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salix_fatuus wrote:Using only the normal FoC an IG player can reach around 21359p (this is without allies and fortifications).

So?

Thats not the point. The point is that armies have access to more slots then they normally would have otherwise. It would be silly for a Drop Troop regiment to have to get a bunch of LRBTs just to make their points instead of being fluffy and taking Valks. Likewise it would be silly for a Armored Regiment to have to take some Vendettas instead of LRBTs just because they ran out of HS slots.

sfshilo wrote:I dont understand this nonsense at all. Why is the community SOOOO quick to kill off a rule? 1999+1???? Its nonsense! Just play as the damn rules are written!

Do you agree that the Annihilation Barge is underpriced at 90pts?

In most Necron armies, this isn't too big a deal, because the most the player can take is three of them, and that's if they don't want any spyders. With double force org, the player can take six ABs for 540 and still have 1460pts for the rest of their army. Or 360 for four ABs AND still take two units of spyders.

The limits the normal force org puts on spamming the best units in the game are functionally removed if you double that force org.

Yes, but most tournaments are under 2k anyway and you can always play smaller games.

If you don't like double FoC, play small games.

Grey Templar wrote:

salix_fatuus wrote:Using only the normal FoC an IG player can reach around 21359p (this is without allies and fortifications).

So?

Thats not the point. The point is that armies have access to more slots then they normally would have otherwise. It would be silly for a Drop Troop regiment to have to get a bunch of LRBTs just to make their points instead of being fluffy and taking Valks. Likewise it would be silly for a Armored Regiment to have to take some Vendettas instead of LRBTs just because they ran out of HS slots.

I was just saying. No real point intended only the fact that IG can if they want (and you have an insane amount of money) field up to about 21k in points.

Yeah, and BAs can have upwards of 25K in one FoC with Deathcompany. Chaos can have infinite points thanks to summoned daemons.

Saying "if you don't like it, don't play it" is a facile argument.

The question should be whether 2000 dual-FoC is good for game balance and I don't believe the answer is "yes."

Some need more slots for FoC; as I stated previously, Eldar and Nids need big help there. But that help should come in re-working their codices, make Striking Scorpions or Fire Dragons troops and make them high-priced or something, don't just apply a universal bandage.

Mannahnin wrote:

sfshilo wrote:I dont understand this nonsense at all. Why is the community SOOOO quick to kill off a rule? 1999+1???? Its nonsense! Just play as the damn rules are written!

Do you agree that the Annihilation Barge is underpriced at 90pts?

In most Necron armies, this isn't too big a deal, because the most the player can take is three of them, and that's if they don't want any spyders. With double force org, the player can take six ABs for 540 and still have 1460pts for the rest of their army. Or 360 for four ABs AND still take two units of spyders.

The limits the normal force org puts on spamming the best units in the game are functionally removed if you double that force org.

I don't know why everyone's planning these "Maxed out vehicle lists" Several armies have plenty of ways to deal with maxed out FoC with vehicles like crons.

Sternguard bombs for example (4-6 combi melta podded and squadded, only should take about three to deal with them each), than you got wolf scouts, Daemons who don't even care, orks would have either ton of numbers, cover saves, kanwalls, Dark eldar will just last and fire a ton of dark lances...

The problem with these "Panicked" FoC lists is assuming that everything stays the same when you double points, had a recent game where someone took nothing but GH and Longfangs vs my CSM, were transports popped? Sure, but than plasma cannons and plague marines got up close enough to begin to do damage, same guy ended up fighting a nid list and couldn't end up dealing with the flyrants and tyrannofex's 2+ saves, and than of course with the limited number of cover he was also at ease for a podded Doom of malan.

The thing about the double FoC is that if you make a spam list, you better make sure that list really is able to deal with all corners! There's plenty that can upset the balance should your list not be tweaked perfectly.

n0t_u wrote:And Daemons with the skyshield.

The helipad so finely crafted daemonic essences from the immaterium can lock onto its position and phase into real space flawlessly. Should go on the back of the box for it.

Hahahahahahaha! Awesome!

SKYSHIELD LANDING PAD! New and Improved! Now with Daemonic Essence!



