can add a 3rd Sorcerer to the 2nd FoC detachment. I'll just write the list with 2 squads of Tsons in each detachment in order to get the 3rd sorcerer.

Hardly broken. Totally fluffy.

Would you refuse to play that? If not, your idea of double FoC might not be as hostile as some think. I'd say there's a lot of "It depends" that will be happening in 6th, and I for one and quite pleased with the rules. I won't play any quad Lords of Change lists in friendly games for example. Don't care if it's legal, don't care if he has fun using it.

Skriker wrote:

Kevlar wrote:The double force org is needed at 2000 for game balance. Not all armies are allowed stuff like vehicle squadrons, and find they run out of slots long before they run out of points to spend.

Which armies are these? I have yet to have a hard time filling out 2000 points for any army in 40k using a single FOC. Vehicle squadrons are not necessary to add up enough points in most lists to get to 2000 before filling the FOC. Heck with my armies I have a hard time filling up the FOC at 2000 points and wish I could spend more points...

Skriker

I understand skriker but take Eldar for example their troops are underwhelming. Their elite spots are extremely crowded double FOC helps them deploy a more competiitve army. Whereas my Deathwing is squeeking in at 2000 and need more points. not more FOC slots.

Anybody trying to write a beatface list will always find a way to make the cheesiest list around. Double force org v regular force org won't change that.

What the double force org does do, though, is allow for a more specialized army. At 2000 pts, I can now take 3 dakkajets, 10 deffkoptas, and 20 stormboyz with Zagstrukk for my flying circus with Wazdakka making bikers troops. I now have a really fun, really cool list. It is somewhat competitive now, but isn't gamebreakingly so.

The game has changed. At 2000 pts, you get a second force org. You always can take allies and you can always take fortifications. If you don't like these changes, play 5th edition or man up and get over it. They are part of the game now.

-cgmckenzie

Buttons wrote:
As I guard player I would be interested in seeing the absolute maximum point cost for an army we can get using one FoC, just to see. I mean it must be at least 10,000 when you include 6 platoons each with 5 infantry squads, 5 heavy weapon squads, and 2 special weapon squads, all with the most lascannons and plasma gun possible.

I make it out to around 17,000pts, from one FoC without using special characters

I don't really see that much of an issue with it. It opens up a lot more options for armies which may start to become stale at higher levels. Also at 2k on the mark, I doubt spamming heavy support heavily will prove to be a good idea. It may work in some of the missions, but it will open up weaknesses to others. The fortification thing irks me a little, but more in the way that I'm just seeing bastions everywhere at the moment; people are still checking it out I suppose and we'll eventually start to get a nice wave of themed terrain. At least hopefully, of course not officially just people converting or building their own for their specific force.

htj wrote:

RegalPhantom wrote:

CrashCanuck wrote:Everyone seems so gung ho about having double force org, I'm still good using the standard, even up to 2500 points. I personally view the double force org thing to be Optional, kinda like Allies and Fortifications, so it's something to be decided on with your opponent or decided by a TO when organizing it.

TECNICLY IF YOU INSSIST ON PLAYING THE RULES AS RITTEN YOU CANT VETO ALLYS FORTIFICATIONS OR DOUBLE CHARTS AT 2K PLUS!!!!

EDIT: ALSO WHENEVER I TRY TO POST THIS THE WEBPAEG SAYS THAT MY POST IS EITHER IN ALLCAPS OR HAS TO MANY EXLAIMATION MARKS YET I FAIL TOO SEE A SINGLE ONE!!!!

There's your problem, right there.

Seriously though, you should report the post so that a mod knows about the problem (and can tell an admin) or start a thread in nuts and bolts.

It's the title.

And the funny thing about the Fortifications is that you can have at most 2.

Are 2 Bastions really all that scary?


Now, 2 Fortresses of Redemption are scary. But thats 500 points of your opponents army that can't move or score and is stuck in his deployment zone that he will probably have another 500 points of his army sitting inside to man the weapons. Now does it sound all that scary?

Exactly, but the sky must fall after all.

The only part of it that annoyed me was how generic it seemed to have something like Necrons with Orks using some pristine bastion. Even then it's only extremely minor. To some armies I can see it being an issue, but to most they'll just have to make a slight adjustment to deal with it.

Yeah, thats the one thing thats annoying.

We need faction specific terrain GW!


Orks, Chaos, and Tau can use Imperial terrain all they want, it makes sense. But Nids and Eldar need something to call their own. And Tau, Chaos, and Orks need their own stuff too.

And Daemons with the skyshield.

