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I did a search, and all I see are army lists.

So, what's the deal? When you make a list, and label it 1999+1, does that simply mean that you are limiting to 1999pts and accidently go +1 over? So... You're at 2000pts, right?

Now what if someone has a 2000pt even list with double FoC. Does the 1999+1 list refuse to play the guy with 2000, simply because he doesn't want to encounter a double FoC? Is he essentially saying to the person with a 2000pt army "Hey man, sorry but I do not want to play 2000pts.... but do you mind if we play 1999 and I go one over by mistake?"

Is that the point? If not, why don't people just say "This is my 2000pt list. I will not be fighting anyone who has double FoC, and will not be using it myself". If I seem clueless, it's because I am. :]

Thanks!

not sure i use a +1 as my code for i went under points

i usually play at 1850 but most my lists are either 184x +x there x is the amoutn of points i have left. if an opponent says hey I am 4 points over is that cool i'll just throw in an ammo runt or maybe another big choppa for my nob bikers or somethign like that

Yeah I hear ya. It's not just this forum, though. I hear people discussing it here around me and I have no idea why people don't say 2000pts.

It's people who insist that two FOC charts is OP.

Or to put it another way, people who want to deliberately nerf certain armies.
Either way, it's irritating as hell.
You may as well say "Not playing with any Heavy Supports, refuse to play against anyone who does".

Tournaments do the 1999+1pt so there can be 2 FOC used.

Yeah, people who make lists of 1,999+1 are people who want to play large games, but don't want to play two Force Oraganisation Charts.

Idiots, in other words.

I agree, 2 FOCs at 2k is now a standard. I think another trend that is starting is people refusing to play with those who use allies...a rule in the rulebook. Super irritating. It is the new rules and it does not really matter if you disagree with them or not, maybe make it a house rule if you must.

The "1999+1" format is shorthand for tournament organizers who want to run 2,000 point events without allowing two Force Organization charts. Like it or not, it looks to be a fairly standard format for major tournaments in the early days of 6th edition.

Being a Guard player I can just use the 1 FoC all the way up to some thing like 30,00pts (granted having the cash to make a 30,000pts list is insane but the Guard can do it ).
The only time I think I would use 2 FoCs is for when I play a 2,500 to 3,000pts game and even then that would be just for more Sentinel, Hydra, and LRBT squadrons

Testify wrote:It's people who insist that two FOC charts is OP.

Or to put it another way, people who want to deliberately nerf certain armies.
Either way, it's irritating as hell.
You may as well say "Not playing with any Heavy Supports, refuse to play against anyone who does".

Except there is a huge difference from saying "hey, I don't want to use double FoC because I know an IG player with an artillery fetish who will use six Manticores with no ill intent" and saying "I don't want to play with heavy support choices because my army has crappy heavy support choices and it isn't fair." The system is simply so easy to abuse it is funny.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ribon Fox wrote:Being a Guard player I can just use the 1 FoC all the way up to some thing like 30,00pts (granted having the cash to make a 30,000pts list is insane but the Guard can do it ).

As I guard player I would be interested in seeing the absolute maximum point cost for an army we can get using one FoC, just to see. I mean it must be at least 10,000 when you include 6 platoons each with 5 infantry squads, 5 heavy weapon squads, and 2 special weapon squads, all with the most lascannons and plasma gun possible.

Buttons wrote:
Except there is a huge difference from saying "hey, I don't want to use double FoC because I know an IG player with an artillery fetish who will use six Manticores with no ill intent" and saying "I don't want to play with heavy support choices because my army has crappy heavy support choices and it isn't fair." The system is simply so easy to abuse it is funny.

Whereas a necron player taking a billion flyers at 1850 points isn't abusive?
Or a guard player taking 9 Vendettas at 1850.
Etc.

It's a way of saying 2000 pts but only 1 foc

Testify wrote:

Buttons wrote:
Except there is a huge difference from saying "hey, I don't want to use double FoC because I know an IG player with an artillery fetish who will use six Manticores with no ill intent" and saying "I don't want to play with heavy support choices because my army has crappy heavy support choices and it isn't fair." The system is simply so easy to abuse it is funny.

Whereas a necron player taking a billion flyers at 1850 points isn't abusive?
Or a guard player taking 9 Vendettas at 1850.
Etc.

I don't see how that really disproves my point? The whole system is easily abusable. IG at 2000 with 6 manticores, try to get first turn, by turn two all enemy vehicles and 60% of the army is dead because of the new blast rules regarding vehicles. Any remaining points can be spent on IG platoons spamming autocannons (in infantry squads, as well as HWS), use BiD to twin-link the guns for slightly worse than BS 2 against flyers, allowing you to slay them through sheer volume of fire.