Skriker

I think somewhere in the painting and modelling subforum there is some guy who made a demonic skyshield landing pad.

so if it's 1999+1, so 1999 and I just happen to go 1 over, then I'm at 2000 points and 2 FOCs are unlocked, so I just happen to take a 2nd FOC

UMGuy wrote:I agree, 2 FOCs at 2k is now a standard. I think another trend that is starting is people refusing to play with those who use allies...a rule in the rulebook. Super irritating. It is the new rules and it does not really matter if you disagree with them or not, maybe make it a house rule if you must.

Some of us still care for fluff instead of WAAC - what allies basically is with very few exceptions, e.g. CSM and Demons. Same goes for Double FOC. Thinking most people will use it to create a more fitting army? We'll more likely see it being used to get more cheese in.

why not just limit any choice outside of troops to 0-3 and troops to 0-6.

My stance is "Don't fix what is not broken".

Playing at 2k with 1 FoC seemed to having worked quite well in 5th and I don't see 2 FoC doing any good to the game at all.

Just image the new pre-6th Necrons with 4 CCBs. Fun?

Sigvatr wrote:

UMGuy wrote:I agree, 2 FOCs at 2k is now a standard. I think another trend that is starting is people refusing to play with those who use allies...a rule in the rulebook. Super irritating. It is the new rules and it does not really matter if you disagree with them or not, maybe make it a house rule if you must.

Some of us still care for fluff instead of WAAC - what allies basically is with very few exceptions, e.g. CSM and Demons. Same goes for Double FOC. Thinking most people will use it to create a more fitting army? We'll more likely see it being used to get more cheese in.

And this is why we can never have nice things.

2 FOCs can be used to help make a fluffy army. Of this, I do not doubt.

2 FOCs will be used to spam cheap uber effective HS/Elite slots. Of this, I guarantee.

Yeah, so why isn't everyone happy?

The fluffy bunnies can make their fluffy lists and the power gamers can make their power lists. Yay for everybody

The problem with doubling the FOC is that it is an unfair advantage for armies that can manipulate the scoring rules. In theory it wouldn't matter if you spammed the HS or Elite spot because that would nessesitate tradeoffs in scoring units which in turn would lead to tactical disadvatages, but many codexes have Speacial rules that alow them to shift scoring from the troop slot or move elites into troops. Imagine a kantor SM armie with minmum 6 scoring sterngaurd squads.

Jayden63 wrote:2 FOCs can be used to help make a fluffy army. Of this, I do not doubt.

2 FOCs will be used to spam cheap uber effective HS/Elite slots. Of this, I guarantee.

But, people who abuse the FOC to make a powerful army already do that. So, what's the difference?

All it does is change the dynamic, and as a player you need to be aware of it when you agree to a 2,000 point game.

As a Grey Knight player, I've always wanted to include an Inquisitor and his band of loyal (or coerced) henchmen in my army, but have been loath to leave either my Grandmaster or Librarian at home to do so. Now, at 2,000 points I can basically include an extra Inquisitor since at that points level, I'm probably running four troops choices anyway. I think it's great.

And so what if someone spams 30 long fangs (or whatever). You still get twice the FOC to throw back at them...

Kaldor wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:
And so what if someone spams 30 long fangs (or whatever). You still get twice the FOC to throw back at them...

But not all things cost equally. 30 missile launcher long fangs is 840 points, leaving you 1160 to spend on other stuff.

You tell me what else can dump out 30 BS4 missile launcher shots a turn for 840 points? The closest I can come to is 4 full units of Tank busta boys and that costs 900 points and the missiles have half range and don't have blast templates.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
When something is considered broken because of its cost, that problem only gets magnified when you can take it without limits.

The longfang issue is one that is there with or without the double force org. To say we can't do something because it makes the space wolves broken is foolish; they are already broken.

The fact of the matter is that 2x force org is in the rules when playing more than 1999 pts. If you don't want to deal with a second force org, play under that or go back to 5th.

The game has changed. Fortifications, allies, and double force orgs are all part of the game in the BGB so are fair game on the table top. Disallowing one or another because you don't like it means you are no longer playing 40k 6th ed.

-cgmckenzie

cgmckenzie wrote:The longfang issue is one that is there with or without the double force org. To say we can't do something because it makes the space wolves broken is foolish; they are already broken.

Of course, cause if it's broken, there is no harm in breaking it even further.

The fact of the matter is that 2x force org is in the rules when playing more than 1999 pts. If you don't want to deal with a second force org, play under that or go back to 5th.