The helipad so finely crafted daemonic essences from the immaterium can lock onto its position and phase into real space flawlessly. Should go on the back of the box for it.

I don't see what all the fuss is about.

Do all of you really have that many TFGs at your FLGS?

I'm excited about 2 FOC for one reason.... actually 3.

1) I can now take enough Looted Wagons for my army. Gretching and Lootas finally have a ride.

2) I can add another HQ or two be it a Big Mek or whatever, it offers me a chance to make cool character convertions.

3) I can actually use all my stupid Deffkopta models, plus buggies and Dakkajetz instead of having to shelf my very expencive flyers or convertions.

marv335 wrote:

Buttons wrote:
As I guard player I would be interested in seeing the absolute maximum point cost for an army we can get using one FoC, just to see. I mean it must be at least 10,000 when you include 6 platoons each with 5 infantry squads, 5 heavy weapon squads, and 2 special weapon squads, all with the most lascannons and plasma gun possible.

I make it out to around 17,000pts, from one FoC without using special characters

With full upgrades, full platoons, full squads, Dedicated Transports and non-foc units (priest and techpriest) you can max out (literally absolute max points) at 22464 points in one FOC, no special characters. Of course equivalent points of any army will likely trounce that handily on the table.

:3 I love guard.


More on topic:
Personally I don't see how 1 FOC is limiting at 2000 points. I won't be playing with double FOCs most of the time simply because it just leaves too much opportunity for spamming units or making stupid cheesy lists.

Luckily pretty much everyone I play with agrees that 1999+1 is best. Hooray!

What people seem to not be getting is that with the double force org, you still only have 2k points to spend with a 2 HQ/4 troop minimum.

Sure, you might have somebody max out one particular unit, but there is a counterside to it. I bring 6 dakkajets, 18 killa kans, and 2 KFF's. That leaves me enough points for 5 minimum units of grots. You can counter with LRBT, vendettas, and penal legions in grosser numbers than I can. Or dark lances. Or monstrous creatures. Or orks of your own. I can have a bonkers list, but you can, too. Stop complaining and enjoy it.

I really want to do this list now, though.

-cgmckenzie

Yeah, lets take a look at some armies that would supposedly be in major cheese territory with 2 FoCs.


Space Wolves: 2 Rune Priests and 4 squads of Grey Hunters. Thats almost half your points.

Grey Knights: So its either Draigo, Librarian, and 4 squads of Paladins for Dragiowing. Or its Crowe, Libby, and 4 squads of Purifiers. Or Grandmaster, Libby, and 4 squads of Terminators. Draigowing = 1610 points minimum(Paladins are in 5 man squads and Lvl3 with Stave on Libby), Purifiers =1345(10 man squads, libby has stuff), and basic terminators and generic HQ is 1290(4 5 man terminator squads)

Did I mention these numbers don't include any upgrades on the troops choices? Just some basic equipment on the Librarians and Grandmasters.

How is this broken again?

Am I the only one who has no trouble with any of my armies filling out 2k in one FOC? Sure, it's mostly filled out by that point, but I've never gone "Well, now almost all of my slots are filled up, and I've still got points left, damn." Heck, I usually only fill out one selection, regardless of army (usually Heavy Support, but Orks tend to do Elites as well). Are there really so many armies that are so low on choices that the second FOC is needed to feasibly run 2k? Because I've been doing it fine for years now. Plus, there's now even less chance to run into the FOC limit with allies and fortifications adding in more slots to toss points into.

Personally...I'm just not a fan of the double FOC. As I said, I've never once had issues running 2k points with a single FOC. There's just too much potential for abuse with the double chart. Sure, there's potential for abuse in every list now, but doubling it just opens it up even more. I agree that it would've been more balanced to simply go plus one for every slot above 2k, flat-out adding a second FOC is just screaming to be abused.

Its not that you've filled your first FoC, its that some slots on your FoC are filled.

I run out of FA choices at 1000(because I'm taking Land Speeders), so I will unlock the second FoC when I can so I can run more Landspeeders.


It allows theme armies to be themed. It would be against the theme to take Dreadnoughts or Terminators in a White Scars bike army, but in 5th they would be forced to take something like that eventually because the FoC had been filled in the themed areas.

So it's not about filling the FOC. It's about the fact certain FOC slots are full (Despite the fact that others are, invariably, nearly or completely empty). The arguement for 2 FOC's seems to be, roughly, that it allows you to bring enough of certain things for certain armies, which is balanced by available points for other things (such as troops). Or that it allows you to do theme armies.