The double force org is needed at 2000 for game balance. Not all armies are allowed stuff like vehicle squadrons, and find they run out of slots long before they run out of points to spend.

@Buttons: there was a thread on this forum about a year ago for people to post the most expensive list their codex could possibly make. i think blood angels won.

Kevlar wrote:The double force org is needed at 2000 for game balance. Not all armies are allowed stuff like vehicle squadrons, and find they run out of slots long before they run out of points to spend.

Yes, but it allows armies with vehicle squadrons to abuse the system further. Oh Tau guy, you get six hammerheads because of the expanded FoC? Well I am just taking 12 leman russes in 6 squadrons that can probably glance your tanks to death or wipe out a squad of battlesuits in a single turn of shooting. I agree expanding it might be good, but suddenly doubling it is too much. Perhaps add +1 HQ, Elite, FA, HS, and fortification, as well as +1 minimum troop and +1 optional troop in addition to +1 in each slot for allies at 2000 points, add one more to each slot and 2 to troops every 500 points.

So at 1999 points the FoC is
1-2 HQ
0-3 Elite
2-6 troop
0-3 FA
0-3 HS
0-1 fortifications
1 allied HQ
0-1 allied elite
1-2 allied troops
0-1 allied FA
0-1 allied HS

At 2000 points the FoC would be.
1-3 HQ
0-4 Elite
3-8 troop
0-4 FA
0-4 HS
0-2 fortifications
1-2 allied HQ
0-2 allied elite
2-4 allied troops
0-2 allied FA
0-2 allied HS

At 2500 points to FoC would be.
2-4 HQ
0-5 Elite
4-10 troop
0-5 FA
0-5 HS
0-3 fortifications
1-3 allied HQ
0-3 allied elite
3-6 allied troops
0-3 allied FA
0-3 allied HS

So you get the expanded FOC, but by the time you reach 6 in each slot you are at apocalypse levels anyway.

Thanks, I know the mechanic of allies+duel FoC, but I didn't get this 1999+1 lingo.

I fail to see what the big deal is?

The double FOC is simply a GW sales tactic.

Wether or not something is IN the BRB is irrelevant.

Tournaments will simply eradicate what excess GW as brought into 6E.

Garage Gamers will do the exact same thing.

I can vouch for my little group in that we are introducing 6E rules into our play slowly. We are not fans of double FOCS and Allies really... Both are abusive sales tactics that I personally will not be vernturing into on principle alone. I realize I will be at a disadvantage to other players, but i dont care.

The double FoC isn't a disadvantage to anyone. But it is a buff to some armies, a seriously needed one. The same for allies.

Name one broken combination and I will show you why it actually isn't broken.

I am not a fan of double foc either. It stops being warhammer and becomes spamhammer. Try to.beat 6 manticores and 6 vendetta...

All of my club tourneys this year will be 1999+1 lists for 3 reasons

1) my players will freak out if I trash their pet 2k lists
2) the idea of 6 elites or heavies in an opponent Xs force will cause all types of super whine
3) they'll want to keep those familiar restrictions of 1 FOC while learning new rules

That being said, I'll slowly sell them on the idea, and by January we'll be playing 2 FOCs with no worries.

Thats a codex problem, not a rule problem.

And you could take 6 Vendettas before already.

Not to mention the required 2 HQs and 4 Troops to unlock those 3 extra Manticores. Not as big a deal for Guard but for every other codex that can be a big deal.

There is a difference between 3 two flier squadrons, and 6 independent fliers.

All the duel FOC is, is a heavy handed attempt to sell more models.

Allies are almost fluffy, but can be abused pretty easily.

Grey Templar wrote:The double FoC isn't a disadvantage to anyone. But it is a buff to some armies, a seriously needed one. The same for allies.

Name one broken combination and I will show you why it actually isn't broken.

Space Wolves. Not quite broken, but it's very interesting. 30 ml's for 840pts.

IG. Leman Russ squadrons. Lots of them.

IG. Valk/Vend squadrons. Lots of them.

The problem with boosting other codices with this foc buff, boosted all of the codices.

A lazy solution to poor game design.

edit
All this grief about 1999+1 is ridiculous. TO's do all sorts of wonky stuff. Don't like it. Don't go to that tourney.

imweasel wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:The double FoC isn't a disadvantage to anyone. But it is a buff to some armies, a seriously needed one. The same for allies.