The game has changed. Fortifications, allies, and double force orgs are all part of the game in the BGB so are fair game on the table top. Disallowing one or another because you don't like it means you are no longer playing 40k 6th ed.

-cgmckenzie

Except doubling foc did nothing for the game except unbalance it further? Which is what tourney organizers are trying to deal with so people will actually show up to play at tourneys? This thread isnt about casual play...

I never said it was about casual play, I said that it is part of the game.

This isn't something that is open for interpretation, it is cut and dry in the rules:I take 2000+ points, I can take a second primary detachment. It isn't an optional thing or specific missions(see some of the later pages about writing scenarios) but an option for all 2000 pt lists.

If you want to start deleting rules, say no longfangs. That seems to be a giant source of contention between players, so why let them be fielded? Or how about we change up the deep strike mishap table? It's not fair that a unit of mine can be destroyed before it hits the table top. Premeasuring is stupid, why don't we delete that from tourney play, as well?

-cgmckenzie

EDIT-spelling

cgmckenzie wrote:I never said it was about casual play, I said that it is part of the game.

This isn't something that is open for interpretation, it is cut and dry in the rules:I take 2000+ points, I can take a second primary detachment. It isn't an optional thing or specific missions(see some of the later pages about writing scenarios) but an option for all 2000 pt lists.

If you want to start deleting rules, say no longfangs. That seems to be a giant source of contention between players, so why let them be fielded? Or how about we change up the deep strike mishap table? It's not fair that a unit of mine can be destroyed before it hits the table top. Premeasuring is stupid, why don't we delete that from tourney play, as well?

-cgmckenzie

EDIT-spelling

Because it's not just about long fangs. It's about balance. It's not about random dice rolls on a mishap. And as far as 'interpretation', tourneys have always done this, like it or not.

Be it through 'comp' scores or 'sportsmanship' scores, wierd missions or scoring, tourneys HAVE always done this. Unfortunately, in this case, gw is forcing their hands...

Jayden63 wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:
And so what if someone spams 30 long fangs (or whatever). You still get twice the FOC to throw back at them...

But not all things cost equally. 30 missile launcher long fangs is 840 points, leaving you 1160 to spend on other stuff.

No, you don't have 1160 to spend on other stuff.

You have to first buy 2 HQs and 4 Grey Hunter squads.

Thats going to easily eat up half of that 1160. So you really only have about ~500 to spend on other stuff, if you don't increase GH squad size or get upgrades for your 2 HQs and GHs.


A 30 long fang list will pretty much be 30 long fangs. Not scary. Its hidiously unbalanced from a TAC perspective.

Grey Templar wrote:Yeah, so why isn't everyone happy?

The fluffy bunnies can make their fluffy lists and the power gamers can make their power lists. Yay for everybody

This would definitely work if the former didn't have to deal with the latter over the table at their FLGS.

Skriker

Grey Templar wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:
And so what if someone spams 30 long fangs (or whatever). You still get twice the FOC to throw back at them...

But not all things cost equally. 30 missile launcher long fangs is 840 points, leaving you 1160 to spend on other stuff.

No, you don't have 1160 to spend on other stuff.

You have to first buy 2 HQs and 4 Grey Hunter squads.

Thats going to easily eat up half of that 1160. So you really only have about ~500 to spend on other stuff, if you don't increase GH squad size or get upgrades for your 2 HQs and GHs.


A 30 long fang list will pretty much be 30 long fangs. Not scary. Its hidiously unbalanced from a TAC perspective.

No. A 30 lf list will wind up running 38 mls, with 6 scoring units (only 2 of which are gh) and a ton of combi plas, but who is counting? And it's 2 hqs you would have probably taken anways...

There is nothing 'wasted'.

What are the other 4 scoring units praytell?

Show me this 2k list with 30 LFs, 2 minsized GH squads, and 4 mysterious troops. You arn't running Logan and taking Wolf Guard as troops are you?

Grey Templar wrote:What are the other 4 scoring units praytell?

Show me this 2k list with 30 LFs, 2 minsized GH squads, and 4 mysterious troops. You arn't running Logan and taking Wolf Guard as troops are you?

Of course I am running logan. Reroll to hit and glances amd pem? Yes, please.

WG as scoring and cheap combi plas? Even more.

I might drop 4 mls if I think that aegis def lines and another rp would be good.