So... why have a FOC at all? It's not hard to make a 2000 point army within the current FOC, that's not the arguement. It's hard to make a 'comeptitive' (i.e. powerful) army with certain codecies with only 3 Elite or FA slots.
If the 'balance' all comes from the fact that these fancy extra slots will eat all your points, then the FOC is entirely unnecessary, at any points value.

It seems a flawed point, is all I'm saying.

AlexCage wrote:So it's not about filling the FOC. It's about the fact certain FOC slots are full (Despite the fact that others are, invariably, nearly or completely empty). The arguement for 2 FOC's seems to be, roughly, that it allows you to bring enough of certain things for certain armies, which is balanced by available points for other things (such as troops). Or that it allows you to do theme armies.

So... why have a FOC at all? It's not hard to make a 2000 point army within the current FOC, that's not the arguement. It's hard to make a 'comeptitive' (i.e. powerful) army with certain codecies with only 3 Elite or FA slots.
If the 'balance' all comes from the fact that these fancy extra slots will eat all your points, then the FOC is entirely unnecessary, at any points value.

It seems a flawed point, is all I'm saying.

You sir, earned an exalt. Well said.

Grey Templar wrote:Yeah, lets take a look at some armies that would supposedly be in major cheese territory with 2 FoCs.


Space Wolves: 2 Rune Priests and 4 squads of Grey Hunters. Thats almost half your points.

2 Rune Priest and 4 full sized squads of Grey Hunters is 800 points, which is not "almost half". You could easily fit another GH squad in their and give them all two meltaguns each for 1000 points total, with the 6 ML long fangs costing 840, with enough points for an Aegis Defense Line and/or a wolf guard pack. Of course, it's more likely that min size squads will be taken (like they are now) to free up more points. nothing in the detachment has to be full sized

Grey Knights: So its either Draigo, Librarian, and 4 squads of Paladins for Dragiowing. Or its Crowe, Libby, and 4 squads of Purifiers. Or Grandmaster, Libby, and 4 squads of Terminators. Draigowing = 1610 points minimum(Paladins are in 5 man squads and Lvl3 with Stave on Libby), Purifiers =1345(10 man squads, libby has stuff), and basic terminators and generic HQ is 1290(4 5 man terminator squads)

Did I mention these numbers don't include any upgrades on the troops choices? Just some basic equipment on the Librarians and Grandmasters.

You're acting like the troop choices are holding the army back. They're not. There's also the fact that your minimums are complete gak. The min for a two detachment Draigowing is more like 645 with 4 single paladins and without the stave and the lv 3 (because that's 85 extra points for wargear that no one ever takes,

How is this broken again?

It broken because it supports awful game design and removes a restriction that people are meant to work with, rather than being able to put down 6 of whatever-they-want. it just doesn't look that way because you're purposely using bad examples

So... why have a FOC at all? It's not hard to make a 2000 point army within the current FOC, that's not the arguement. It's hard to make a 'comeptitive' (i.e. powerful) army with certain codecies with only 3 Elite or FA slots.

True enough. If you're playing themed armies with friends, then a Force Org really isn't necessary. This isn't really a new concept, of course. Apocalypse has been out for several years now, and it doesn't use Force Org, or even restrict you to one codex. It's just understood that you're playing for the spectacle and assumed that you and your opponent will pick mutually-agreeable lists.

The issue with double force orgs really only comes up if you try to play competitively.

If there are choices out there which are cheaper than they should be (Grey Hunters, Long Fangs, Vendettas, Psyfleman Dreads, GK henchmen, for some widely-accepted examples), then double force org allows you to take even more of the things which are underpriced, thus exacerbating the issue/leveraging their efficiency advantage even further.

If you think that no units in 40k are underpointed, then you wouldn't see double force org as broken. If on the other hand you do think that certain units are underpriced, then the conclusion that double force org makes that problem worse is almost inescapable.

htj wrote:Seriously though, you should report the post so that a mod knows about the problem (and can tell an admin) or start a thread in nuts and bolts.

The warning also triggers if the subject line of your message has no capital letters/is all numbers. Since the thread title was (I just edited it) all numbers, it triggered the warning on every post, because no one changed the subject line of their posts to add any words.

Luke_Prowler wrote:

Grey Knights: So its either Draigo, Librarian, and 4 squads of Paladins for Dragiowing. Or its Crowe, Libby, and 4 squads of Purifiers. Or Grandmaster, Libby, and 4 squads of Terminators. Draigowing = 1610 points minimum(Paladins are in 5 man squads and Lvl3 with Stave on Libby), Purifiers =1345(10 man squads, libby has stuff), and basic terminators and generic HQ is 1290(4 5 man terminator squads)

Did I mention these numbers don't include any upgrades on the troops choices? Just some basic equipment on the Librarians and Grandmasters.