Name one broken combination and I will show you why it actually isn't broken.

Space Wolves. Not quite broken, but it's very interesting. 30 ml's for 840pts.

IG. Leman Russ squadrons. Lots of them.

IG. Valk/Vend squadrons. Lots of them.

The problem with boosting other codices with this foc buff, boosted all of the codices.

A lazy solution to poor game design.

edit
All this grief about 1999+1 is ridiculous. TO's do all sorts of wonky stuff. Don't like it. Don't go to that tourney.

Space Wolves: you are allowed 1 heavy support per allied detachment. So at most you get 2 long fang squads as allies, but only after buying 2 Grey Hunter squads and 2 HQs. I'd like to know what the supposedly main army has in it.

Valks and Vendettas are underpriced, being able to take more of them is not going to be any worse then it was before. Not a problem with double FoC.

At my local GW, an uber neckbeard said it was an optional thing.

Grey Templar wrote:

imweasel wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:The double FoC isn't a disadvantage to anyone. But it is a buff to some armies, a seriously needed one. The same for allies.

Name one broken combination and I will show you why it actually isn't broken.

Space Wolves. Not quite broken, but it's very interesting. 30 ml's for 840pts.

IG. Leman Russ squadrons. Lots of them.

IG. Valk/Vend squadrons. Lots of them.

The problem with boosting other codices with this foc buff, boosted all of the codices.

A lazy solution to poor game design.

edit
All this grief about 1999+1 is ridiculous. TO's do all sorts of wonky stuff. Don't like it. Don't go to that tourney.

Space Wolves: you are allowed 1 heavy support per allied detachment. So at most you get 2 long fang squads as allies, but only after buying 2 Grey Hunter squads and 2 HQs. I'd like to know what the supposedly main army has in it.

Valks and Vendettas are underpriced, being able to take more of them is not going to be any worse then it was before. Not a problem with double FoC.

I fail to see how having twice as many fliers isn't as big a problem as before. And if the FOC doubles the number you can take, its a problem with the FOC.

Space Wolves... 30 Missiles at 12 different targets for 840 points in 2000 point lists.

Yeah, go eat a fat one with that sort of shenanigans. Won't be making friends!

I'd bring 6 Lone Wolves and laugh.

Necrons could bring 2 Doomscythes and 4 Annihlation Barges. Or 6 Annihlation Barges.

It's not a balancing effort except for maybe one army... Tyranids. Potentially Eldar. Most others got a serious buff. It is just a sales ploy. I love allies for fluff wise and it's a great way to slow-grow armies. A small amount is playable while you build a new force. I'm cool with that.

Everyone seems so gung ho about having double force org, I'm still good using the standard, even up to 2500 points. I personally view the double force org thing to be Optional, kinda like Allies and Fortifications, so it's something to be decided on with your opponent or decided by a TO when organizing it.

Grey Templar wrote:
Space Wolves: you are allowed 1 heavy support per allied detachment. So at most you get 2 long fang squads as allies, but only after buying 2 Grey Hunter squads and 2 HQs. I'd like to know what the supposedly main army has in it.

How about...I dunno...space wolves? You know that at 2k points I get 2 FOC's right? I don't NEED allies. That gives me 6 heavy support choices. I can take 38 ml's, logan, a rp, 16 combi-plasma, 6 scoring units (and in 1 out of 6 missions, 12) and a couple of melta guns.

Grey Templar wrote:Valks and Vendettas are underpriced, being able to take more of them is not going to be any worse then it was before. Not a problem with double FoC.

It is the versatility with the extra FOC's that makes it good. I doubt if anyone would take less than 4 vet squads, which you have to take in two FOC's anyways.

Now you can break your squads up any way you want. And leman russ squadrons are going to be good. Couple with the fact you can take 6 heavy support choices in IG is going to be very, very good for IG.


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TheKbob wrote:Space Wolves... 30 Missiles at 12 different targets for 840 points in 2000 point lists.

Yeah, go eat a fat one with that sort of shenanigans. Won't be making friends!

I'd bring 6 Lone Wolves and laugh.

Necrons could bring 2 Doomscythes and 4 Annihlation Barges. Or 6 Annihlation Barges.

It's not a balancing effort except for maybe one army... Tyranids. Potentially Eldar. Most others got a serious buff. It is just a sales ploy. I love allies for fluff wise and it's a great way to slow-grow armies. A small amount is playable while you build a new force. I'm cool with that.

I didn't think this was about making friends. I thought it was about the reasoning behind the 1999+1 lists that seems to have gotten some very sensitive people's panties in a bunch.