You're acting like the troop choices are holding the army back. They're not. There's also the fact that your minimums are complete gak. The min for a two detachment Draigowing is more like 645 with 4 single paladins and without the stave and the lv 3 (because that's 85 extra points for wargear that no one ever takes,

What?

Warding Staves get taken all the time on Librarians and the Lvl3 upgrade is just silly to leave at home.

And who the hell is going to run single paladins? The point of paladins is a squad of 2 wound terminators. Taking only one defeats the purpose. He can't even take a Psycannon.

True, the Troops choices are good but thats hardly a point against double FoCs.

Grey Templar wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:

Grey Knights: So its either Draigo, Librarian, and 4 squads of Paladins for Dragiowing. Or its Crowe, Libby, and 4 squads of Purifiers. Or Grandmaster, Libby, and 4 squads of Terminators. Draigowing = 1610 points minimum(Paladins are in 5 man squads and Lvl3 with Stave on Libby), Purifiers =1345(10 man squads, libby has stuff), and basic terminators and generic HQ is 1290(4 5 man terminator squads)

Did I mention these numbers don't include any upgrades on the troops choices? Just some basic equipment on the Librarians and Grandmasters.

You're acting like the troop choices are holding the army back. They're not. There's also the fact that your minimums are complete gak. The min for a two detachment Draigowing is more like 645 with 4 single paladins and without the stave and the lv 3 (because that's 85 extra points for wargear that no one ever takes,

What?

Warding Staves get taken all the time on Librarians and the Lvl3 upgrade is just silly to leave at home.

And who the hell is going to run single paladins? The point of paladins is a squad of 2 wound terminators. Taking only one defeats the purpose. He can't even take a Psycannon.

True, the Troops choices are good but thats hardly a point against double FoCs.

If the stave and Lv3 is taken all the time, then I've never seen it

The point of the single paladin squads example is not if people would, but that they can do that if they want to. The mandatory two HQs and four troops are not a real restriction if the player doesn't want them to be.

Luke_Prowler wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:

Grey Knights: So its either Draigo, Librarian, and 4 squads of Paladins for Dragiowing. Or its Crowe, Libby, and 4 squads of Purifiers. Or Grandmaster, Libby, and 4 squads of Terminators. Draigowing = 1610 points minimum(Paladins are in 5 man squads and Lvl3 with Stave on Libby), Purifiers =1345(10 man squads, libby has stuff), and basic terminators and generic HQ is 1290(4 5 man terminator squads)

Did I mention these numbers don't include any upgrades on the troops choices? Just some basic equipment on the Librarians and Grandmasters.

You're acting like the troop choices are holding the army back. They're not. There's also the fact that your minimums are complete gak. The min for a two detachment Draigowing is more like 645 with 4 single paladins and without the stave and the lv 3 (because that's 85 extra points for wargear that no one ever takes,

What?

Warding Staves get taken all the time on Librarians and the Lvl3 upgrade is just silly to leave at home.

And who the hell is going to run single paladins? The point of paladins is a squad of 2 wound terminators. Taking only one defeats the purpose. He can't even take a Psycannon.

True, the Troops choices are good but thats hardly a point against double FoCs.

If the stave and Lv3 is taken all the time, then I've never seen it

The point of the single paladin squads example is not if people would, but that they can do that if they want to. The mandatory two HQs and four troops are not a real restriction if the player doesn't want them to be.

But we deal with realistic situations. Realistically, you arn't going to take minimum Paladin squads and bare bones HQs.

Your experience on Libby equipment is dependent on your local Meta. Your GK players must like keeping their HQs cheap. Fair enough.



The point I was getting at is that 2 FoCs is hardly the big deal it might seem. The 2 HQ and 4 Troops minimum means that in order to spam, you need to buy 6 units. Units that can eat up alot of points.

You need scoring units now more then ever, 5 out of 6 missions are objective based, and you arn't going to just let them sit around and score. They need to get upgrades of some kind and contribute to the battle.



Regardless, people need to accept the fact that there are now 2 FoCs avaliable at 2k, as well as Allies and Fortifications. Rules change. Either play 6th, or don't. You shouldn't cherry pick what rules you do and don't like just because you don't like parts of it. The rule set is designed to work together, once you start changing it you arn't playing Warhammer anymore. You're playing Myway'sbetterhammer. Of course you're free to do that, but don't whine about how you've been forced to change stuff on the internet.